Guild Wars 2

I decided I wanted a high precision build and I was getting pretty excited about it until I discovered that every single piece of gear that majors with prec is ALWAYS coupled with condition damage! Condition dmg doesn’t even crit!

This is lame because I play in groups and focusing on condition damage means gimping my build. Why not have crit dmg, toughness or vitality in place of condition dmg??? Please please please add new stat combos soon or at least in a future expansion.

It probably will be introduced in the canthan expansion together with a new profession called the chronomancer

what you are looking for is called “berserker”. Going full Precision in Power build isn’t worthy. As you can see here http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit#Table. Precision without Critical damage and baseline Power will not get you the highest damage output.

And last thing: Conditions can crit in their own way :
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Strikes
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpened_Edges
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Precision
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barbed_Precision
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Earth

A Precision+Condition damage stats mix is actually a good one. Ask the Necros!

There’s sigils, traits and signets that add effects on hit, like bleed, which is why condition armor like that. If you think about it this games a bit too focused on crit chance.

Berzerker armor or Knight armor (tough/power/prec).

Depending on class and traits you really only need 40-50% crit chance, imo. Should add power, crit damage and/or some survival stats after that.

I hit the baddie. The baddie hits me. If the baddie dies first I guess I got a good “build”.

Came to this thread to see what “condition” is. Sigh, another invented name for something that probably doesn’t really work anyway. Is it like anything that isn’t a plain old melee hit? So about 90% of stuff?

I prefer to keep things simple at playtime. Thinking is over-rated after retirement.

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

travosaga.6089:

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

Well actually… That doesn’t even come close to what power builds get out of it, because condition builds lack something comparable to the crit damage stat.
That trait for example is 66% chance to proc, which only works if you actually crit, for 1 whole second of bleed. Given your average attack rate, that is almost unnoticable.
Power builds on the other hand, can get over 100% bonus damage of any given attack if they crit, no strings attached…

Jackums.3496:

wintermute.4096:

travosaga.6089:

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

Well actually… That doesn’t even come close to what power builds get out of it, because condition builds lack something comparable to the crit damage stat.
That trait for example is 66% chance to proc, which only works if you actually crit, for 1 whole second of bleed. Given your average attack rate, that is almost unnoticable.
Power builds on the other hand, can get over 100% bonus damage of any given attack if they crit, no strings attached…

Direct damage doesn’t ignore armour, protection, and invulnerability.

There most certainly are strings attached.

What you’re saying is so… wrong, that I just had to log in and reply. Even if the chance to get the bleeding on a critical hit would be 100%, one second of one stack of bleeding would maybe add around 100 damage to this hit. If your opponent is invulnerable, the hit will not do anything and thus it can also not crit and you get no bleeding on it. Actually, as far as I know, you can not APPLY any conditions on someone who’s invulnerable (at least not with weapon-skills). Those conditions that are already in effect continue to tick, though. However, 1 second is going away almost instantly, so there will not be a single stack of bleeding from this trait while someone’s invulnerable.
Now let’s look at direct damage. Let’s say an attack does 1000 points of damage. If it crits, you get at least 1500 damage (more if you’ve got increased crit-dmg from traits, equip or runes).
That’s a 100% chance for 500 more damage vs a 66% chance for 100 more damage. Of course the direct damage is affected by protection, but it’s not like most mobs/players run around with perma-protection. Also, the chance for bleeding actually requires a specific trait, while the increased direct-damage doesn’t need a trait at all.

The other thing that’s influenced by precision are sigils that have a chance to proc on crit (the one for bleeding is actually much better than the necro minor trait or that ranger MAJOR trait). I’d say in terms of sigils, direct damage and condition damage builds benefit equally from precision; that’s why I didn’t use them in the example above. Except if… uhm… does someone know if the lightning strike from Sigil of Air and the fire blast from Sigil of Fire can crit as well? Because if they can, they would kinda double-benefit from precision.

Generally, I do think that for condition-builds, precision isn’t the way to go if you’re looking to increase your dps; except maybe for Mesmer (because of the “Sharper Images” trait). I assume Necros and Rangers would get a bigger dps-increase from carrion-gear than from rabid-gear. But obviously, damage is not the only thing that matters, so they may also decide to go for precision instead of power (thus, it makes perfect sense that condition damage gear with precision on it exists). But (yes, another “but”) that’s like… trade utility for damage, which isn’t the case for direct-damage builds.

I’m actually okay with that. Just wanted to point out that direct-damage builds usually benefit more from precision than condition builds.

(Off topic: If I could wish for a certain type of equipment, I’d wish for Power/Precision/Toughness (don’t tell me about Knights; I’m talking about power being the major stat)… or would that be considered overpowered o.o).

Animando.7956:

A Precision+Condition damage stats mix is actually a good one. Ask the Necros!

Do you play a Necro? Personally, I find Condition Damage to be under-whelming on Necroes, so I don’t spec for it. The only time I use conditions that damage is if: 1) I use dagger 5 for a little extra damage from the bleed; or 2) while running support in a party, I’ll use staff to drop Mark of Blood on teammates, and occasionally on mobs.

As to the traits… 1 stack of bleed is what, under 100 damage per second if you push the stat? Not something I get excited about.

conditioner mesmer here, i use in fact carrion armor and traited vitality instead of precision.
that way i have more than 20k health a decent direct damage and the condition i stack usually kill the mob slower than a berserker but still effectively. i have no rune that proc on crit.
plus i traited toughness so that 5% of it become condition damage.
it is a so good combination of stat that when i don’t use 5runes of undead+1rune of divinity and go 5 runes of traveler+1rune of pirate i barely note the difference.

As someone who plays both a condition spec’d Ranger and Necro, I really don’t see conditions as totally underpowered. My Ranger’s bleeds tick for over 110 and can keep 10-12+ stacked up. Now I don’t have my necro fully geared yet, but quite a few people I run with have full geared necro’s who can get their conditions up to 12-15 stacks (constant), popping Blood is Power and getting their bleeds to get up to 140-150 a tick with 10 stacks of might. Toss in a guardian running altruistic healing and keeping 5+ stacks of might will really help out a condi class with damage. But, there is problems with how conditions stack in game.

Anymore than 2 condi classes in a group will eventually gimp each other. Having stacks max out at 25, instead of individual stacks can and do hurt groups. Condition duration DR also hurts and plays into this. So while having 1 condi class in a group won’t really hurt a groups damage output, 2 or more can and will probably hurt a groups overall damage output until Arena Net comes up with a change to how conditions from multiple classes stack.

Zookeeper.2513:

Anymore than 2 condi classes in a group will eventually gimp each other. Having stacks max out at 25, instead of individual stacks can and do hurt groups. Condition duration DR also hurts and plays into this. So while having 1 condi class in a group won’t really hurt a groups damage output, 2 or more can and will probably hurt a groups overall damage output until Arena Net comes up with a change to how conditions from multiple classes stack.

Having multiple people able to apply the same conditions weakens the ability to throw huge stacks. A ranger with a shortbow can stack Bleeding pretty high if he can “flank” the enemy, and if there’s someone else there inflicting Bleeding than one of them is winding up not stacking when they could be.

I still think it’s a little better than how GW1 had it, where you could get a max of 10 degeneration pips of regeneration pips, so stacking lots of DoT effects beyond that wasn’t as useful. At least here Bleeding, Poison, Burning can stack well and possibly do better?

Still, I’d only work for Condition Damage if every attack would drop a damaging condition.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

Anymore than 2 condi classes in a group will eventually gimp each other. Having stacks max out at 25, instead of individual stacks can and do hurt groups. Condition duration DR also hurts and plays into this. So while having 1 condi class in a group won’t really hurt a groups damage output, 2 or more can and will probably hurt a groups overall damage output until Arena Net comes up with a change to how conditions from multiple classes stack.

Having multiple people able to apply the same conditions weakens the ability to throw huge stacks. A ranger with a shortbow can stack Bleeding pretty high if he can “flank” the enemy, and if there’s someone else there inflicting Bleeding than one of them is winding up not stacking when they could be.

I still think it’s a little better than how GW1 had it, where you could get a max of 10 degeneration pips of regeneration pips, so stacking lots of DoT effects beyond that wasn’t as useful. At least here Bleeding, Poison, Burning can stack well and possibly do better?

Still, I’d only work for Condition Damage if every attack would drop a damaging condition.

Which is why the stack limit needs to go away. If one class stacks 15 and another gets 13-14, it should either be 2 separate bleeds (which I would prefer…) or it should be 28-29, not 25. Hell, I can constantly get more than the 10-12 stacks up that I mentioned with my Ranger with my build, but that depends on my pet, but with how pets are in dungeons, they usually die off too fast to help keep stacks up. Now I wish they would get rid of that “flanking” requirement for SB bleeds. Although I think some would see that as borderline OP…

There are ways around this.

Try combining berserker + PTV with ruby orbs

You will get a nice mix of power, precision, crit damage, toughness, and vitality. Or you can try knights gear + valkyrie. Same results.

Zookeeper.2513:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

Anymore than 2 condi classes in a group will eventually gimp each other. Having stacks max out at 25, instead of individual stacks can and do hurt groups. Condition duration DR also hurts and plays into this. So while having 1 condi class in a group won’t really hurt a groups damage output, 2 or more can and will probably hurt a groups overall damage output until Arena Net comes up with a change to how conditions from multiple classes stack.

Having multiple people able to apply the same conditions weakens the ability to throw huge stacks. A ranger with a shortbow can stack Bleeding pretty high if he can “flank” the enemy, and if there’s someone else there inflicting Bleeding than one of them is winding up not stacking when they could be.

I still think it’s a little better than how GW1 had it, where you could get a max of 10 degeneration pips of regeneration pips, so stacking lots of DoT effects beyond that wasn’t as useful. At least here Bleeding, Poison, Burning can stack well and possibly do better?

Still, I’d only work for Condition Damage if every attack would drop a damaging condition.

Which is why the stack limit needs to go away. If one class stacks 15 and another gets 13-14, it should either be 2 separate bleeds (which I would prefer…) or it should be 28-29, not 25. Hell, I can constantly get more than the 10-12 stacks up that I mentioned with my Ranger with my build, but that depends on my pet, but with how pets are in dungeons, they usually die off too fast to help keep stacks up. Now I wish they would get rid of that “flanking” requirement for SB bleeds. Although I think some would see that as borderline OP…

I think getting rid of stack limits or allowing multiple stacks if from different sources might break the game and require a big working-over of health pools. Also, how fast would people complain of it being done on them from small armies of weak mobs which still can stack 3 Bleed on them fast?

It’d be a huge overhaul . . . which just as many people would then complain about just as much I’d expect thusly that such a shift would only be done if they thought it was overwhelmingly needed. (I don’t think it is. It kind of sucks, but then I think about “so what if I was on the receiving end?”)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

Anymore than 2 condi classes in a group will eventually gimp each other. Having stacks max out at 25, instead of individual stacks can and do hurt groups. Condition duration DR also hurts and plays into this. So while having 1 condi class in a group won’t really hurt a groups damage output, 2 or more can and will probably hurt a groups overall damage output until Arena Net comes up with a change to how conditions from multiple classes stack.

Having multiple people able to apply the same conditions weakens the ability to throw huge stacks. A ranger with a shortbow can stack Bleeding pretty high if he can “flank” the enemy, and if there’s someone else there inflicting Bleeding than one of them is winding up not stacking when they could be.

I still think it’s a little better than how GW1 had it, where you could get a max of 10 degeneration pips of regeneration pips, so stacking lots of DoT effects beyond that wasn’t as useful. At least here Bleeding, Poison, Burning can stack well and possibly do better?

Still, I’d only work for Condition Damage if every attack would drop a damaging condition.

Which is why the stack limit needs to go away. If one class stacks 15 and another gets 13-14, it should either be 2 separate bleeds (which I would prefer…) or it should be 28-29, not 25. Hell, I can constantly get more than the 10-12 stacks up that I mentioned with my Ranger with my build, but that depends on my pet, but with how pets are in dungeons, they usually die off too fast to help keep stacks up. Now I wish they would get rid of that “flanking” requirement for SB bleeds. Although I think some would see that as borderline OP…

I think getting rid of stack limits or allowing multiple stacks if from different sources might break the game and require a big working-over of health pools. Also, how fast would people complain of it being done on them from small armies of weak mobs which still can stack 3 Bleed on them fast?

It’d be a huge overhaul . . . which just as many people would then complain about just as much I’d expect thusly that such a shift would only be done if they thought it was overwhelmingly needed. (I don’t think it is. It kind of sucks, but then I think about “so what if I was on the receiving end?”)

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

Animando.7956:

what you are looking for is called “berserker”. Going full Precision in Power build isn’t worthy. As you can see here http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit#Table. Precision without Critical damage and baseline Power will not get you the highest damage output.

And last thing: Conditions can crit in their own way :
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Strikes
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpened_Edges
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Precision
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barbed_Precision
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Earth

A Precision+Condition damage stats mix is actually a good one. Ask the Necros!

For engis this isn’t bad either I have a mix of prec condi spec and gear it gives me the ability to take everything down because toughness does nothing vs condi damage.

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

Maybe, but I think that just points to the whole zerg tactic problem in WvW. Again, even with that, the amount passive, active, and combo field condition removal would probably help negate some of that. You do have a point though that Anet would need to be careful on how Condi damage fixes would apply to all aspects of the game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

Anymore than 2 condi classes in a group will eventually gimp each other. Having stacks max out at 25, instead of individual stacks can and do hurt groups. Condition duration DR also hurts and plays into this. So while having 1 condi class in a group won’t really hurt a groups damage output, 2 or more can and will probably hurt a groups overall damage output until Arena Net comes up with a change to how conditions from multiple classes stack.

Having multiple people able to apply the same conditions weakens the ability to throw huge stacks. A ranger with a shortbow can stack Bleeding pretty high if he can “flank” the enemy, and if there’s someone else there inflicting Bleeding than one of them is winding up not stacking when they could be.

I still think it’s a little better than how GW1 had it, where you could get a max of 10 degeneration pips of regeneration pips, so stacking lots of DoT effects beyond that wasn’t as useful. At least here Bleeding, Poison, Burning can stack well and possibly do better?

Still, I’d only work for Condition Damage if every attack would drop a damaging condition.

Which is why the stack limit needs to go away. If one class stacks 15 and another gets 13-14, it should either be 2 separate bleeds (which I would prefer…) or it should be 28-29, not 25. Hell, I can constantly get more than the 10-12 stacks up that I mentioned with my Ranger with my build, but that depends on my pet, but with how pets are in dungeons, they usually die off too fast to help keep stacks up. Now I wish they would get rid of that “flanking” requirement for SB bleeds. Although I think some would see that as borderline OP…

I think getting rid of stack limits or allowing multiple stacks if from different sources might break the game and require a big working-over of health pools. Also, how fast would people complain of it being done on them from small armies of weak mobs which still can stack 3 Bleed on them fast?

It’d be a huge overhaul . . . which just as many people would then complain about just as much I’d expect thusly that such a shift would only be done if they thought it was overwhelmingly needed. (I don’t think it is. It kind of sucks, but then I think about “so what if I was on the receiving end?”)

It wouldn’t change a thing because then condition damage would be just like Direct damage. If everyone went direct damage the mobs/bosses/players would die just as quick if not quicker than there being no condition caps. In fact poisons and burns also need to stack in intensity.

Direct damage is currently better in probably 90% of situations. Perhaps if you’re fighting a high armor target with protection on and no condition removal, condition damage is better, but for everything else direct damage is better. The fact that people with condition damage almost have to stack precision to get another condition is just bad mechanics. There should be “on condition tick” sigils that have a chance on tick to proc another condition. Why ArenaNet is so focused on crit boggles my mind. Think outside the box! On hit sigils, On heal, On dodge, On stealth, on Block, On evade, etc. ArenaNet has had plenty of room to expand but they’ve kept most of the decent sigil effects in the on crit area.

I wouldn’t call condition dmg weak, but gimped somewhat where there is more than one person placing conditions.

Damage wise, when I use my carrion armor and condition trinkets, i easely hit 130 a tick on my sword and shield warrior. Utilising my buffs and debuffs, ive seen it go into the 150s. Add to the fact I can place 20 stacks of that rather fast, thats a decent amount of dot on the target.

However, when playing with others this is kinda useless, as the hardcap is 25 and I need to compete with everyone in terms of putting them on whatever we are hitting on.

I wont compete with a direct damage crit build, but at least if i get disabled or have to back off during the fight, my damage stil stays on and keeps ticking for a while.

Jackums.3496:

Direct damage doesn’t ignore armour, protection, and invulnerability.

There most certainly are strings attached.

And here kids is an example of cleverly omitting important information.

It’s true condition damage isn’t mitigated by armor, however health certainly does the trick since condition scaling is negligible compared to health scaling. And the way armor is calculated in this game makes it to where stacking armor past your health yields no reasonable return. So anybody who has high armor, assuming they actually know how to build, has high health as well. And those who don’t, would be better fought with a power build. There is no good build against which condition damage is better than power.

Condition Damage isn’t affected by Protection, it also doesn’t scale with Might or Vulnerability, which means you are immune to a 33% damage reduction only to lose out on a 100% damage increase. Additionally, conditions are countered by aegis and can be reflected or blocked.

And you CANNOT stack new conditions on someone with invulnerability or evasion, existing conditions will continue ticking but new ones cannot be applied.

wintermute.4096:

travosaga.6089:

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

Well actually… That doesn’t even come close to what power builds get out of it, because condition builds lack something comparable to the crit damage stat.
That trait for example is 66% chance to proc, which only works if you actually crit, for 1 whole second of bleed. Given your average attack rate, that is almost unnoticable.
Power builds on the other hand, can get over 100% bonus damage of any given attack if they crit, no strings attached…

Yes we do actually, its called condition duration. You can currently stack 100% duration on bleed, burn, & poison. Once Giver’s weapon stats work all conditions will have 100% applied. This is the highest total condition damage you can do, but its intensity is not as strong.

Jackums.3496:

And here, kids, is someone who assumes and overreacts on the internet.

I made a simple statement. There are benefits of condi > direct. Period. Did I say condition damage was superior? No. Did I say condition damage is balanced? No. Did I say condition damage could not do with some changes/buffs? No.

Learn to read posts before attacking. Thanks.

Well that would be great, if you had actually stated such, which anybody can see you did not. You made a statement heavily slanting an argument, while leaving out counterarguments which greatly outweighed the gravity of your collective points. And I edited my post accordingly before you even posted, though not in time apparently.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

Why would a zerg run DoTs that are (primarily) single target and do less overall damage than pure damage? Not to mention group cleansing (guardians, mesmers, and necros come to mind), along with self cleansing, actually prevents a good chunk of the zerg’s already lower damage output…

Until we get the AoE nerfs, “condition zergs” won’t be a thing, even if they changed the stack limit.

Richard Nixon.6573:

Why would a zerg run DoTs that are (primarily) single target and do less overall damage than pure damage? Not to mention group cleansing (guardians, mesmers, and necros come to mind), along with self cleansing, actually prevents a good chunk of the zerg’s already lower damage output…

Until we get the AoE nerfs, “condition zergs” won’t be a thing, even if they changed the stack limit.

Why would a zerg run it? Because there’s not a Commander in sight and someone thought it’d be a fantastic idea? By the way, I have exactly one self-cleansing skill (Signet of Renewal) and once I use it, it’s down for a while.

Also, I wouldn’t underestimate people doing really strange things, Remember how the mesmer portal got used,

Conncept.7638:

Jackums.3496:

Direct damage doesn’t ignore armour, protection, and invulnerability.

There most certainly are strings attached.

And here kids is an example of cleverly omitting important information.

It’s true condition damage isn’t mitigated by armor, however health certainly does the trick since condition scaling is negligible compared to health scaling. And the way armor is calculated in this game makes it to where stacking armor past your health yields no reasonable return. So anybody who has high armor, assuming they actually know how to build, has high health as well. And those who don’t, would be better fought with a power build. There is no good build against which condition damage is better than power.

Condition Damage isn’t affected by Protection, it also doesn’t scale with Might or Vulnerability, which means you are immune to a 33% damage reduction only to lose out on a 100% damage increase. Additionally, conditions are countered by aegis and can be reflected or blocked.

And you CANNOT stack new conditions on someone with invulnerability or evasion, existing conditions will continue ticking but new ones cannot be applied.

You should read the tooltip about the boon “Might” again. It scales both power and condition damage.

Also…. conditions cannot be blocked by aegis, reflected or blocked with blocking skills…. the SKILLS that cause conditions can be countered. And those same situations block direct damage skills in exactly the same way. Also, it can be noted that there are some traits that can make skills unblockable. Such as “Greater Marks” for the necro… which affects the staff, a condition damage weapon.

While it is true that you cannot stack new conditions during invulnerability, evasion, during countering moves, or with aegis up… neither can direct damage damage attacks be landed. However conditions will continue ticking. Your point about it only lasting 1 second is moot, because condition duration can be extended and not all sources of conditions have the same duration to begin with. That fact is, that once the condition is applied it will continue to do its job until it has expired or been cleared.

This is not an argument for the superiority of conditions, merely pointing out to you that if you are going to correct someone… take the time to be correct.

bluewanders.5297:

While it is true that you cannot stack new conditions during invulnerability, evasion, during countering moves, or with aegis up… neither can direct damage damage attacks be landed. However conditions will continue ticking.

Conditions applied by previous attacks, which already would have done the (higher) damage if it was a direct damage attack instead of condition damage.
Really that’s only relevant when dealing with automatic defenses that trigger at health levels, such as Self-Regulating Defenses, since direct damage would be halted at 25% while the condition damage will keep going from the attacks prior to it.

Saturn.6591:

Jackums.3496:

wintermute.4096:

travosaga.6089:

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

Well actually… That doesn’t even come close to what power builds get out of it, because condition builds lack something comparable to the crit damage stat.
That trait for example is 66% chance to proc, which only works if you actually crit, for 1 whole second of bleed. Given your average attack rate, that is almost unnoticable.
Power builds on the other hand, can get over 100% bonus damage of any given attack if they crit, no strings attached…

Direct damage doesn’t ignore armour, protection, and invulnerability.

There most certainly are strings attached.

What you’re saying is so… wrong, that I just had to log in and reply. Even if the chance to get the bleeding on a critical hit would be 100%, one second of one stack of bleeding would maybe add around 100 damage to this hit. If your opponent is invulnerable, the hit will not do anything and thus it can also not crit and you get no bleeding on it. Actually, as far as I know, you can not APPLY any conditions on someone who’s invulnerable (at least not with weapon-skills). Those conditions that are already in effect continue to tick, though. However, 1 second is going away almost instantly, so there will not be a single stack of bleeding from this trait while someone’s invulnerable.

sorry, but this is absolutly wrong, i must comment. conditions can be applied no matter what buff you have on, take a look at riteous indignation for one. people kill the supply camp lord with conditions while he has his buff up. if you can deal out a good bit of base dmg and still put on loads of conditions you can get them low enough and run away while conditions finish the job. in pvp conditions can down your opponetn while your down, so you can turn the tables and kil them! now tell me conditions arent good. i dare you.

My Dead Characters.9517:

Saturn.6591:

Jackums.3496:

wintermute.4096:

travosaga.6089:

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

Well actually… That doesn’t even come close to what power builds get out of it, because condition builds lack something comparable to the crit damage stat.
That trait for example is 66% chance to proc, which only works if you actually crit, for 1 whole second of bleed. Given your average attack rate, that is almost unnoticable.
Power builds on the other hand, can get over 100% bonus damage of any given attack if they crit, no strings attached…

Direct damage doesn’t ignore armour, protection, and invulnerability.

There most certainly are strings attached.

What you’re saying is so… wrong, that I just had to log in and reply. Even if the chance to get the bleeding on a critical hit would be 100%, one second of one stack of bleeding would maybe add around 100 damage to this hit. If your opponent is invulnerable, the hit will not do anything and thus it can also not crit and you get no bleeding on it. Actually, as far as I know, you can not APPLY any conditions on someone who’s invulnerable (at least not with weapon-skills). Those conditions that are already in effect continue to tick, though. However, 1 second is going away almost instantly, so there will not be a single stack of bleeding from this trait while someone’s invulnerable.

sorry, but this is absolutly wrong, i must comment. conditions can be applied no matter what buff you have on, take a look at riteous indignation for one. people kill the supply camp lord with conditions while he has his buff up. if you can deal out a good bit of base dmg and still put on loads of conditions you can get them low enough and run away while conditions finish the job. in pvp conditions can down your opponetn while your down, so you can turn the tables and kil them! now tell me conditions arent good. i dare you.

Actually, no, they can’t be applied when you can’t hit the target. If they’re using an evade or block move then you can’t apply them because you have to actually hit them. Righteous Indignation doesn’t keep you from hitting them, it just insanely reduces damage and condition duration on them.
And if you were direct damage you could’ve killed them in that same number of hits without having to run away at all.
And direct would have downed that person before you got downed at all, which gives you even more of an advantage.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

What is the big deal about dying from 100 stacks as opposed to 100 crit/power projectiles?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

My Dead Characters.9517:

Saturn.6591:

Jackums.3496:

wintermute.4096:

travosaga.6089:

These stats work with a necro who will have the train that gives a 66% chance to apply a bleed on crit. It’s perfect actually. More chance to crit which means greater chance to apply additional bleeds which do more damage from the condition damage. I guess it depends on your class.

Well actually… That doesn’t even come close to what power builds get out of it, because condition builds lack something comparable to the crit damage stat.
That trait for example is 66% chance to proc, which only works if you actually crit, for 1 whole second of bleed. Given your average attack rate, that is almost unnoticable.
Power builds on the other hand, can get over 100% bonus damage of any given attack if they crit, no strings attached…

Direct damage doesn’t ignore armour, protection, and invulnerability.

There most certainly are strings attached.

What you’re saying is so… wrong, that I just had to log in and reply. Even if the chance to get the bleeding on a critical hit would be 100%, one second of one stack of bleeding would maybe add around 100 damage to this hit. If your opponent is invulnerable, the hit will not do anything and thus it can also not crit and you get no bleeding on it. Actually, as far as I know, you can not APPLY any conditions on someone who’s invulnerable (at least not with weapon-skills). Those conditions that are already in effect continue to tick, though. However, 1 second is going away almost instantly, so there will not be a single stack of bleeding from this trait while someone’s invulnerable.

sorry, but this is absolutly wrong, i must comment. conditions can be applied no matter what buff you have on, take a look at riteous indignation for one. people kill the supply camp lord with conditions while he has his buff up. if you can deal out a good bit of base dmg and still put on loads of conditions you can get them low enough and run away while conditions finish the job. in pvp conditions can down your opponetn while your down, so you can turn the tables and kil them! now tell me conditions arent good. i dare you.

Actually, no, they can’t be applied when you can’t hit the target. If they’re using an evade or block move then you can’t apply them because you have to actually hit them. Righteous Indignation doesn’t keep you from hitting them, it just insanely reduces damage and condition duration on them.
And if you were direct damage you could’ve killed them in that same number of hits without having to run away at all.
And direct would have downed that person before you got downed at all, which gives you even more of an advantage.

apparently i play too much wvw, cause the main invulnerability i deal with is riteous indignation, i dont typically notice other invulnerability buffs, sorry bout that.

Beorn Saxon.4762:

I decided I wanted a high precision build and I was getting pretty excited about it until I discovered that every single piece of gear that majors with prec is ALWAYS coupled with condition damage! Condition dmg doesn’t even crit!

This is lame because I play in groups and focusing on condition damage means gimping my build. Why not have crit dmg, toughness or vitality in place of condition dmg??? Please please please add new stat combos soon or at least in a future expansion.

Knights: Toughness/Precision/Power
Berserkers: Power/Precision/Critical Damage

Yeah Righteous Indignation isn’t true invulnerability. It’s more like Endure Pain that also helps against conditions.
True invulnerability buffs (like, for instance, the actual invulnerability buff that you encounter now and then) outright prevent you from hitting them. Block and Evade are very close to that, though there are some things that ignore them (like traited Marks).

My Dead Characters.9517:

Saturn.6591:

What you’re saying is so… wrong, that I just had to log in and reply. Even if the chance to get the bleeding on a critical hit would be 100%, one second of one stack of bleeding would maybe add around 100 damage to this hit. If your opponent is invulnerable, the hit will not do anything and thus it can also not crit and you get no bleeding on it. Actually, as far as I know, you can not APPLY any conditions on someone who’s invulnerable (at least not with weapon-skills). Those conditions that are already in effect continue to tick, though. However, 1 second is going away almost instantly, so there will not be a single stack of bleeding from this trait while someone’s invulnerable.

sorry, but this is absolutly wrong, i must comment. conditions can be applied no matter what buff you have on, take a look at riteous indignation for one. people kill the supply camp lord with conditions while he has his buff up. if you can deal out a good bit of base dmg and still put on loads of conditions you can get them low enough and run away while conditions finish the job. in pvp conditions can down your opponetn while your down, so you can turn the tables and kil them! now tell me conditions arent good. i dare you.

1. I’ve never said conditions aren’t good. I just pointed out that direct damage benefits much more from precision than conditions do.

2. You’re wrong. Well, at least partwise. According to the wiki, the buff makes invulnerable, but I’m not sure if it’s the same kind of invulnerability that players can get. Also, " you can get them low enough and run away while conditions finish the job" is completely wrong. I come to think you’ve never actually capped a supply camp while the NPC had this buff. Even if 10! people attack the NPC together, he’d barely ever get more than 2-3 stacks of bleeding at once; simply because they get removed almost instantly. He does get damage, yes. But not a lot, unless you are like 20+ players attacking. And even if the NPC would be at 1/10 health, you could not just run away… he’d survive and eventually heal up to full health. There’s no way to get high stacks of any condition while the buff is active.

Edit: Someone was faster.~~

Many classes like Necro or Warrior have traits that give a chance to apply bleed on crit so they would benefit a lot more from precision than power.
Sigil of Earth’s bleed application depends on crit too.

bluewanders.5297:

You should read the tooltip about the boon “Might” again. It scales both power and condition damage.

Also…. conditions cannot be blocked by aegis, reflected or blocked with blocking skills…. the SKILLS that cause conditions can be countered. And those same situations block direct damage skills in exactly the same way. Also, it can be noted that there are some traits that can make skills unblockable. Such as “Greater Marks” for the necro… which affects the staff, a condition damage weapon.

While it is true that you cannot stack new conditions during invulnerability, evasion, during countering moves, or with aegis up… neither can direct damage damage attacks be landed. However conditions will continue ticking. Your point about it only lasting 1 second is moot, because condition duration can be extended and not all sources of conditions have the same duration to begin with. That fact is, that once the condition is applied it will continue to do its job until it has expired or been cleared.

This is not an argument for the superiority of conditions, merely pointing out to you that if you are going to correct someone… take the time to be correct.

Oh, a tooltip! Why didn’t I think of that? Tooltips are, after all, so very reliable in GW2…

Last I checked, which I admit was some time ago, the tooltip was incorrect and might was not increasing Condition Damage. I would love if that has been fixed by now, but I haven’t ever seen anything in the patch notes which says so and I haven’t bothered to check, have you checked or are you just assuming it’s working correctly?

Uh, yeah that’s exactly what I said. Using a skill which would apply conditions during a block, while using reflection, evasion, or invulnerability will cause the conditions not to be applied. However, except in the case of invulnerability, existing conditions will continue to deal damage. Kind of like I already said… learn to read.

And conditions can be reflected, I run a scepter build, people and mobs reflect my stone shards all the time and I do get hit with the bleeds. If the projectile which applies the condition is reflected, the condition is reflected. Conditions are not affected by retaliation, and I never said they were. Those two abilites are not the same, do some kitten research before you open your mouth.

Conncept.7638:

bluewanders.5297:

You should read the tooltip about the boon “Might” again. It scales both power and condition damage.

Also…. conditions cannot be blocked by aegis, reflected or blocked with blocking skills…. the SKILLS that cause conditions can be countered. And those same situations block direct damage skills in exactly the same way. Also, it can be noted that there are some traits that can make skills unblockable. Such as “Greater Marks” for the necro… which affects the staff, a condition damage weapon.

While it is true that you cannot stack new conditions during invulnerability, evasion, during countering moves, or with aegis up… neither can direct damage damage attacks be landed. However conditions will continue ticking. Your point about it only lasting 1 second is moot, because condition duration can be extended and not all sources of conditions have the same duration to begin with. That fact is, that once the condition is applied it will continue to do its job until it has expired or been cleared.

This is not an argument for the superiority of conditions, merely pointing out to you that if you are going to correct someone… take the time to be correct.

Oh, a tooltip! Why didn’t I think of that? Tooltips are, after all, so very reliable in GW2…

Last I checked, which I admit was some time ago, the tooltip was incorrect and might was not increasing Condition Damage. I would love if that has been fixed by now, but I haven’t ever seen anything in the patch notes which says so and I haven’t bothered to check, have you checked or are you just assuming it’s working correctly?

Uh, yeah that’s exactly what I said. Using a skill which would apply conditions during a block, while using reflection, evasion, or invulnerability will cause the conditions not to be applied. However, except in the case of invulnerability, existing conditions will continue to deal damage. Kind of like I already said… learn to read.

And conditions can be reflected, I run a scepter build, people and mobs reflect my stone shards all the time and I do get hit with the bleeds. If the projectile which applies the condition is reflected, the condition is reflected. Conditions are not affected by retaliation, and I never said they were. Those two abilites are not the same, do some kitten research before you open your mouth.

It seems your reading comprehension is a little lacking.

Might most definitely affects both power and condition damage. If you can’t bring yourself to believe both in-game descriptions of the skill and extra-game descriptions of the skill… you can always actually use it and see for yourself.

Here is a hint for an ezmode way… go with a mesmer into the underwater fractal… stack some bleeds on the jelly beast and see what they do each tic… then have him steal the 25 stacks of might from the jelly beast and pass it to you… then stack some new conditions once again and observe the difference.

I’m sure you are probably creative enough to conduct some similar test in any way you prefer.

What you said and what I said were similar… but not the same… you intoned that condition damage was inferior to direct damage due to blocks and reflects… when in fact both of them are affected in exactly the same way. The only difference is that conditions continue to tic.

And conditions CANNOT be reflected… the skills that inflict those conditions can… if the skill is reflected then it and all its accompanying effects are inflicted on the new target. The distinction is very important. SKILLS ARE REFLECTED AND BLOCKED… conditions caused by those skills are not, they are simply applied to the new target or not at all (in the case of a block or invuln in which the skill does not actuate.)

I didn’t mention retaliation… you don’t reed so gud.

Again… if you are going to be pedantic… try to be correctly pedantic.

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

What is the big deal about dying from 100 stacks as opposed to 100 crit/power projectiles?

You can’t “evade” damage from stacks, mostly. Since this isn’t an actual thing going on and I’m not in a position to run tests? I can’t say other than to speculate weakly. WvW is not a huge strength but I’ve seen Damage over Time effects with more unrestricted stacking rules cause problems in the past.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

What is the big deal about dying from 100 stacks as opposed to 100 crit/power projectiles?

You can’t “evade” damage from stacks, mostly. Since this isn’t an actual thing going on and I’m not in a position to run tests? I can’t say other than to speculate weakly. WvW is not a huge strength but I’ve seen Damage over Time effects with more unrestricted stacking rules cause problems in the past.

Your argument has some merit… and is one reason my wvw skills might be better seperated from PVE… because players don’t have the same monolithic health pools that mobs have, which is what negates some builds… or possibly just removing or increasing the condition cap in pve but retaining it in wvw.

I would imagine part of the reason Precision gets paired with Condition Damage is the fairly large number of on-crit condition effects from both sigils and traits. Bleed on crit, burn on crit, ect.

bluewanders.5297:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

What is the big deal about dying from 100 stacks as opposed to 100 crit/power projectiles?

You can’t “evade” damage from stacks, mostly. Since this isn’t an actual thing going on and I’m not in a position to run tests? I can’t say other than to speculate weakly. WvW is not a huge strength but I’ve seen Damage over Time effects with more unrestricted stacking rules cause problems in the past.

Your argument has some merit… and is one reason my wvw skills might be better seperated from PVE… because players don’t have the same monolithic health pools that mobs have, which is what negates some builds… or possibly just removing or increasing the condition cap in pve but retaining it in wvw.

I could agree to that, though the effect from that change probably would cause mobs to have more health overall since people would burn through it with stacks faster . . . meaning you might see it becoming the only viable way to take down a single Legendary/Champion mob.

PVP is a slipper slope if you want to go in and change the way bleeds and other conditions stack. Most rational condition users don’t have any issues with the stack limit in PVP, they have issues with the massively abundant clears and aoe clears of conditions that occur when 20 people stack up.

The limit to the bleed cap causes horrible issues in PVE, the one place where you could independently balance conditions if you wanted to, but they have shown no interest in doing so. All these points about, “well what about a boss with 125 stacks of bleeding!!elevendy1!” are just silly. Does anyone actually watch coordinate DPS videos, where everyone auto attacks are hitting for 3K? and their burst skills are over 10k?

If you have a team of 5 condition based heros that can manage to stack 20 bleeds each, and you have a mob bleeding times 100, and lets just pretend they have maxed condition damage so they are doing roughly 150 per stack (with 10 times might each to get there). That would be 15000 damage per second from 5 people.

Sounds a lot like the kind of DPS a well coordinated group of players stacking might and vulnerability could put out. And honestly if it was an issue that cap could be moved from 25 to 50, or 25 to 75, or some comfortable place OTHER than 25, where incidental bleeds from non-condition heros push off bleeds from condition based heros constantly.

If you didn’t know, there is no system in place to prioritize bleed damage. New bleeds just push off older bleeds, so my condition build that deals 150 per bleed right now, gets pushed off by my zerker mesmer friend clones that bleed for 50 per tick once we hit 25 stacks.

Stop punishing condition builds and at least throw them a bone.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

bluewanders.5297:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zookeeper.2513:

I can see the health pool issue in PvE (mainly world event bosses) but I don’t think it would have much affect in dungeons or WvW. In dungeons, it would help multiple condi classes in a 5 man keep up with the non-condi, serker (while not cancelling each other out) builds that people are running. In WvW/sPvP I don’t think it would have an over reaching affect as the amount of passive and active condi removal is insane as it is now. I definitely believe your point on a shift, but I don’t think it would be completely overwhelming.

. . . I think it could have a huge impact in WvW if combined with zerg tactics. And if each person got their own 25 Stacks of Bleed/Poison/Burn? Condition-damage zergs might become a “thing”.

What is the big deal about dying from 100 stacks as opposed to 100 crit/power projectiles?

You can’t “evade” damage from stacks, mostly. Since this isn’t an actual thing going on and I’m not in a position to run tests? I can’t say other than to speculate weakly. WvW is not a huge strength but I’ve seen Damage over Time effects with more unrestricted stacking rules cause problems in the past.

Your argument has some merit… and is one reason my wvw skills might be better seperated from PVE… because players don’t have the same monolithic health pools that mobs have, which is what negates some builds… or possibly just removing or increasing the condition cap in pve but retaining it in wvw.

I could agree to that, though the effect from that change probably would cause mobs to have more health overall since people would burn through it with stacks faster . . . meaning you might see it becoming the only viable way to take down a single Legendary/Champion mob.

Groups of zerker warriors already burn through legendary mobs in under 1-2 minutes… there are videos of that on youtuve.

Either tone down direct damage… or make it a level playing field where specialists in another type of damage can accomplish the same thing.

bluewanders.5297:

Groups of zerker warriors already burn through legendary mobs in under 1-2 minutes… there are videos of that on youtuve.

Either tone down direct damage… or make it a level playing field where specialists in another type of damage can accomplish the same thing.

This I’m not aware of, I’ve stayed clear of watching “speed clears/kills” since I saw one where Urgoz’s Warren was cleared in less than half an hour by using a couple odd glitches. (Or if you prefer, watching someone do Morrowind in less than 15 minutes by abusing the living crap out of alchemy.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

bluewanders.5297:

Groups of zerker warriors already burn through legendary mobs in under 1-2 minutes… there are videos of that on youtuve.

Either tone down direct damage… or make it a level playing field where specialists in another type of damage can accomplish the same thing.

This I’m not aware of, I’ve stayed clear of watching “speed clears/kills” since I saw one where Urgoz’s Warren was cleared in less than half an hour by using a couple odd glitches. (Or if you prefer, watching someone do Morrowind in less than 15 minutes by abusing the living crap out of alchemy.)

There may be some glitching involved in some speed runs… but that is not what I am talking about… I am talking about specifically groups of 5 zerker warriors, or 4 and 1 mesmer who basically acts a as a time warp turret that they carry around with them… melee at legendary dungeon boss down from 100% to 0% in under 2 minutes.

If this is acceptable, then people who are specialized to the extreme in condition damage should be able to accomplish the same. However, they cannot… due to condition caps and just general immunities of all kinds that direct damage types don’t even need to consider.

Add more mechanics to level the playing field… or balance things out some other way.

But those warriors are one trick ponies, place them in any other encounter and they are lackluster or DoA.

It’s not overly hard as a necro to stack 18-20 bleeds solo and keep them rolling. It just takes the right amount of crit chance and on crit effects from sigils and traits. With my own necros stats its around 2300 dps just counting the bleeds. And most of those bleeds last a minimum of 8 seconds.

People often underestimate necros in WvW, but once those bleeds are rolling you will take heavy damage that you cant avoid, unless you remove them. But a good necro will weave in other conditions too in the process so its harder to remove the damaging ones.

As a Mesmer, I like Precision and Condition Dmg (Rampager or Rabid stats). All because of Sharper Images.

Sharper Images: An Illusion Crits, it places a 5s Bleed on a target (100% of the time).

Combine that with Phantasmal Fury and any multi-attack Phantasm (Especially Warden (12x) or Duelist (8x)) with a high natural crit chance, and you’ll be stacking bleeds quite easily. Even if you really don’t deal out Conditions naturally yourself unless you use a staff. Then throw in Staff/G.Sword/MH-Sword Clones which either innately drops conditions, multi-attacks, or hits up to three targets frontal AoE and the Precision + Condition Dmg is rather nice. It won’t make up completely for the loss of Crit Dmg and Power, but being able to still damage a target with CLONES while waiting on CDs/Dodging/LoSing a target is always a nice benefit. Tack on Debilitating Dissipation, and you’ve got a chance at an AoE 3x Bleed (5s) stack AoE when someone kills said clones as well.

(At the same time, I generally don’t care about Condition Duration increases UNLESS I’m going the Confusion route. Thats because Illusions don’t benefit from Condition Duration due to being bugged >.>)

bluewanders.5297:

It seems your reading comprehension is a little lacking.

Yes, a person who reposts exactly what he’s quoting would be the authority on that.

bluewanders.5297:

Might most definitely affects both power and condition damage. If you can’t bring yourself to believe both in-game descriptions of the skill and extra-game descriptions of the skill… you can always actually use it and see for yourself.

Thank you for yet another repost. It didn’t work, apparently it does now. As I said in my last post. Honestly most people probably don’t know this because condition damage still sucks too much to use in most situations anyway.

bluewanders.5297:

What you said and what I said were similar… but not the same… you intoned that condition damage was inferior to direct damage due to blocks and reflects… when in fact both of them are affected in exactly the same way. The only difference is that conditions continue to tic.

And conditions CANNOT be reflected… the skills that inflict those conditions can… if the skill is reflected then it and all its accompanying effects are inflicted on the new target. The distinction is very important. SKILLS ARE REFLECTED AND BLOCKED… conditions caused by those skills are not, they are simply applied to the new target or not at all (in the case of a block or invuln in which the skill does not actuate.)

No, they were exactly the same, I never said that conditions themselves could be blocked or reflected, in fact I specified otherwise. Yet they can in any logical situation, be mitigated by all means that power can except by the stat toughness. And to put your own logic to that, power damage isn’t blocked or reflected either, the ability that causes the damage is! Durrr….

bluewanders.5297:

Again… if you are going to be pedantic… try to be correctly pedantic.

I think you need to look up what that word means, and while you’re at it, look up ‘hypocrite’.

Distaste.4801:

Direct damage is currently better in probably 90% of situations. Perhaps if you’re fighting a high armor target with protection on and no condition removal, condition damage is better, but for everything else direct damage is better. The fact that people with condition damage almost have to stack precision to get another condition is just bad mechanics. There should be “on condition tick” sigils that have a chance on tick to proc another condition. Why ArenaNet is so focused on crit boggles my mind. Think outside the box! On hit sigils, On heal, On dodge, On stealth, on Block, On evade, etc. ArenaNet has had plenty of room to expand but they’ve kept most of the decent sigil effects in the on crit area.

This hits on one of the several fundamental reasons why this game is so poorly designed relative to GW1 – a lack of conditional effects/events.

GW1 had skills that procced on acquiring a condition, losing a condition, acquiring a hex, losing a hex, acquiring an enchantment, losing an enchantment, amongst others. The existence of skills like these allowed, for example, builds that were solely focused around the application and quick removal of (conditions/hexes/enchants) rather than the degen caused by the conditions themselves.

I don’t understand at all why the designers of GW2 decided to eliminate conditional effects in favour of straight damage skills. It goes to the heart of what made the GW1 skill system so great.

GW2 has more or less the same set of skills for each class that differ only in animation and CD. Traits are underwhelming and show a real lack of imagination. It’s boring.