Professions need cool new skills like NPCs

Professions need cool new skills like NPCs

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

Hello,

With some irony, I have a lot of pleasure to play my mesmer, but I think it’s time for him to retire in a peaceful abode, and go grow carrots and cabbages.

Indeed, I encountered a new mesmer : Ro Venombite . Even if she’s just a veteran mercenary, she’s able to break the illusion at 80%, still cast her spells in stealth, port elsewhere, and come back with 100% HP. And this, not only once, but seemingly every time she wants. It’s an absolute pain to fight her, and even if I recognize she can be taken down, I also admit she’s far more powerful than White Mantle mesmers that had 2 HP bars, or even those twin pistols mesmers that stack confusion.

So, the time has come. The commander of the pact is old, lacks training and new fresh skills. And there’s a nice manor in Kryta that’s now available, providing some megalomanic portraits are removed. Carrots and cabbages. That’ll be fine for the future of the commander of the Pact.


non ironic version : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so boring to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

Development time is wasted creating on-steroids variants of player’s skills while players are starving for new skills to play with. The sole purpose of this is to create an artificial challenge, and even that fails because those named mercenaries aren’t a real threat whatsoever.

Aren’t there better ways to create challenging encounters than tossing handfuls of overpowered trash mobs blasting CC’s all around ?

(edited by ThomasC.1056)

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Posted by: HnRkLnXqZ.1870

HnRkLnXqZ.1870

We are highly overpowered in pve. Challenging fights keep us entertained and motivated. There are npcs out there which can beat you up easily without relying on cheap tricks, but most of us never fight them under fair conditions, so they are weak insta-kills. The modus sceleris are of that kind. Extremely powerful mesmers, hard to beat if you dare to solo them with average gear in the recommended level. That situation rarely happens, in most cases there is at least one 80 outmaxed killer-machine arround who turns the epic fight into a 5 seconds mini-event. Another tough memser npc can be the norn lady at the snowden drifts hero challenge. Even some 80s characters have trouble, if they dare to fight her alone. Those only use regular mesmer skills.

Now we enter the new zones and meet new enemies. We also meet those strange and extremely powerful ones. But compared to the above mentioned, we can not return in a few days with level 120 and ultimate mega roxxor gear to beat the sugar out of them.

I rather have challenging and powerful enemies, than weak 1hit kills. Never understood what is so fun with doing dungeons/fractals and other content with groups full of outmaxed characters to kill everything instantly or asap. We play the game for entertainment, not to be done with it as quickly as possible. If I want that, I can go to work instead – better loot.

dulfy-effect: Knowledge is power. But without fame, you are just a freak.

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

Don’t get me wrong : I’m not against challenges. And I’m not losing against Ro Venombite. Actually, when I see her shatter two or three times, and come back at 100%, I just sigh and move on. She doesn’t really harm me anyway with her skills.

I’m pointing her as a caricature example of what I think is bad design. Here is what I’m seeing with my pessimistic eyes. Draconis is a high level map, and players there are expected to come with high level gear and skills, so devs are doing power creeps in NPC’s in order to provide “challenge”. Hence, white mantle, perma-frozen Bitterfrost, CC all around, and now, On-steroids Mesmers.

There’re recurring threads here asking for new weapons skills. It’s been years I’m casting the 5 sames skills with my staff. And now what ? Now Mesmers are two, three, four HP bars ? Now, mesmers can dual wield a pistol, and use unload (which is a thief skill) while stacking 1 confusion per hit ? What kind of nonsense is that ? Content-wise, it just means the “commander of the Pact” is a newbie with average skills, and that like 50 random mercenaries know their profession better than the commander.

To me, that’s one of the laziest way to provide “challenging” content (the laziest being just raising the figures) : it’s frustrating, and it gives the (maybe false) feeling that devs are busier designing skills for useless NPC’s than new things to feed their playerbase.

Because it takes time to code all this.

(edited by ThomasC.1056)

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Posted by: Ookamikun.6472

Ookamikun.6472

There’s also Calamity. She’s a “named” merc too like Ro. Her gimmick however is spamming as much as condis on you while spamming summons and occasionally cc-ing you. I think she’s the only named merc who is harder to kill solo.

With that said I don’t know their purpose (Ro, Calamity, and that one other guy). Apparently there’s an event that supposedly they must participate, but I don’t see it.

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

Don’t get me wrong : I’m not against challenges. And I’m not losing against Ro Venombite. Actually, when I see her shatter two or three times, and come back at 100%, I just sigh and move on. She doesn’t really harm me anyway with her skills.

I’m pointing her as a caricature example of what I think is bad design. Here is what I’m seeing with my pessimistic eyes. Draconis is a high level map, and players there are expected to come with high level gear and skills, so devs are doing power creeps in NPC’s in order to provide “challenge”. Hence, white mantle, perma-frozen Bitterfrost, CC all around, and now, On-steroids Mesmers.

There’re recurring threads here asking for new weapons skills. It’s been years I’m casting the 5 sames skills with my staff. And now what ? Now Mesmers are two, three, four HP bars ? Now, mesmers can dual wield a pistol, and use unload (which is a thief skill) while stacking 1 confusion per hit ? What kind of nonsense is that ? Content-wise, it just means the “commander of the Pact” is a newbie with average skills, and that like 50 random mercenaries know their profession better than the commander.

To me, that’s one of the laziest way to provide “challenging” content (the laziest being just raising the figures) : it’s frustrating, and it gives the (maybe false) feeling that devs are busier designing skills for useless NPC’s than new things to feed their playerbase.

Because it takes time to code all this.

So your real gripe is that you want more skills. Welcome to the huge “we are begging for more skills” club here at gw2.

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

Don’t get me wrong : I’m not against challenges. And I’m not losing against Ro Venombite. Actually, when I see her shatter two or three times, and come back at 100%, I just sigh and move on. She doesn’t really harm me anyway with her skills.

I’m pointing her as a caricature example of what I think is bad design. Here is what I’m seeing with my pessimistic eyes. Draconis is a high level map, and players there are expected to come with high level gear and skills, so devs are doing power creeps in NPC’s in order to provide “challenge”. Hence, white mantle, perma-frozen Bitterfrost, CC all around, and now, On-steroids Mesmers.

There’re recurring threads here asking for new weapons skills. It’s been years I’m casting the 5 sames skills with my staff. And now what ? Now Mesmers are two, three, four HP bars ? Now, mesmers can dual wield a pistol, and use unload (which is a thief skill) while stacking 1 confusion per hit ? What kind of nonsense is that ? Content-wise, it just means the “commander of the Pact” is a newbie with average skills, and that like 50 random mercenaries know their profession better than the commander.

To me, that’s one of the laziest way to provide “challenging” content (the laziest being just raising the figures) : it’s frustrating, and it gives the (maybe false) feeling that devs are busier designing skills for useless NPC’s than new things to feed their playerbase.

Because it takes time to code all this.

So your real gripe is that you want more skills. Welcome to the huge “we are begging for more skills” club here at gw2.

My only wish is for devs to create and give content to players, and not to themselves. There’s a classical flaw in role playing games, or some board games, where the game master at first plays his role alongside the players, then he plays against the players, then he only plays with himself. ANet seems to be somewhere between the last two.

Ro and Calamity are nothing but the most recent evidences of that.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I’ve gone up against each with multiple characters (once I noticed their presence), just to see how I could do. I’ve also chosen to avoid them recently since (a) there’s no story tied to them, (b) they don’t drop any special loot that I’ve noticed, and (most importantly to me), (c`) they don’t progress the heart any faster.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

Yup Mesmers left in the dust the lowest of dps benchmarks heavily trait reliant compared to other classes. The only way they can make Mesmer NPC’s both enemy and ally do anything is to not make them at all. That’s right I don’t count any of them as Mesmers their abilities are simply to different the other classes are at least somewhat aligned with their NPC counterparts.

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

TC just wants the mesmers to be in line

You go to the new map you see an engineer NPC and that NPC will drop a turret and attack like a normal engineer. Nothing flashy and nothing unexpected the other classes are the same except Mesmer.

Asking for the same skills these NPC’s have or asking for those skills to be removed all lead down the same hole. Just to have the two to line up isn’t that big of a request. The interpretations you all are taking from his statements are different but the end result is the same. Either nerf the NPC skills or buff the core mesmer skills either way the difference between the two shouldn’t exist. Personally I agree if an enemy npc has a class they should stay within the confines of that class.

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

While I can see that it might be frustrating to see a mob which has a skill we cannot use, sometimes they need such advantages. After all, they cannot switch weapons, traits and utilities to counter particular player builds, while players can do so to counter mob builds.

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Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

Indeed, I encountered a new mesmer : Ro Venombite . Even if she’s just a veteran mercenary, she’s able to break the illusion at 80%, still cast her spells in stealth, port elsewhere, and come back with 100% HP. And this, not only once, but seemingly every time she wants.

Yes, noticed her too and was thinking the same thing: “What in the name of the Six…?” The other named mercanaries in the area are not nearly as powerful as her, and the first time around I also couldn’t believe my eyes.

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

While I can see that it might be frustrating to see a mob which has a skill we cannot use, sometimes they need such advantages. After all, they cannot switch weapons, traits and utilities to counter particular player builds, while players can do so to counter mob builds.

This is irrelevant, you can’t swap on the fly in PvP either yet people do just fine with what they have.

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf. From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I totally agree. I used to have tons of fun in a game with a given set of professions, and each mob had one of those, and shared the same skill possibilities as the players. There even was a possibility to steal a skill from a dead champion enemy using a specific signet. It was the only way to get elites. I can’t remember the name of that game… Good old times.

May you be listened on the devs part.

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

While I can see that it might be frustrating to see a mob which has a skill we cannot use, sometimes they need such advantages. After all, they cannot switch weapons, traits and utilities to counter particular player builds, while players can do so to counter mob builds.

This is irrelevant, you can’t swap on the fly in PvP either yet people do just fine with what they have.

Don’t be obtuse. The limits on weapon swapping in PvP are not the equivalent of never being able to swap weapons, a smaller skill bar, never being able to change traits, and most importantly, having a real brain.

The OP’s complaint is of the same type as the anti-Kormir, anti-Trahearne, that NPC got more applause, has a different shiny than my PC complaints. Dear player, the assumption that NPCs can not have unique skills is yours. It is not a self-evident, obvious extension of gaming, being Tyrian or being the Commandeer. If there is anything special about our Commandeers, besides us, it is their willingness to take the shortcut past a dragon’s teeth on their journey to punch it in the brain and convince our party that it is actually a shortcut.

That being said….

There is a glaring lack of lore explaining how standard Tyrians like our PCs train for professions and gather skills. We keep exploring what makes dragons and gods magical, but have no idea how the standard Tyrian is magical. What does a commoner have to do to become any of the professions? What are skills?

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf. From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I totally agree. I used to have tons of fun in a game with a given set of professions, and each mob had one of those, and shared the same skill possibilities as the players. There even was a possibility to steal a skill from a dead champion enemy using a specific signet. It was the only way to get elites. I can’t remember the name of that game… Good old times.

May you be listened on the devs part.

I suggest clearing up your title and messaging to reflect your main concerns. Like..

Title- “Professions need cool skills like npcs”

Post- “I noticed such and such npcs with these cool skills, and it would be super to get more like these in the hands of professions as well…”

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

While I can see that it might be frustrating to see a mob which has a skill we cannot use, sometimes they need such advantages. After all, they cannot switch weapons, traits and utilities to counter particular player builds, while players can do so to counter mob builds.

This is irrelevant, you can’t swap on the fly in PvP either yet people do just fine with what they have.

Talk about irrelevant. This comment ignores that players who PvP seriously design a build with as much knowledge as possible of what they are likely to face. It also ignores that their opponents are doing the same thing. Thirdly, it ignores that the OP is talking about mobs in PvE, where ANet intends for players to change their builds to deal with different challenges.

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

As good as any other opinion.

I would prefer normalizing a NPC profession rogue type and a way to identify them in game. Increasing the productivity of destroying them would likely make them more popular.

I think lore is important here and I also think there are sound ways to approach NPCs with distinct skills. If the ability to use magic requires studying and practice then there are many ways to learn and use magic and weapon skills.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf.

I apologize then for misunderstanding your intent. I recommend you go back and edit the original post, because the text clearly says you don’t want the NPC skills to be stronger than that of the player’s. That’s a “nerf” by nearly anyone’s definition.

From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

I still can’t agree that there’s an “issue” with the design. Players are always going to better than the AI, so it makes sense to make them deadlier and more powerful, otherwise we will always adapt too quickly.

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I think this is horrid idea. Players are always going to perform better than the AI; we have an unfair advantage. I think it’s up to us to rise to the challenge of strong NPCs.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

You can’t adjust your build mid combat if I run up on you and engage in combat your build can’t be changed and your stuck the way you were prior. The whole build changing thing doesn’t even address the issue at all for instance no one is saying the npc’s can’t have different builds. Warrior NPC’s have different builds because they use different weapons. Running up on a hammer npc and one with a sword and shield is different because their builds are different but they still stay within the confines of their class.

We have non-humanoid and npc’s with legit lore reasons to surpass the limits but your basic mob/npc shouldn’t surpass that basic class limit.

If they kept Mesmers within their confines and used a preset scepter build with counters or a buff build for their allies they’d be much more difficult to deal with and provide some more depth with the combat. The complaints are mainly rooted in the immersion breaking nature of how things are done right now For instance would you rather have seen all those swords shooting out of the ground in Lake Doric or would you have preferred if those Mesmers were using glamours/wells/chaos storm instead? Also if those Mesmers with their health bars back to full were instead Necromancers using one of their many transformations and actual dbl health pool?

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Posted by: Djinn.9245

Djinn.9245

Me and my friends were just talking about this topic last night. Anet, please don’t create mobs that are supposed to be the same class as Player Characters but have abilities PCs don’t have (unless they are Boss mobs). It’s a lazy way to introduce challenge. Make a completely different mob if you want it to have different abilities. I don’t care that my characters can’t Trample like a centaur or Wing Buffet like a wyvern – my character doesn’t have 4 hooves or (non backpiece) wings. But I am irritated that Anet creates “Mesmer” trash mobs that have abilities my Mesmer does not.

And if you’re going to introduce named Player Class characters that have special abilities, let’s have a story about why or how they have those abilities!

it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol

(edited by Djinn.9245)

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Posted by: ThomasC.1056

ThomasC.1056

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

First of all, I would talk about encounters and not enemies because individual trash mobs aren’t that interesting in any case. And there’s a limit in the “stronger than we are” thing : it wouldn’t be enjoyable to be crushed at first blow

Now, when I think more about it, here’s an example of a system I enjoyed : GW1’s system. Mobs could “only do what I can do” : they had a profession, and a skillset that was a subset of the skill pool available to players. They often were bigger levels than the player too. Yet, they were running in packs with, say, one monk, one ranger, one mesmer, two warriors… Without a pinch of coordination and tactics, fights weren’t that easy.

Of course, it may have been a bit repetitive, but it was better than that design “Just toss a random amount of trash mobs on steroids” + “Add lots of CC to disable player’s ability to hit” we get currently. The issue is : GW1 had a profession system that GW2 has not. I mean : healers really could heal and protect, mesmers could hit far harder than retaliation or confusion etc. And it needs more IA programming.

Anyway, and to go back to that thread’s main purpose : in GW1, when a new skill was thought, designed, and put in game, it was both for players and mobs. In GW2, unfortunately, new skills are created only for mobs (expansions put aside of course), and to create a challenge that ends up tasting artificial, and leading to absurd power creep.


PS : I edited the thread title and part of my original post accordingly to suggestions, and I’m thankful for those who adressed them. I also wish to thank all those who are taking part in that thread in a polite and constructive way, even when some divergent opinions.

(edited by ThomasC.1056)

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

First of all, I would talk about encounters and not enemies because individual trash mobs aren’t that interesting in any case. And there’s a limit in the “stronger than we are” thing : it wouldn’t be enjoyable to be crushed at first blow

Now, when I think more about it, here’s an example of a system I enjoyed : GW1’s system. Mobs could “only do what I can do” : they had a profession, and a skillset that was a subset of the skill pool available to players. They often were bigger levels than the player too. Yet, they were running in packs with, say, one monk, one ranger, one mesmer, two warriors… Without a pinch of coordination and tactics, fights weren’t that easy.

Of course, it may have been a bit repetitive, but it was better than that design “Just toss a random amount of trash mobs on steroids” + “Add lots of CC to disable player’s ability to hit” we get currently. The issue is : GW1 had a profession system that GW2 has not. I mean : healers really could heal and protect, mesmers could hit far harder than retaliation or confusion etc. And it needs more IA programming.

Anyway, and to go back to that thread’s main purpose : in GW1, when a new skill was thought, designed, and put in game, it was both for players and mobs. In GW2, unfortunately, new skills are created only for mobs (expansions put aside of course), and to create a challenge that ends up tasting artificial, and leading to absurd power creep.


PS : I edited the thread title and part of my original post accordingly to suggestions, and I’m thankful for those who adressed them. I also wish to thank all those who are taking part in that thread in a polite and constructive way, even when some divergent opinions.

In GW, some mobs had skills that players did not have.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Monster_skill

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

First of all, I would talk about encounters and not enemies because individual trash mobs aren’t that interesting in any case. And there’s a limit in the “stronger than we are” thing : it wouldn’t be enjoyable to be crushed at first blow

Now, when I think more about it, here’s an example of a system I enjoyed : GW1’s system. Mobs could “only do what I can do” : they had a profession, and a skillset that was a subset of the skill pool available to players. They often were bigger levels than the player too. Yet, they were running in packs with, say, one monk, one ranger, one mesmer, two warriors… Without a pinch of coordination and tactics, fights weren’t that easy.

Of course, it may have been a bit repetitive, but it was better than that design “Just toss a random amount of trash mobs on steroids” + “Add lots of CC to disable player’s ability to hit” we get currently. The issue is : GW1 had a profession system that GW2 has not. I mean : healers really could heal and protect, mesmers could hit far harder than retaliation or confusion etc. And it needs more IA programming.

Anyway, and to go back to that thread’s main purpose : in GW1, when a new skill was thought, designed, and put in game, it was both for players and mobs. In GW2, unfortunately, new skills are created only for mobs (expansions put aside of course), and to create a challenge that ends up tasting artificial, and leading to absurd power creep.


PS : I edited the thread title and part of my original post accordingly to suggestions, and I’m thankful for those who adressed them. I also wish to thank all those who are taking part in that thread in a polite and constructive way, even when some divergent opinions.

In GW, some mobs had skills that players did not have.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Monster_skill

Those are monster skills it even says so in the link this isn’t about monster or inhuman skill sets its about class mobs.

The closest thing you’ll find on that list to a class skill is probably from Varesh who had an extra two eyes and was overflowing with abadons power thus lore reasons involved. Everything else can even by chopped up the racial abilities for each creature. In GW1 you can only play as human and humans of the same class stayed in the parameters set.

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

At least some of those monster skills are used by mobs who have a PC allowed class.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

While I don’t think its a challenge, nor do I think we need more weapon skills, I do agree that it can be frustrating to have the same weapon skills for years, and then see an NPC of the same class use a skill that we will never be able to use for balance reasons.

I understand and sympathize with OP, but I don’t necessarily see this as a problem.

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Posted by: Takashiro.8701

Takashiro.8701

I don’t get why it wouldn’t make sense for the npc’s to have stronger skills.
Yes, they have 1 or 2 skills that are stronger than PC skills. But that’s really all they have.

Try to switch it around and imagine you’re the npc fighting the pc, with their 40+ skills, while all you can do is put down a stronger portal or similar. The npc’s have probably “trained” just this one skill their whole life, while the pc can kind of do anything, so it makes sense that they can do this one or two skills better than you.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

It breaks immersion, hard. Here we have the PC who is the (now former) Pact Commander. A character that has taken down 2 elder dragons and fought side by side with some of the toughest characters in in-game lore. While the PC may not be the absolute best at their profession, they also are incredibly powerful. If they weren’t then all the struggles that we go through during the story would be meaningless, as literally anyone could have done the same thing.

So you have this character that is setup to be extremely powerful, and then some nobody, some mercenary comes up and we are expected to believe that they have abilities that the PC will never be able to master?

Mechanics wise I understand why we can never have these skills. But lore wise, this breaks immersion like nothing else does. If we are so kitten powerful, how come our PC mesmers can only cast a single mind stab at a time, whilst every white mantle mesmer can cast a solid 4-5 at once? How come the PC mesmers can’t have their illusions take the killing blows for them like every white mantle mesmer can? This just shatters immersion.

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf.

I apologize then for misunderstanding your intent. I recommend you go back and edit the original post, because the text clearly says you don’t want the NPC skills to be stronger than that of the player’s. That’s a “nerf” by nearly anyone’s definition.

From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

I still can’t agree that there’s an “issue” with the design. Players are always going to better than the AI, so it makes sense to make them deadlier and more powerful, otherwise we will always adapt too quickly.

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I think this is horrid idea. Players are always going to perform better than the AI; we have an unfair advantage. I think it’s up to us to rise to the challenge of strong NPCs.

Er… I don’t really have a horse in this race, but… come again? “Players are always going to perform better than the AI”? In what world? If you mean players will always have the potential to outsmart AI, sure. But that’s why games make mobs stupidly powerful, to compensate for how dumb they are, strategically. Even so, some of the mobs in this game aren’t exactly dumb or inept. Some of them are downright obnoxious and great at making a mockery of players.

Like Mordrem Snipers, for instance. In what fantasy world are players always going to perform better than them?

It’s actually not really beyond the capability of developers in this day and age to program AI that can give players a really hard time, without being much more powerful than them. And I don’t see why it should be a bad thing if there’s room for the player to figure out how to outsmart the AI’s tricks and take it down a lot more easily than they were doing prior. I mean, what’s the alternative? Being required to have more people along because the mob was given uber powers? Where’s the strategy in that?

It seems the fear is that the mobs will be too easy and therefore people will get bored and disgruntled about it. But I don’t see how uber powers is some sort of carte blanche answer to that.

I doubt it’s even true in practice. I think what keeps people entertained is more complicated than that.

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: Mikkel.8427

Mikkel.8427

The white mantle from lake doric really didn’t bother me. They just used a slower AoE mind stab. The whole second HP bar thing was annoying, but whatever.

When I got to the mercenaries in Draconis Mons, I literally stood up and backed away from my computer when the mercenary Mesmer used a confusion stacking unload on me. Mesmers have been asking for main hand pistols since the launch of this game. Seeing them finally give it to some trash mob Mesmer NPCs did make me a little upset.

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

At least some of those monster skills are used by mobs who have a PC allowed class.

Yeah but not the race even titans and destroyers had PC allowed classes

Destroyers in Gw2 barely do anything and are really sad but in Gw1 they had heft

Destroyer of Hope, Sinew, Lives, Thoughts, Deeds, Bones, Hordes, Flesh, Compassion, Souls, and Earth are all various types.

Many of those are warrior class but its a different race completely than the players could command so they had additional destroyer skills to go along with their class skills. In GW1 a human warrior npc had access to the human warrior toolbox but something like a Naga or Critter had racial touches added in.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

You can’t adjust your build mid combat if I run up on you and engage in combat your build can’t be changed and your stuck the way you were prior. The whole build changing thing doesn’t even address the issue at all for instance no one is saying the npc’s can’t have different builds. Warrior NPC’s have different builds because they use different weapons. Running up on a hammer npc and one with a sword and shield is different because their builds are different but they still stay within the confines of their class.

We have non-humanoid and npc’s with legit lore reasons to surpass the limits but your basic mob/npc shouldn’t surpass that basic class limit.

If they kept Mesmers within their confines and used a preset scepter build with counters or a buff build for their allies they’d be much more difficult to deal with and provide some more depth with the combat. The complaints are mainly rooted in the immersion breaking nature of how things are done right now For instance would you rather have seen all those swords shooting out of the ground in Lake Doric or would you have preferred if those Mesmers were using glamours/wells/chaos storm instead? Also if those Mesmers with their health bars back to full were instead Necromancers using one of their many transformations and actual dbl health pool?

Yes but I can go back and try again with a different build and NPCs can’t do that.

Some people want to be able to beat everything on the first try with the build they have. I couldn’t do it in Guild Wars 1 and I can’t do it here…and that’s okay.

Not everything should fall to the same build. In fact, it was harder in some ways in Guild Wars 1, because undead were immune to bleeding, poison and disease, and if you had those you were screwed. You’d have to go back and try again.

An NPC is static. It can never change what it does. Your job as a player is to figure out how to beat it, not beat it automatically.

This is why HoT bothered so many people. They had to learn how to deal with things that they hadn’t had to deal with before. Some would say that’s what games are all about.

I think if my build and my skill set just kept killing different stuff over and over again, this game would be very boring.

Not to mention you don’t even have to die. If you try something and see it’s not working you can break off, the NPC can leash, and you can change your build and try again., I’ve done that many times.

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Posted by: Djinn.9245

Djinn.9245

It breaks immersion, hard. Here we have the PC who is the (now former) Pact Commander. A character that has taken down 2 elder dragons and fought side by side with some of the toughest characters in in-game lore. While the PC may not be the absolute best at their profession, they also are incredibly powerful. If they weren’t then all the struggles that we go through during the story would be meaningless, as literally anyone could have done the same thing.

So you have this character that is setup to be extremely powerful, and then some nobody, some mercenary comes up and we are expected to believe that they have abilities that the PC will never be able to master?

Mechanics wise I understand why we can never have these skills. But lore wise, this breaks immersion like nothing else does. If we are so kitten powerful, how come our PC mesmers can only cast a single mind stab at a time, whilst every white mantle mesmer can cast a solid 4-5 at once? How come the PC mesmers can’t have their illusions take the killing blows for them like every white mantle mesmer can? This just shatters immersion.

This is exactly my issue.

I think for the White Mantle, what Anet should have done is given them a “White Mantle Mastery Line” so they had some completely different powers that the PC can’t ever get because they were discovered / developed by the White Mantle. The White Mantle even has different Character Classes like the Cleric. So this would fit the story and still give the White Mantle powers that we don’t have.

it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol

(edited by Djinn.9245)

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Posted by: Djinn.9245

Djinn.9245

, some of the mobs in this game aren’t exactly dumb or inept. Some of them are downright obnoxious and great at making a mockery of players.

Like Mordrem Snipers, for instance.

The Assassin frogs in HoT are very nasty also.

it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

It breaks immersion, hard. Here we have the PC who is the (now former) Pact Commander. A character that has taken down 2 elder dragons and fought side by side with some of the toughest characters in in-game lore. While the PC may not be the absolute best at their profession, they also are incredibly powerful. If they weren’t then all the struggles that we go through during the story would be meaningless, as literally anyone could have done the same thing.

So you have this character that is setup to be extremely powerful, and then some nobody, some mercenary comes up and we are expected to believe that they have abilities that the PC will never be able to master?

Mechanics wise I understand why we can never have these skills. But lore wise, this breaks immersion like nothing else does. If we are so kitten powerful, how come our PC mesmers can only cast a single mind stab at a time, whilst every white mantle mesmer can cast a solid 4-5 at once? How come the PC mesmers can’t have their illusions take the killing blows for them like every white mantle mesmer can? This just shatters immersion.

This is exactly my issue.

I think for the White Mantle, what Anet should have done is given them a “White Mantle Mastery Line” so they had some completely different powers that the PC can’t ever get because they were discovered / developed by the White Mantle. The White Mantle even has different Character Classes like the Cleric. So this would fit the story and still give the White Mantle powers that we don’t have.

Does it break Tyrian world and lore immersion or violate a type of player role playing narrative? I think it is the later. We don’t have any lore describing how profession skills are discovered/invented and then propagated to break immersion with.

I think this is a genuine weakness. I experience this absence of commoner, functional, every day lore as a lack of Tyrian genuineness that grows more pronounced the more top heavy and inflated the story gets.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

(edited by Psientist.6437)

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

if you’re talking about mesmer NPC skills that you want then noone holds a candle to Countess Anise imho!
the last mission in the early human story when you’re confronted by 20+ soldiers and she casually summons an illusionary army to fight them XD

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

They can’t make a challenging encounter with those skills, because of the limitations of NPC scripting.

That said the forums would explode with QQ if ArenaNet ever implemented a mob with half the DPS of a player.

Sanity is for the weak minded.
YouTube

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf.

I apologize then for misunderstanding your intent. I recommend you go back and edit the original post, because the text clearly says you don’t want the NPC skills to be stronger than that of the player’s. That’s a “nerf” by nearly anyone’s definition.

From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

I still can’t agree that there’s an “issue” with the design. Players are always going to better than the AI, so it makes sense to make them deadlier and more powerful, otherwise we will always adapt too quickly.

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I think this is horrid idea. Players are always going to perform better than the AI; we have an unfair advantage. I think it’s up to us to rise to the challenge of strong NPCs.

Er… I don’t really have a horse in this race, but… come again? “Players are always going to perform better than the AI”? In what world? If you mean players will always have the potential to outsmart AI, sure. But that’s why games make mobs stupidly powerful, to compensate for how dumb they are, strategically. Even so, some of the mobs in this game aren’t exactly dumb or inept. Some of them are downright obnoxious and great at making a mockery of players.

Like Mordrem Snipers, for instance. In what fantasy world are players always going to perform better than them?

It’s actually not really beyond the capability of developers in this day and age to program AI that can give players a really hard time, without being much more powerful than them. And I don’t see why it should be a bad thing if there’s room for the player to figure out how to outsmart the AI’s tricks and take it down a lot more easily than they were doing prior. I mean, what’s the alternative? Being required to have more people along because the mob was given uber powers? Where’s the strategy in that?

It seems the fear is that the mobs will be too easy and therefore people will get bored and disgruntled about it. But I don’t see how uber powers is some sort of carte blanche answer to that.

I doubt it’s even true in practice. I think what keeps people entertained is more complicated than that.

The point is that there is no design reason to restrict mobs from having non-player skills, including skills that are more powerful than ones that players can obtain.

You’re absolutely correct that what makes combat interesting is more complicated than any single design choice. However, the topic of the OP is one particular design choice — they weren’t saying here’s how to holistically make encounters more interesting; they were saying how they didn’t like mobs having special skills.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

If "players want more skills’ is a truism, then it is also a truism that the gap between player ability and NPC ability will always grow. Both truisms demand a design strategy and a studio asset allocation strategy.

If the studio intends to ensure that encounters remain challenging and interesting (not just “harder”), then giving common and named NPCs unique skills has advantages. A design strategy where NPC builds are limited to being a subset of the PC definition of professions will deliver a finite number of possible builds. As builds are consumed, the supply remaining will be more difficult for AI to play and more expensive to develop. As well, players become more proficient with professions and the bar for interesting encounters rises. This is most pronounced and develops fastest when like fights like, when a PC mesmer fights a NPC mesmer. The ‘NPC builds as a subset of PC professions’ strategy chases diminishing returns.

The ‘NPCs have access to unique skills’ strategy also suffers from diminishing returns but at a much lesser rate. This strategy allows any unique skill or attribute or PC nonconforming use, to act as a NPC build design multiplier, dramatically increasing the potential number of interesting or challenging encounter designs. This strategy also delivers a type of surprise and interest that the PC conforming strategy can not. Using both strategies lets each multiply the productivity of the other.

If the studio is working on an expansion and that expansion includes new PC skills, then the studio has more ideas for unique skills and combinations then they know what to with. There is likely no such thing as assigning studio assets to specifically design a PC nonconforming skill for NPCs, those skills are a byproduct of designing PC conforming skills. If I were designing new profession concepts, I would want to test those concepts in game. Nonconforming builds for NPCs may be doing just that.

And let’s stop comparing a game that had sandbox professions as a design pillar with one that does not. That pillar is the foundation of GW1’s profession design approach and holding GW2 to it is unreasonable and impractical.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf.

I apologize then for misunderstanding your intent. I recommend you go back and edit the original post, because the text clearly says you don’t want the NPC skills to be stronger than that of the player’s. That’s a “nerf” by nearly anyone’s definition.

From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

I still can’t agree that there’s an “issue” with the design. Players are always going to better than the AI, so it makes sense to make them deadlier and more powerful, otherwise we will always adapt too quickly.

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I think this is horrid idea. Players are always going to perform better than the AI; we have an unfair advantage. I think it’s up to us to rise to the challenge of strong NPCs.

Er… I don’t really have a horse in this race, but… come again? “Players are always going to perform better than the AI”? In what world? If you mean players will always have the potential to outsmart AI, sure. But that’s why games make mobs stupidly powerful, to compensate for how dumb they are, strategically. Even so, some of the mobs in this game aren’t exactly dumb or inept. Some of them are downright obnoxious and great at making a mockery of players.

Like Mordrem Snipers, for instance. In what fantasy world are players always going to perform better than them?

It’s actually not really beyond the capability of developers in this day and age to program AI that can give players a really hard time, without being much more powerful than them. And I don’t see why it should be a bad thing if there’s room for the player to figure out how to outsmart the AI’s tricks and take it down a lot more easily than they were doing prior. I mean, what’s the alternative? Being required to have more people along because the mob was given uber powers? Where’s the strategy in that?

It seems the fear is that the mobs will be too easy and therefore people will get bored and disgruntled about it. But I don’t see how uber powers is some sort of carte blanche answer to that.

I doubt it’s even true in practice. I think what keeps people entertained is more complicated than that.

The point is that there is no design reason to restrict mobs from having non-player skills, including skills that are more powerful than ones that players can obtain.

You’re absolutely correct that what makes combat interesting is more complicated than any single design choice. However, the topic of the OP is one particular design choice — they weren’t saying here’s how to holistically make encounters more interesting; they were saying how they didn’t like mobs having special skills.

I spent about five minutes thinking about scenarios where this wouldn’t be true and I already thought of one. Having mobs that are limited to what the player has could be a strong design choice for teaching the player about how their class works and what its limitations are. You make the players face themselves and they will get sparks of ideas from how the NPC plays and what strategies they use.

So that is already one design reason out of the “none” that you say exist.

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

Ponder the existence of the enemy NPC; commoner, abomination, ranked, or any other. Wanting only to fight a hero, they howl on their leashes as hero speed past. Must be a PoI is close! Offer them however many conformist skills and builds there are and the only ones they will want are ccs and surprise attacks.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

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Posted by: Psientist.6437

Psientist.6437

I spent about five minutes thinking about scenarios where this wouldn’t be true and I already thought of one. Having mobs that are limited to what the player has could be a strong design choice for teaching the player about how their class works and what its limitations are. You make the players face themselves and they will get sparks of ideas from how the NPC plays and what strategies they use.

So that is already one design reason out of the “none” that you say exist.

You describe a genuine advantage of using conformist builds for NPCs and there are many conformist NPCs. This advantage shrinks as a player becomes more proficient.

Nonconformist builds offer a similar challenge or opportunity to learn. Nonconformist builds do offer the unexpected.

I don’t think the arguments for either is stronger then the one for both.

“No! You can’t eat the ones that talk!
They’re special! They got aspirations.”
Finn the human

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

It would be more immersion breaking, for me, if the game were to state that no other person in the entire world could possibly have developed more or different knowledge of a field of endeavor than I. The idea that my character must have the entirety of all current knowledge of a field of magic, such as mesmerism, everything studied and learned by every scholar on the continent, every possible variation or idiosycratic approach to magic, is by far more immersion breaking than the idea that a group that does not choose to share their secrets with me might have developed a trick or two that I have not.

…all of that said….

More skills please.

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

The big difference between GW1 and GW2 design is that (excluding dungeons, fractals, raids, and PvP), the number of PCs involved in an encounter can be 1 or 100, with haphazard organization at best. GW1 parties were normally a fixed size and operating (ideally) as a unified team.

As much as I would like to see enemies in instanced content act more like players (I particularly liked that Nightmare Court had a downed state), open world is sort of a lost cause.

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

I spent about five minutes thinking about scenarios where this wouldn’t be true and I already thought of one. Having mobs that are limited to what the player has could be a strong design choice for teaching the player about how their class works and what its limitations are. You make the players face themselves and they will get sparks of ideas from how the NPC plays and what strategies they use.

So that is already one design reason out of the “none” that you say exist.

You describe a genuine advantage of using conformist builds for NPCs and there are many conformist NPCs. This advantage shrinks as a player becomes more proficient.

Nonconformist builds offer a similar challenge or opportunity to learn. Nonconformist builds do offer the unexpected.

I don’t think the arguments for either is stronger then the one for both.

The person I was responding to said, “there is no design reason to restrict mobs from having non-player skills.” I gave a design reason why it might be beneficial in some circumstances. That was the point of what I said.

As for the tangent you’re going in, you’re missing the point of the point I was making. My point was, the player can potentially learn about their own class through seeing an NPC use it. Learning from an NPC that is much different from them is not the same kind of learning opportunity, even if it can be a learning opportunity.

Offering a challenge is something different. That requires more ongoing variety, sure. But the octovine isn’t exactly changing his mechanics each time either. So it’s not as though having unique abilities means the player will be presented with a unique challenge each time they fight the same mob. It just means there’ll be more mobs in the game that have unique mechanics.

Or words to that effect.

Professions need cool new skills like NPCs

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

My biggest “I want that!” is the Mesmers in Bloodstone Fen.

They are invulnerable (and unspottable) while their illusion (singular) is up. Once defeated they come out of stealth, cannot trivially re-stealth, and can be easily killed.

Done properly this is exactly how I thought a Mesmer would be: fragile, but very very difficult to nail down.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

Professions need cool new skills like NPCs

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

My biggest “I want that!” is the Mesmers in Bloodstone Fen.

They are invulnerable (and unspottable) while their illusion (singular) is up. Once defeated they come out of stealth, cannot trivially re-stealth, and can be easily killed.

Done properly this is exactly how I thought a Mesmer would be: fragile, but very very difficult to nail down.

Let’s not forget the AoE of AoE Mind Stabs. I mean, why bother aiming, right?

Actually, can I just have playable Bristlebacks? I’d like to do fatal damage over 5 seconds that exceeds the length of any dodge or block in the game. :\

I’ll also need a breakbar, because Stability is obviously inferior.

Snark aside, I don’t feel like the enemies need overpowered skills to make an impact. Making them roughly equivalent to a larger number of player-equivalent skills modified by special traits and giving those skills proper cooldowns (instead of using dash-KD spam every 3 seconds…) would more impactful, and that gives players a way to better influence the battle with CC, especially chills and interrupts.

For example, as much as they annoy the kitten out of me, WM Clerics are built appropriately as Guardians. The chasing blind/burning, the nigh constant blocks and healing . . GRR. But it makes me hate them in a way that a tank in any other MMO would. I want to kill them first, which means risking the attacks of the cleric’s allies.
So yeah, I hate WM clerics. Well done, ANet.
I feel like the WM mesmers are off base. I don’t mind their perma-stealth, but that’s not how they actually exist. They just have two separate health bars, and it makes them annoying in a different, less lore-appropriate way. If I pop an AoE skill, they should get hit by it, but sadly, they don’t. But, I guess I can still accept them, overall.
And that’s a huge change from base-HoT mobs. Most relied on excessive damage or one-note cheap mechanics, so it’s great to see the White Mantle enemies bring back some much-needed variety and complexity.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632