Guild Wars 2

I’m posting this here, as a general discussion topic because I’m curious what non-PvP and even PvP players think about the resources dedicated to WTS and how it might impact the rest of the game. I’ll admit that I’m not very interested in PvP so this has some bias. I’m curious what other GW2 players think about the money Anet spends on the WTS tournaments. We are talking about $50,000 prize pools, airfare and accommodations for the participants plus whatever Anet has to pay for time at the shows. With the prize pool, plus airfare and accommodations for the participants alone guesstimating $70,000 if not more. I think the tournaments are what twice a year so double that cost per year.

Compared to Anet’s overall revenue that amount may not be much. Then it again it isn’t actually small change either at guesstimated over $140,000 a year. But let’s look at the positives:

• Gets the GW2 name out there for trade show visitors.
• Gains exposure to the PvP aspect of the game for potential customers.
• Rewards top tier PvP players for their dedication to the game and PvP.
• Encourages other PvP players to play more, improve and maybe have a shot at the WTS.

On the other end, I wonder if this money could be spent on better ways to obtain new customers. Perhaps on more advertising. I don’t see GW2 advertised very much and when I do see them on the web I feel they are poorly executed. “Quaggan wants a fishy,” doesn’t really tell me this is a big time MMO or tell me it is an MMO at all. I could be really goofy here and say the money could be used to hire someone else or maybe 2 more people that maybe could help work on dungeon improvements, SAB, WvW, old bugs, more optimization, QoL suggestions or even PvP balancing/fixes. Those things people have been asking for for well over a year.

I’m in no way trying to detract or take anything away from PvP. It is a game mode I don’t care for but respect the people that enjoy it. However, it seems from what I have read even the PvP crowd, at least on the forum, has little interest in WTS. For example, they announced the brackets the other day in the PvP forum and since then there is currently a total of 21 responses in that thread, which is now on the 3rd page.

Anyway, I’m kind of thinking out loud here. As someone that has spent a fair amount of money on the game/gems I feel it is okay to have some interest in where the money I have spent on Anet is going. I’m simply interested in what others think about this topic.

I look forward to this being a constructive and friendly conversation, so please keep it that way.

Edit: I have no idea how much Anet receives from their listed sponsors on the WTS page. However based on the placement of said sponsors at the very bottom of the page and “popularity” of the WTS tournaments, I would guess it is not much.

tl;dr Do you think the time and money spent on WTS is worth it and does it benefit the game as a whole? Do you think the WTS is attracting $100,000+ worth of new customers a year?

Having been in retail for a good portion of my life, There’s a saying that 90% of all promotion is wasted. Only 10 % works. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to identify which 10% works, so you have to do it all. I’ve found this to be largely true.

Guild Wars 2 PvP, in my opinion, has limited appeal. There aren’t yet multiple PvP types (not counting WvW here, since the question is about SPvP). It’s not widely watched on Twitch.

However, the real thing you really need to do to advertise is to get the name of the game out there. That’s it. Advertising is always expensive. A single ad on a TV site is likely to cost more than the WTS series in a year, and might not reach any more people likely to play.

What you need is for people to see the name over and over again, and the WTS helps that. When you consider Anet is making millions of dollars each and every month, it’s really not much money. It’s a drop in the bucket. And by itself it does nothing. But in combination with other things Anet does, it helps.

People think Anet doesn’t advertise well because of the way they release information in drips and drabs. But that’s part of promotion. They release a bit here and a bit there and every time they do, the MMO sites pick it up and write an article about it. Every time Anet announced a specialization it’s on the front page of massively, mmorpg.com etc. That’s half that battle, but PvPers don’t necessarily go to those sites.

Anet also wants to keep their name up on Twitch (which is likely why they’re sponsoring Twitch con this year).

Believe me when I tell you, this is a pretty cheap way to keep their name circulating in different circles. Directly I think it doesn’t do much, but what it does do is keep the name circulating.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 PvP, in my opinion, has limited appeal. There aren’t yet multiple PvP types (not counting WvW here, since the question is about SPvP). It’s not widely watched on Twitch.

Believe me when I tell you, this is a pretty cheap way to keep their name circulating in different circles. Directly I think it doesn’t do much, but what it does do is keep the name circulating.

I clipped most of your post. Sorry. However, you noted PvP is not widely watched or followed. So to me it seems like a waste to spend over $100,000 a year on PvP tournaments that most people don’t care about.

Yes it is important to keep the name circulating, but I can think several ways to do that with $100,000+ that would be much more affective. As opposed to a tournament at a trade show that most people don’t seem to care about. Trade show traffic itself is very limited. In fact limited to the number of people that venture past the display a day. Once they visit the value is only on what they buy or their word of mouth. The word of mouth is also limited by how many people visit. A small number.

Having spent years in Internet marketing, $100,000 will buy a lot of name circulation across the internet if done properly. And I am willing to bet it would have a lot more value than a few hour PvP tournament that doesn’t appeal to many as far as circulating the brand. So I disagree. It is not a cheap way for Anet to market GW2. I think WTS is a waste of money as it only appeals to a very small audience.

Of course I do not work for Anet and have no access to their numbers. I have no idea how many sales are generated from each WTS. So I may be very very wrong.

I think it’s our self stated bias that is leading you to say it’s not a good use of the money. As you also stated, you don’t work for Anet and you have no knowledge of their metrics or anything so all you can do is guess. The same applies to everyone else.

Marketing costs vary depending on the customer base you’re trying to reach. It could very well be possible that spending 100,000 on WTS is an effective and efficient use of the money. Given what they’ve stated in the past about their long term PVP goals, I’d guess it’s money well spent.

They need to save a revision a few weeks before the tournament, give all tournament players a key to a server running an instance of PvP on that revision, and then just keep patching the game as normal.

I’m tired of them freezing live game balance for months at a time every time WTS rolls around.

Torsailr.8456:

Marketing costs vary depending on the customer base you’re trying to reach. It could very well be possible that spending 100,000 on WTS is an effective and efficient use of the money. Given what they’ve stated in the past about their long term PVP goals, I’d guess it’s money well spent.

I agree I could be and may be very wrong. But I am interested if others that have bought the game and possibly bought gems think the money is well spent on WTS. Or should it be spent on other ways that may benefit the game as a whole? Vayne is the only person that approached that question so far.

I won’t be able to watch the WTS Twitch stream to see how many are watching. If someone else can and can post the numbers with a screen shot, especially for the final that would be interesting.

Look at the mass excitement for WTS in the PvP forum. This was posted 4 days ago, red post. Screen cap below taken tonight 8/04/2015, 11:02 EST:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/World-Tournament-Series-Cologne-Brackets/

That doesn’t scream a lot of interest to me. But hey, maybe the 500 or so of people that saunter by during the tournament will generate $50,000 dollars in sales or more. It could happen.

One of Mike and Colin’s dream was to have GW2 become the next big E-Sport MMO. While I think GW2 SPvP is ok, it’s not as epic as the GW1 Hall of Heroes PvP. There was more variety in GW1 HoH, and that made it a very popular competition. Add to that we also had structured GvG in GW1.

Having said that, Anet does put up money and resources into the current competition. Some of that comes from sponsors, so it’s not just Anet/NC Soft footing the entire bill. Do I think Anet is wasting money on the tourneys? Nah. The prize pool amount is small compared to the earnings Anet brings NC Soft, so there’s no real risk to the company’s bottom line. However, this is a double edge sword. GW2 E-Sports is not as popular as some other games, thus there’s less players participating. Less players competing means the same people who compete will most likely be the same ones who win or place high in the rankings each and every time.

The following needs to be done in order to expand GW2’s popularity and justify this game as E-Sports:

• 1) We need more SPvP variety. Capture the flag, King of the Hill, etc. Heck, GW1’s 3-way HoH made the game kitten fun.
• 2) Better rewards in SPvP
• 3) GvG. GvG mode is a must.
• 4) Cantha. Because Alliance Battles were a fun PvP alternative.

In closing, people need to remember this: NC Soft is the one who controls the purse-strings. I would love to see more attention to WvW, to QA, even allowing Devs time to interact with the community on the forums while on the clock. Putting up $100,000 on an E-Sport competition is fine. NC Soft can afford to put up another $100,000 to hire two or three more Devs.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

One of Mike and Colin’s dream was to have GW2 become the next big E-Sport MMO. While I think GW2 SPvP is ok, it’s not as epic as the GW1 Hall of Heroes PvP. There was more variety in GW1 HoH, and that made it a very popular competition. Add to that we also had structured GvG in GW1.

Having said that, Anet does put up money and resources into the current competition. Some of that comes from sponsors, so it’s not just Anet/NC Soft footing the entire bill. Do I think Anet is wasting money on the tourneys? Nah. The prize pool amount is small compared to the earnings Anet brings NC Soft, so there’s no real risk to the company’s bottom line. However, this is a double edge sword. GW2 E-Sports is not as popular as some other games, thus there’s less players participating. Less players competing means the same people who compete will most likely be the same ones who win or place high in the rankings each and every time.

The following needs to be done in order to expand GW2’s popularity and justify this game as E-Sports:

• 1) We need more SPvP variety. Capture the flag, King of the Hill, etc. Heck, GW1’s 3-way HoH made the game kitten fun.
• 2) Better rewards in SPvP
• 3) GvG. GvG mode is a must.
• 4) Cantha. Because Alliance Battles were a fun PvP alternative.

In closing, people need to remember this: NC Soft is the one who controls the purse-strings. I would love to see more attention to WvW, to QA, even allowing Devs time to interact with the community on the forums while on the clock. Putting up $100,000 on an E-Sport competition is fine. NC Soft can afford to put up another $100,000 to hire two or three more Devs.

Thanks SP for the well though out post. You made some good points. I agree if Anet really wants to go eSports they need to work on many things. Then and only then can I see making such an investment in it.

So you have no problem knowing that the money you have spent on the game might go to a biannual tournament that many don’t care about? How does WTS benefit us all? Sure it might be a small amount of money to Anet, but it is money we are sending them every time we buy gems. Like it or not but paying Anet is in one way or another paying for WTS and the money NCsoft or Anet invests in it.

Again, I am interested in what other players think how Anet or NCsoft might actually profit from the WTS. How does WTS overall benefit us all aside from the people on the WTS teams? Does anyone think WTS at a trade show will generate 2,000 sales? (2,000 X $50 price =$100,000) Just throw a guess out there.

We can’t know our (PvE-centric players) money is that which goes to WTS. Perhaps the tournaments are more than covered by the money PvP-players spend. Maybe they (the PvP players) feel their money spent on Gems, etc. is being squandered on improvements to the PvE side of the game.

I think ArenaNet knows best where to spend the money they earn. But, that’s just me.

Vayne.8563:

Having been in retail for a good portion of my life, There’s a saying that 90% of all promotion is wasted. Only 10 % works. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to identify which 10% works, so you have to do it all. I’ve found this to be largely true.

Guild Wars 2 PvP, in my opinion, has limited appeal. There aren’t yet multiple PvP types (not counting WvW here, since the question is about SPvP). It’s not widely watched on Twitch.

However, the real thing you really need to do to advertise is to get the name of the game out there. That’s it. Advertising is always expensive. A single ad on a TV site is likely to cost more than the WTS series in a year, and might not reach any more people likely to play.

What you need is for people to see the name over and over again, and the WTS helps that. When you consider Anet is making millions of dollars each and every month, it’s really not much money. It’s a drop in the bucket. And by itself it does nothing. But in combination with other things Anet does, it helps.

People think Anet doesn’t advertise well because of the way they release information in drips and drabs. But that’s part of promotion. They release a bit here and a bit there and every time they do, the MMO sites pick it up and write an article about it. Every time Anet announced a specialization it’s on the front page of massively, mmorpg.com etc. That’s half that battle, but PvPers don’t necessarily go to those sites.

Anet also wants to keep their name up on Twitch (which is likely why they’re sponsoring Twitch con this year).

Believe me when I tell you, this is a pretty cheap way to keep their name circulating in different circles. Directly I think it doesn’t do much, but what it does do is keep the name circulating.

This totally.

However,

It’s not a PVP Esports system that brings this type of promotion. It’s simply action in areas where gamers will view… IE Twitch.

I was a bit fan of what one of my old games did, they didn’t just toss up PVP tournaments, they didn’t just let the players handle it. They actively created a weekly event to showcase their players, period. That included a much larger variety of activities. They’d show and comment on housing. They’d do PVP tournaments in various areas (IE showcasing not only a sPVP tournament but also a special night of WvW). But, on top of that, they showcased and created a PVE tournament of sorts. They created an entirely new “raid” built specifically to test the mettle of the PVE guilds. They had running rankings (for this and PVP) allowing people to try and one up eachother.

It was pretty great.

The point I’m going towards is that I think their focus on PVP is wrong. I think they should be showcasing their players of various areas. They’ve donated gems to the Dungeon tournaments but how much effort have they put into promoting that really? Not only that, of course I’m a dungeon focused guy myself, but a dev broadcasted/promoted SW night could be awesome. Show players what you have. Maybe invite some specific higher end guilds to do some kind of contest on clearing out the Breach/VW on a private/limited instance. I’d love to see that.

The point is, twitch is free advertising to a market you want to advertise to. Limiting yourself to a single element of the game simply seems a waste. Sure, there are lots that enjoy the PVP in this game, but lets be honest, is it the strength or focus of this game? Hell kittening no it’s not. There’s much more to this game. So much more.

So my complaint is not that these type of things are bad, but that they aren’t doing more of it. You have PVE communities willing to help or even just strait up host the events, and more support from ANet could make it more popular, more entertaining and have it work for them. Give me a Fractal tournament with the new fractals and give out some new Mini with upgrades like the Llama. Give me a dev hosted WvW reset night in WvW, prizes for the top team after the show (of course showcase different matchups).

Basically, get more diverse and show your entire game ANet, the focus on one area is only going to do so much.

Jerus.4350:

The point is, twitch is free advertising to a market you want to advertise to.

I guarantee you Anet is paying for that Twitch time at the Twitch booth. It is certainly not free. There is no way Twitch would give away free time in a booth they paid for at a major show. Having managed several trade shows for some of my business partners, booth space can easily cost over $25,000 per show depending on the venue. Much more depending on the size of the display.

I’m glad PvP is getting some attention.

It needs more attention that it is currently getting.

I would personally love to see Anet’s staff size expand to a point where they can actually say they have 20+ people working exclusively on PvP and PvP related balance.

Same for WvW.

Anet not having world tournaments would be insane considering they want gw2 to be esports. pvp needs more funding not less.

i watched and enjoyed the last two WTS tournaments and i will be watching this one also.

Personally I don’t care for SPVP tourneys in this game at all. SPVP beyond jumping in for a match or 2 or 3 a day in unranked is just not fun. Its boring and the upper rank community is hostile, all the fun is in puging lowbie matches.

I also think they should have poured some resources and promoted WvW far more then e-sports, they actually had something original and for a long while without any competition whatsoever on the market until ESO came out. But they blew it. Most WvW players have left, either the game mode or game entirely due to their neglect. There are only 5 servers out of total 24 (North American), that can be described as “healthy” and another 4 as OK. Beyond that its a pretty dire picture.

Yea, I think its a waste, considering all the other stuff they could do with that money.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think ArenaNet knows best where to spend the money they earn. But, that’s just me.

As someone that has gone back and forth with you at times on the forum, I respect your opinion. So do you think the time and resources spent on WTS benefits the majority of GW2 players? Be honest.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think ArenaNet knows best where to spend the money they earn. But, that’s just me.

So do you think the time and resources spent on WTS benefits the majority of GW2 players? Be honest. Don’t skirt around the issue.

do you think the time spent on LS benefits all players? because i can tell you how much of that me and the majority of the pvp community has played. none.

different sections of the community require differnt things. pve needs LS so they can wind their brain down after work, and the pvp needs a world tournament. gw2 not having worlds for pvp would just be a joke.

I think I don’t know nearly enough about marketing an MMO to have an opinion as to whether the $100,000+ they may or may not spend on PvP is good for the game, as a whole, or not.

That’s why I said I leave it in their hands. I have never set foot in PvP, other than the festival-type games/activities, so any thoughts I might have would likely be biased.
PvP is not my thing; I find it frightening. I wish I did not, because it offers some things I might like to acquire. =)

This might be better served in an area with players that care about PvP. /shrug

choovanski.5462:

do you think the time spent on LS benefits all players? because i can tell you how much of that me and the majority of the pvp community has played. none.

different sections of the community require differnt things. pve needs LS so they can wind their brain down after work, and the pvp needs a world tournament. gw2 not having worlds for pvp would just be a joke.

But Anet doesn’t fly 15-20 PvE/WvW players twice a year out to a trade show to play a game at a Twitch booth at a cost of over $70,000 twice a year. Once again I refer you to this thread on how much people in the PvP forum seem to care about WTS and PvP. It’s up to 25 posts now after 4 days.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/World-Tournament-Series-Cologne-Brackets/

Yes, WTS seems to be the future of GW2 and will lead the path to making the game better. I’m glad Anet is spending over $100,000 a year on it. We will all, PvE, WvW, PvP benefit from it soon. Or not. I don’t have access to how much WTS benefits us all. So I am probably very wrong.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Jerus.4350:

The point is, twitch is free advertising to a market you want to advertise to.

I guarantee you Anet is paying for that Twitch time at the Twitch booth. It is certainly not free. There is no way Twitch would give away free time in a booth they paid for at a major show. Having managed several trade shows for some of my business partners, booth space can easily cost over $25,000 per show depending on the venue. Much more depending on the size of the display.

Yeah, upon typing that I realized that “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”, but, of course I wasn’t meaning going above and beyond like they are buying what you’re talking about, but simply using the system to promote to people who are viewing twitch.

(I do trade shows as well, it does get expensive)

Again, my main point is they could be doing a lot more by supporting their twitch advertising in different avenues. Pushing esports will get them some, but frankly PVP is just a small part of the game as a whole.

Jerus.4350:

Again, my main point is they could be doing a lot more by supporting their twitch advertising in different avenues. Pushing esports will get them some, but frankly PVP is just a small part of the game as a whole.

I agree and that is a major reason for this thread. Spending time and resources on advertising something most people don’t even seem to care about seems like a waste.

But like I said, I don’t have access to Anet’s data. They know something I don’t know and maybe know the WTS will gain about 1,000 game buyers at $50 dollars a piece to even cover the $50,000 prize pot. . If so, good for them and I’ll eat my words.

The tournament is simple advertising. If they didn’t do them, that money wouldn’t be going into the game, it would be going into some other form of advertising. PvE doesn’t need an incentive whereas PvP, especially competitive PvP, does. Without that incentive, there’d be no reason to play GW2 over another MMO that does offer paid tournaments. They’re simply trying to attract that type of player. (and ArenaNet has always wanted to be in the competitive PvP scene)

JustTrogdor.7892:

choovanski.5462:

do you think the time spent on LS benefits all players? because i can tell you how much of that me and the majority of the pvp community has played. none.

different sections of the community require differnt things. pve needs LS so they can wind their brain down after work, and the pvp needs a world tournament. gw2 not having worlds for pvp would just be a joke.

But Anet doesn’t fly 15-20 PvE/WvW players twice a year out to a trade show to play a game at a Twitch booth at a cost of over $70,000 twice a year. Once again I refer you to this thread on how much people in the PvP forum seem to care about WTS and PvP. It’s up to 25 posts now after 4 days.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/World-Tournament-Series-Cologne-Brackets/

Yes, WTS seems to be the future of GW2 and will lead the path to making the game better. I’m glad Anet is spending over $100,000 a year on it. We will all, PvE, WvW, PvP benefit from it soon. Or not. I don’t have access to how much WTS benefits us all. So I am probably very wrong.

anet spends much more money and DEV TIME on pve. pvp needs paid tournaments and worlds to be taken seriously even as a minor esport. if anet wants the mode to grow, and they clearly do- then they need to have these tournaments. abandoning and not supporting pvp is not going to do any good for gw2.

My problem with the WTS is that it doesn’t really feel like the kinda of advertisement you want to put out, in regards to GW2.

GW2 has many high points. Well-developed aspects, often bogged down by lots and lots of smaller issues but let’s face it, this goes for any MMO.
Only… it’s 5v5 sPvP really isn’t one of these points. It doesn’t even fit into the rest of the game, it’s so disconnected that the character you play is actually a copy of your actual character, not the exact same one.

If people pick things up based on what they see in the tournaments, they’ll expect a lot of things GW2 doesn’t provide. Because the whole rest of the game is entirely unlike the sPvP shown.

Yes, PvE and WvW have plenty issues, but I’d still rather show off these, because they portray the majority of the game a new player would see for a while much better. Plus I’m getting tired of people being hooked by the sPvP, then going back to their MOBAs like LoL, DotA2 or more recently HotS. Because really, 5v5 PvP peopel already play. And they’re probably happy with their much more balanced games. They’ll play GW2 for a bit, and sure, they generated the income, but it’s no long-term players recruited this way.

So yes it works as advertisement, but I really don’t feel comfortable with what it actually shows.

Yes, I think the 100,000 benefits the game as a whole and therefore is a benefit to non-Pvp players. Anything that attracts new players into the game will be a benefit; every new player means another box sale and potential future gem sales which is more money for Anet to develop with.

Whether or not you think GW2 is a viable Esport is semi-irrelevant. Anet wants it to be and this is part of the cost of business for doing that. Developing GW2 PVP into an Esport is going to be a long, many year road and doing WTS seems to be one of their key points for making it one. The more they can grow PVP as an Esport, the more it benefits everyone.

You should be thinking of the 100,000 as only partially for advertising, but also as investment in the future of the game.

There’s a recent video out about why ArenaNet does the Tournaments and advertising/Twitch, etc. I can’t remember which one; maybe someone else here on the forums remembers seeing it, and where.

As a regular pvp’er and long time digital marketer I feel it is a terrible investment of time and money.

I also don’t feel that Anet has a good grasp on what is required to make an esport today.

I feel these should be the number one priorities above everything:

1. Working leaderboard
2. Automated tournaments
3. Some sort of f2p pvp version.

IMO number 3 is the single smartest thing riot ever did. And they’ve basically set the bar for anyone who wants to compete with them.

Well to be honest, as a mostly PvE or RP player, the WTS has no interest to me.

However, I will also argue that if Guild Wars 2 doesn’t do WTS then yeah, it’d probably indirectly fall behind other games. From what I’ve seen in mainstream news, WTS and eSports is a fast growing event. It’d be foolish if ArenaNet didn’t use this opportunity to get Guild Wars 2’s name out there.

And you can also imagine the countless threads on these forums if ArenaNet didn’t too: “Why don’t ArenaNet put Guild Wars 2 on WTS? They spend a lot of money giving us Living Story, this is a slap in the face if you PvP” etc.

Also, I imagine $140,000 a year is a small amount compared to the overall annual budget of getting Guild Wars 2 out there.

You know, I’d honestly have no problem with them releasing a completely free PvP only version of GW2. GW1 had great PvP, and I’ve always thought it was kind of a shame that GW2s isn’t nearly as good. They could knock out a free PvP only client ballooning the player base for that mode by massive amounts, and probably make enough money off gem store purchases to fund all kinds of PvP development. Bring back the Hall of Heroes, organized Guild vs Guild, and new maps, etc. Sure, the PvP community is likely to go as toxic as League of Legends, but we’d always be able to leave and go play WvW or PvE if we get tired of the trash talking and misogyny.

Havent read all posts but I just wanted to answer my opinion.

I don’t mind them spending money on these stuff as I expect that it is accounted for in their budget. I don’t think these money would have been a big difference in the game. GW2 needs publicity and eSports is something Anet wanted to aim for with GW2 so I think it is a good thing.

I dunno how many people it attracts but in my opinion PvP in GW2 is atm very easy to quit. At the moment PvP in the game is handled very poorly, the so called Practice matches where players team switch just to be in the winning team, R80 players go to roflstomp new players or just troll and players who just goes afk. I have taken care of a few broken PvP-players who where close to leave the game becouse they got mangled in Practice… They didn’t even dare to go Unranked. When playing Unranked the changes is higher to meet a more skilled group than in playing Ranked as most players play Unranked becouse of no Skyhammer, Spirit Watch and Courtyard. The Specialization Patch increased damage a whole lot even in PvP and many players and alot of new players seems to not like this, it is hard to learn the basics of the game and get a good feel to it.

So even if WTS gives GW2 alot of new PvP players I don’t think most of them will be staying for long.
As I said, this is just my opinion and nothing I said are pure fact.

i’ believe those cost has been calculated in their marketing budget, and have minimal impact on the rest of the game.

One issue with trying to promote it as an esport is that they’re 3 years too late.

When GW2 had just come out, then yes, it was the time to push it as an esport. If wanted. But now? 3 years later? Once people have left and the game has gone stale and everything? Biiiiiiiiit late to think about that. Cater to the existent players, make the ones who got the game invest time again and spend more time in the cash shop by providing storyline and some PvP (ideally in WvW form, but that’s my personal take), and meanwhile work on Guild Wars – Team Battles (or something like that), sPvP as a separate game on a newer engine with hyper-specialized classes.

Carighan.6758:

One issue with trying to promote it as an esport is that they’re 3 years too late.

When GW2 had just come out, then yes, it was the time to push it as an esport. If wanted. But now? 3 years later? Once people have left and the game has gone stale and everything? Biiiiiiiiit late to think about that. Cater to the existent players, make the ones who got the game invest time again and spend more time in the cash shop by providing storyline and some PvP (ideally in WvW form, but that’s my personal take), and meanwhile work on Guild Wars – Team Battles (or something like that), sPvP as a separate game on a newer engine with hyper-specialized classes.

I disagree…I think they have barely scratched the surface of the potential PvP (and f2p) crowd. Lol gets 32m viewers after all…

Carighan.6758:

One issue with trying to promote it as an esport is that they’re 3 years too late.

When GW2 had just come out, then yes, it was the time to push it as an esport. If wanted. But now? 3 years later? Once people have left and the game has gone stale and everything? Biiiiiiiiit late to think about that. Cater to the existent players, make the ones who got the game invest time again and spend more time in the cash shop by providing storyline and some PvP (ideally in WvW form, but that’s my personal take), and meanwhile work on Guild Wars – Team Battles (or something like that), sPvP as a separate game on a newer engine with hyper-specialized classes.

You do know the hype and promotion around gw2 pvp (esports) was much bigger prerelease and the following months after release?
Pvp just launched in a poor state. The hype didn’t meet reality. A lot of people left right there and then.

And this thread… Plsss. You want them to spend the 250k on PVE? You think this hurts development in any way?

Sube Dai.8496:

As a regular pvp’er and long time digital marketer I feel it is a terrible investment of time and money.

I also don’t feel that Anet has a good grasp on what is required to make an esport today.

I feel these should be the number one priorities above everything:

1. Working leaderboard
2. Automated tournaments
3. Some sort of f2p pvp version.

IMO number 3 is the single smartest thing riot ever did. And they’ve basically set the bar for anyone who wants to compete with them.

Number 3 works when there’s a decent competitive infrastructure (in your post that would be 1 & 2).
Without 1 & 2, number 3 would fail. The numbers would grow but the turnover would be big.

butch.8136:

Sube Dai.8496:

As a regular pvp’er and long time digital marketer I feel it is a terrible investment of time and money.

I also don’t feel that Anet has a good grasp on what is required to make an esport today.

I feel these should be the number one priorities above everything:

1. Working leaderboard
2. Automated tournaments
3. Some sort of f2p pvp version.

IMO number 3 is the single smartest thing riot ever did. And they’ve basically set the bar for anyone who wants to compete with them.

Number 3 works when there’s a decent competitive infrastructure (in your post that would be 1 & 2).
Without 1 & 2, number 3 would fail. The numbers would grow but the turnover would be big.

That’s why they are #1 and #2

But f2p is the innovation that has made it hard for every one else.

butch.8136:

You do know the hype and promotion around gw2 pvp (esports) was much bigger prerelease and the following months after release?
Pvp just launched in a poor state. The hype didn’t meet reality. A lot of people left right there and then.

Yes, that’s what I said.
3 years ago they had the hype, but not the game.
Now they got (some of) the game, but the hype has long left and gone elsewhere.

It just feels like sunken cost fallacy at this point. sPvP as a whole does, actually.

SPvP is a small fraction of GW2 and $100k is a small fraction of the game’s ongoing development cost.

When buying gems we are generating a pool of revenue which Anet then allocates. We are not individually funding specific desires or inteeests in game. Anet is not spending YOUR money on things that you may not approve of. Its not your money. Someone who wants a sense that they can control how Anet speds its income needs to cough up far mord than the box cost of the game. Tens of millions of doallads ae likely to be required to purchase a controlling interest.

JustTrogdor.7892:

choovanski.5462:

do you think the time spent on LS benefits all players? because i can tell you how much of that me and the majority of the pvp community has played. none.

different sections of the community require differnt things. pve needs LS so they can wind their brain down after work, and the pvp needs a world tournament. gw2 not having worlds for pvp would just be a joke.

But Anet doesn’t fly 15-20 PvE/WvW players twice a year out to a trade show to play a game at a Twitch booth at a cost of over $70,000 twice a year. Once again I refer you to this thread on how much people in the PvP forum seem to care about WTS and PvP. It’s up to 25 posts now after 4 days.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/World-Tournament-Series-Cologne-Brackets/

Yes, WTS seems to be the future of GW2 and will lead the path to making the game better. I’m glad Anet is spending over $100,000 a year on it. We will all, PvE, WvW, PvP benefit from it soon. Or not. I don’t have access to how much WTS benefits us all. So I am probably very wrong.

The equivocation from this is strong.

That is merely a post showing the brackets, which a vast majority of PvP players and stream followers already knew. Additionally there’s nothing gained from posting in that thread show mentioning that is utterly irrelevant.

If you want to even try to use that thread as a tool for gauging interest what you should be looking at is the views. Even then that is unreliable seeing as forum goers are a small fraction of the community.

Vayne.8563:

People think Anet doesn’t advertise well because of the way they release information in drips and drabs. But that’s part of promotion. They release a bit here and a bit there and every time they do, the MMO sites pick it up and write an article about it. Every time Anet announced a specialization it’s on the front page of massively, mmorpg.com etc. That’s half that battle, but PvPers don’t necessarily go to those sites.

I thought it was because their ads tend to be on the terrible side of things? As in someone might watch it and the response is “what the hell are they trying to sell?”.

One of the video ads they released just before GW2’s launch was in that category.

Khisanth.2948:

Vayne.8563:

People think Anet doesn’t advertise well because of the way they release information in drips and drabs. But that’s part of promotion. They release a bit here and a bit there and every time they do, the MMO sites pick it up and write an article about it. Every time Anet announced a specialization it’s on the front page of massively, mmorpg.com etc. That’s half that battle, but PvPers don’t necessarily go to those sites.

I thought it was because their ads tend to be on the terrible side of things? As in someone might watch it and the response is “what the hell are they trying to sell?”.

One of the video ads they released just before GW2’s launch was in that category.

you mean this one ?

OP, I agree with you. It’s a waste of cash for a niche game mode, money that could go into paying a developer (or several) to actually make content. Y’know, that mysterious “endgame” the tryhards kew about? Yeah, that stuff.

Nevermind that our skills and traits get “balanced” around team PvP, which ends up falling flat elsewhere. Good roaming build in WvW? Enjoy it while you can, because that’ll get clipped because it’s “too good” in PvP.

So yeah, thinking about it, I’m severely irked that my money goes to support this extravagant waste that could be better spent updating the game and fixing the bugs so we finally feel we have a polished product instead of a 3-year beta.

There was way more money dropped into the sPvP in GW1, and way bigger tournaments, but as others have said, the PvP scene in GW1 was far superior to GW2, more game modes, better party make ups, you actually had to kind of relay on what your party members where doing, battles had more depth, now it just seems to be run in teleport/go invis, backstab, gank, honestly I find it boring.

In saying that, I feel that they are still trying hard to reach the E-Sports so they need to have big rewards for teams who compete until they reach that goal, because if they don’t, they would not have any outside viewing of sPvP.

They should have stuck to the same format as GW1 for skills/ skillbars, weapons and team setups, the 5 man mode party and same skill set for 3 years is what has held them back.

On one hand I say, it’s their money and if they want to promote one aspect of the game to get interest for it and draw in new players, then that sounds good to me.

However on the other hand, it feels like a waste. After 3 years they are finally putting in something besides variations of capture the spot. If I was playing PvP, I would have been bored to tears a long time ago. They simplified PvP way too much to keep their precious balance and it’s too late now to recapture the magic from launch.

Also, a part of that money comes from sponsors, so just part of that money come from Anet and that comes from the marketing budget, so I see no problem at all.

GW2 esport acts basicly as zombie. Still trying to predent its alive. 99.9% of gw2 players dont care about esport here. Devs obsession with esport cripple other much more important parts of game and its srsly time after 3 year to stop pretend that its gonna change.
Gamescom should be place to show something new juicy and important not tournament where few ppl care only because of insane price pool. I am basicly fanboy but this was worst game presenatation so far sry to say

Belzebu.3912:

Also, a part of that money comes from sponsors, so just part of that money come from Anet and that comes from the marketing budget, so I see no problem at all.

The majority of prize money and any prizes in almost every tournament, gaming or not, typically come from sponsors. I don’t think people quite understand that.

As was already pointed out, prizes (including the cash prizes) for tournaments and widely promoted events like this are almost always sponsor donations. This isn’t part of Anet’s budget being set aside for prizes. So, I don’t have any problem with the “costs”, really. I don’t personally participate in, watch, or care about the “esports” side of GW2, though, so I tend to just tune out any mention of it.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 PvP, in my opinion, has limited appeal. There aren’t yet multiple PvP types (not counting WvW here, since the question is about SPvP). It’s not widely watched on Twitch.

Believe me when I tell you, this is a pretty cheap way to keep their name circulating in different circles. Directly I think it doesn’t do much, but what it does do is keep the name circulating.

I clipped most of your post. Sorry. However, you noted PvP is not widely watched or followed. So to me it seems like a waste to spend over $100,000 a year on PvP tournaments that most people don’t care about.

Yes it is important to keep the name circulating, but I can think several ways to do that with $100,000+ that would be much more affective. As opposed to a tournament at a trade show that most people don’t seem to care about. Trade show traffic itself is very limited. In fact limited to the number of people that venture past the display a day. Once they visit the value is only on what they buy or their word of mouth. The word of mouth is also limited by how many people visit. A small number.

Having spent years in Internet marketing, $100,000 will buy a lot of name circulation across the internet if done properly. And I am willing to bet it would have a lot more value than a few hour PvP tournament that doesn’t appeal to many as far as circulating the brand. So I disagree. It is not a cheap way for Anet to market GW2. I think WTS is a waste of money as it only appeals to a very small audience.

Of course I do not work for Anet and have no access to their numbers. I have no idea how many sales are generated from each WTS. So I may be very very wrong.

Tournaments get on Twitch. A lot of people watch Twitch. For some people it’s their main source of gaming entertainment. Anet is obviously looking to get more involved with Twitch to the point where they’re sponsoring Twitch Con this year. Without some sort of export, the whole twitch angle is wasted.

Vayne.8563

A lot of people watch Twitch. For some people it’s their main source of gaming entertainment.

That is so inherently sad. :\

Then again, I have so much to do, the idea of watching any sport, e- or otherwise, seems like slacking.

I couldn’t care less about watching other people play so this doesn’t benefit me at all but I also don’t think it takes away from my enjoyment of the game. It’s a drop in the bucket for Anet, doubt it’s like they had a choice between creating more legendaries and running a tournament, and we get less legendaries because they chose the tournament.

PvP balancing ruining PvE is another matter but that doesn’t tie into the tournament directly as they’d probably try to balance PvP anyway…