Guild Wars 2

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the current upcoming balance patch. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the developer interaction that has stemmed from it, as well as developer interactions in the past.
I will present my argument given that I main a Necromancer.

I present exhibit A:

Here is a summary of the changes we have made thus far based on feedback we have read. This is not necessarily the end of adjustments, but where we stand currently. There were a lot of good suggestions, and some of them may not be able to make it due to time constraints on testing and implementation. Please continue to give feedback over the course of the next few days. We will continue to monitor that feedback and take it into account in changes we make for this patch and for the future.

ELEMENTALIST

• Arcane Resurrection is going up to master tier instead of Renewing Stamina.
• Windborne Dagger is going to function outside of combat.
• Soothing Disruption is moving to master tier.
• Cantrip Mastery is moving to adept tier.
• Soothing Wave redesign: Gain Regeneration(3s) on incmoing critical hits. 10s recharge.

ENGINEER

• Power Shoes is going to function outside of combat.

MESMER

• Confounding Suggestions – We will merge the old functionality with the new functionality. It will now have 50% change to stun on daze and increase daze duration by 25%.

THIEF

• Vigorous Recovery will come down to kitten Vigor instead of 4s.
• Bountiful Theft will come down to a 10s Vigor instead of 8s.

WARRIOR

• Combustive Shot. To clarify this change, the damage is normalized to about 15% less physical damage than it used to do at all adrenaline levels, but that the damage per pulse is the same regardless of adrenaline level.

Reminder, we will be locking this thread near the end of the week.

Thanks,

Jon

I can appreciate that not all professions got a mention here, as certain things are easier to edit, and ANet doesn’t have infinite time and resources. However, note the following:

Necromancers have received one developer post regarding the balance patch in their dedicated thread, and that was just a repost from what Jon had written in the main thread. Is it then surprising to any of you that no changes were presented based on Necromancer requests? Many Necromancers have agreed for months now on changes we’d like to see, but apparently, they are all but ignored; we didn’t ask Dhuumfire, and our Blood Magic trait line does not “feel pretty good”.
Why is the primary discussion not located in the profession specific forums anyway?

Beyond this, the Necro subforum has seen a pitiful number of developer posts as of late, with the one before Jon’s talking about a bug related to skill bar lag on exiting Deathshroud. A bug that has yet to be fixed, and we have heard nothing about since.

The point of this thread is not to complain about our current balance, but about the lack of developer interaction. I would be ok with Necromancers receiving no changes so long as we knew that our requests were being considered for future endeavors. But we don’t even get that much, and its fostered substantial negativity in our subforum. I understand that Devs can’t post in every thread, but take a look at the number of Dev posts in other professions’ forums and balance threads.

What I would like to know is the following: I’m sure Necros aren’t the only ones getting the short end of the stick, and it is only natural that any given Dev favors some professions over others. Hence, what is your experience with profession favoritism?

All I can say is vote with your wallet. My wife and I play and our investment in the game directly relates to the amount of money we are willing to spend on it.

Being that Necromancer is my main – that investment is pretty low right now.

(Even if Necromancer is the least popular class they are still losing money on easy fixes. Fixes that we have provided in great detail.)

I would also like to second the disappointment at the utter lack of developer interaction with the Necromancer community. When we recently got a response about staff bugs (after four months of non-stop reporting), the response we got was basically “We don’t know what’s causing it, but you’re not worth our time to fix things on.” That’s how I interpreted it, at any rate. The actual response is this:

We are changing the tooltip to clear up the confusion for this skill. It is a 3 condition transfer from self to foes when they trigger it. None of the other issues are bugs.

Hope this clears things up. This skill has undergone major balance renovations.

It will no longer cleanse teammates and it will always give a full cooldown when interrupted because its one of the best skills in the game.

If this is the case, why did it take four months to get anything at all as a response? What we could have accepted is “We changed the functionality, but forgot to change the tooltip or mention it in the patch notes,” assuming the response came shortly after the patch that changed it. Alternatively, that post could have read “We are aware of this bug, but cannot seem to find what is causing it. In the meantime, we will change the tooltip to reflect its current functionality”

Myrkr.5803:

All I can say is vote with your wallet. My wife and I play and our investment in the game directly relates to the amount of money we are willing to spend on it.

Being that Necromancer is my main – that investment is pretty low right now.

(Even if Necromancer is the least popular class they are still losing money on easy fixes. Fixes that we have provided in great detail.)

There’s no subscription fee. Voting with your wallet doesn’t do anything.

I disagree I’ve spent a more then reasonable amounted of money on the gem store. Arenanet is a business, if I like what they offer, I spend money.

So they just need to sell me on something – give me back some faith that the class I enjoy the most is worth their time and my money. (Because if they don’t I still get to play for free until they do or the game dies.)

The Necromancer forum is really a sorry sight. There is tons of negativity but even at a glance it is easy to see why. It’s a dead zone where a red thread shows up once in a blue moon. It’s demoralizing to know that neither our compliments or critiques matter as they are never addressed.

This problem causes animosity between Necromancers and Anet. This will only grow with time if not addressed.

Maybe I’m completely out of line here, but I think the necromancer is the best it’s been since launch. That is to say, at launch, I found my necro completely unplayable. Now I see them in every form of the game. They can do well in SPvP, they have their place in WvW (I love using a staff and stacking marks on bridges to keep the enemy zerg at bay), and in PvE it’s probably my favorite farming profession at this time.

Are there problems? Undoubtedly. There are problems with every profession. There will always be problems with every profession, if you look only at the downside.

And Anet can’t make changes in a vacuum. They can’t change the necromancer without making sure it’s going to fit in with all the other professions.

I think people who live in the profession forums are too tightly focused on the trees and sometimes they miss the forest. It’s nice out here.

Balefire –
I am relatively new to the Necro, having recently taken my first one to level 80 only a few weeks ago. But I agree that it would be encouraging to see the Devs:

a) Acknowledge some of the legitimate, recurring concerns found in the Necro 12-10-13 subthread (and others)
b) Acknowledge some of the good ideas for fixes in that thread (and others)
c) Acknowledge that Necros are a little confused by some of the changes with respect to the Devs’ stated intentions

If you’re sensing a theme, that’s because there is…it starts with an “A” and ends with “cknowledgement.”

Vayne – I agree that the necro is much better now than at launch. However, as you yourself state, the class was virtually unplayable at launch. Rather than turn this thread into a “how good is the necro, really?” discussion, I suggest you read through some of the very well-written posts in the Necro 12-10-13 patch subthread.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe I’m completely out of line here, but I think the necromancer is the best it’s been since launch. That is to say, at launch, I found my necro completely unplayable. Now I see them in every form of the game. They can do well in SPvP, they have their place in WvW (I love using a staff and stacking marks on bridges to keep the enemy zerg at bay), and in PvE it’s probably my favorite farming profession at this time.

Are there problems? Undoubtedly. There are problems with every profession. There will always be problems with every profession, if you look only at the downside.

And Anet can’t make changes in a vacuum. They can’t change the necromancer without making sure it’s going to fit in with all the other professions.

I think people who live in the profession forums are too tightly focused on the trees and sometimes they miss the forest. It’s nice out here.

The state of the necro is not what this thread is addressing. What it is concerned about is the utter lack of communication the devs have had with the Necro community. It’s impossible to know if our suggestions, complaints, or critiques are even being heard when we get no response at all to any of it.

As Drarnor said, the Necro could easily be the most overpowered profession (it was, for a while), and this thread would still be deserved.
We didn’t ask for Dhuumfire. The changes siphoning were ineffective. Reanimator has been complained about since launch. Deathshroud still experiences bugs, and we have no confirmation they intend on having our core mechanic function properly. And many more things. But we know of nothing. Ever.

Like I said, even if they were to tell us “we hate your profession,” that would be better than we have now, because we would at least know where they stand. I mean, all you have to do is look up the Putrid mark issue, and how they’re dealing with it. Check out the Elementalist Balance Thread and count how many red posts are in there. By my count, 7, including the original updates post. The entire Necromancer FORUM has not seen 7 dev posts in the last few MONTHS. It’s pretty clear who the red-headed stepchild is here.

I bet necros have still had more posts than eles.

dietzero.3514:

I bet necros have still had more posts than eles.

You would probably lose that bet. We have had Dev 9 posts over the last 20 forum pages, including one thread lock, one post reminding us to post bugs in the bugs subforum, and Jon’s recap post. Ele’s have had 12 Dev posts in their last 20 pages. That alone is a 25% improvement. I’m not going to check back further than that, but feel free to do so.

Necros were also substantially buggier on launch than Eles (and most other professions), so even if we did have more overall posts, it would be somewhat deserved.

dietzero.3514:

I bet necros have still had more posts than eles.

Incorrect.

The necromancer needs a PVE balance patch. I would like to know from the devs if there are any plans to fix the necromancer for PVE. Most importantly the issues with:

• The condition cap (we are a condition focused class that suffers immensely from it)
• Defiant/Unshakable (we also are a control focused class)
• Our total lack of defense against spike damage (all other classes have invincibility, reflection, evade or blocking skills)
• Our lack of access to cleave
• Our lack of access to stability

Maybe the necromancer forum sees fewer posts because we lack a dev that plays a dedicated necro as his/her main? I think I’ve seen most of the other classes played during demos, and done for showcase guides, but I can’t recall if they’ve done necro. Will have to double check their Twitch channel.

I’m just going to say that necromancers are balanced at wvw and pvp levels. Their primary issue is from a pve standpoint. Lack of party buffing utility has crippled their viability in dungeons and fractals. Furthermore lack of consistent high damage makes them a weaker pick when compared to warriors and mesmers, both of those classes having more utility than the necromancer. With the current dungeon meta, crowd control is useless, damage and utility are necessities.

This leaves 3 solid dungeon meta classes, warriors, guardians, and mesmers. All the other classes pale in comparison. Necromancers cannot hope to compete with 4k auto attacks and 25k hundred blades, yet somehow this has been going on for over a year now without being addressed.

Also, given the direct damage other classes are capable of, the condition cap seems pointless. My 5k fully stacked condition damage seems pathetic compared to a 25k hundred blades which is aoe. I understand the limit in pvp, but it’s truly crippling in pve.

Balefire.7592:

dietzero.3514:

I bet necros have still had more posts than eles.

You would probably lose that bet. We have had Dev 9 posts over the last 20 forum pages

The amount of “pages” is completely irrelevant in this case, and most in my opinion.

You would have to compare the amount of post over a certain time from. And if you look, it is a fact that the necros do not have the least dev visits. They are easily third from the bottom, so untill you begine argueing for the two below necromancers, I will couldn’t care less about anyone complaining about the necromancers dev post.

Necromancers have had 3 dev post in the last 2 weeks. That is just about on par with every professional sub forums.

did you consider that the dev’s come, look and say “nah, they’re good as is” ?

I play ele as main and… yeah, we’re the squishiest of squishy. Free kill. anyway, so I got a bit tired of dying and wanted to make a new alt, so I asked for ideas, said I didn’t want to for Warrior because c’mon, I want SOME challenge… and I got recommended (yes, in that order) necro, then guardian, then mesmer.

I agree with the direction yksdoris is going. I have had all professions to 80 for 9+ months now. In my experience, most players post and complain in absolute ignorance of what there main profession can do in relation to other professions.

I cannot even stomach posting on the warrior forums to discuss my warrior play. Those guys are so bad, they complain about everything. I see them complain i page upon page of something, all the while I am thinking to my self about how they are either the best at said issue they are complaining about, or even second best. Yet those players know nothing of the other professions and make completely false claims of how they compare to other professions out of pure ignorance, naivety, and inexperience.

coglin.1867:

The amount of “pages” is completely irrelevant in this case, and most in my opinion.

You would have to compare the amount of post over a certain time from. And if you look, it is a fact that the necros do not have the least dev visits. They are easily third from the bottom, so untill you begine argueing for the two below necromancers, I will couldn’t care less about anyone complaining about the necromancers dev post.

Necromancers have had 3 dev post in the last 2 weeks. That is just about on par with every professional sub forums.

I would like to see your data regarding that, but that’s not the point of this discussion.
If there are professions who are ignored even more than us, then I will argue for them as well. My intent is not to put professions against each other here, and if I have erroneously done so, then I apologize. I just want to hopefully alert the Devs to the fact that their inaction brews discontent among those who are willing to discuss things with them. As CHIPS said, silence is the worst rejection.
I can only speak for Necromancers because that is the only community I am active in, and the results of the Devs’ absence are clear in the negativity that has grown. If you feel your profession has also been ignored, then this is the place to speak your mind about it. Note that the thread title says nothing about Necromancers in particular.
Frankly, I feel it’s absurd that they didn’t start the balance discussion in the profession subforums to begin with (and I said as much in the main thread).

yksdoris.2194:

did you consider that the dev’s come, look and say “nah, they’re good as is” ?

I play ele as main and… yeah, we’re the squishiest of squishy. Free kill. anyway, so I got a bit tired of dying and wanted to make a new alt, so I asked for ideas, said I didn’t want to for Warrior because c’mon, I want SOME challenge… and I got recommended (yes, in that order) necro, then guardian, then mesmer.

This is not about balance. This is about their community involvement initiative. And it isn’t profession specific (though I may have erroneously made it appear as such). The entire problem here isn’t how weak or strong a particular profession is, it’s about how the suggestions and requests we’ve made seem to fall on deaf ears. Anyone can chime in regarding their profession if they’re so inclined. If every Elementalist feels like they are a free kill, and you feel like the Devs are effectively ignoring your pleas for better defenses, then you have every right to complain about their lack communication.

I understand that not every request can be made to come to fruition, but I feel like if the entire profession-community agrees on something, then it’s something the Devs should either heavily consider, or explain why they are not doing so. And right now, that aren’t even acknowledging these suggestions exist. I’m not looking for specific changes to occur, I’m looking for acknowledgement of the fact we want these changes to occur. If Eles stay squishy and Necros keep Reanimator, so be it, but the Devs should at least respond to our concerns with an explanation.

Here are some recent Dev thoughts about Necromancer: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/page/22#post3143059

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/page/31#post3159029

One thing that bothers me a lot, is that every PVP balance patch always focuses on traits and skills that are seeing a lot of use, which then get nerfed, so no one wants to use them any more. What is the point of that? If a trait is being used, you should be cheering first, and then realize you have a long way to go to make the other traits viable alternatives. Instead, what we see is every flavor of the month being nerfed to the point that it loses it’s purpose, while the same useless traits remain useless.

What about a trait like Toxic Landing for example? Does anyone ever use that? There’s a lot of traits that never see any use. And I’d rather see those improved or replaced, than to see useful traits be nerfed into uselessness.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What about a trait like Toxic Landing for example? Does anyone ever use that? There’s a lot of traits that never see any use. And I’d rather see those improved or replaced, than to see useful traits be nerfed into uselessness.

I had to comment on this, as I just so happened to have used Toxic Landing yesterday evening. However, I don’t normally have that trait selected. On those rare occasions that I want to fall, usually as shortcut, and I want to reduce the likelihood of dying, I change the trait slot temporarily and then return it back to its original state.

In that regard it’s a perfectly fine utility skill. Just not one I would use more than a handful of times a year.

JonPeters.5630:

We will talk today about changing duration on weakening shroud instead of cooldown .

Also we have some plans for death magic including merging reanimated with death nova, and moving Protection of the Horde to be a major trait, and then reworking the minors in this line. This kind of change is not going to happen for dec 10 for 3 reasons.
1) testing time
2) implementation time
3) most importantly: if we rework this we want to make sure it is correct the second time around so we will take our time deciding on the “right” design.

Point 3 is something I’m happy to discuss here to list some ideas and break down some pros and cons.

Thanks,

Jon

This right here, ANet. This is what we want more of. Communication of plans and acknowledgement our complaints, suggestions, or observations are being heard.

While this post is Necro specific, I’m sure people of any profession want more posts like this. It makes us, the players, feel involved. It lets us feel like we are helping the game become something we truly want to play even more than we already do.

Balefire.7592:

I would like to see your data regarding that, but that’s not the point of this discussion.

Its not rocket science. Pick a duration, say a month. got to each professions sub forums and count the dev post.

When you see there are two professions with less dev post then the necromancers and 3 that tie with the necromancer. You will then understand why Some of use find it hard to care about the OP.

coglin.1867:

Its not rocket science. Pick a duration, say a month. got to each professions sub forums and count the dev post.

When you see there are two professions with less dev post then the necromancers and 3 that tie with the necromancer. You will then understand why Some of use find it hard to care about the OP.

So, you’re saying you don’t want the Devs to communicate with you about your profession? “hard to care about the OP” in this situation means exactly that.

LOL at people comparing their own ignored forum with another ignored forum. It is like saying “You lost an arm? Well I lost 2 legs so I have it worst!”

Wouldn’t it make more sense to say “I agree with OP. I am an elementalist and we gets totally ignored too!”

coglin.1867:

Its not rocket science. Pick a duration, say a month. got to each professions sub forums and count the dev post.

When you see there are two professions with less dev post then the necromancers and 3 that tie with the necromancer. You will then understand why Some of use find it hard to care about the OP.

If you’d like to type up a brief history of Dev ignorance about some other profession, I’d be glad to edit it into the OP. Nowhere in the OP do I claim this to be a Necro-centric issue. Until such a time, the OP will continue to use Necromancers as a poster child for a general issue that plagues multiple profession subforums.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Jon Peters: ‘By the way I am currently in process of making some replies and discussion in the specific sub-forums where we are currently thinking about things so feel free to jump over there and join in. Also about to update the original post.’

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview-Updated-Nov-6th/page/33#post3162879

Henri Blanche.8276:

I had to comment on this, as I just so happened to have used Toxic Landing yesterday evening. However, I don’t normally have that trait selected. On those rare occasions that I want to fall, usually as shortcut, and I want to reduce the likelihood of dying, I change the trait slot temporarily and then return it back to its original state.

In that regard it’s a perfectly fine utility skill. Just not one I would use more than a handful of times a year.

You are entirely right. In a way, it would be much more suited as a skill, rather than a trait. Since it’s use is extremely situational and rare.

I would like to see a lot more of these obscure traits being addressed. Please devs, start making more necro traits worth taking, instead of the other way around.

Always warms the kittenles of my heart when I see people complaining about neglected class forums. Imagine if you were treated like Rangers. Today is the first day I’ve seen actual red posts in a long time, not that any of the discussions taking place are really going anywhere.

Balefire.7592:

Nowhere in the OP do I claim this to be a Necro-centric issue.

Sure seems like it here

I will present my argument given that I main a Necromancer………………………….Necromancers have received one developer post regarding the balance patch in their dedicated thread……………………………. Is it then surprising to any of you that no changes were presented based on Necromancer requests?……………………………..Many Necromancers have agreed for months now on changes we’d like to see……………………………………Necro subforum has seen a pitiful number of developer posts…………………………..lag on exiting Deathshroud. A bug that has yet to be fixed, and we have heard nothing about since………………………………………….I would be ok with Necromancers receiving no changes so long as we knew that our requests were being considered for future endeavors…………………………………What I would like to know is the following: I’m sure Necros aren’t the only ones getting the short end of the stick, and it is only natural that any given Dev favors some professions over others

Okay, remind me again when your not being very specifically Necro-centric here in the OP?

Balefire.7592:

If you’d like to type up a brief history of Dev ignorance about some other profession, I’d be glad to edit it into the OP.

Sure, as soon as you show me where in this thread I mentioned “dev ignorance” at all.

What I meant by “not necro-centric” was that it is not an issue limited solely to Necros, which seems to be the case given the post above yours. The OP never claims that, and utilizes my experiences as an example. Like I said, if you’d like to contribute to its improvement, you are more than welcome to do so.

But yes, you are correct. You have not yet talked about the primary discussion topic of the thread, which is the lack of Developer interaction in profession subforums. As such, why are you posting in this thread?

When Jon was first posting the discussion to the various profession threads, I was bouncing around the forums to see where he had posted and where he hadn’t. I have to agree—and I said this on another thread—the Necro thread is downright depressing, even for necromancy. The only red post I could find was the standard “post bugs to the bug threads” one that everybody got.

Generally, though, I must say that I’m very pleased with the developer interaction so far. They’re being conversational and open. PR-speak is kept to a minimum, and we’re actually getting information and having open discussions. It’s a beautiful change.

Balefire.7592:

dietzero.3514:

I bet necros have still had more posts than eles.

You would probably lose that bet. We have had Dev 9 posts over the last 20 forum pages, including one thread lock, one post reminding us to post bugs in the bugs subforum, and Jon’s recap post. Ele’s have had 12 Dev posts in their last 20 pages. That alone is a 25% improvement. I’m not going to check back further than that, but feel free to do so.

Necros were also substantially buggier on launch than Eles (and most other professions), so even if we did have more overall posts, it would be somewhat deserved.

Before that eles had absolutely nothing.

CHIPS.6018:

LOL at people comparing their own ignored forum with another ignored forum. It is like saying “You lost an arm? Well I lost 2 legs so I have it worst!”

Wouldn’t it make more sense to say “I agree with OP. I am an elementalist and we gets totally ignored too!”

lol, no because that would be hypocritical. To the Ele’s overwhelming joy, there have been several posts over the past few days in the Ele forum by the dev’s.

what I meant was – and I probably should have stopped there – was this: maybe they come, they look and they go “But this class is already good as is. No need for too much change” and THAT’s why they dont’post?