Guild Wars 2

Edit: Between time past since creating this topic I’ve continued pondering over down-state and my perceived problems with the mechanic.

There was a time when I loved down-state! But admittedly I was naive.

I used to take pride in my expertise managing the play installed by the mechanic, and maximizing the simple aptitude fighting while downed felt like an achievement!
But sadly that hour was short-lived before it became grossly stagnant and routine. It only went down hill from there.

I felt like I had maximized my proficiency while downed, even perfecting timing on the ever annoying, lagging Wolf ability: Terrifying Howl to increase chances of survival! (I also exploited Nature’s Renewal during build experimentation when times permit) But obviously I couldn’t always recover despite playing at or near the skill-cap.

(Oh and FYI, I played more than just Ranger with my time spent in the game.)

1. And that constitutes my first problem with down-state – that as a result, skill is not a determining factor of combat!

And while the justification that this is a team game may ease some minds, it remains a very real and valid concern to many if balance and adjoining fun are to be of preceded value to PvP.

In the interest of publicizing my opinions throughout the community I’ve neglected adding suggestions to fill the void left behind from my argument.
Furthermore I disregard the suggestions in my former post as they were not well thought out and I no longer adhere to them.

I’ve condensed the original version to a spoiler listed below for the sake of interest. Unfortunately due to the post character cap I opted to edit out the old suggestions:

I was going to argue with you and defend downed state, but then I read your quiz, and I realized that you are right. The game would probably be better without it. Rezing is good, but too many cons. They should just invest in death animations =). I can’t imagine anyone prefers playing from their downed state than upstate.

I can’t really be bothered argueing the point, but downstate threads have been done to death in this forum since beta.

Some like it, some hate it and some don’t care either way.

The important thing to remember, is that Arena net loves it and I highly doubt it or any part of downstate and how it works will change besides very minute adjustments.

Best get used to it and roll with it, they won’t change it regardless IMO.

Ruler, thank you for your feedback; I’m glad you were able to critically question the routine, and I agree that the downed state simply cannot compete with prevalent play in its current form; based on the lack of depth.

Valkyriez, without bashing Arena Net, can you speculate as to why the downed state won’t, or likely will not receive any substantial changes?
Also, (if you care to mention), do you have any weighty opinion about the overall value of the state itself?

While I disagree with the Con that it promotes Team Oriented Gameplay (this is primarily a team game), I agree with everything else.

There is no denying that is unique and distinguished, but neither of those traits are inherently good.

Downed state balances glass canon builds. If it didnt exist, glass thiefs, for example, would be insanely overpowered.

It also adds depth and makes some utilities useful (rez,stability,immunity) that otherwise wouldn’t be used.

Imo, the pvp in this game would be boring without downed state

Erebos.6741:

Ruler, thank you for your feedback; I’m glad you were able to critically question the routine, and I agree that the downed state simply cannot compete with prevalent play in its current form; based on the lack of depth.

Valkyriez, without bashing Arena Net, can you speculate as to why the downed state won’t, or likely will not receive any substantial changes?
Also, (if you care to mention), do you have any weighty opinion about the overall value of the state itself?

Sure, I can speculate. I don’t think arena net intends to change it at the core mechanic level because of the other game types (PvE and WvW). Anet likes to keep thier ducks in a row with all game modes the same at the mechanic level. Down state works in PvE, as far as I understand anyway with my limited PvE exposure, and outside of some number tweaking I think it will remain relatively the same.

As to my opinion? I’m kind of in the not fussed section. I see its good points and bad points. It does an ok job in organized team play but is woeful in pug play. I would prefer changes to some of the down state abilities per class and the stomp mechanic but that’s just me.

I hate stealth stomps and used to hate quickness stomps. Other people loved them, each to thier own. As a Guardian main at the time I had access to neither so there was my bias.

Mandating team play takes away from the individual; limiting the effectiveness of oneself; depriving otherwise achievable glory and satisfaction

This is ridiculously important when it comes to competition and is the exact reason why I don’t participate in sPVP.

Everyone can agree that team play is extremely important and is what wins games. When it comes to the fans and the spectators; they’re looking for super heroes. Super heroes are athletes with extraordinary abilities.

GW2 doesn’t have athletes because the game doesn’t allow them to exist.

Erebos.6741:

• Overpowering effectiveness

Effective how? The five points gained from killing an enemy generally makes up for a fair amount of time spent fighting them.

Erebos.6741:

• Little depth gained from added level of complexity

I don’t think this is a con, but I can see where you’re coming from in that you feel the added depth from the downed state doesn’t outweigh its disadvantages, correct?

Erebos.6741:

• Interrupts and slows the pace of play

I disagree, in my mind someone that is downed is either dead or they’re a potential resurrect that I just need to keep down. It doesn’t interrupt my pace at all. I like the situations that having a downed player creates.

Erebos.6741:

• Overall depth lost from prevailing alternatives
• Favourable support for recuperation in stacked play; adds a higher level of bias

I don’t understand what you’re saying with these points.

Erebos.6741:

While adding depth to play, the downed state is such a powerful mechanic that it takes precedence from both teams to finish/rally the afflicted player, effectively condensing meaningful choice!

Someone that’s downed is down, not dead. That’s almost like saying that having to kill other plays limits choice. Dropping an AoE or condition on someone is enough to keep them down while you focus on killing another player. Control also becomes a more appealing choice for such a situation to keep people from helping the downed player, as opposed to control just being a snare to kill people with.

Erebos.6741:

1. What in your opinion is conceptually more difficult:
   a) Soloing two players with the downed state mechanic?
   b)Three without?
   - Which accomplishment would be more satisfying to you?

Both are practically impossible against competent players. I find winning a 2 on 3 or 3 on 4 more satisfying since you can overcome the odds with team work. Winning a 1 on 2 is satisfying and all, but it still usually comes down to the other two players being inexperienced or just dumb luck.

Erebos.6741:

1. What would you deem more fun - considering all mindsets:
   a)Downing two players solo but dying to a third; rallying the aforementioned downed players?
   b)The same scenario minus the downed mechanic?

Getting gang banged isn’t fun, but I try not to stick around when it turns into a 2 on 1.

Erebos.6741:

1. One or more players overwhelm you and defeat is inescapable. Would you:
   a) Rather delay death by entering the downed state?
   b) Die and sooner re-spawn?

I rather delay death since defeat is never inescapable with the help of a team mate and you’ll be killed rather quickly anyways if you’re in a no-win situation. It always makes me a little angry when a see someone get downed, I run over and start dropping war banner on them, and then they just allow themselves to get killed when I know they could’ve used one of their downed skills to buy just enough time for warbanner to res them.

Erebos.6741:

1. Two contingencies square-off and you are soon plummeted into downed state. Would you:
   a) Prefer an ally immediately rehabilitate you?
   b) Linger there for awhile until someone is able to rejuvenate you?
   c) Just die?
   - I could tell you what the enemy most desires.

Linger and wait for an ally to revive me. Dying would give the enemy team points. Immediate revive? How would that even work?

I think rallying needs to be removed. And the downed player needs to get an option to suicide since it could be abused by the attacker to try keeping them downed. Imagine 5 vs. 5 each with five different 1 vs. 1 (people fighting at different parts of the map) and one team winning all the 1 vs. 1… they could just leave them downed… let them bandage a bit.. and sometimes attack a bit not finishing them and not letting them rally or fully bandage.

Erebos.6741:

Valkyriez, without bashing Arena Net, can you speculate as to why the downed state won’t, or likely will not receive any substantial changes?

Look at all the balancing changes they have done over 8 months.

To ‘balance’ out the loss of downed state in their eyes would take FAR more, like, in the best case scenario, a year of dedicated testing/changing on the lack of downed state.

Anet’s fixing of the game is far too slow to even attempt a massive change in PvP like removing downed state…
They are having hell just making the flaming classes they have at the moment ALL BE VIABLE…
They are having hell just getting a working que system in place…

Everyone had high expectations for these guys, after a few months the reasonable and non-desperate realized that they, in all likelihood, can’t make a good game out of this mess.

Luthan.5236:

I think rallying needs to be removed. And the downed player needs to get an option to suicide since it could be abused by the attacker to try keeping them downed. Imagine 5 vs. 5 each with five different 1 vs. 1 (people fighting at different parts of the map) and one team winning all the 1 vs. 1… they could just leave them downed… let them bandage a bit.. and sometimes attack a bit not finishing them and not letting them rally or fully bandage.

yes you can keep people in downed state longer.. but as an abuse? no not really..

if you stop healing and just attack you die..

no need to “suicide” as that it self would be abused to get faster waypoint rallys so your solution try’s to solve a problem that doesnt really exist

First of all you cannot completely remove the downed state. This has been repeated over and over again but anybody with any idea of how these types of games work knows that there must be some mechanic where you can rez teammates. Otherwise coordinated burst would reign supreme and the game would devolve into who gibs who first in team fights since the first kill would cause a snowball effect.

However I do think downed state is pretty unbalanced between the classes. Also the effectiveness in the downed state is also debatable.

I know a lot of people don’t like downed state because it makes it harder to 1v2, and I understand owning noobs can be fun for some people, but it shouldn’t really be a factor when talking about the downed state because it matters very little in organized play.

Issues with the downed state currently IMO are the effectiness of AoE bombing downed players, the huge imbalances between downed state, and the often times it is beneficial for opponents to not stomp you and leave you to bleed due to delaying your to respawn. I would also would be interested in seeing how the game would play if rallying were removed from the game.

With custom arenas there are so many opportunities for Anet to give players what they want in unranked matches. The greatest update in GW2 history (for me), would be the one where you could choose to join a custom arena with the downed state disabled. Make it happen Anet!

Hammerheart, the con wasn’t that it “promotes” team play, but “commands” it! Due to the overpowering nature reviving players induces, coinciding with the loss of a teammate making stacked odds even steeper.
Furthermore Guild Wars 2 could still function as a team game with no negative repercussions as a result.
Calae iterates an aspect of my feelings well! – Appreciate your feedback btw ^^

Rerroll.9083:

Downed state balances glass canon builds. If it didnt exist, glass thiefs, for example, would be insanely overpowered.

Reroll, having the downed state cater as a failsafe with no player input is terrible design philosophy for the same reasons why proactive defence is more astute than reactive defence which is more calculating than passive defence; complexity and the risk : reward ratio of abilities.
- If that really is the case and burst was superseding proactive/reactive defence, then the core of the problem lies in those elements and shouldn’t excuse the downed state mechanic.

It also adds depth and makes some utilities useful (rez,stability,immunity) that otherwise wouldn’t be used.

While adding a level of depth, overall depth is lost due to prevailing alternatives as a result of the overpowering effectiveness downed state ensues.
Stability/immunities counteract disabling abilities which (while correlating to strategy involvement) don’t originate from down state and wouldn’t lose effectiveness if downed state was toned down/removed.
Resurrection could continue to exist the same way it does in other games; having no reliance on down state. I also concluded its existence in my suggestions.

Sorry for the lateness of my reply. Where I live the time is GMT + 9.5, and I’ve been busy with work, etc, but I intend to rebut all criticisms that don’t disprove my logic while willing to acknowledge/submit to evidence in the contrary.

Valkyriez.6578:

Sure, I can speculate. I don’t think arena net intends to change it at the core mechanic level because of the other game types (PvE and WvW). Anet likes to keep thier ducks in a row with all game modes the same at the mechanic level. Down state works in PvE, as far as I understand anyway with my limited PvE exposure, and outside of some number tweaking I think it will remain relatively the same.

Can we agree that PvE and PvP are separate in the fact that PvE places a bias on the player to be better than the environment, while PvP is wavering? Assuming you agree, do you think it’s fair to condone both play types to the same endowment?

Valkyriez.6578:

As to my opinion? I’m kind of in the not fussed section. I see its good points and bad points. It does an ok job in organized team play but is woeful in pug play. I would prefer changes to some of the down state abilities per class and the stomp mechanic but that’s just me.

Not trying to pick on you, but do you think the good points outweigh the bad?

How does it do an “ok” job in organised play but not disorganized? Could it be that it’s because organised play generally takes better advantage of the associated pros and cons likely due to… well, better organisation?

downed stated will not be removed.
get over it already.

Your perspective insight section further enforced my opinion that downed state should be at least removed from pvp…thanks man I hope your post turns some heads and allows for some discussion, compromise and change. =)

ninja.4139:

Erebos.6741:

• Overpowering effectiveness

Effective how?

What’s more effective:
a) A player with their tools and abilities before reaching downed?
b) Or after?
- I argue that players are exponentially more proficient before descending into downed.

Can you see how restoring someone to that aforementioned effectiveness can be seen as a massive leap in one’s own ability relative to other in-game competencies?

The five points gained from killing an enemy generally makes up for a fair amount of time spent fighting them.

The point systems main focus is to transmit an individual’s predominance in play. How does an accurate representation of that make up for being an accurate representation… ?

ninja.4139:

Erebos.6741:

• Little depth gained from added level of complexity

I don’t think this is a con, but I can see where you’re coming from in that you feel the added depth from the downed state doesn’t outweigh its disadvantages, correct?

No that’s not quite what I meant =(
You don’t agree with the design goal to achieve the maximum amount of depth out of the minimum amount of complexity?
See this video

…

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

downed stated will not be removed.

Why?

get over it already.

Why?

Erebos.6741:

Valkyriez.6578:

Sure, I can speculate. I don’t think arena net intends to change it at the core mechanic level because of the other game types (PvE and WvW). Anet likes to keep thier ducks in a row with all game modes the same at the mechanic level. Down state works in PvE, as far as I understand anyway with my limited PvE exposure, and outside of some number tweaking I think it will remain relatively the same.

Can we agree that PvE and PvP are separate in the fact that PvE places a bias on the player to be better than the environment, while PvP is wavering? Assuming you agree, do you think it’s fair to condone both play types to the same endowment?

Valkyriez.6578:

As to my opinion? I’m kind of in the not fussed section. I see its good points and bad points. It does an ok job in organized team play but is woeful in pug play. I would prefer changes to some of the down state abilities per class and the stomp mechanic but that’s just me.

Not trying to pick on you, but do you think the good points outweigh the bad?

How does it do an “ok” job in organised play but not disorganized? Could it be that it’s because organised play generally takes better advantage of the associated pros and cons likely due to… well, better organisation?

Hmm. You raise good points, but I do think it falls on deaf ears around here. Is it fair to condone both play styles to the same endowment? Probably not but it does lend consistency and makes the PvE to PvP transition easier, which is what Anet is all about.

I like the downstate when it’s used as a b utter against burst builds, and whn other players actually get out of thier tunnel vision and revive players back up. Those rally moments where you just get back up and then score a kill are fun times. When you get into downstates and sit there until you die tho……. It can be frustrating. It also makes the attacker stop to stomp, sacrificing mobility or makes him leave you to be revived by team mates.

Sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. Like I said, I’m not too fussed.

If your GMT +9.5, where u at? Darwin or Adelaide or SE ASIA?

Thank you for your response Valkyriez

If your GMT +9.5, where u at? Darwin or Adelaide or SE ASIA?

Adelaide

Darwin here, Holla!

…

ninja.4139:

Erebos.6741:

• Interrupts and slows the pace of play

I disagree, in my mind someone that is downed is either dead or they’re a potential resurrect that I just need to keep down. It doesn’t interrupt my pace at all.

You don’t deduce that extra management of downed opponents extends the time required to defeat them? And what if they rally?; Would you acknowledge the time then?
- This adversely affects the pace of play between downing multiple enemies.

Think of it like a race between two people with the addition/removal of the mechanic to see who could defeat the most enemies in a set amount of time. Who do you think would win?

ninja.4139:

I like the situations that having a downed player creates.

This is down to personal opinion, but I think based on your (presumed) enjoyment of other aspects of combat, that you would also enjoy transposing your time elsewhere. e.g. say, besting more opponents

ninja.4139:

Erebos.6741:

• Overall depth lost from prevailing alternatives
• Favourable support for recuperation in stacked play; adds a higher level of bias

I don’t understand what you’re saying with these points.

Overall depth lost from prevailing alternatives:

While adding depth to play, the downed state is such a powerful mechanic that it takes precedence from both teams to finish/rally the afflicted player, effectively condensing meaningful choice!

Favourable support for recuperation in grouped play; adds a higher level of bias:

I’m asserting here that the likelihood between stomping and reviving downed players favour reviving.

(Edit: Added critical evidence to my claim.)

- This is due to the effective options and counteractive options each side has to offer, which if you list tend to cancel each other out, e.g. stealth stomp/revive, stability stomp/revive, knockback, etc. But there are a couple disparities which decide the imbalance:

1. The revive ability is the counter equivalent of the stomp ability, however slightly stronger due to its stacking effect with multiple allies
2. Downed specific abilities such as Warriors “Battle Standard” have no measurable counter

Valkyriez.6578:

Darwin here, Holla!

Cool! Greetings from a fellow aussie

It doesn’t “interrupt and slow the pace of play”. IT IS THE PACE OF PLAY. kitten how can people not understand this so long after launch. Longer fights are better than shorter fights anyway.

If you see 4 people trying to revive you don’t all stack and stomp, that’s dumb, you aoe the crap out of them and get free damage on the ressers – stop trying to shoehorn gameplay from other games into a game that doesn’t use the same systems.

I’d prefer a 4th ability rather than bandage though, I don’t think you should be able to get yourself up (add bandage for pve only)

emikochan.8504:

If you see 4 people trying to revive you don’t all stack and stomp, that’s dumb

Perhaps you missed the part where I said “Now you’re probably thinking “that’s silly!” and subjectively you would be right!”

The purpose of that synopsis (and synopsis’ in general) is to get you to think about the subject matter and wholly investigate the question!

welcome in suggestions… lost my post due to it

anyway… i like downed state, it brings so many choices and possibilities to the game and makes unbalanced matches much more fun, because you are not dead when 3 guys focus you, you are downed and if your mate is good, he can still revive you and you can win

beating 1v3 would be worthless anyway, its not possible without gear advatage or brainless enemies…

emikochan.8504:

It doesn’t “interrupt and slow the pace of play”. IT IS THE PACE OF PLAY. kitten how can people not understand this so long after launch.

I think you interpreted that as strictly literal notation, where the hypothesis wherein suggests the reformed removal of the mechanic as a component of play.

emikochan.8504:

Longer fights are better than shorter fights anyway.

That is incredibly subjective.

MaXi.3642:

welcome in suggestions… lost my post due to it

Thank you! Yeah I got quite the shock at first; not knowing what had happened. Sorry to hear about your original post

beating 1v3 would be worthless anyway

You don’t really believe that… do you?

its not possible without gear advatage or brainless enemies…

While having newbish enemies definitely helps, I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s otherwise impossible. I’ll elaborate a little more in a future post addressing the same concern, but I’m done for the day.

I appreciate your feedback and hope to discombobulate (what an awesome sounding word! xD) your opinion in a latter post

biased an opinionated

Pros
Rewards team oriented play
Adds depth/strategy
Mandates team oriented play
Porlong play
Cons
Mandates team oriented play pro
Overpowering effectiveness – what does that even mean?
Little depth gained from added level of complexity - just opinion of shallow person?
Overall depth lost from prevailing alternatives - the only alternative you mentioned was instant death, which has less depth
Interrupts and slows the pace of play pro
Favourable support for recuperation in stacked play; adds a higher level of bias just your opinion, imo stacked play itself is disadvantageous, as you lose map control

Saulius.8430:

biased an opinionated

And this detracts from my argument… how?

Saulius.8430:

Pros
Rewards team oriented play
Adds depth/strategy
Mandates team oriented play
Porlong play
Cons
Mandates team oriented play pro
Overpowering effectiveness – what does that even mean?
Little depth gained from added level of complexity - just opinion of shallow person?
Overall depth lost from prevailing alternatives - the only alternative you mentioned was instant death, which has less depth
Interrupts and slows the pace of play pro
Favourable support for recuperation in stacked play; adds a higher level of bias just your opinion, imo stacked play itself is disadvantageous, as you lose map control

I’ve provided critical reasoning for my claims, that which you’ve wholly disregarded in your disclosure.

Without downed state, PvP would be a shallow game of 2v1 with the same result every time. It would be just a matter of coordinating a burst and move along to the next target. There’s nothing fun about knowing you have zero chance when you’re being ganged up by 2 players.

Downed state levels the playing field by giving the player a chance to rally and forcing the other player(s) to decide whether to stick around for the kill or move along to next objective.

PvP without downstate would result in an even more bunkerish-playstyle, as there is no acceptance to die. Thief would probably dissaper instantly from tPvP. Illusion of Life useless, many revive traits and abilities useless. So no, the depth of the actual state is claimed on the downstate.

Regards of a player that thinks a bit wider

Erebos.6741:

You don’t deduce that extra management of downed opponents extends the time required to defeat them? And what if they rally?; Would you acknowledge the time then?
- This adversely affects the pace of play between downing multiple enemies.

Think of it like a race between two people with the addition/removal of the mechanic to see who could defeat the most enemies in a set amount of time. Who do you think would win?

How many kills you get isn’t everything, and it doesn’t matter how long it takes to down someone if you’re fighting multiple enemies on a point since the people that are up will still be contesting the point. Even with multiple enemies I think the pace is fine. If you can’t finish someone quickly, then you should be avoiding off-point fights. If it takes a long time to finish someone on a point, it doesn’t matter as much since you’re still contributing by contesting/defending the point.

Erebos.6741:

While adding depth to play, the downed state is such a powerful mechanic that it takes precedence from both teams to finish/rally the afflicted player, effectively condensing meaningful choice!
Favourable support for recuperation in stacked play; adds a higher level of bias:

I’m asserting here that the likelihood between stomping and reviving downed players favour reviving, granted higher contingency (even amount of players).
Why you might ask? A fair and difficult question to answer, but here goes:

This is due to the effective options and counteractive options each side has to offer, which if you list, cancel each other out, e.g. stealth stomp/revive, stability stomp/revive, knockback, etc. What decides the imbalance is the stomping and reviving mechanics themselves.

To demonstrate this I’m going to use another synopsis:

After just being downed, four players of the allying team rally to try revive the player, the opposing team of five all counter by performing a stomp. What do think is the outcome?
a) The player is revived?
b) The player is defeated?
- Because of the stacking effect, the time taken to revive the player outrivals that of stomping.

Now you’re probably thinking “that’s silly!” and subjectively you would be right! But remember that there are a magnitude of possible outcomes! And conceptually they lead to favour of reviving – due to its stacking effect.

I don’t think that’s a good example since five people should never all try to stomp a player at the same time. Only one or two people should be trying to finish while the others apply pressure to the downed player or focus on other enemies. If all five enemies try to revive at the same time then they can all be interrupted by a single attack, not to mention AoE damage or the fact that they’re practically wide open for a single target spike. Plus chances are one of them will be too wounded or too frail to risk reviving, making them a prime target if all their team mates decide to revive the downed player instead of providing support. Even if they manage to revive the person, it’s still not a complete loss since that person has the downed health penalty and they’re vulnerable when getting up. If you can interrupt their heal or snare them before they get away they can quickly be downed again.

Also, the only time I EVER use the stomp is when I think it’ll be a guranteed kill, otherwise I just attack the player. I always attack them a few times before beginning the stomp too to make it harder to revive them. If the player has nobody else helping them, that’s when I stomp to blow their teleport or KD skills since trying to stomp twice is often times faster than attacking.

While it does prolong fights, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. Like I said, kills aren’t everything. I enjoy the power struggle.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

PvP without downstate would result in an even more bunkerish-playstyle, as there is no acceptance to die.

That doesn’t even make tangible sense. Please explain why you think dying without downed is so bad.

Thief would probably dissaper instantly from tPvP.

No they wouldn’t.

So no, the depth of the actual state is claimed on the downstate.

Also doesn’t make sense, although I think what you meant to say was that “the downed state adds depth” – which I never claimed it didn’t, so what you really meant to interject was that because the downed state adds depth it (somehow) refutes my affirmation that asseerrrrtss:

• Overall depth lost from prevailing alternatives

My rebuttal:
Depth basically means “possible number of meaningful choices bound by rules, pertaining to a setting or scenario.”

In the circumstance that a player is downed, strategy didn’t change; it remains constant. You could choose to stop all action and spam the /dance emote, but (however funny), that wouldn’t be a very effective strategy. This is where depth comes in; effective choice; where the environment predetermines effective means to counteract the situation.

The situation is a downed enemy. Motivated by your goal to win, (capturing points and so forth), you want to overcome this obstacle that is the player. This is where you best choose from your range of options to dispose of said player.
You have two options:

1. Kill it with fire!
2. Stomp its brains out! >_>

Stomping is the most efficient means, but adding more players into the mix can bring about nuisances which prevent you from landing a stomp via countering your (presupposed) counteractive measures.
Using foresight you could opt for the less disabling route to damage the remaining life away while simultaneously applying protective and restrictive measures to prevent death of yourself and recuperative strategem of the downed player. This ultimately limits your effective course of action; narrowing effective, selective output (not necessarily a bad thing because it takes deductive means to find that result! But lowers your chance of success).

That was deep (what did you expect? We explored depth!) But think of the depth involved in before downing the player and the downed players perspective.
Now I know what you’re thinking, “You just clearly explained how the downed state adds depth!” And this is how adding depth made it onto my pros list (on a technicality),but, the original allegation takes into account if the downed state were removed, and on the premise that prevalent play has greater depth and would see more play if downed state were removed (see pace of play), my statement holds merit.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Illusion of Life useless, many revive traits and abilities useless

Erebos.6741:

- To achieve this and solve the burden of consequential redundant-made abilities, redesign downed-specific abilities (e.g. Toss Elixir R) to instantly revive the player. The amount of players and longevity of the effect can vary between professions if you want to avoid homogeneousness.

Erebos.6741:

Resurrection could continue to exist the same way it does in other games; having no reliance on down state. I also concluded its existence in my suggestions.

Regards of a player that thinks a bit wider

I find downed state in Pvp rather disturbing to be honest…for in the most of cases, it just forces me into lie there and wait for an unavoidable banner. Makes me feel rather pathetic, that’s all personal vision I have, anyway. I would prefer to just die as soon as I fall.
And, I truly hate when a teamate or a friend ends up downed and killed as well, just for trying to rez me, for then I feel guilty. I prefer to die alone than bring anyone with ne x)

Pip.2094:

I find downed state in Pvp rather disturbing to be honest…for in the most of cases, it just forces me into lie there and wait for an unavoidable banner. Makes me feel rather pathetic, that’s all personal vision I have, anyway. I would prefer to just die as soon as I fall.
And, I truly hate when a teamate or a friend ends up downed and killed as well, just for trying to rez me, for then I feel guilty. I prefer to die alone than bring anyone with ne x)

Thank you for sharing

While I wouldn’t go so far as to describe it as “disturbing”, I personally don’t like being at the mercy of other players, friendly or foe.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m all for working as a team, but I don’t want to be utterly dependent on them either.

Oh and before I forget (again), thank you very much Zanthrax for the support

Amended the post arguing for the refined point:

• Favourable support for recuperation in grouped play; adds a higher level of bias

Erebos.6741:

- This is due to the effective options and counteractive options each side has to offer, which if you list tend to cancel each other out, e.g. stealth stomp/revive, stability stomp/revive, knockback, etc. But there are a couple disparities which decide the imbalance:

1. The revive ability is the counter equivalent of the stomp ability, however slightly stronger due to its stacking effect with multiple allies
2. Downed specific abilities such as Warriors “Battle Standard” have no measurable counter

I must admit, one thing that bothers me about the downed state is being able to get up again on killing a target – this makes no sense at all.

I think the downed state should stay, and you should be able to revive yourself/be revived by allies, but that should be the only way of being revived. Otherwise you should remain down and only able to use those skills until you bleed out.

Luthan.5236:

I think … The downed player needs to get an option to suicide since it could be abused by the attacker to try keeping them downed. Imagine 5 vs. 5 each with five different 1 vs. 1 (people fighting at different parts of the map) and one team winning all the 1 vs. 1… they could just leave them downed… let them bandage a bit.. and sometimes attack a bit not finishing them and not letting them rally or fully bandage.

^This. COMPLETELY.

There is nothing i hate more than sitting around in a downed state for what seems like aeons with somebody pinging at me with enough damage to keep me downed… just give me a way to speed up the inevitable..

Fallen Conspirator.9172:

Luthan.5236:

I think … The downed player needs to get an option to suicide since it could be abused by the attacker to try keeping them downed. Imagine 5 vs. 5 each with five different 1 vs. 1 (people fighting at different parts of the map) and one team winning all the 1 vs. 1… they could just leave them downed… let them bandage a bit.. and sometimes attack a bit not finishing them and not letting them rally or fully bandage.

^This. COMPLETELY.

There is nothing i hate more than sitting around in a downed state for what seems like aeons with somebody pinging at me with enough damage to keep me downed… just give me a way to speed up the inevitable..

Don’t bandage? You bleed out naturally if you don’t channel 4.

Valkyriez.6578:

I can’t really be bothered argueing the point, but downstate threads have been done to death in this forum since beta.

Some like it, some hate it and some don’t care either way.

The important thing to remember, is that Arena net loves it and I highly doubt it or any part of downstate and how it works will change besides very minute adjustments.

Best get used to it and roll with it, they won’t change it regardless IMO.

The downed State is one of many reasons I quit playing this game.
ArenaNet can “Love” The downed state all they want, Its not going to make me Hate it any less, Downed state is Unbalanced and Game breaking to me and Unless it is either changed in a way that makes the game more balanced or removed I will not be coming back, There are plenty of other games I can enjoy instead of wasting time “just rolling with it” and Im sure there are plenty of other people just like me, so If ArenaNet doesn’t mind losing that chunk of its players then by all means, keep on loving it all you want.
Just my take on it.

Tater [+1]
Thank you and I couldn’t agree more!

I have also refined my argument to:

Down-state places vantage that can’t be overcome through the expediency of player tools and abilities (skill) and therefore impedes balance and fair play at the mechanical level.

This ultimately punishes players – making for less interesting play.

I hate downed state. Every time I am downed I take my hands off the keyboard and maybe go get a drink.

It sounds good on paper to remove it but try playing a multiplayer game where there’s no revive function at all and you’ll find that you’ve more than likely grown accustomed to the “downed state”. The only problem I really have with the down state is that some classes have HUGE advantages in the downed state compared to others, advantages such as Ranger, Mesmer and Warrior. God have mercy if you go downed the same time against one of them.

Hello Dommmmmmmmmm,

I apologize for my suggestions as they weren’t well thought out at the time (I’m thinking of editing them out).
However, while I’m naively confident I could think of better alternatives, I’m currently more interested in sharing the idea that down-state is venomous to the game.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

The only problem I really have with the down state is that some classes have HUGE advantages in the downed state compared to others, advantages such as Ranger, Mesmer and Warrior. God have mercy if you go downed the same time against one of them.

While I understand your concern, I believe that even if down-state was standardized in effectiveness across professions, if it still wrongly punishes play and reduces player capability it will continue to hinder balance/fair play.

Downstates are hugely unbalanced, some classes have it sweet where as others are easy to finish. Making it the same for all classes would probably be fair, how easy is it to stomp and engineer compared to a mesmer for example.

I love the downed state in PvE. Some Professions definitely need some “fixing”. But some of my most exciting moments are fighting to rally and then come back to win the battle.

I know zilch about PvP, and I’m not quite sure what’s with the “[F] Finish Them!” crud in WvW (that doesn’t seem quite right). As long as they don’t remove it from PvE I see no reason why they can’t take it out of the the other aspects of the game or otherwise change the mechanics of dying.

Conan.8046:

Making it the same for all classes would probably be fair, how easy is it to stomp an engineer compared to a mesmer for example.

I agree with your logic, but do you also think it’s fair to reward negative play with reviving capability?

Doesn’t this go to counter-objectify the reward in outplaying/downing enemy players?

Isn’t this penalizing higher play by subjecting players to pain through inequity at no fault of their own?