Guild Wars 2

Rieselle.5079:

Your points are almost all correct except for this one.
Refurbishing something and then selling it is not the RL equivalent of “flipping.”

Yes it is. In fact, the most common definition of the term “flipping” is in application to real estate: buy a house cheap, refurbish it, and then sell it for a much higher price tag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipping

The problem with “flipping” in a video game is that the middle step of refurbishing is completely unnecessary because the item has no wear-and-tear or any such equivalent, it’s a digital item whose durability is permanently at peak efficiency. So that vital money sink that makes flipping in the real world a much more risky venture is not present in video game economies, leading to higher profits for the “flippers” and higher prices for everyone else.

eisberg.2379:

The problem with skill based, is that all it takes is some practice and everyone can do it, and it would be fun to do. Really, the only way to make sure that not everyone can get a legendary, is to make it a really boring to get for most people. Lets be honest, the only true barrier to getting a legendary is whether one deems it fun to do a major rng grind, or don’t mind doing that kind of grind despite it might be boring to them.

TLDR: Make it fun to get, everyone will get it.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight:

Your counterargument to the idea of making “legendaries” a skill-based challenge….is that it will make them “too fun” to obtain, and thus, everybody will have one, even though there’s a clear skill barrier that most players won’t be able to break through?

I’m not sure you thought that argument through.

icen.6309:

“Doesn’t take skill it only takes time” time still = hard to obtain, hense how you are whining about it, it’s can’t be easy

Er, yes it can.

Suppose you’re trying to cook two identical meals, one of which takes twice as long to cook. Is the second meal twice as hard? Not really, it just takes longer to complete. The amount of time spent doing a task does not directly translate into the task’s difficulty. Time can be a factor in difficulty, certainly, but that depends on the task in question and how time is factored into it. For example, running an obstacle course becomes a harder task if you set a time limit on completing it. But a task is not automatically harder simply because it takes longer to do.

I find it hilarious that someone who doesn’t understand something this basic would try to claim that everybody else in the thread doesn’t understand “basic logic comprehension” (which, btw, isn’t actually a “thing”).

critickitten.1498:

So let me see if I’ve got this straight:

Your counterargument to the idea of making “legendaries” a skill-based challenge….is that it will make them “too fun” to obtain, and thus, everybody will have one, even though there’s a clear skill barrier that most players won’t be able to break through?

I’m not sure you thought that argument through.

I would love it to be skilled based. But with it being skilled based, that means all people have to do is practice, perhaps get on the internet and watch people do it, or read about it. The point is that a crap ton more people would end up getting it because skill based really is more fun then just grinding through the RNG.

I know for me I would get one if it was skill based and I know I would succeed at it, and I know a guild full of people who would also. But instead, at least in my guild, we have very very few people going for it, because everyone else just does not want to do something so boring.

At least for my guild, skill based would easily add about 23 other people to getting it, grind based, and there is 23 people who choose not to get it because it is so boring.

Get it now? It is just boredom that is stopping people from getting a legendary, everyone who wants a legendary and is working on it will eventually get it, it is just a matter of time. Make it skilled based and a whole lot more people will get it and there by decrease the “special” status of the legendary.

Minion of Vey.4398:

Something like the mad king jumping puzzle does take skill, but that kind of gameplay isn’t something I think most MMO players would be interested in focusing on.

That doesn’t take skill. That takes repetition until you get it right. You do not need skill to do the jumping puzzle because once you know how to do it and did it once, it’s going to be done easily.

Saying that takes skill is misdirecting because I could . . . in essence, pass any multiple-choice test the same way. Take the SAT over and over again learning the questions and the how the answers are arranged, and maybe actually learning the stuff they test for, until I can pass it flawlessly. That’s not skill, that’s just repetition until you get it right.

That’s called experimentation.

eisberg.2379:

I would love it to be skilled based. But with it being skilled based, that means all people have to do is practice, perhaps get on the internet and watch people do it, or read about it. The point is that a crap ton more people would end up getting it because skill based really is more fun then just grinding through the RNG.

I know for me I would get one if it was skill based and I know I would succeed at it, and I know a guild full of people who would also. But instead, at least in my guild, we have very very few people going for it, because everyone else just does not want to do something so boring.

At least for my guild, skill based would easily add about 23 other people to getting it, grind based, and there is 23 people who choose not to get it because it is so boring.

Get it now? It is just boredom that is stopping people from getting a legendary, everyone who wants a legendary and is working on it will eventually get it, it is just a matter of time. Make it skilled based and a whole lot more people will get it and there by decrease the “special” status of the legendary.

I don’t think you understand how “skill” is defined.

You are referring to tangible things, like a scavenger hunt, where the answer can simply be posted somewhere else and thus anyone can do it. But that isn’t “skill”.

I’m referring to intangible, unmeasurable quantities. Things that can’t be measured but are clearly demonstrated in reality. If I go and watch other people play Call of Duty for a few hours, I don’t turn into a master of first-person shooters who can lob grenades with a perfect arc into any window. I still have to practice, get better at the game, and eventually learn how to do it myself.

And really, shouldn’t that be precisely what “legendaries” are all about? Demonstrating that you’ve attained enough experience and skill in the game that you can complete difficult challenges?

You assert that people would find it easier to get “legendaries” if they weren’t a boring grind, whereas I assert that in five years time, everyone who wants a “legendary” will most certainly have one because the current system has absolutely zero difficulty. If you want to make an item rare, you don’t just make it expensive….you make it hard to find in the first place, and you make someone work their butt off to get to it.

critickitten.1498:

eisberg.2379:

I would love it to be skilled based. But with it being skilled based, that means all people have to do is practice, perhaps get on the internet and watch people do it, or read about it. The point is that a crap ton more people would end up getting it because skill based really is more fun then just grinding through the RNG.

I know for me I would get one if it was skill based and I know I would succeed at it, and I know a guild full of people who would also. But instead, at least in my guild, we have very very few people going for it, because everyone else just does not want to do something so boring.

At least for my guild, skill based would easily add about 23 other people to getting it, grind based, and there is 23 people who choose not to get it because it is so boring.

Get it now? It is just boredom that is stopping people from getting a legendary, everyone who wants a legendary and is working on it will eventually get it, it is just a matter of time. Make it skilled based and a whole lot more people will get it and there by decrease the “special” status of the legendary.

I don’t think you understand how “skill” is defined.

You are referring to tangible things, like a scavenger hunt, where the answer can simply be posted somewhere else and thus anyone can do it. But that isn’t “skill”.

I’m referring to intangible, unmeasurable quantities. Things that can’t be measured but are clearly demonstrated in reality. If I go and watch other people play Call of Duty for a few hours, I don’t turn into a master of first-person shooters who can lob grenades with a perfect arc into any window. I still have to practice, get better at the game, and eventually learn how to do it myself.

And really, shouldn’t that be precisely what “legendaries” are all about? Demonstrating that you’ve attained enough experience and skill in the game that you can complete difficult challenges?

You assert that people would find it easier to get “legendaries” if they weren’t a boring grind, whereas I assert that in five years time, everyone who wants a “legendary” will most certainly have one because the current system has absolutely zero difficulty. If you want to make an item rare, you don’t just make it expensive….you make it hard to find in the first place, and you make someone work their butt off to get to it.

I wasn’t referring to tangible things at all. I was in fact referring to everything else you said, the intangible. I assert that learning to be skilled in this game is far more fun then doing some RNG Grind. Since it would be more fun to learn to be skilled, more people would be willing to go for the Legendary.

I would bet there would be far more people with a legendary if skilled based in 5 years, then there would be with the current system in 5 years, because skilled based would actually be more fun for more people.

Make it skill based, and people would practice and learn to be skilled enough, far more people would be willing to do that, then the number of people willing to go through a massive RNG grind.

eisberg.2379:

Make it skill based, and people would practice and learn to be skilled enough, far more people would be willing to do that, then the number of people willing to go through a massive RNG grind.

And we’ve come to the root of the problem, right here.

By making “legendaries” require a vast array of in-game knowledge and skill, players will have to work hard to learn and master the game before they can attain their “legendaries”. They will learn new things, master old skills, and in general they would need to be much better at the game in order to break through that skill barrier.

Assuming that you are correct and that players (which I think is a load because I’m proof of how false your assertion is, but let’s roll with it) will all seek out “legendaries” PURELY because they are more fun to get now….then they would have to learn a greater array of skills and be able to adapt to changing conditions. Ergo, at the end of the day, this leads to a player base that is smarter, more skilled, and generally more knowledgeable.

And you feel that this is a bad thing simply because it might mean that a lot of people will end up having “legendaries”?

Because personally, I think a game full of Lvl 80 players that don’t know how to complete their dailies because they don’t know how dodging works(1) but still are running around with these “legendaries” anyways is way worse than what I’m suggesting.

(1): Which, I’ll point out, is actually a complaint that was made on the first few days of the new daily….that tons of map chat people were asking how to dodge because they didn’t know how to do it. Some of whom had even ‘beaten’ the game. I was as appalled to learn of this as you no doubt are.

critickitten.1498:

eisberg.2379:

Make it skill based, and people would practice and learn to be skilled enough, far more people would be willing to do that, then the number of people willing to go through a massive RNG grind.

And we’ve come to the root of the problem, right here.

By making “legendaries” require a vast array of in-game knowledge and skill, players will have to work hard to learn and master the game before they can attain their “legendaries”. They will learn new things, master old skills, and in general they would need to be much better at the game in order to break through that skill barrier.

Assuming that you are correct and that players (which I think is a load because I’m proof of how false your assertion is, but let’s roll with it) will all seek out “legendaries” PURELY because they are more fun to get now….then they would have to learn a greater array of skills and be able to adapt to changing conditions. Ergo, at the end of the day, this leads to a player base that is smarter, more skilled, and generally more knowledgeable.

And you feel that this is a bad thing simply because it might mean that a lot of people will end up having “legendaries”?

Because personally, I think a game full of Lvl 80 players that don’t know how to complete their dailies because they don’t know how dodging works(1) but still are running around with these “legendaries” anyways is way worse than what I’m suggesting.

(1): Which, I’ll point out, is actually a complaint that was made on the first few days of the new daily….that tons of map chat people were asking how to dodge because they didn’t know how to do it. Some of whom had even ‘beaten’ the game. I was as appalled to learn of this as you no doubt are.

No I think it would be a great thing, a fantastic thing. But the problem is that Arenanet wants legendaries to be an item that the vast majority of the players would not get, to make them “special” and comparatively rare. What is the only way to make sure a small minority of your players get a “special” item? Make it really boring to get =D

You would need to first convince Arenanet that the Legendaries do not need to be as rare as they like them to be, and then also convince those players that like to feel “special” in a game by having “special” items that it would be better for the over all game if it was skilled based rather then Boredom Tolerance based.

Look, even if you make a Legendary acquisition “skill based”, what’s going to happen is the same as if it were a scavenger hunt or a quest you could “look up the FAQ for”. People are going to look up what they need to do and do it until they get it. Ninety percent of them won’t even really let the lessons stick with them, they’ll just do it until chance makes it happen.

Again, it’s just repetition until you get it which . . . is what we have now.

eisberg.2379:

No I think it would be a great thing, a fantastic thing. But the problem is that Arenanet wants legendaries to be an item that the vast majority of the players would not get, to make them “special” and comparatively rare. What is the only way to make sure a small minority of your players get a “special” item? Make it really boring to get =D

Let’s respond to that question with another: What’s the best way to retain players long-term?

Not sure? Here’s a hint: It’s not to bore them with pure tedium, only to then throw in their face how all of it is “optional” and how they don’t HAVE to do it, even though it’s the only thing left for them to do once they max out their level. But that’s what I see in this forum all too often. The response to everything is “but it’s just optional”….to which I say “sure, it’s optional….but once you use that excuse on everything, what’s left to actually PLAY in this game?”. And the answer is “not that much”.

I can tell you right now that in five years, when the game’s population has mostly settled to its final levels, everyone who has been playing all this time and honestly wants a “legendary” will have one. And they’ll be so common that people will be begging ANet to do something about it. But it’ll be way too late by then to fix the problem.

If we’re destined to end up in a world where everyone has a “legendary”, I’d rather it be a world where everyone who has a “legendary” is also an experienced player who can be trusted in tough combat situations. It seems far preferable to “legendary” owners who still struggle to understand the dodge mechanic.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Look, even if you make a Legendary acquisition “skill based”, what’s going to happen is the same as if it were a scavenger hunt or a quest you could “look up the FAQ for”. People are going to look up what they need to do and do it until they get it. Ninety percent of them won’t even really let the lessons stick with them, they’ll just do it until chance makes it happen.

Again, it’s just repetition until you get it which . . . is what we have now.

So you admit that, at its absolute worst, a skill-based model is at least equal to the current model.

Considering that at its best, it produces a far superior game world, I’d probably be the sort of developer who would go ahead and do it, if the absolute worst I could do is make something that’s equal to the current model, which so many people have complained about. But that’s just me.

critickitten.1498:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Look, even if you make a Legendary acquisition “skill based”, what’s going to happen is the same as if it were a scavenger hunt or a quest you could “look up the FAQ for”. People are going to look up what they need to do and do it until they get it. Ninety percent of them won’t even really let the lessons stick with them, they’ll just do it until chance makes it happen.

Again, it’s just repetition until you get it which . . . is what we have now.

So you admit that, at its absolute worst, a skill-based model is at least equal to the current model.

Considering that at its best, it produces a far superior game world, I’d probably be the sort of developer who would go ahead and do it, if the absolute worst I could do is make something that’s equal to the current model, which so many people have complained about. But that’s just me.

I admit it is a possibility and the pessimist side of me has seen it happen time and time again that you don’t need to be skilled to complete a challenge. You can substitute skill for naked, stupid, idiotic luck and still make it through. But let’s examine the situation a bit more. . .

At it’s best, a skill-based world will cause people to actually master the mechanics you put in front of them. Everyone will rise to the level of their competence and no further, and the people who aren’t in the top “tier” will become frustrated at not being able to get any further and quit. The top tier won’t be enough players to sustain the complexity of the game and it will dissolve into the same people all the time with very little “churn” moving people up or down the skill ladder. Newcomers are quickly able to notice that the people who have the skill are much . . . much . . . better off and get discouraged from trying because it’s apparent they won’t ever be that good and that the veterans will be simply better. This is somewhat of what happened with Ultima Online with PvP – only the most skillful survived and anyone who couldn’t survive quit.

At the worst of a skill-based world, the game begins simple enough but quickly becomes impenetrable and requires loads and loads of time to master even what the designer thinks is the simplest building block for the game. I call this the Dwarf Fortress design. There will be a hardcore set of people who are happy with the way the game weeds out “inferior players” through the repeated frustration of losing, but these players will not mind it at all and will continue to play the game hoping to do just a little better in each iteration.

Yes, this is pessimistic, but I’ve seen it happen before, and I actually quit Ultima Online due to that sort of PvP arrangement. Add in that game also had no gear treadmill, and no actual endgame beyond PvP, and that would be among the reason it is remembered fondly by many and remembered lukewarm at best by many others.

. . . then there’s the Monster Hunter series, a game which highly rewards skillful play but mixed it with the most gods-be-crazy RNG you could find. No, this is worse than Precursor hunting, and if you think Ascended gear was a treadmill? Oh lord . . . you would hate the equipment system in place. But on the plus side, you could literally take on fights naked with some of the worst weapons you could make and win based purely on skill.

Now, both aren’t bad games/series. But they don’t exactly draw a lot of players either, due to the skill-based play. Someone mentioned upthread about Devil May Cry; I quit the third game after actually shattering a controller over knowing how to pull off moves and a fight and being completely unable to do so. As much as I can admire a game which is basically “you must be this good to see the ending”, I stopped playing or buying them because . . .

. . . well because I want to see the freaking ending somewhere other than YouTue!

It’s not a “harsh randian dystopia”, it’s basic capitalism

No, it’s not.

In basic capitalism, entry to the market is easy, and possible through multiple avenues, causing tremendous price competition through both identitcal and substitute products and spikes in supply whenever prices rise above a net profit of zero.

It’s not what is happening with pecursors, and it’s not what is happening in the real US economy either. If you think it is, you live in a dream world and need to turn off the Hannity.

No, we live in an oligopolistic, rapacious mockery of what used to be a competitive capitalistic society. I log on to a fantasy game to escape that, not to have it reinforced with a(n only slightly) worse model in-game.

This game isn’t just a sellers market, people who want to buy precursors can put buy orders in and refuse to buy at the seller’s price. There’s nothing a seller could do about it either, except mark down the price.

The entire market is influenced by sellers and buyers alike, the price is high because the buyers let it be so. The problem is in the players, not ANet.

I gave up on the legendary a few days ago and put the idea to rest. While I’d have most other ingredients needed, the precursor prices are about as broken as it gets, and while ANet could fix them fairly easily by increasing the supply (read: make them drop more often), they seem to be fine with legendaries being rewarded to the lucky (read: Mystic Forge gamblers) and TP manipulators instead of dedicated players. If that’s the way they want to run their economy, I can’t change it.

McDili.1549:

This game isn’t just a sellers market, people who want to buy precursors can put buy orders in and refuse to buy at the seller’s price. There’s nothing a seller could do about it either, except mark down the price.

The entire market is influenced by sellers and buyers alike, the price is high because the buyers let it be so. The problem is in the players, not ANet.

The problem is in the utter lack of supply, and ANet controls the supply.

When ANet makes supplies that scarce, you end up with basement dwellers and only basement dwellers able to access these, and everyone else who has a life gets to take a flying leap. I thought this game was supposed to reward people for “playing how they want” rather than compelling them to quit their jobs and flunk their courses.

Kimyrielle.3826:

I gave up on the legendary a few days ago and put the idea to rest. While I’d have most other ingredients needed, the precursor prices are about as broken as it gets, and while ANet could fix them fairly easily by increasing the supply (read: make them drop more often), they seem to be fine with legendaries being rewarded to the lucky (read: Mystic Forge gamblers) and TP manipulators instead of dedicated players. If that’s the way they want to run their economy, I can’t change it.

^^^ QFT. When I realized the trend back in 11/15, I stopped looking at legendaries as signs of experience and instead look at their wielders as exploiters and gold buyers.

at least PWI doesn’t beat about the bush regarding pay to win.

You’re also forgetting having a Legendary can also mark you as a target for people to try to hack your account. After all, if you have that much to blow on a precursor . . . you got to have more they can strip out.

That’s the primary reason I resist thinking about it. I don’t feel like painting a big bulls-eye on my back.

1) Install Preview option in Trading Post. 2) Make all [or as many as possible] purchases from the Trading Post account bound. No more buying and re-selling. You want something? Buy it and use it. You don’t want something? Don’t buy it.
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After X time elapsed of the inability to re-sell items, prices will stabilize. They may not plummet, but stabilize.

Slayd.2871:

BurnedToast, I was expected someone like you to reply to the post. there always seems to be a TP player who feels the need to repeat the garbage that you posted. Price adjustment? rofl. doesnt even want to admit price manipulation. your probably someone who has something to lose if they fix the precursor problem and so u feel the need to defend the current way to save your profits.

Surprise, someone disagrees with you… they must be the enemy right?

I wish I was some sort of TP millionaire with multiple precursors on the market, somehow buying and reselling them over and over to multiply my pile of gold or whatever people think is happening. Fact is, I don’t even play that much anymore, have nothing in the TP, and maybe 20 gold total on all my chars put together.

Here’s a question for all you people who think the market is being manipulated. How much do you think a precursor should cost? Ok, keep that price in mind, load up the game, and check how many hundreds (thousands) of offers are offering that price or higher. Now check how many are on sale total. Now divide that number by the number of offers that meet your price.

See the problem? If they were cheaper, you wouldn’t get one anyway. I just don’t understand what you expect to happen here.