Guild Wars 2

Dude….it’s about ascended ARMOR. Keep the argument at what it started as: ARMOR

I tried doing fractals with only exotics once. I died.

A discussion about vertical progression?

This is sooo November 2012.

We have vertical progression, it will stay. No matter if you don’t like it or don’t see it, it will stay anyways.

Stop the denial, start the grind – for the children I say.

PattyCakeChamp.5268:

Ashen.2907:

PattyCakeChamp.5268:

Anet has already begun to address the issue with ascended/ vertical progression directly with a CDI.

Does ascended gear still exist ?

Has there been any indication from Anet ni the CDI thread(s) that ascended gear will be removed from the game ?

The issue still exists.

Look at my post, now look at the op, now back at mine. Now look at yours. I’m saying this specific thread is someone who decided they were angry and posted absolutely nothing of productive conversation about the issue. THAT is why this is a dead horse. If he/she had opened the thread with some meaningful discussion points sure. That is not the case. Threads like this should be dumped. Its the same complaints from a different person

With all due respect, we are free to repeat the same message as many times as we want until its fixed. :P

KyleMcLaw.8974:

Dude….it’s about ascended ARMOR. Keep the argument at what it started as: ARMOR

You don’t take being proven wrong well do you.

Last I checked this was not just about armor but ascended in general.

You NEED ascended to do a level 50 fractal as well as a 49 fractal.

You can’t do either in just exotics as you keep posting. You were the person who posted all content in this game can be done in just exotics – Not me.

Please just stop – your logic is flawed and wrong.

Rings are ascended last I checked as well to hit your numbers so are the back pieces.

Also, Ascended gear in general is vertical progression – like it or not that was why so many people complained when it was released.

It’s REQUIRED to do fractals at a certain level and there is NO WAY AROUND IT.

PattyCakeChamp.5268:

Why do people insist on posting these topics still? Anet has already begun to address the issue with ascended/ vertical progression directly with a CDI. Regardless of what your views on it are, its not providing constructive criticism.

Addressed it by slightly raising the drop rate of weapons from nothing to nothing and adding the chance for armor to drop too which equally never happens?

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

To be fair I have no issue with vertical progression at all.

Quite frankly I think it would actually be a good idea in this game as it gives players more to invest in and do as long as there are systems to allows people who fall behind to keep up or catch up. Many games have done this well and many games have failed miserably at it.

The larger issue I have is the vertical progression we have aka ascended gear – Is absolutely worthless outside of fractals. It needs to be more rewarding for the amount of work involved in crafting it.

Once again Ill bring up my suggestion:

Allow Ascended gear to have the ability to switch stats like Legendary – except give ascended gear a much longer cool down. Perhaps 3 days to switch again or something to that effect.

This way Legendary is still top tier with the ability to switch at will out of combat and ascended has more worth then just for fractals.

KyleMcLaw.8974:

There is not a need for ascended armor. All content can be done with exo armor. If exo armor was a grind, then I’d agree. But since I have 8 80s, 7 full exo, 1 full ascended and do all content, then I can not agree with this. Get your exo and enjoy the game. If you want to change gear, get new exos. There is a huge difference between NEED and WANT; which, OP has a WANT not a NEED.

With all due respect, I find it very ironic that the people who said players can finish the game and Living Story with Masterwork gear are also the most die hard defenders of vertical progression.

If you are such an awesome player with Masterwork gear, what benefits do you get from Ascended gear? If there is no benefit to you personally, why do you want it?

NEED and WANT? It seems people like these are the biggest offender of this exact problem. Look again:

-You only NEED Masterwork gear because you are so awesome.
-You WANT Ascended gear because…..I don’t even know why you want this. If I am that good I will totally run in Masterwork gear all day, WvW, Fractuals 49+, etc, to prove how awesome I am.

CHIPS.6018:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

There is not a need for ascended armor. All content can be done with exo armor. If exo armor was a grind, then I’d agree. But since I have 8 80s, 7 full exo, 1 full ascended and do all content, then I can not agree with this. Get your exo and enjoy the game. If you want to change gear, get new exos. There is a huge difference between NEED and WANT; which, OP has a WANT not a NEED.

With all due respect, I find it very ironic that the people who said players can finish the game and Living Story with Masterwork gear are also the most die hard defenders of vertical progression.

If you are such an awesome player with Masterwork gear, what benefits do you get from Ascended gear? If there is no benefit to you personally, why do you want it?

NEED and WANT? It seems people like these are the biggest offender of this exact problem. Look again:

-You only NEED Masterwork gear because you are so awesome.
-You WANT Ascended gear because…..I don’t even know why you want this. If I am that good I will totally run in Masterwork gear all day, WvW, Fractuals 49+, etc, to prove how awesome I am.

FoM 50 can be done with masterwork ARMOR as well. Look at post above. I WANT ascended and exo because i have the spare dungeon tokens + mats + coin to make it. I don’t stress over ascended ARMOR on my alts because it’s a WANT and not a NEED

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

Is that how you try to win all your arguments via semantics?

I will help you – You NEED ascended gear to do fractals which is vertical progression. You CAN NOT get to those numbers without wearing ascended of some sort.

Also – I just read your reply where you said you could do a level 40-50 in master work armor with your above figures.

I just had to laugh at you for a bit – I would like to thank you for amusing me.

Talking to you is like an exercise in Futility.

You did make the forums much more entertaining today though for many people with your fanatical defense of flawed ideals.

Azreell.1568:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

Is that how you try to win all your arguments via semantics?

I will help you – You NEED ascended gear to do fractals which is vertical progression. You CAN NOT get to those numbers without wearing ascended of some sort.

Also – I just read your reply where you said you could do a level 40-50 in master work armor with your above figures.

I just had to laugh at you for a bit – I would like to thank you for amusing me.

Talking to you is like an exercise in Futility.

You did make the forums much more entertaining today though for many people with your fanatical defense of flawed ideals.

I’m pretty sure I never said you don’t need ascended…..and rereading my posts…..I mentioned ascended rings and other objects at least twice. The OP is concerned over SETS…….SETS being full gear. Push and tug away, but there still remains no essential need for ascended armor. If and when they increase Agony req 10-20, then we can have the convo you are pushing for. Until then, fact is no need for ascended armor or a full set of ascended to do all content. Sorry x.x

KyleMcLaw.8974:

Azreell.1568:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

Is that how you try to win all your arguments via semantics?

I will help you – You NEED ascended gear to do fractals which is vertical progression. You CAN NOT get to those numbers without wearing ascended of some sort.

Also – I just read your reply where you said you could do a level 40-50 in master work armor with your above figures.

I just had to laugh at you for a bit – I would like to thank you for amusing me.

Talking to you is like an exercise in Futility.

You did make the forums much more entertaining today though for many people with your fanatical defense of flawed ideals.

I’m pretty sure I never said you don’t need ascended…..and rereading my posts…..I mentioned ascended rings and other objects at least twice. The OP is concerned over SETS…….SETS being full gear. Push and tug away, but there still remains no essential need for ascended armor. If and when they increase Agony req 10-20, then we can have the convo you are pushing for. Until then, fact is no need for ascended armor or a full set of ascended to do all content. Sorry x.x

Backpeddling is bad.

Either way it was entertaining.

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

Ascended gear includes all of trinkets armor and weapon. Laurels are time gated. So my point stands: It takes months for my character to fully switch from one build to another

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_ascended_trinkets

Acquisition

Regular
Purchase from Laurel merchant for 30 Laurel.png
1 The Triforge Pendant can only be obtained by upgrading the exotic version.
Purchase from laurel merchant in WvW for 20 Laurel.png and 250 Badge of Honor.png

So let’s say I am VERY bored with my current build. So I want to switch my build. This is a very simple request. Let’s paraphrase our conversation.

Your reply: Switching your build is a WANT, not a NEED.

I said: It is a NEED for me. I am BORED with my current build.

Your reply: You can switch you build anytime if you just use Masterwork gear. This game is so easy you only need Masterwork. Once again it is WANT not NEED.

I said: But if you are so good of a player that you only NEED Masterwork, why do you even WANT to farm for Ascended gear?

Your reply: Because i have the spare dungeon tokens + mats + coin to make it. I don’t stress over ascended ARMOR on my alts because it’s a WANT and not a NEED

I will say now: You didn’t answer my question. I asked you why you want to farm for ascended gear in the first place. You answered that you already have too much tokens+mats+coin to waste them on. That’s not an answer to my question. You are basically just saying that you got too much spare time on your hands, so you don’t mind wasting time farming for it, when all you NEED is Masterwork gear.

Your turn. :P

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I don’t stress over ascended ARMOR on my alts because it’s a WANT and not a NEED

That’s nice. However, you don’t get to decide which definition of the noun “need” other people choose.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/need

1. a requirement, necessary duty, or obligation: There is no need for you to go there.
2. a lack of something wanted or deemed necessary: to fulfill the needs of the assignment.
3. urgent want, as of something requisite: He has no need of your charity.
4. necessity arising from the circumstances of a situation or case: There is no need to worry.
5. a situation or time of difficulty; exigency: to help a friend in need; to be a friend in need.

Although, I find it interesting that perceived need, number 2, is defined before requirement, number 3.

If you don’t like that one, try http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/need

There’s also the issue going back to the introduction of Ascended to fill the empty gaming lives of players who wanted carrots to chase. To adopt your view, that wasn’t a need, either. Therefore, both sides are talking about perceived need and the whole optional argument is moot.

CHIPS.6018:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

Ascended gear includes all of trinkets armor and weapon. Laurels are time gated. So my point stands: It takes months for my character to fully switch from one build to another

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_ascended_trinkets

Acquisition

Regular
Purchase from Laurel merchant for 30 Laurel.png
1 The Triforge Pendant can only be obtained by upgrading the exotic version.
Purchase from laurel merchant in WvW for 20 Laurel.png and 250 Badge of Honor.png

So let’s say I am VERY bored with my current build. So I want to switch my build. This is a very simple request. Let’s paraphrase our conversation.

Your reply: Switching your build is a WANT, not a NEED.

I said: It is a NEED for me. I am BORED with my current build.

Your reply: You can switch you build anytime if you just use Masterwork gear. This game is so easy you only need Masterwork. Once again it is WANT not NEED.

I said: But if you are so good of a player that you only NEED Masterwork, why do you even WANT to farm for Ascended gear?

Your reply: Because i have the spare dungeon tokens + mats + coin to make it. I don’t stress over ascended ARMOR on my alts because it’s a WANT and not a NEED

I will say now: You didn’t answer my question. I asked you why you want to farm for ascended gear in the first place. You answered that you already have too much tokens+mats+coin to waste them on. That’s not an answer to my question. You are basically just saying that you got too much spare time on your hands, so you don’t mind wasting time farming for it, when all you NEED is Masterwork gear.

Your turn. :P

Don’t bother friend. After the master work comment he pretty much lost all of his credibility on these forums.

Agony may be hp% based.

Trash mob damage is not.

I’m sure he never get’s kicked getting 1 shot by all trash in each and every fractal wearing his amazing master work gear in a level 49 or 50.

CHIPS.6018:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

I can say the same for you Az:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

OP discuss sets. I said you Don’t need armor (thus denouncing a need for SETS).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony_Infusion
And to fix what I said earlier:
30 with 15 each infused ring, 10 with 5 each earring, 5 with necklace, 15 with infused back and 10 with weapons = 70
FoM 50 doable with NO ascended ARMOR. Don’t want 10 infusions? Go 9s on the back and 2 rings….BOOM……67…… FoM 50 easily doable with NO ascended ARMOR or needing full SETS

I accept your apology

Ascended gear includes all of trinkets armor and weapon. Laurels are time gated. So my point stands: It takes months for my character to fully switch from one build to another

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_ascended_trinkets

Acquisition

Regular
Purchase from Laurel merchant for 30 Laurel.png
1 The Triforge Pendant can only be obtained by upgrading the exotic version.
Purchase from laurel merchant in WvW for 20 Laurel.png and 250 Badge of Honor.png

So let’s say I am VERY bored with my current build. So I want to switch my build. This is a very simple request. Let’s paraphrase our conversation.

Your reply: Switching your build is a WANT, not a NEED.

I said: It is a NEED for me. I am BORED with my current build.

Your reply: You can switch you build anytime if you just use Masterwork gear. This game is so easy you only need Masterwork. Once again it is WANT not NEED.

I said: But if you are so good of a player that you only NEED Masterwork, why do you even WANT to farm for Ascended gear?

Your reply: Because i have the spare dungeon tokens + mats + coin to make it. I don’t stress over ascended ARMOR on my alts because it’s a WANT and not a NEED

I will say now: You didn’t answer my question. I asked you why you want to farm for ascended gear in the first place. You answered that you already have too much tokens+mats+coin to waste them on. That’s not an answer to my question. You are basically just saying that you got too much spare time on your hands, so you don’t mind wasting time farming for it, when all you NEED is Masterwork gear.

Your turn. :P

I did answer it. I don’t want to farm so I don’t. The spoils of war provide me with items to develop new items. If I want a new item, then I make a mental note and continue playing my game as I was before. If I get enough for my want eventually, then great. If I don’t, then I don’t go on the forums and complain for not achieving my want.

Further, poster above about definitions works for me too. Since your 2nd definition uses the word want to describe an internal motivation to achieve a mental need (and not a game requirement need), I will let it speak for itself.

Finally, there was no back peddling Az. Just straight facts. No need for ascended armor; therefore, no need to stress over it. The other ascended items are easy to get and don’t require a grind. Use 1 2h weapon for bosses and you don’t even need more than 1 ascended weapon for FoM 50. If you are getting 1 shot, put on some defense armor and stop QQing about meta zerk or trying to fill an unviable role. Thank-you Anet for making a game with accessible content!

@KyleMcLaw.8974

Ok so you said “I don’t want to farm so I don’t.” That means you personally also hates grinding.

Your view on Ascended gear is “If I get it great. If I don’t get it I don’t give a ****.”

At the same time you don’t like people complaining about Ascended gear because it is pointless. You don’t think Anet will fix this.

My view on this:

I agree 100% with you on the first point. I hate grinding.

I agree 100% with you on the second point. I am not wasting 100 gold for 10 extra stat points from Ascended armor.

I disagree with the third point. I still trust in Anet and I think they will fix Ascended gear eventually. :P

CHIPS.6018:

@KyleMcLaw.8974

Ok so you said “I don’t want to farm so I don’t.” That means you personally also hates grinding.

Your view on Ascended gear is “If I get it great. If I don’t get it I don’t give a ****.”

At the same time you don’t like people complaining about Ascended gear because it is pointless. You don’t think Anet will fix this.

My view on this:

I agree 100% with you on the first point. I hate grinding.

I agree 100% with you on the second point. I am not wasting 100 gold for 10 extra stat points from Ascended armor.

I disagree with the third point. I still trust in Anet and I think they will fix Ascended gear eventually. :P

You took away basically what I was saying. Maybe a fix we can both agree on is removing rings from highest FoM reward chest to allow for more armor/weapon chests to drop without getting negated by another ring and increase those drops by a small % or allow rings to drop with chests. I haven’t seen a ring + chest drop so I assume it’s a one-or-other type mechanic.

KyleMcLaw.8974:

CHIPS.6018:

@KyleMcLaw.8974

Ok so you said “I don’t want to farm so I don’t.” That means you personally also hates grinding.

Your view on Ascended gear is “If I get it great. If I don’t get it I don’t give a ****.”

At the same time you don’t like people complaining about Ascended gear because it is pointless. You don’t think Anet will fix this.

My view on this:

I agree 100% with you on the first point. I hate grinding.

I agree 100% with you on the second point. I am not wasting 100 gold for 10 extra stat points from Ascended armor.

I disagree with the third point. I still trust in Anet and I think they will fix Ascended gear eventually. :P

You took away basically what I was saying. Maybe a fix we can both agree on is removing rings from highest FoM reward chest to allow for more armor/weapon chests to drop without getting negated by another ring.

That is the definition of vertical progression.

You need the 1 ring to drop or farm laurels / guild missions so you have enough AR to get the second ring to have enough AR to keep going further.

Or you could craft ascended pieces to fill in the blanks were you lack drops or avenues to get more ar.

It’s a tiered system just like all other games.

Azreell.1568:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

CHIPS.6018:

@KyleMcLaw.8974

Ok so you said “I don’t want to farm so I don’t.” That means you personally also hates grinding.

Your view on Ascended gear is “If I get it great. If I don’t get it I don’t give a ****.”

At the same time you don’t like people complaining about Ascended gear because it is pointless. You don’t think Anet will fix this.

My view on this:

I agree 100% with you on the first point. I hate grinding.

I agree 100% with you on the second point. I am not wasting 100 gold for 10 extra stat points from Ascended armor.

I disagree with the third point. I still trust in Anet and I think they will fix Ascended gear eventually. :P

You took away basically what I was saying. Maybe a fix we can both agree on is removing rings from highest FoM reward chest to allow for more armor/weapon chests to drop without getting negated by another ring.

That is the definition of vertical progression.

You need the 1 ring to drop or farm laurels / guild missions so you have enough AR to get the second ring to have enough AR to keep going further.

Or you could craft ascended pieces to fill in the blanks were you lack drops or avenues to get more ar.

It’s a tiered system just like all other games.

Or do FoM 10s to get pristine and pick. I never said there wasn’t vertical………just disagree where the vertical need ends and where the bonus extras start

KyleMcLaw.8974:

Azreell.1568:

KyleMcLaw.8974:

CHIPS.6018:

@KyleMcLaw.8974

Ok so you said “I don’t want to farm so I don’t.” That means you personally also hates grinding.

Your view on Ascended gear is “If I get it great. If I don’t get it I don’t give a ****.”

At the same time you don’t like people complaining about Ascended gear because it is pointless. You don’t think Anet will fix this.

My view on this:

I agree 100% with you on the first point. I hate grinding.

I agree 100% with you on the second point. I am not wasting 100 gold for 10 extra stat points from Ascended armor.

I disagree with the third point. I still trust in Anet and I think they will fix Ascended gear eventually. :P

You took away basically what I was saying. Maybe a fix we can both agree on is removing rings from highest FoM reward chest to allow for more armor/weapon chests to drop without getting negated by another ring.

That is the definition of vertical progression.

You need the 1 ring to drop or farm laurels / guild missions so you have enough AR to get the second ring to have enough AR to keep going further.

Or you could craft ascended pieces to fill in the blanks were you lack drops or avenues to get more ar.

It’s a tiered system just like all other games.

Or do FoM 10s to get pristine and pick. I never said there wasn’t vertical………just disagree where the vertical need ends and where the bonus extras start

We will agree to disagree then.

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Jski.6180:

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Yes nearly all games have vertical progression to some degree. But the vertical progression in GW2 is out of control right now in my opinion.

CHIPS.6018:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

The best in-a-nutshell argument to date.
/applauds

I feel like I’m the only one who accepts the way GW2 is designed and accept all it’s pros and cons ._.

GW was not vertical progression. At level 20, you could buy the top and only level of gear from vendors for next to nothing. The big money items were the snazzy looking ones. Same stats.

GW2 has vertical progression. Even at 80, it’s got white, blue, green, yellow, orange, & pink levels of gear. 6 tiers. And orange (exotic) cost a fair amount of money/time for your first time 80, not hard if you plan ahead but an acceptable amount of needed effort. Pink though (ascended) is ridiculously expensive and requires a lot of time and crafting and materials to attain.

For a game designed around build strategy being the separating factor in combat, such expensive gear doesn’t really lend itself to trying to new builds that require new gear. Who wants to grind for an ascended zerk set, only to have to grind for a dire set to try a different build. Oh yea, and there’s WvW as well, which requires a completely different style of play than PvE. New armor set there too.

Too much grind for max tier gear = vertical progression

Proof that GW1 has vertical progression:
I log into GW1 and I am level 1.
I do not have the best gear.
I can not complete all content.
So by the logic above, GW1 has vertical progression.

Every single game will have some form of vertical progression, albeit at different difficulties of it. Just because you may not be a fan of the Ascended gear, that does not make it it right to start saying it is bad and the cause of GW2 vertical progression. Some of the posts in here are correct in that you do not need Ascended. You may not be able to do every part of the game without it, but that does not mean that you can not do the majority of the content without it.

By saying that since you can not do all the of content, then we will go back to my original statement. I am level 1 in GW1 with nothing, but I can not do all the content. So I am upset with the design of GW1 since I can not do everything.

If you really dislike Ascended gear then do not create it. If you are so upset with it then just move on from this game. Go back to GW1 if it was such a superior system. I for one spent 8 years playing WoW, you want to see vertical progression/grid go play that for a bit. I very much enjoy the system GW1 has in place, I have been playing all the content, without high level fractals and triple wurm. I am using all exotics besides trinkets and such since since I can get them with laurels. I also have 500 LW so I would be able to make a set of ascended if I really needed it. But as it stands the cost of gold for the minor stat increases are just not worth it. Maybe this summer I will get around to crafting a set, who knows.

Unfortunately, the OP is right. Right now it is a huge pain to change the build, be cause we need another full armor set. Not even ‘grindier and traditional’ MMOs do have this. At least the stats for a certain class remained the same and you didn’t have to farm, grind, craft etc. for another armor sets.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Unfortunately, the OP is right. Right now it is a huge pain to change the build, be cause we need another full armor set. Not even ‘grindier and traditional’ MMOs do have this. At least the stats for a certain class remained the same and you didn’t have to farm, grind, craft etc. for another armor sets.

BINGO – we have a winner!

In it’s current implementation, GW2 is one of the most grindy mmorpgs on the market.

People get upset when I say that, but I have to call it as I see it.

Azreell.1568:

You are incorrect. All content can not be done with exos.

If I wanted to do a level 49 fractal I would need agony resist 55 specifically.

You need ascended armor to do fractals at a certain level. UNLESS you have more money then most and can make some pretty hefty infusions (doubtful as it’s not a viable or logical way).

Fractals are content in the game which requires agony resist.

I’d love for you to explain to someone, like me, who has done every single fractal in existence up through level 35 difficulty, how the content is actually different 36-50? Harder =/= different content. Every fractal can be experienced in rare gear. The content is the level, the bosses, the “story” that goes behind it. Playing the same exact content but significantly harder is not new content.

So he was correct when he said that all content can be completed in Exos.

If you choose to play that content on a harder difficulty, then it will require better gear, but you can’t sit there saying that content just can’t be done withOUT Ascended gear, because that’s a lie.

It’s like playing a single player game once on Normal difficulty, and then playing it again on Nightmare difficulty and acting like it is completely different content. It’s the exact same thing, just harder.

It seems like everyone here has not played any other MMO out there at the moment; that or has no idea how to actively make gold in the game.

In terms of masterwork, which is all that is required to complete and enjoy 99% of the game, it takes barely any work.

In terms of exotics, which is what everyone minimally wants to complete and enjoy 99% of the game, it takes at most a few days of effort spread out (Dungeons, world bosses, what have you) to get the materials or straight up buy a set.
Generally in the time it takes me to level an alt from 0-80, unless I decided to spend hundreds of gold crafting them to 80 (at which point gold is clearly not an issue), I can straight up buy all the exotic gear I need for my first build.

In terms of ascended, which is what is required to complete and enjoy 1% of the game, it’s 1% of the game. And it is only necessary if you are going to spend hours upon hours grinding through FoTM. At this point in the game, you should have your FoTM build, and only your FoTM build. It should be min/maxed, and there should be no need to ever really change it. You are -already this hardcore-.
FoTM is the oddity in that it exists in a circular loop. You do FoTM so that you can do more FoTM, to further progress in FoTM.

The average player will probably try FoTM for the first 10 levels, and probably peak at the upper teens and 20s. That’s all easily obtainable.

For Exotic vs. Ascended; the stat difference barely has any effect on the overall game outside of FoTM. There is maybe a difference of 15-35 damage a strike for most skills. If you are being horribly outclassed by players wearing ascended, it isn’t the armor’s doing. It’s your build or general skill at the game.

CHIPS.6018:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

And this is just one character. We can also talk about alt-characters. They all need one ascended set. And then if we want to try something else and switch its build… >_>

Surely most people sees a huge problem with this design.

I think this should have been titled, this system isn’t diverse enough for alts, rather than the title it has because all one has to do in order to see it’s vertical is to see the progression/power creep from rare, exotic, ascended.

Now as far as switching I completely agree, it’s completely useless to have so many sets with certain stats especially with the requirements to grind one set out with fixed stats. I agree OP we need a better system.

It would be nice if it were a respec cost like the traits system where you choose the stat-sets you need.

Draknar.5748:

Azreell.1568:

You are incorrect. All content can not be done with exos.

If I wanted to do a level 49 fractal I would need agony resist 55 specifically.

You need ascended armor to do fractals at a certain level. UNLESS you have more money then most and can make some pretty hefty infusions (doubtful as it’s not a viable or logical way).

Fractals are content in the game which requires agony resist.

I’d love for you to explain to someone, like me, who has done every single fractal in existence up through level 35 difficulty, how the content is actually different 36-50? Harder =/= different content. Every fractal can be experienced in rare gear. The content is the level, the bosses, the “story” that goes behind it. Playing the same exact content but significantly harder is not new content.

So he was correct when he said that all content can be completed in Exos.

If you choose to play that content on a harder difficulty, then it will require better gear, but you can’t sit there saying that content just can’t be done with Ascended gear, because that’s a lie.

It’s like playing a single player game once on Normal difficulty, and then playing it again on Nightmare difficulty and acting like it is completely different content. It’s the exact same thing, just harder.

Sighs another semantics joker.

Do I really need to explain this?

If you really want to have this argument then here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistlock_Instability

Yours definition of content is incorrect.

The fights at higher level fractals due to the mistlock instability list have different mechanics and effects hence different content. I suggestion you review them before attempting any because as per your post I can see you being a liability to a group.

Also, The fractals are listed from 1-50 – there is no difficulty slider.

You may view them as more difficult I simply view them as different because I would not play the exact same way in a level 1 with no instability as I would on a level 43 with Bloodlust.

To clarify – Not being able to do a level 50 by most normal persons would mean by definition you can not do all content.

<boggle>

KarlaGrey.5903:

CHIPS.6018:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

The best in-a-nutshell argument to date.
/applauds

Thanks. ^^

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Yes nearly all games have vertical progression to some degree. But the vertical progression in GW2 is out of control right now in my opinion.

One armor set that not a full upgrade but more on the lines of a +1 is about as far out of control as you can get. I think your making mountains out of ant mounds. Out of control vertical progression is what you have in WoW a full new armor set ever 6 months and about 5 to 10 levels every year. In WoW vertical progression will never end and i have a feeling games say like wildstar or other games with a raid end game you will see the same thing happen. GW2 progression reminds me of FF11 before they added in a higher level cap then 75 only a +1 gear set. My point is that if you call this out of control what is in control vertical progression?

PattyCakeChamp.5268:

Ashen.2907:

PattyCakeChamp.5268:

Anet has already begun to address the issue with ascended/ vertical progression directly with a CDI.

Does ascended gear still exist ?

Has there been any indication from Anet ni the CDI thread(s) that ascended gear will be removed from the game ?

The issue still exists.

Look at my post, now look at the op, now back at mine. Now look at yours. I’m saying this specific thread is someone who decided they were angry and posted absolutely nothing of productive conversation about the issue. THAT is why this is a dead horse. If he/she had opened the thread with some meaningful discussion points sure. That is not the case. Threads like this should be dumped. Its the same complaints from a different person

Why be rude? Why suppress their voice? Why complain about the complaint? Why not be the kind of useful you think this post isn’t and give links to the merged post(s)? Because I can guarantee now forum searching, google and others probably aren’t going to turn up the ones to which you allude.

And go roll a few alts, ascended armor and weapons by the piece look quite small, but I can say having a full set of ascended berserker/assassins armor that this one set is more survivable —
as in less aggro, and LESS DAMAGE TAKEN per hit than clerics or knights armor--
Unless for some reason they nerfed every dungeon boss in the entire game here recently without my knowledge…

Zypher.7609:

Proof that GW1 has vertical progression:
I log into GW1 and I am level 1.
I do not have the best gear.
I can not complete all content.
So by the logic above, GW1 has vertical progression.

Every single game will have some form of vertical progression, albeit at different difficulties of it. Just because you may not be a fan of the Ascended gear, that does not make it it right to start saying it is bad and the cause of GW2 vertical progression. Some of the posts in here are correct in that you do not need Ascended. You may not be able to do every part of the game without it, but that does not mean that you can not do the majority of the content without it.

By saying that since you can not do all the of content, then we will go back to my original statement. I am level 1 in GW1 with nothing, but I can not do all the content. So I am upset with the design of GW1 since I can not do everything.

If you really dislike Ascended gear then do not create it. If you are so upset with it then just move on from this game. Go back to GW1 if it was such a superior system. I for one spent 8 years playing WoW, you want to see vertical progression/grid go play that for a bit. I very much enjoy the system GW1 has in place, I have been playing all the content, without high level fractals and triple wurm. I am using all exotics besides trinkets and such since since I can get them with laurels. I also have 500 LW so I would be able to make a set of ascended if I really needed it. But as it stands the cost of gold for the minor stat increases are just not worth it. Maybe this summer I will get around to crafting a set, who knows.

The vertical progression in GW1 is bare minimum. Please do not argue that GW1 vertical progression=GW2 vertical progression. Anyone can tell they are vastly different.

The biggest problem is the design philosophy. Once the game devs starts thinking along the lines of "extreme vertical progression (new term ^^), there is no turning back. This “extreme vertical progression” will keep on going until the players cannot do the new contents unless they have the latest tier of gears. I mean yes this is a slippery slope argument and the truth hasn’t happened yet. But we want to make sure this slippery slope ends now.

You said “having ascended gear doesn’t make vertical progression bad.” Well actually “Extreme vertical progression” is bad, very bad. How do we know this? Because no one have any solid reasoning in why they like it. So far we heard reasons such as:

-I just enjoy mindless farming because I have a lot of spare time.
-You don’t really need ascended gear. You just need masterwork.
-Go back to GW1 if you like it so much.

None of the above are solid reasons for why these players even like Ascended gear.

-In the first case, these players seem to forget that there are ton of other fun games out there. “Last of Us”, “Dead Space”, etc. There are so any great games out there. Why would they even want to mindlessly grind?

-In the second case, I don’t understand why gurus/elites/experts like these would even defend the existence of Ascended gear. They clearly have no need for Ascended gear.

And the argument of “Ascended gear is not causing any problems for me because I don’t need it” cannot be used to defend the statement “I like Ascended gear”. “Not causing problems for me” is very different from “I like it”. This isn’t solid reasoning.

-In the third case, these players do not understand the core design philosophies of GW1 vs other MMOs.

GW1:
Player abilities + build design >>>>>>>>>> Time spent grinding.

Other MMOs:
Time spent grinding >>>>>>>>>> Player abilities + build design.

You said I should go back to GW1. I could just easily tell you to move to another extremely grindy MMO. That argument will lead nowhere. Instead, look at the two different core design philosophies above. Pick and choose which you your prefer.

If you prefer the first philosophy, then please help us defend the core values of GW1. As of today, GW2 is the only game where some players would defend this first philosophy.

If you prefer the second philosophy, then please look at all those extremely grindy MMOs out there. There is no need for you to try to change GW2 into these other extremely grindy MMOs. There are so many of them out there, so you are bound to find one that fits you.

Guild Wars is the only game series where players who preferred the first philosophy have gathered. Please do not ruin it for us. Thank you. ^^

Azreell.1568:

Draknar.5748:

Azreell.1568:

You are incorrect. All content can not be done with exos.

If I wanted to do a level 49 fractal I would need agony resist 55 specifically.

You need ascended armor to do fractals at a certain level. UNLESS you have more money then most and can make some pretty hefty infusions (doubtful as it’s not a viable or logical way).

Fractals are content in the game which requires agony resist.

I’d love for you to explain to someone, like me, who has done every single fractal in existence up through level 35 difficulty, how the content is actually different 36-50? Harder =/= different content. Every fractal can be experienced in rare gear. The content is the level, the bosses, the “story” that goes behind it. Playing the same exact content but significantly harder is not new content.

So he was correct when he said that all content can be completed in Exos.

If you choose to play that content on a harder difficulty, then it will require better gear, but you can’t sit there saying that content just can’t be done with Ascended gear, because that’s a lie.

It’s like playing a single player game once on Normal difficulty, and then playing it again on Nightmare difficulty and acting like it is completely different content. It’s the exact same thing, just harder.

Sighs another semantics joker.

Do I really need to explain this?

If you really want to have this argument then here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistlock_Instability

Yours definition of content is incorrect.

The fights at higher level fractals due to the mistlock instability list have different mechanics and effects hence different content. I suggestion you review them before attempting any because as per your post I can see you being a liability to a group.

Also, The fractals are listed from 1-50 – there is no difficulty slider.

You may view them as more difficult I simply view them as different because I would not play the exact same way in a level 1 with no instability as I would on a level 43 with Bloodlust.

To clarify – Not being able to do a level 50 by most normal persons would mean by definition you can not do all content.

Also the mobs and bosses do keep hitting harder and harder, and have more and more health. Almost inordinately so between 49 and 50 imo.

@ CHIPS.6018

The big flaw is that your calling GW1 an mmorpg it was a HUB game you could play with other ppl but you did not have to.
Also your argument is more about grinding then vertical progression you can have vertical progression with out a grind and you can have a grind with out a vertical progression. There was grind in GW1 and there was vertical progression (in the forum of story and skills). Doing a story is a type of vertical progression just because something dose not make you stronger dose not make it any less of vertical progression. The ideal of vertical progression is this simply you must do 1 2 and 3 to get to 4 horizontal progression is the ability to jump from 1 to 4 with out doing 2 and 3.

Azreell.1568:

Sighs another semantics joker.

Do I really need to explain this?

If you really want to have this argument then here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistlock_Instability

Yours definition of content is incorrect.

The fights at higher level fractals due to the mistlock instability list have different mechanics and effects hence different content. I suggestion you review them before attempting any because as per your post I can see you being a liability to a group.

Also, The fractals are listed from 1-50 – there is no difficulty slider.

You may view them as more difficult I simply view them as different because I would not play the exact same way in a level 1 with no instability as I would on a level 43 with Bloodlust.

To clarify – Not being able to do a level 50 by most normal persons would mean by definition you can not do all content.

<boggle>

Sorry, bud, we will have to agree to disagree here, like pretty much everyone on either side of the fence on this.

New attacks/effects does NOT equate to new content. It’s the same content, they added some added mechanics, but in the end it is the same content. You are going through the same level, fighting the same bad guys, killing the same bosses, except now there are different moves the boss uses or different modifiers on damage?

That’s a serious stretch just to make the argument that “lawlz gw2 is totally vertical because you can’t do the hardest version of easily accessible content, which means it is new content, which means Ascended isn’t optional it is REQUIRED huehuehue”.

Someone completely new to GW2 could level up to 80, gear up in yellows, and run FoTM1 of every single fractal and have experienced every bit as much content as the FoTM50 group. Sure the 50 group faces a harder challenge, but in the end, both groups are running the same dungeon, facing the same types of monsters, and killing the same bosses. That is the same content.

I have a feeling that if Anet made a big announcement about a giant update with loads of new content, and then it turned out that all the new “content” was was the same dungeons we have but a special hard-mode that requires Ascended gear, you’d be right with everyone else saying “WTF ANET THAT ISNT NEW CONTENT ITS THE SAME CONTENT WITH MORE CHALLENGE RIPOFF!!”

Seen a few posts mentioning it: I think the title is a typo and might make more sense saying “Proof that GW2 is vertical progression”

That wvw post earlier also cought my eye, I was wondering about that, and having made and run around in my own ascended armor set (finally) I can see that becoming a terrible power creep.

Also Account wide fractal level is a lie, unless you are content to stop at 49 until the servers shut down, you are forced to get ascended armor.

Exotic gear was vertical progression? No, sorry…i don’t buy that. Exotics were not stupid easy to get, but they also didn’t require 1 full month (or more correctly 5 minutes a day spending 70% of my earnings the previous day, for 27-37 days depending on light/med/heavy…not mentioning weapons) to get my hands on. That level of grind right there should be what it takes to make 1 full character at at least 2, if not 3 full sets of top-tier armor AND weapons/accessories in a horizontal progression setting, not ONE set of armor. To make the point a little more clear: 6 armor insignias in damask alone (11-12g each), that’s 18 pieces…costs as much as any precourser to buy at once…that’s saying something, because those 500 and 600 gold precoursers are generally a bit more than 1/3 the calculable gold cost of the legendary weapon they go into creating. Horizontal progression means that there can be some teirs of gear, but they should not cost the same as some legendary precourser each to make (that is highly prohibitive, especially in my opinion having a set because it really does feel like a huge difference) where making a particularly nice item skin should be the thing that costs that much, NOT stats.

The same thing twisted in a different way is why I got flamescammed by anet when they listened to why human t3 was sacred or something and that 119g was somehow far different from about 84g worth of gems at the time… I figure they scammed me to “fix” that “discrepency,” they can fix this one too.

OverlordOutpost.5961:

It seems like everyone here has not played any other MMO out there at the moment; that or has no idea how to actively make gold in the game.

In terms of masterwork, which is all that is required to complete and enjoy 99% of the game, it takes barely any work.

In terms of exotics, which is what everyone minimally wants to complete and enjoy 99% of the game, it takes at most a few days of effort spread out (Dungeons, world bosses, what have you) to get the materials or straight up buy a set.
Generally in the time it takes me to level an alt from 0-80, unless I decided to spend hundreds of gold crafting them to 80 (at which point gold is clearly not an issue), I can straight up buy all the exotic gear I need for my first build.

In terms of ascended, which is what is required to complete and enjoy 1% of the game, it’s 1% of the game. And it is only necessary if you are going to spend hours upon hours grinding through FoTM. At this point in the game, you should have your FoTM build, and only your FoTM build. It should be min/maxed, and there should be no need to ever really change it. You are -already this hardcore-.
FoTM is the oddity in that it exists in a circular loop. You do FoTM so that you can do more FoTM, to further progress in FoTM.

The average player will probably try FoTM for the first 10 levels, and probably peak at the upper teens and 20s. That’s all easily obtainable.

For Exotic vs. Ascended; the stat difference barely has any effect on the overall game outside of FoTM. There is maybe a difference of 15-35 damage a strike for most skills. If you are being horribly outclassed by players wearing ascended, it isn’t the armor’s doing. It’s your build or general skill at the game.

A player must play differently when they are in FoTM level 1 and FoTM level 50. If not that player will not survive.

Same location, yes.
Same challenge, no. Far from it.
Same play style, no. Far from it.

So the only thing that’s the same between FoTM level 1 and FoTM level 50 is the location. So they are different contents.

You will notice that no one complains until Agony starts happening. The other things increase difficulty but does not require any farming. It is when Agony starts happening that players must grind for Asceneded gears. The difference is:

No farm model:
Player finish level 1, move to level 2.
Player finish level 2, move to level 3.
Player finish level 3, move to level 4.

Farm model:
Player finish level 1, now he must grind level 1 for like 10 times to get some items. Then he can move to level 2.
Player finish level 2, now he must grind level 2 for like 20 times to get some items. Then he can move to level 3.
Player finish level 3, now he must grind level 3 for like 50 times to get some items. Then he can move to level 4.

What purpose does that grind server? How much more fun did the player get from that grind? Nothing! It only delayed that player’s enjoyment of level 4 by a week (for example). It is purely there as a time gate. It is a waste of time.

CHIPS.6018:

You said I should go back to GW1. I could just easily tell you to move to another extremely grindy MMO. That argument will lead nowhere. Instead, look at the two different core design philosophies above. Pick and choose which you your prefer.

I’m not asking the developers to change the game for me. That is what you are trying to do, I enjoy the way the game is. So I made the mention that if you really did enjoy GW1 so much you should just go back. I do not find GW2 grindy at all because I do not support the claim that Ascended armor is needed. I have 5 different sets of exotic in the bank for my character, it takes me 2 minutes to respec. A little be more if I forget what traits I used and need to look at my spreadsheet I have. (Which on this note would love a system to save a trait build.) Back to the point, I am just making the point that there is in no way that “Proof that GW2 is Vertical Progression.” that your post tries to make. I showed that there is vertical progession in every game, by this your first post is invalid.

Jski.6180:

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Yes nearly all games have vertical progression to some degree. But the vertical progression in GW2 is out of control right now in my opinion.

One armor set that not a full upgrade but more on the lines of a +1 is about as far out of control as you can get. I think your making mountains out of ant mounds. Out of control vertical progression is what you have in WoW a full new armor set ever 6 months and about 5 to 10 levels every year. In WoW vertical progression will never end and i have a feeling games say like wildstar or other games with a raid end game you will see the same thing happen. GW2 progression reminds me of FF11 before they added in a higher level cap then 75 only a +1 gear set. My point is that if you call this out of control what is in control vertical progression?

To be honest, it is the slippery slope that I am worried about the most. But even right now, the fact I listed stands.

It takes 3 months to full switch from one build to the next, because switching Ascended gear takes a long time. They take a while to obtain.

People may argue that you do not need Ascended gear. If they only use Exotic (or even masterwork) gear then they can switch very easily. Sure. But then they will be playing at a stat disadvantage, because Ascended stats > Exotic stats > Masterwork stats.

All these a facts.

The next argument is that exotic have very similar stats as Ascended. This is indeed true. However it is still a stat advantage. An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage, no matter how small. That’s why the Olympics made every effort to make sure the completion is nearly 100% totally fair.

I take joy in overcoming a challenge because I became a better player.
I do not take joy in overcoming a challenge because my stats got higher after grinding. This proves nothing.

And once again, think of the slippery slope.

Until Anet openly state that “the slippery slope has ended”, we don’t know it will end. WoW is a much older game than GW2, so its slippery slope is more obvious. We cannot say “WoW is worst than GW2” because GW2 hasn’t reached the end of its slippery slope yet.

Hope I am making sense.

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Yes nearly all games have vertical progression to some degree. But the vertical progression in GW2 is out of control right now in my opinion.

One armor set that not a full upgrade but more on the lines of a +1 is about as far out of control as you can get. I think your making mountains out of ant mounds. Out of control vertical progression is what you have in WoW a full new armor set ever 6 months and about 5 to 10 levels every year. In WoW vertical progression will never end and i have a feeling games say like wildstar or other games with a raid end game you will see the same thing happen. GW2 progression reminds me of FF11 before they added in a higher level cap then 75 only a +1 gear set. My point is that if you call this out of control what is in control vertical progression?

To be honest, it is the slippery slope that I am worried about the most. But even right now, the fact I listed stands.

It takes 3 months to full switch from one build to the next, because switching Ascended gear takes a long time. They take a while to obtain.

People may argue that you do not need Ascended gear. If they only use Exotic (or even masterwork) gear then they can switch very easily. Sure. But then they will be playing at a stat disadvantage, because Ascended stats > Exotic stats > Masterwork stats.

All these a facts.

The next argument is that exotic have very similar stats as Ascended. This is indeed true. However it is still a stat advantage. An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage, no matter how small. That’s why the Olympics made every effort to make sure the completion is nearly 100% totally fair.

I take joy in overcoming a challenge because I became a better player.
I do not take joy in overcoming a challenge because my stats got higher after grinding. This proves nothing.

And once again, think of the slippery slope.

Until Anet openly state that “the slippery slope has ended”, we don’t know it will end. WoW is a much older game than GW2, so its slippery slope is more obvious. We cannot say “WoW is worst than GW2” because GW2 hasn’t reached the end of its slippery slope yet.

Hope I am making sense.

I will use this as an example.

For number’s sake lets assume ascended is 3% more overall dps (making this up just to make it easy).

We have Warrior A and B.

Warrior A is in full exotics zerker.

Warrior B is in full ascended zerker.

We will assume Both warrior A and B are equally skilled. Warrior B will always win because that 3% will allow him to get warrior A’s hps to 0 faster.

The progression is already there. It’s already making a difference. The “small” difference people keep mentioning is actually much larger in the wvw area were to beat someone you only need to have 1 more hp then them.

See the point I’m getting at?

GW2 needs to decide what it is. It already has power creep in gear but continues to try and say it doesn’t.

They need to make up their minds so the player base knows what direction and what type of game they are actually playing.

KarlaGrey.5903:

CHIPS.6018:

In GW1 it takes me 2 minutes to switch my build.
In GW2 it takes me 3 months to switch my build (from one ascended gear to another set).

The best in-a-nutshell argument to date.
/applauds

This is the best in a nutshell argument to date, if you ignore the simple fact that guild wars 1 was not an MMORPG but a CORPG then you realize most comparisons between guild wars 1 and 2 in terms of progression are meaningless. A lot of fanboys are going to tell you stuff, but the only relationship between gw1 and 2 is the lore and it seems Anet was not interested in making an upgrade version of gw1.

With that said, it is apparent that guild wars 2 has vertical progression and as long as it says non-mandatory, I don’t see a problem with it. A lot of the forums warriors are going to argue otherwise but they can always go play that nonexistent MMORPG without vertical progression. Also if they felt so strongly about progression, they would probably still be playing guild wars 1, just like they are still people playing games release years before gw1.

Now if you are talking about guild wars 2 needing things like Templates and improved mechanics, then we can all agree gw2 is lacking.

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Yes nearly all games have vertical progression to some degree. But the vertical progression in GW2 is out of control right now in my opinion.

One armor set that not a full upgrade but more on the lines of a +1 is about as far out of control as you can get. I think your making mountains out of ant mounds. Out of control vertical progression is what you have in WoW a full new armor set ever 6 months and about 5 to 10 levels every year. In WoW vertical progression will never end and i have a feeling games say like wildstar or other games with a raid end game you will see the same thing happen. GW2 progression reminds me of FF11 before they added in a higher level cap then 75 only a +1 gear set. My point is that if you call this out of control what is in control vertical progression?

To be honest, it is the slippery slope that I am worried about the most. But even right now, the fact I listed stands.

It takes 3 months to full switch from one build to the next, because switching Ascended gear takes a long time. They take a while to obtain.

People may argue that you do not need Ascended gear. If they only use Exotic (or even masterwork) gear then they can switch very easily. Sure. But then they will be playing at a stat disadvantage, because Ascended stats > Exotic stats > Masterwork stats.

All these a facts.

The next argument is that exotic have very similar stats as Ascended. This is indeed true. However it is still a stat advantage. An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage, no matter how small. That’s why the Olympics made every effort to make sure the completion is nearly 100% totally fair.

Once again, think of the slippery slope.

Until Anet openly state that “the slippery slope has ended”, we don’t know it will end. WoW is a much older game than GW2, so its slippery slope is more obvious. We cannot say “WoW is worst than GW2” because GW2 hasn’t reached the end of its slippery slope yet.

Hope I am making sense.

Why is it unfair? Your acting like things in pve are so base off of gear that any changes will = a win or a lost and that just not true. In WvW its unfair to be an up level but you can still get into wvw so its unfair to the world to have more up-level its also unfair to use a tp etc.. the list goes on and on for wvw its not made to be fair. There is no slope to slip down because the game still doable in greens at all levels but ONE event fractals and that 10+ fractals only. Its such a small part of the game over all though and you can get the full content of fractals by doing level 1 to 10.

Jski.6180:

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

CHIPS.6018:

Jski.6180:

Yes you do level from 1 to 80 that is a type of vertical progression any game is like that though i do not see your point.

Yes nearly all games have vertical progression to some degree. But the vertical progression in GW2 is out of control right now in my opinion.

One armor set that not a full upgrade but more on the lines of a +1 is about as far out of control as you can get. I think your making mountains out of ant mounds. Out of control vertical progression is what you have in WoW a full new armor set ever 6 months and about 5 to 10 levels every year. In WoW vertical progression will never end and i have a feeling games say like wildstar or other games with a raid end game you will see the same thing happen. GW2 progression reminds me of FF11 before they added in a higher level cap then 75 only a +1 gear set. My point is that if you call this out of control what is in control vertical progression?

To be honest, it is the slippery slope that I am worried about the most. But even right now, the fact I listed stands.

It takes 3 months to full switch from one build to the next, because switching Ascended gear takes a long time. They take a while to obtain.

People may argue that you do not need Ascended gear. If they only use Exotic (or even masterwork) gear then they can switch very easily. Sure. But then they will be playing at a stat disadvantage, because Ascended stats > Exotic stats > Masterwork stats.

All these a facts.

The next argument is that exotic have very similar stats as Ascended. This is indeed true. However it is still a stat advantage. An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage, no matter how small. That’s why the Olympics made every effort to make sure the completion is nearly 100% totally fair.

Once again, think of the slippery slope.

Until Anet openly state that “the slippery slope has ended”, we don’t know it will end. WoW is a much older game than GW2, so its slippery slope is more obvious. We cannot say “WoW is worst than GW2” because GW2 hasn’t reached the end of its slippery slope yet.

Hope I am making sense.

Why is it unfair? Your acting like things in pve are so base off of gear that any changes will = a win or a lost and that just not true. In WvW its unfair to be an up level but you can still get into wvw so its unfair to the world to have more up-level its also unfair to use a tp etc.. the list goes on and on for wvw its not made to be fair. There is no slope to slip down because the game still doable in greens at all levels but ONE event fractals and that 10+ fractals only. Its such a small part of the game over all though and you can get the full content of fractals by doing level 1 to 10.

That’s not true.

Draknar.5748:

Azreell.1568:

Sighs another semantics joker.

Do I really need to explain this?

If you really want to have this argument then here:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistlock_Instability

Yours definition of content is incorrect.

The fights at higher level fractals due to the mistlock instability list have different mechanics and effects hence different content. I suggestion you review them before attempting any because as per your post I can see you being a liability to a group.

Also, The fractals are listed from 1-50 – there is no difficulty slider.

You may view them as more difficult I simply view them as different because I would not play the exact same way in a level 1 with no instability as I would on a level 43 with Bloodlust.

To clarify – Not being able to do a level 50 by most normal persons would mean by definition you can not do all content.

<boggle>

Sorry, bud, we will have to agree to disagree here, like pretty much everyone on either side of the fence on this.

New attacks/effects does NOT equate to new content. It’s the same content, they added some added mechanics, but in the end it is the same content. You are going through the same level, fighting the same bad guys, killing the same bosses, except now there are different moves the boss uses or different modifiers on damage?

That’s a serious stretch just to make the argument that “lawlz gw2 is totally vertical because you can’t do the hardest version of easily accessible content, which means it is new content, which means Ascended isn’t optional it is REQUIRED huehuehue”.

Someone completely new to GW2 could level up to 80, gear up in yellows, and run FoTM1 of every single fractal and have experienced every bit as much content as the FoTM50 group. Sure the 50 group faces a harder challenge, but in the end, both groups are running the same dungeon, facing the same types of monsters, and killing the same bosses. That is the same content.

I have a feeling that if Anet made a big announcement about a giant update with loads of new content, and then it turned out that all the new “content” was was the same dungeons we have but a special hard-mode that requires Ascended gear, you’d be right with everyone else saying “WTF ANET THAT ISNT NEW CONTENT ITS THE SAME CONTENT WITH MORE CHALLENGE RIPOFF!!”

Look at these 3 dungeons in the same location.

Dungeon 1: You kill mobs. Kill the boss. GG.
Dungeon 2: You are poisoned once every 10 seconds. That makes condition removal very important. You need to carry a condition removal skill. You kill mobs. Kill the boss. GG.
Dungeon 3: You will be hit by a 10,000 damage attack (landslide, etc) every 10 seconds. That makes timely dodging these landslides, while fighting enemies, very important. You kill mobs. Kill the boss. GG.

Are these 3 dungeons, in the same location, the same? Nope!

Dungeon 1, you just kill mobs.
Dungeon 2, you also have to worry about the poison.
Dungeon 3, you also have to dodge landslides while fighting.

These 3 dungeons are not the same at all.