Guild Wars 2

I’ve postet this in the german forums and was greated with little to no constructive feedback.
Maybe my approach wasn’t good enough, maybe i explained myself poorly.
Still, i wan’t to try this again here.

My proposal is this:

Make the old class mechanics elite specs in their own regard.

This comes from a few simple thoughts.

In-universe, for example, it doesn’t quite make sense that a Berserker, someone using rage and primal power, would also be able to stay calm and collected (Discipline).
Someone like a Daredevil, who’s more about getting in, kicking butt and basically being the swashbuckling center of a fight shouldn’t also be the intricate thief.

In any story you’d consider such people Mary-Sues.

In terms of balance this comes from a few other things.
First and foremost: When it was announced that GW2 would have a system that does not include dual-classes the named reason was that balancing such a system is quite a hassle.
You have to not only consider each class, but each class in conjuction with every other.

Yet now we basically have a dual-class system.

A lot, not all but a lot, of the current problems (like each person playing basically the same exact build on every character) could be solved if the core classes were classes in their own right again.

You could balance elite-specs more on their own grounds and going core would be a more distinct choice again as you could buff and nerf their mechanics on their own.

Yes, this would mean that there’d have to be quite a big rework of some things but in the long run, it should be worth it.

Would there be builds that suffer? Sure.
But look at it like this:
The proposed role of a chronomancer is direct AoE-Damage and team support.
While a core mesmer is more about conditions and intricate control, he has support-ish abilities but they are not quite his forte.

Why now is it that a chronomancer should be able to be the more effective condi-mesmer than the core class?

Anyway, i stated my case and i hope i made better arguments this time.

I agree with the idea that the old tree lines should be given the Specialization treatment, as in, when you select this tree, you get some auto unlocks.

Lets take warrior for example and berserker since you used it. By taking it, you unlock torch (note, something like unlocking a new weapon set SHOULDN’T be tied to reworking the old trait trees! Leave all of original weapons as is! Nor with abilities as Berserker gets the rage ones. Everything stays unlocked as is in the core game!).

But what you also unlock is a secondary ability tied to adrenaline and changing how the burst skill functions in that state. Neat. Now, lets apply that thought process to the old trait lines.

Take Discipline for example. When you take it, that first minor gives you multiple things, like fast hands immediately, Banners last longer, or have reduced cast time, etc.

Or even take Arms for example, where weilding a weapon modifies the attacks somehow.

Sure, some of the stuff could be just minor traits being squeezed into one one chosen, but at least that would also open up the traitlines then for some more interesting minors or even majors, instead of just “increase damage by 10%”

I agree for the simple fact that the elite classes now trump the rest.

The games supposed to be about playing your way, but when you know you should take a certain core or your sub-par really defeats the whole purpose of equal diversity, because now you dont have it, just the illusion of having it.

Firstly, I don’t really agree with your lore reasoning about the core specs. Who are you to say someone can’t be disciplined as well as someone who utilizes wrath when the moment arises? Or that the berserker is losing control at all and not using extreme discipline to channel his rage for specialized purposes? Not only that but this line of thought falls completely flat for practically every other profession like necro, mesmer and ele which would have no qualms using arcane of any other element with tempest or being a duelist or inspirational or chaotic with chrono.

That being said, the base premise of the idea has merit. Not only is it rather messed up that the core specs are overshadowed in many ways by the elite specs but the game does lack a spark of variety in builds.

So how would you change this, OP? You didn’t really post any concrete suggestions to being the discussion.

If I were making a suggestion for this it would go something like this:
- a distinction between “Specialization” and “Trait Generalization”. At any given time, from the point you unlock traits, you must have 1 Specialization. After that, you can have 2 trait gens.
- your first choice in traits then becomes your Specialization. When elite specs unlock, they are only usable as a Specialization, not a trait Generalization.
- trait gens work like the core specs now. Specializations work like elite specs now with some differences.
- elite specs are different because they unlock weapons and new utilities as well as profession mechanics. Regular specializations offer enhanced versions of utilities and profession mechanics.

For example, if you specialize in Tactics as a warrior, not only do your banners last longer but you get unique banner effects that can stack with other non-tactics spec banners and their burst skills are replaced with combo skills don’t spend adrenaline, but instead builds it so you can perform a powerful supportive action at the end of the combo.

If I weren’t on my phone I could elaborates and brainstorm more ideas but what do you think should happen?

I like the idea, and I would LOVE to have 5 different spec mechanics to choose (Engie will at least gain 1 new weapon, to have 1 for every spec, wich would be awesome), but I think it is impractical.

If well done, it would be like adding 5 new elite spec to every proffession. So it would imply tons and tons of work, not only creating the new mechanics, but balancing them.

If done wrong, they would be boring or broken… Various actual Elite Specs already suffer from that. Multiply that by 5 times.

On the one hand, it would make a lot of sense from the mechanics side of things if the “core mechanic” line was a specialization.

This would allow massive changes in the resource mechanics of professions through elite specs, imagine completely replacing thief initiative or warrior rage. This could only work if only one trait line directly influenced that system. You’d have Trickery for thieves being the only line that modified/addressed initiative for instance, so that you could swap it out with another mechanic with, say, “gunslinger” and “ammo” in stead.

However!

The classes aren’t really designed this way. Most classes have their core mechanic altered or modified by multiple lines. in order to really get a good, balanced version of “core line as an elite spec” you’d have to massively rework almost every trait line in the game to support that system.

Not only that, but it wouldn’t make balancing elite specs that much different, and it would actively hurt build diversity by giving people less overall combinations in total.

I think the elite spec system is good and a nice way to easily balance adding “subclass” mechanics compared to the nightmare balance of the GW1 dual class system, but I don’t think there’s much to be gained by adding this restriction when the plan is that all elite specs are balanced with potential access to all of the core lines anyway.

PopeUrban.2578:

On the one hand, it would make a lot of sense from the mechanics side of things if the “core mechanic” line was a specialization.

This would allow massive changes in the resource mechanics of professions through elite specs, imagine completely replacing thief initiative or warrior rage. This could only work if only one trait line directly influenced that system. You’d have Trickery for thieves being the only line that modified/addressed initiative for instance, so that you could swap it out with another mechanic with, say, “gunslinger” and “ammo” in stead.

However!

The classes aren’t really designed this way. Most classes have their core mechanic altered or modified by multiple lines. in order to really get a good, balanced version of “core line as an elite spec” you’d have to massively rework almost every trait line in the game to support that system.

Not only that, but it wouldn’t make balancing elite specs that much different, and it would actively hurt build diversity by giving people less overall combinations in total.

I think the elite spec system is good and a nice way to easily balance adding “subclass” mechanics compared to the nightmare balance of the GW1 dual class system, but I don’t think there’s much to be gained by adding this restriction when the plan is that all elite specs are balanced with potential access to all of the core lines anyway.

The problem is that apparently the restrictions that we have aren’t enough to bring the elite-specs in line with the core classes, especially because they have access to the core-mechanic-line as well.

We are currently in a balance nightmare like the GW1 dual class system.
It’s not as bad as it was back in the day but it’s a close second and that sucks.

Again, this is only a proposal, an idea.
It’s not completely thought through, it’s maybe not even a good idea but it’s more than has been done by A-Net so far to make us feel good about the core classes again.

Even if more and more elite-specs show up, this shouldn’t mean that the core classes get left behind.
They are part of the game and should feel like it.

Hell, a lot of things could even be fixed with a few simple number changes (Virtue of Justice (active) could give 2-3 stacks of burning per ally-attack instead of 1) or a rework of a few skills (like the core Deathshroud).

PS: This is not to say that i dislike the Spec-System. I like the idea quite a lot, i really do, but just because i like something doesn’t mean i have to hold back criticism on actual flaws.

I would say the best way to make the non-specialisations matter is to make Racial skills matter. Meaning that they become full elites – that are NOT available if you select the Specialisation trait.

Or take a page from GW1 and give a stats bonus if you don’t have an elite spec equipped.

sooo a druid cant be a beastmaster and a tempest cant go into arcana magic? meh, why put more limitations on build diversity

Vukorep.3081:

sooo a druid cant be a beastmaster and a tempest cant go into arcana magic? meh, why put more limitations on build diversity

Because the current state sure is about build diversity. Tell me again, how did every chronomancer/tempest/reaper/revenant in the ESL look?
Yeah… build diversity.

People seem to confuse differentiation and limitations quite a lot in this game.
Because the first we need to get actual diversity in builds

Seeking meta diversity is a good idea in theory. However, the builds accepted by players as “the best/meta” are not going to increase with your change. There will be one acceptable build depending on the role the character is expected to play. It’s an impossible task to promote a meta climate where many specs are going to be considered meta within a given role — whether they actually are competitive or not.

Real diversity, on the other hand, involves the availability of a greater number of viable options. Making the profession mechanic trait line an elite spec would reduce real diversity. It might impact meta considerations established by players. It isn’t going to affect the number of specs considered meta.

ANet has reworked traits multiple times. Doing so is not a trivial undertaking. In fact, they’ve spent a lot of dev time doing so. They’ve also reworked a bunch of other stuff, the most recent of those was the Hot revamp. Others include the NPE and the behind-the-scenes work to support the China release.

It seems like it’s getting to the point where “good enough” should actually be good enough. I believe dev resources need to be focused more on new things to do than on revising systems over and over. Would your system be better? Maybe. However I think GW2 is at a point where the better is the enemy of the good.

While I find your idea interesting, I’m not sure it’s needed. Were I ANet, I’d want to leave balance to the balance team rather than undertaking a massive game rework yet again.

Ardid.7203:

I like the idea, and I would LOVE to have 5 different spec mechanics to choose (Engie will at least gain 1 new weapon, to have 1 for every spec, wich would be awesome), but I think it is impractical.

If well done, it would be like adding 5 new elite spec to every proffession. So it would imply tons and tons of work, not only creating the new mechanics, but balancing them.

If done wrong, they would be boring or broken… Various actual Elite Specs already suffer from that. Multiply that by 5 times.

Yeah, it certainly might be like adding 5 new elite specs per profession and yeah it would be a lot of extra work but things like this shouldn’t be viewed as entry costs to implement, simply disadvantages IF implemented. Beyond having pros and cons like that, it should be up to the devs if allocating resources for something should be worthwhile or not.

PopeUrban.2578:

On the one hand, it would make a lot of sense from the mechanics side of things if the “core mechanic” line was a specialization.

This would allow massive changes in the resource mechanics of professions through elite specs, imagine completely replacing thief initiative or warrior rage. This could only work if only one trait line directly influenced that system. You’d have Trickery for thieves being the only line that modified/addressed initiative for instance, so that you could swap it out with another mechanic with, say, “gunslinger” and “ammo” in stead.

However!

The classes aren’t really designed this way. Most classes have their core mechanic altered or modified by multiple lines. in order to really get a good, balanced version of “core line as an elite spec” you’d have to massively rework almost every trait line in the game to support that system.

Well, you’re sort of over reaching the idea a bit. Consider Base Thief vs Daredevil. It doesn’t swap Initiative for anything, it just adds an extra dodge + some skills. Prospecting specs don’t have to completely replace anything, just add a dimension or perk.

I’d say such an idea should have a lean on enhancing specific utilities as well, like Thief Shadow Arts Specialization could enhance Venoms in some way (like working similar to Mantras so preparing your venoms allow you to reapply them several times or something) while Trickery Specialization could give you 2 more ‘steal slots’ instead.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Vukorep.3081:

sooo a druid cant be a beastmaster and a tempest cant go into arcana magic? meh, why put more limitations on build diversity

Because the current state sure is about build diversity. Tell me again, how did every chronomancer/tempest/reaper/revenant in the ESL look?
Yeah… build diversity.

People seem to confuse differentiation and limitations quite a lot in this game.
Because the first we need to get actual diversity in builds

So instead of doing something to promote that multiple build usage, you design more restrictions to further limit the number of viable builds which may mean instead of more builds per class being used, more people go to classes where their preferred play style still has a viable build.

So if the restructuring causes the Elementalist to not be able to do playstyle A anymore, a player who prefers playstyle A will go to a class that is able to do playstyle A still.

This suggestion will more likely just cause less variety of classes than players using more than one build.

And given the definition of meta, there will not be more than one or two builds in any class that is the meta for a specific role in a specific type of content. Because meta means best at what it is does. No matter what you do.

splitting the Core off into its own Elite could make for some interesting ideas. For one, you could go 3 ways, Core Elite, HoT Elite, or a mix on both. But then comes the power creep here.

It would be so much work for Anet to get this done though. and they would have to add 1 new Trait Line to every class too to make it balanced around what is currently there or rework the traits entirely from the ground up for the core classes.

But I do like the idea, and I think it would add some separation between Core and elite players. Instead of what we have right now.

LouWolfskin.3492:

I’ve postet this in the german forums and was greated with little to no constructive feedback.
Maybe my approach wasn’t good enough, maybe i explained myself poorly.
Still, i wan’t to try this again here.

My proposal is this:

Make the old class mechanics elite specs in their own regard.

This comes from a few simple thoughts.

In-universe, for example, it doesn’t quite make sense that a Berserker, someone using rage and primal power, would also be able to stay calm and collected (Discipline).
Someone like a Daredevil, who’s more about getting in, kicking butt and basically being the swashbuckling center of a fight shouldn’t also be the intricate thief.

In any story you’d consider such people Mary-Sues.

In terms of balance this comes from a few other things.
First and foremost: When it was announced that GW2 would have a system that does not include dual-classes the named reason was that balancing such a system is quite a hassle.
You have to not only consider each class, but each class in conjuction with every other.

Yet now we basically have a dual-class system.

A lot, not all but a lot, of the current problems (like each person playing basically the same exact build on every character) could be solved if the core classes were classes in their own right again.

You could balance elite-specs more on their own grounds and going core would be a more distinct choice again as you could buff and nerf their mechanics on their own.

Yes, this would mean that there’d have to be quite a big rework of some things but in the long run, it should be worth it.

Would there be builds that suffer? Sure.
But look at it like this:
The proposed role of a chronomancer is direct AoE-Damage and team support.
While a core mesmer is more about conditions and intricate control, he has support-ish abilities but they are not quite his forte.

Why now is it that a chronomancer should be able to be the more effective condi-mesmer than the core class?

Anyway, i stated my case and i hope i made better arguments this time.

This isn’t going to happen. They’re not going to change the new build system. Every individual class is supposed to be self-sufficient. That’s why we all have one heal spell, etc etc. We just have to accept it, and move on.