Guild Wars 2

…….Seriously sick of how much stronger condi is than power in PvE. I don’t expect balance, but look at the warrior……34k condi dps and 10k power dps from the best power build. That shouldn’t even be acceptable, but yet somehow the devs seem to think it’s hunky dory.

Though condis shouldn’t be stronger than power overall, you’re underselling power here. Power damage still has no ramp up time, so it is better at killing anything less than a champion.

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

I think I beg to differ.

People are going to complain no matter which one is ahead. The reason why it was changed in the first place.

There is no such thing as balance. Even more true when the dev is Anet.
I don’t get why ppl is still complaining. Where have you been for the past 5 years?

Absolutely, I agree that expecting true balance is an unrealistic. However I do not believe expecting power and condition damage to be at least in the same realm of damage with each other is too much to ask. It’s not freakin rocket science to look at a spec like Warrior GS and go “hmmmm that is awful, it should be buffed”. Hell, they’ve already split abilities of PvE and PvP………….but yet they can’t seem to figure out that one damage source should not do 3x the damage of the other.

Vahlen.9508:

…….Seriously sick of how much stronger condi is than power in PvE. I don’t expect balance, but look at the warrior……34k condi dps and 10k power dps from the best power build. That shouldn’t even be acceptable, but yet somehow the devs seem to think it’s hunky dory.

Greatsword was never the best DPS. The only thing it had going for it was easy mightstacking and mightshare.

It just so happens sigil choice and group play make it so other weapons and build choices can shine using that same build limiting trait.

I still think the main issue with power vs condi is not the total capable DPS, it’s the fact that so much of condi’s effectiveness is weighted toward the condition damage attribute, while power builds rely on three separate attributes to be equivalently effective. This means that condition damage builds meet the same benchmarks with much greater ease and flexibility, allowing for better hybridization, defense, support, or maximizing damage. If anything, power builds need more defense and utility, so the opposite should be true.

I also think that conditions in general have proliferated a little too much, and that both condi and condi cleanse dominate the game to the point of absurdity. I think this is why it appears so imbalanced – conditions were originally intended to support direct damage, not replace it.

That’s pretty broken.

Many look at qT benchmarks and fail to see something. These are raid benchmarks. This is for a fight that lasts SEVERAL MINUTES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Something most pve doesn’t see. If you take power into a dungeon, things will die before condi has a chance to build to maxum power, and then when they do, they have to start over again. This is where power shines, if the fight lasts less than 30 seconds, power should be surpreme. If it lasts longer, this is when condi starts to shine.

Also remember, this is with full buffs. Already have all your might and GOTL, everything. Power is in need of help, but not that much. The trade off is that condi is just better for the long haul of damage. Not only that but if you do mechanics for raids, you’re still ticking damage where power would fall flat.

TLDR: power is burst, condi is long drawn out fights.

Einlanzer.1627:

I still think the main issue with power vs condi is not the total capable DPS, it’s the fact that so much of condi’s effectiveness is weighted toward the condition damage attribute, while power builds rely on three separate attributes to be equivalently effective. This means that condition damage builds meet the same benchmarks with much greater ease and flexibility, allowing for better hybridization, defense, support, or maximizing damage. If anything, power builds need more defense and utility, so the opposite should be true.

I also think that conditions in general have proliferated a little too much, and that both condi and condi cleanse dominate the game to the point of absurdity. I think this is why it appears so imbalanced – conditions were originally intended to support direct damage, not replace it.

That’s pretty broken.

You would be wrong. The peak damage that can be accomplished by a condition build is more easily reached. That does not mean it is equivalent to the peak of power damage.

People continue to state the “three stats needed” like it a religion without bothering to examine the real outcome which is just the amount of damage inflicted in a given time period.

As example. I can take a Condition build thief , not traited for power at all and having none of it with the base 4 percent crit rate and on each SINGLE shot of the AA on a p/d condtion build, do more power damage then the single bleed tick gets me.

the bleed tick from that single shot has to tick almost three seconds for the bleed to do as much damage as the single power component of that same build did.

People advancing this meme also ignore the time factor in a condition build versus power.

A simple example. I came across a person who was AFK while I on my condition build. I did not know he AFK, but that not the point. I did my full burst of condtions to get those ticks to start going. That person had enough TIME to come back from his AFK, cleanse, retreat and reset.

Had I been on my power build I would have had done damage in those few seconds he was afk to down him directly, He would not have had TIME to recover. Had I been on a power build with less ferocity and precision, I would have generated damage quicker then that same condtion damage build though total about would have been closer.

The “three stats needed for power” does notT translate to Condition builds doing equivalent damge with only one stat needed. The "Three stats for power " means I have more opportunity in a power build to sacrifice survivability for more damage.

DPS stats moved over from fighting bosses in raids or against Golems do NOT accurately transfer over to PVP and WvW. Those measurements are made against AI over an extrended period of time , with that same AI having many hundreds of thousands of “hit points”.

Saying the class that does the most damage against those bosses is best at delivering damage is akin to saying the best runner of the 26 mile marathon is faster then Usain bolt.

If all you have to run is 100 meters , then it does not matter how fast that Marathon runner can run 26 miles. Usain bolt will beat him to the finish line.

babazhook.6805:

People advancing this meme also ignore the time factor in a condition build versus power.

A simple example. I came across a person who was AFK while I on my condition build. I did not know he AFK, but that not the point. I did my full burst of condtions to get those ticks to start going. That person had enough TIME to come back from his AFK, cleanse, retreat and reset.

Had I been on my power build I would have had done damage in those few seconds he was afk to down him directly, He would not have had TIME to recover. Had I been on a power build with less ferocity and precision, I would have generated damage quicker then that same condtion damage build though total about would have been closer.

I disagree with this statement, and call questions on your tests. Some specs, such as Scrapper, can handle power damage very easily (if anything, they are carried by their passives), while classes like Ele can deal with condi’s very well with an earth/water spec.

If you hit both classes with those respective damage types, I can assure you the other player would have ample time to afk, come back and recover. So doing tests based on builds that are designed to take certain types of damage is kind of bias.

Syktek.7912:

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

I think I beg to differ.

Did you even read the post?
There you see condi warrior at the top, and the power version is so bad it doesn’t even get a spot. He’s obviously not talking about all classes when he says power is a joke. . .Is it that hard to figure that out?

Sorin Noroku.5342:

TLDR: power is burst, condi is long drawn out fights.

Depends on class and builds: as condi Guardian (condi/power/vitality) i can do the same burst or even more than berserker Guard, while having 9k more health Condi guard burst dmg (and sustain) is just insane.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Though condis shouldn’t be stronger than power overall, you’re underselling power here. Power damage still has no ramp up time, so it is better at killing anything less than a champion.

You mean those mobs that evaporate instantly against even a mediocre group?

Sifu.9745:

Depends on class and builds: as condi Guardian (condi/power/vitality) i can do the same burst or even more than berserker Guard, while having 9k more health Condi guard burst dmg (and sustain) is just insane.

I sincerely doubt that a burn guard gets even close to the PoB+SoW+WW combo’s burst damage. It may do a good job for PvP, but that’s another story.

As to the OP, power in general is hardly a joke. For anything that doesn’t live eternally (i.e. several minutes like a raid boss), power usually beats condi even if benchmark numbers are considerably lower. For raids, benchmark numbers could still be closer, but condi should probably always have a slight advantage at the golem, since target changes and such stuff in real encounters are a more of a disadvantage to condi than they are to power.

Substance E.4852:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Though condis shouldn’t be stronger than power overall, you’re underselling power here. Power damage still has no ramp up time, so it is better at killing anything less than a champion.

You mean those mobs that evaporate instantly against even a mediocre group?

They don’t evaporate against condi parties. Trust me, I’ve been on 5 necro parties before, and completing T4 Urban Battleground in one of those is like pulling teeth.

ITT a bunch of people trying to justify bringing their Warrior axe/axe power build into T4 fractals…………gonna kick your ass every time.

This whole “condi should do more damage with time” is a kitten argument. If half of you had any experience past open world bosses, you’d know that only a couple classes can function with power in anything past afk content.

Even from a casual point of view this argument is BS. I spent 4 months weith a project: completely gear a Ranger with viper gear, as I had like, 9 gold and all crafting in 0s. When I finally did it, I noticed how it took forever and a million years to kill ANYTHING, even with ascended gears, whereas I could just run into stuff and maul them with my GS 2. I ended up deleting in favor of a Power Guardian…

This is why I’m all against the release of benchmarks, specially when they’re tested under unrealistic circumstances, HECK, even qtfy accepts they’re unrealistic circumstances! If the people who enters to see the benchmarks has the reading capacity of a mole… There’s a disclaimer that people completely seems to forget about.

“These numbers are the numbers done in a vacuum under almost optimal conditions. Some builds, which are weak on the golem, will be the strongest on certain encounters.”.

The thing with condition damage is that it takes TIME to do the damage it does, it has to ramp up, it can be cleansed, and no, you don’t need one stat to make it work, you also need duration, and not every class is a Berserker or Condi Tempest so not everyone will be using runes to substitute duration, which even then STILL uses Viper Gear.

Plus you’re talking about GS Warr DPS, and GS was always a weapon that makes the noise of a plank AND hits like a plank… it was always pathetic, it was never a DPS weapon, people love it because it makes you a buff bot and has mobility, the fact that it’s an oversize it knife doesn’t makes it anything powerful. Plus look at benchmarks, power Ele and DH are still tops.

Yeah, we don’t enjoy the same class balance other games offer but Power is not useless. That said, get ready for PoF when Griever stats completely replace Berserker tho, but stop following the qtfy benchmarks as a religion and focus on improving your own gameplay and survivability…

Vahlen.9508:

…….Seriously sick of how much stronger condi is than power in PvE. I don’t expect balance, but look at the warrior……34k condi dps and 10k power dps from the best power build. That shouldn’t even be acceptable, but yet somehow the devs seem to think it’s hunky dory.

From PvE standpoint things are fairly balanced. Just cuz GS power warrior is not top dog does not mean things are broken. And honestly, most condi builds have to deal slightly more damage than power in prolonged fights to justify being used to justify the ramp-up time.

For PvP, that is a completely different story..

Einlanzer.1627:

I still think the main issue with power vs condi is not the total capable DPS, it’s the fact that so much of condi’s effectiveness is weighted toward the condition damage attribute, while power builds rely on three separate attributes to be equivalently effective. This means that condition damage builds meet the same benchmarks with much greater ease and flexibility, allowing for better hybridization, defense, support, or maximizing damage. If anything, power builds need more defense and utility, so the opposite should be true.

I also think that conditions in general have proliferated a little too much, and that both condi and condi cleanse dominate the game to the point of absurdity. I think this is why it appears so imbalanced – conditions were originally intended to support direct damage, not replace it.

That’s pretty broken.

Not really. Condi relies on condi duration heavily, so it actually relies on two stats.

Gear acquisition for condi is also way more gated. You can’t get viper accessories through fractals, laurels, or guild missions, so you have to grind the stupid LS3 maps till your eyes bleed for them.

But power builds do need buffs.

Power ranger and necro in particular need serious help, as does Power engineer.

Westenev.5289:

babazhook.6805:

People advancing this meme also ignore the time factor in a condition build versus power.

A simple example. I came across a person who was AFK while I on my condition build. I did not know he AFK, but that not the point. I did my full burst of condtions to get those ticks to start going. That person had enough TIME to come back from his AFK, cleanse, retreat and reset.

Had I been on my power build I would have had done damage in those few seconds he was afk to down him directly, He would not have had TIME to recover. Had I been on a power build with less ferocity and precision, I would have generated damage quicker then that same condtion damage build though total about would have been closer.

I disagree with this statement, and call questions on your tests. Some specs, such as Scrapper, can handle power damage very easily (if anything, they are carried by their passives), while classes like Ele can deal with condi’s very well with an earth/water spec.

If you hit both classes with those respective damage types, I can assure you the other player would have ample time to afk, come back and recover. So doing tests based on builds that are designed to take certain types of damage is kind of bias.

This is a difference in classes. It does not change my point. There are some few classes that have passives that can cleanse conditions as well. I am pointing out that conditions still need to tick over time and still need ramp up time to get those high ticks.

I am not sure where you are calling into questions my tests. I gave a real world example. Are you claiming it did not happen? It was simply an example to reinfocre how had I been on my power build against that same target , I would have generated more damage in that window of time I had..

One more time. Bosses have many hundreds of thousands of hit points. They are akin to running the marathon wherein the Usain Bolts of the world would not win the race to the finish. Players have a fraction of the hit points of a boss and are more akin to 100 meters than 26 miles.

In order to make accurate comparisons between the damage output of builds you can not really translate the experience in a boss fight with that in WvW or PvP. There way too many factors to consider such as those passives, the cleanses, the protection, the invuln the tells and so on.

HOW a condition build gets to those 10k ticks (deemed the power equivalent) is as important as how a power build gets there and it is more then just not needing precision and ferocity. My real WvW scenario showed TIME is one of those other factors as others have tried to point out.

How much of a given builds damage come form its condition or power component EVEN if a strictly a condition or power build also has to be factored in. As example on my power warrior who has ZERO condition damage in his build, when I switch to sword I can easily generate 2k+ ticks from bleeds. In a condition build you can often generate more damage from the power component early in the fight when your condition stacks are not built high enough.

When we do a damage over time calculation you are probably going to have to do use Calculus to get a more accurate understanding of the damage output of conditions versus power.

Now I certainly feel that there certain specific builds that can ramp up that condition damage too quickly . If these types of abilities are on longer cooldowns it manageable. If a condition build can do them with much greater frequency then that needs looking at. These can be addressed on a case by case basis and it my feeling there only a few skills that might be overtuned in this regard.

I do NOT agree in any wau shape or form with making toughness mitigate condtions. It a bad idea and I have already outlined all the reasons I think it so.

babazhook.6805:

DPS stats moved over from fighting bosses in raids or against Golems do NOT accurately transfer over to PVP and WvW. Those measurements are made against AI over an extrended period of time , with that same AI having many hundreds of thousands of “hit points”.

Saying the class that does the most damage against those bosses is best at delivering damage is akin to saying the best runner of the 26 mile marathon is faster then Usain bolt.

If all you have to run is 100 meters , then it does not matter how fast that Marathon runner can run 26 miles. Usain bolt will beat him to the finish line.

This guy gets it, remember all qT benchmarks are for RAIDS they are the maximum damage you can do and HOLD over a VERY LONG period of time!

These are also under best examples, and do not count in dodges and mechanics from raids, which is another reason why condi is favored, as damage still goes on while you’re doing mechanics.

These benchmarks should NOT be considered for anything that last shorter than 130 seconds, as thats typically what it takes to down a 4 million golem with a subpar rotation. As many things in pvp/wvw/pve do not last very long, these benchmarks are a bad example for this.

Power, while needing some love, is not that subpar to condi. Not unless you’re looking at raids. Power is easier to burst in damage and finish the mob then move on.

@sifu.9745 I respect the condi burst guardian, however as it’s a condi ‘burst’ it doesn’t fall into the category I use for condis. Mainly due to how often it’s able to achieve said burst, and how long before that damage falls off/slows down, when compared to other condi builds that keep stacks high for a very long time. If it’s used to kill things that don’t have much hp (say <100k), then I’d put it with power honestly ^-^!

power is still important for any content requiring an instant peak of dmg.

Power warriro can stack dmg pretty quick, even if it doesn’t hit the same cap as condi warrior in the end… On dungeon runs I still bring my PPS warrior due to the short fights not being ample time for my conditions to ramp up on my cPS, allowing me only to go to 25-50% of my maximum dmg I would get in a raid situation and this holds valid when prestacked…

Same for Power ele vs condi ele… Decent rotation on power ele is still unmatched by most other classes…

And again the power /precision/ ferocity vs condi dmg… You should know by now expertise is a very important part. This allows effectively to double stacks over time when at 100 condi duration compared to a 0 expertise build.
Then you also see you need the full running time of original conditions to see the actual DPS brought by the condi builds and 2 times this period when the condi user is running 100% condi duration… Some of my skills on warrior last 20(+) seconds onlkly when the 1st stacks are running on end I’ll have found my max potential , provided I hit everything and am sufficiently booned. 20 seconds… most dungeons fights last 3-15 seconds. this holds true for t1,t2 and even t3 fractals…
So the 3rd thing for condi builds is TIME (DOT: damage over TIME)

over time =/= spike!

For t4 fractals and raids however condi builds will greatly outshine power builds, with dmg still ticking if downed, and having benefit of might fury and other gimmicks whcih will work perfect when having acces to power and condition dmg….

If a power/ condi dmg /precision/ ferocity gets released you’ll notice… power builds will get a litlte buff from the small amount of condi dmg they’ll see, BUT things Like the #5 downed skill will improve greatly.

Also condi weapons scale bad with power
Also power weapons generally do not have much condi’s

Still my sword on thief can hit for 6k dmg… And I can be invulnerable for 6-8 seconds with pistol whip and evades… when fighting normal, vets elites I love my power build.

When fighting champions it turns and I tend to favor condi builds… so it depends on targets, duration of the fight and the circumstances am I alone or with 5 or 10 ppl or with 100 ppl?

some classes can put so many condis almost instantly that condis honestly can burst harder than a lot of power builds.

conditions are broken and need to be reworked. they are better than power in every way possible right now.

Sorin Noroku.5342:

These are also under best examples, and do not count in dodges and mechanics from raids, which is another reason why condi is favored, as damage still goes on while you’re doing mechanics.

Am I missing something important or is this frequently cited argument total nonsense? When dodges/mechanics prevent you from dealing damage, you can’t apply conditions. So while your present conditions will still tick for a while and prevent the sharp dps drop a power build experiences (unless the enemy becomes totally invulnerable, which screws condi builds), your condi build will have a ramp-up time afterwards, while the power build can go full ham as soon as mechanics end.

Vahlen.9508:

…….Seriously sick of how much stronger condi is than power in PvE. I don’t expect balance, but look at the warrior……34k condi dps and 10k power dps from the best power build. That shouldn’t even be acceptable, but yet somehow the devs seem to think it’s hunky dory.

Dh and power thief and dps mesmer and maybe power engi all say hi

Sifu.9745:

Sorin Noroku.5342:

TLDR: power is burst, condi is long drawn out fights.

Depends on class and builds: as condi Guardian (condi/power/vitality) i can do the same burst or even more than berserker Guard, while having 9k more health Condi guard burst dmg (and sustain) is just insane.

Id like to see that.

Syktek.7912:

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

I think I beg to differ.

Precisely.
@OP: Notice how the top dps is a power build? And, in fact, on large hitbox, power builds still reign supreme?

I’d like to say 2 major things

• 1) Condi burst and mitigation:

Most burst builds with condi’s are build on combo’s and finishers.
This sounds nice but the actual conditions are easily avoided (just dodge out and you’ll see the enemy loose out on a lot of stacks…)

Having cleanses (purity / skills/ traits), whirls and finishers, condi returns (generosity, necro staff or offhand dagger) resistance or something like it you should be fine against most condi builds…
Of course some classes still carry skills converting debuffs into buffs. This is never adressed, or considered.

Problem remains: ppl do not want to spec for cleansing, only for damage.

This makes the player directly the imbalanced part with regard to condi builds, not the condi build system.

• 2) Builds rotations and capability of selfsustain and solo DPS valuesas compared to group builds and composition for raids

And I still think you can get the power warrior up to 16-20k… provided you can swap in your build instead of locking yourself in GS.

Power warrior has a lot of things going for it to boost power and condidmg to idiotic heights … Power will still buff 1100 of power and 900 of condi dmg, and this coupled to 25 vulnerability stacks still allows for great dmg, vs condi builds who DO NOT have acces to vulnerability and thus are limited to less dmg UNLESS fighthing in a group providing this stat. Remove 25% of the condition buidls to get solo build values formost condi builds then check wich builds have self might stacking. If they haven’t got this remove it as well. the remove all banners and other stuff and see what a bare build does in PvE. A SOLO VALUE

Solo values are completely passed over by Quantify as it is not needed for their purpose. Solo values should incorporate the modified HP as well.. so a comparision can be made for condi and power survivability. Need for ceratin skills in certain encounters can heavily influence the DPS values attained, so this is as broad as the number of encounters ingame

The Quantify “Meta” builds assume you have:

• 25 might, (warrior(berzerker) / condi ele
• 100% fury uptime, condi ele, theif, warrior , revenant
• 25 vulnerability at all times power berserker, engineer, necro
• banners of discipline and strength: warrior
• alacrity and quickenss at 100% uptime : chronomancer
• stacks of GotL at all times: Druid
• spotter, ranger/druid
• empower allies: warrior
• assassin’s presence: revenant
• pinpointy distribution: engineer
• spirits (flame and frost): ranger

If you can provide all these buffs yourself you can see how interesting the build comparison is based upon QTFY DPS tables. It is only valiud for builds in a maximum buff setting for raids only. Cause sometimes the buffs cannot be stacked together in FACTAL BUILDS as you need -5 buffers- for all buffs (warrior/chrono/ranger/rev and engineer) so a thief/tempest/guardian/necro… cannot expect all these buffs in a 5 man group at all immediatly destroying QTFY’s benchmark list with respect to 5 man group content, AND with this the effect of the meta builds outside raids, so in open PvE, Dungeons, fractals and such.

This said I still believe these builds will perform remarkebly in content outside raids if you can survive the pressure sometimes encountered in the open world. They do have inherent flaws like lack of cleanse or sustain due to the fact these things are provided by other classes in raid situations.

This is not an attack on the validity of Quantify content and benchmarks just a reminder it is made with a goal in mind, which is forgotten in these discussions.

But it does show some things are pulled out of context. It also shows the inability of the present playerbase to distinguish the broadness of the -meta concept- Meta:
recognized:

• 10-man meta, (DPS/DOT/BOON max)(raids)
• 5- man meta, (DPS/DOT max)(dungeons or fractals (is not the same!: dungeons: power, fractals : mix)

Generally not thought about:

• solo meta, (BALANCED)(solo play for instances (solo dungfeons and fractals and solo story builds)
• farm meta (SPEED/SUSTAIN)(SW chest farms, mining meta, XP or karma, exploration)
• open world meta (SUSTAIN) (map-meta & LARGE group meta (min 10+ – 50+))
• healer/support meta (BOONING/HEALING)(Yes you also have tempest auramancer, ventari revenants, Guardian resolve builds, lifetransfer necro’s, boon chrono’s, shout heal builds and such, they are not perfected for DPS but they can be the best buff or heal option for the class. and be vaulable in situation when pure DPS is irrelevant and sustain is mandatory. This can be seen in much greater use in WvW where sustain is nearly allways more potent the pure DPS.

Others outside PvE
recognized:

• PvP meta (PvP)
• WvW Meta (SUSTAIN/Bunker)
• GvG Meta (DPS/sustain)

This is all meta… but a lot isn’t even focussed on DPS or DOT

Everyone has their own and rather loose definition of the word balance.
People complained about conditions being far ahead in terms of raid DPS (apart from tempest), so now we have dragonhunters and daredevils completely outclassing everything else in terms of universal builds.. Meaning that they have both insane opening bursts as well as great sustained DPS over a long fight. No condition build can have both.

Also, where does that 10k Power Warrior DPS number come from? I see numbers around 17-18k frequently in the actual raids and not against the golem like the 34k from the benchmark.

Condition damage is overpowered. 90% of professions playing PvP are condition damage based. Raiding is all about condition damage, high level fractals want condition damage. Everything is about conditions.

Welcome to Condi Wars 2, where you can buy the expansion Path of Burning.

Astralporing.1957:

Syktek.7912:

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

I think I beg to differ.

Precisely.
@OP: Notice how the top dps is a power build? And, in fact, on large hitbox, power builds still reign supreme?

I like how people just ignore this post, and continue to kittening complain.

Alin.2468:

Condition damage is overpowered. 90% of professions playing PvP are condition damage based.

Well, an average pvp player either cleanses at random or has no cleanse at all.

Alin.2468:

Condition damage is overpowered. 90% of professions playing PvP are condition damage based. Raiding is all about condition damage, high level fractals want condition damage. Everything is about conditions.

Welcome to Condi Wars 2, where you can buy the expansion Path of Burning.

Why power builds are at top dps atm then?

Bratec.7136:

Alin.2468:

Condition damage is overpowered. 90% of professions playing PvP are condition damage based. Raiding is all about condition damage, high level fractals want condition damage. Everything is about conditions.

Welcome to Condi Wars 2, where you can buy the expansion Path of Burning.

Why power builds are at top dps atm then?

Because that feedback comes from training dummies and training robots, with no toughness, no evades, and no damage mitigation. Such mitigation does not exist with conditions, because of game concepts and design.

With overpowered conditions there are 2 choices: cleanse or die. That is it.

Alin.2468:

Bratec.7136:

Alin.2468:

Condition damage is overpowered. 90% of professions playing PvP are condition damage based. Raiding is all about condition damage, high level fractals want condition damage. Everything is about conditions.

Welcome to Condi Wars 2, where you can buy the expansion Path of Burning.

Why power builds are at top dps atm then?

Because that feedback comes from training dummies and training robots, with no toughness, no evades, and no damage mitigation. Such mitigation does not exist with conditions, because of game concepts and design.

With overpowered conditions there are 2 choices: cleanse or die. That is it.

You can stack vitality. You can evade and dodge condition attacks. You can use -condi duration food or traits or runes. Then you can cleanse.

Cleanse is part of the mitigation for conditions. So of course sometimes it is cleanse or die. Because conditions are intended to be able to kill you.

Now, independent of how much I feel GW2 handles conditions wrong at a very core design level (way before looking at how much damage they deal), I want to say this:

OP, if you can honestly do 34k DPS with a condi warrior build but not break 10k DPS with a power warrior, then the problem is with you, not the game’s balance. Sorry, but that’s just how it is. I basically outdamage you while buffing the raid as a chrono.

saerni.2584:

Cleanse is part of the mitigation for conditions. So of course sometimes it is cleanse or die. Because conditions are intended to be able to kill you.

Sometimes? You mean always. It’s not like a player has an option to constantly clean conditions that are constantly applied.

For the sake of discussion let’s say I clean them all at once; however I do not get to enjoy the moment much, because in 2 seconds I am full with conditions again, and out of cleanses. I am bound to die from bleeding, burning and poison stacking up fast and killing me fast; I can not attack with cripple and chill on me, not to mention torment or confusion. It’s just so much going on fast: CC + unstoppable damage + just a very small number of cleanses with a lot of sacrifice to for them.

With power there is a passive mitigation to think of (armor, toughness), you can heal, evade, anticipate attacks. With condition there is no great animation showing it (an enemy character moves the hand, and a stack of conditions is applied). It’s impossible to anticipate it.

And then you say: of course sometimes it is cleanse or die… yeah right!

Skills apply conditions. They do t come out of nowhere. You can block, dodge, and even line of sight many condition applying skills (exceptions for unblockable skills).

Cleanse works on a last in first out basis. You might be cleansing the wrong conditions or you might be cleansing before the actually dangerous skills are hitting you. You might be better off using resistance in some cases. In some cases just waiting and healing might be more effective than wasting a cleanse early.

Remember that condi players know you have cleanse. So they will try to bait your first cleanse before really hurting you. Negate their real burst and you will survive much better.

It’s like not wasting your block skill on autoattacks. Yeah, those hurt, but a 8k gunflame hurts a lot more.