PvP and PvE balance gap growing larger?

PvP and PvE balance gap growing larger?

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Posted by: TheKillerAngel.3596

TheKillerAngel.3596

This is a serious question I’d like to see addressed by the developers, and while it’s been brought up many times in the past, I think it needs to be brought up again in light of the patch leak (which may not be entirely true).

The Ranger is generally considered a solid class in PvP. However, it is considered one of the weakest classes in PvE. Conversely, the Warrior is one of the staple classes of speedrun dungeon groups, but is considered rather weak in PvP.

The latest iteration of patch notes seem to largely be driven by the demands of the PvP community. Balancing for PvP is important. It is arguably more important than balancing for PvE, since PvP is competitive and thus more emotionally salient. However, when changes designed for one type of environment carry over to an entirely different environment, it can cause or contribute to an extremely uneven experience for players.

For months, it has been proven that the ideal group composition for speed clearing most PvE content consists of 2-3 warriors, 1-2 guardians, and 1-2 mesmers. Proven is a strong word, but I think the latest patch notes, if accurate, will not do much to substantially change that. From what I hear, necromancers got some loving, but thieves and rangers will continue to be seen as underperforming kits in a non PvP setting, potentially more so than before.

Think stacking and skipping trash is cheap?
Read: Playing to Win.
Guide: How to play a Mesmer in dungeons.

(edited by TheKillerAngel.3596)

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Posted by: Nretep.2564

Nretep.2564

Ranger is not weak in PvE, nor is warrior.

The weak ones in PvE are Mesmer and Thief. Simply because they’re strong in PvP. Once you buff them for PvE (imagine confusion buff for mesmers), they’d be overpowered in PvP. The developers still fear the distinction of skills/ traits in PvE, WvW and PvP. They try to balance in general and set their limits on PvP. So instead of buffing confusion in PvP and “balancing” it for PvP, they just nerfed it in PvP.

Yes, one of the most desired party constellation is 4 Warrior + 1 Mesmer/ Guardian. That is because Warriors deal most damage and the mesmer can support them (Mainly TimeWarp) or the Guardian buff them and keep them alive. Rangers are good in long range, but melee is always stronger (as it should be).

In most MMORPGs, Thiefs and Rangers are not really party gamers, but loners. But in GW2, rangers are fine. The loners are Necros and Thiefs. And those are the two classes I like the least in my parties. Third least would be (dmg) elementalist. Those three deal average damage with low surviability and about zero party support.

But generally I agree, to “completely” distinct skills and traits in PvE, PvP and WvW and each underwater.

PvP and PvE balance gap growing larger?

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Posted by: Dangerkips.6035

Dangerkips.6035

The core of the issue there is that damage is the best thing to have in the game. It’s why warriors scale so well, and it’s why you never need more than just one support in your group.

I’m not sure how they would go about fixing this. They’d either have to bring warrior damage down in return for some more group utility, or buff dmg on every other class. Now i’m not one to cry for nerfs, but considering the options, the former would be less work for the dev team and wouldn’t cause a plethora of pvp balance issues.

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

mesmer is not weak in PvE…
i used an ele and quit it when they “balanced” ele…
I use mesmer now and in fotm and most dungeons is awesome…..between the subpar classes.

Its also requested for support because of signet of inspiration+TW

Ranger and necro are generally uberbad in Dungeons.
I would say ele also being extremely situational…(no i won t play conjured weapons its just a subpar warrior…) along with eng.

Thief is extremely powerful but sadly most of his players are “www thieves” (i won t add more..).

mesmer has few builds that works somehow without being OP.

Then there are guardians and warriors…..if you don t play one you will have to wait a lot for parties.
The situation is ridiculously broken as it is……and yet they keep nerfing weak pve professions…..

P.S. the dps in PvE is not the only issue..
The enormous FAIL is the INSANE amount of dps of some professions that are so out of scale that ruins balance….

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

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Posted by: Bright.9160

Bright.9160

ITT: people that have no idea about speedrun setups talking about speedrun setups.

The only dungeon where 4 warr/1mes is ideal would be CoF p1. Put that comp in any other dungeon and you’re running a subpar group setup and in some dungeons you’re probably even going to get yourself killed because of it.

Eles are a lot stronger than Mesmers by the way, and Mesmers are mainly useful for their chained reflects and Time Warp. Take the reflects away and not a single serious dungeon team would run mesmers anymore.

Complain about Ele conjure builds all you want, it does more damage than a warrior, and with the new guardian build we’re running in our teams, it pumps non-stop Might as well. Couple that with the supposed patch notes, where Fire fields might be going to give Fury and we will most likely switch to a 1 guard / 1 warr / 2 ele / 1 mes setup, because of the higher damage on the eles, the non-stop might and Fury. The warrior would mainly be used as banner b*tch.

This is completely off topic to the OP though, since he’s complaining about rangers being trash.

Also, anyone that opens their post with this

Ranger is not weak in PvE

and then goes on talking about speedrun setups in PvE should be prepared to become a laughing stock, because not a single speedrunner could say that sentence with a straight face. Unless you were being so ironic I didn’t even catch on to it.

Legion of Doom [LOD] – Death ’n Taxes [DnT]
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu

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Posted by: Nretep.2564

Nretep.2564

When I said that “mesmer is weak in PvE”, I was talking about its solo abilities. Like Thief, they’re meant to kill/ disable in PvP games, and those abilities suck in PvE. Interrupt, Confusion, Stunning, TargetBound skills (illusions), Stealth and High Single Dmg Burst abilities show you that they’re rather meant to be used in 1v1 than in PvE.

Mesmers do great in PvE due to party skills, not because themselves. A party with 5 Mesmers surely would be aweful.

That’s why I compared them to Rangers, Necros (, dmg Eles) and Thiefs with almost zero party support – at least the way they’re usually played. Mesmers damage is comparable with those. But compared to those mesmer have high survivability and party support.

[ Edit ]
@Bright
I don’t consider CoF p1 speedruns as “normal gameplay” or even “normal PvE”. It’s something that needs to be removed from GW2.

(edited by Nretep.2564)

PvP and PvE balance gap growing larger?

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

Rangers are one of the weakest classes in PVE however it extends far beyond the problems of PVP it’s basically a problem with pets overall.

As an engineer I can tell you that even with the new patch being exactly like the leak, turrets are still completely useless, and here’s why. they die in five seconds under the strain of ANY AOE it literally does not matter what AOE you use against them they croak.

The problem is pets need a base immunity to AOE damage or this will happen every time. They need to not only have a base immunity but they need to not be able to be autotargeted that way all is fair in pet heavy classes.

Until this is done in this game it’s going to be just like the stunlock mechanics, broken. (stunlock being no timer in between stuns to prevent being bounced around or knocked over or continuously made dizzy by these kinds of attacks).

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

When I said that “mesmer is weak in PvE”, I was talking about its solo abilities. Like Thief, they’re meant to kill/ disable in PvP games, and those abilities suck in PvE. Interrupt, Confusion, Stunning, TargetBound skills (illusions), Stealth and High Single Dmg Burst abilities show you that they’re rather meant to be used in 1v1 than in PvE.

Mesmers do great in PvE due to party skills, not because themselves. A party with 5 Mesmers surely would be aweful.

That’s why I compared them to Rangers, Necros (, dmg Eles) and Thiefs with almost zero party support – at least the way they’re usually played. Mesmers damage is comparable with those. But compared to those mesmer have high survivability and party support.

[ Edit ]
@Bright
I don’t consider CoF p1 speedruns as “normal gameplay” or even “normal PvE”. It’s something that needs to be removed from GW2.

Ok i can agree on some things…
just avoid the thing about thief lacking support

Its currently one of the most versatile PvE classes.

Just it takes some skills to use differently from other game modes thus you find really few good thieves….

But when you find them you see how much they have (for dungeons and fractals at least).

some examples:
-bypass defiant
-shadow refuge
-smoke field
-scorpion wire
-daggerstorm

and much more……they are good almost anywhere…..if used by skilled players in pve :/.

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

(edited by LordByron.8369)

PvP and PvE balance gap growing larger?

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Posted by: Bright.9160

Bright.9160

[ Edit ]
@Bright
I don’t consider CoF p1 speedruns as “normal gameplay” or even “normal PvE”. It’s something that needs to be removed from GW2.

I think CoF should be nerfed as well, and I seriously don’t get why Anet is letting their in game economy inflate so hard without doing anything about it…

But I think the bigger problem is with rewards in general, people getting rewarded for afk spamming autoattack, every dungeon being equally rewarding, although not taking the same amount of effort. The hardest dungeon (Arah) being the least rewarding of them all, etc.

But, apparently, they’re going to fix the reward system at the end of the summer, so let’s see what that gives…

Legion of Doom [LOD] – Death ’n Taxes [DnT]
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu

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Posted by: Dragin.4520

Dragin.4520

if you want kitten ranger damage take it in a dungeon run. play a ranger and learning to micro manage your pet. and when both of your pets are dead and all you got is your weapons you are also losing 40% more damage for a whole min because of the cd on your pet. there are some rangers that know how to greatly avoid that problem but most don’t. so unless anet fixes that issue rangers won’t ever be totally viable in a dungeon run in many peoples eyes.

Dragonbrand
Dragin Wind ranger of Duel

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Posted by: TheKillerAngel.3596

TheKillerAngel.3596

Ranger is not weak in PvE, nor is warrior.

The weak ones in PvE are Mesmer and Thief. Simply because they’re strong in PvP. Once you buff them for PvE (imagine confusion buff for mesmers), they’d be overpowered in PvP. The developers still fear the distinction of skills/ traits in PvE, WvW and PvP. They try to balance in general and set their limits on PvP. So instead of buffing confusion in PvP and “balancing” it for PvP, they just nerfed it in PvP.

Yes, one of the most desired party constellation is 4 Warrior + 1 Mesmer/ Guardian. That is because Warriors deal most damage and the mesmer can support them (Mainly TimeWarp) or the Guardian buff them and keep them alive. Rangers are good in long range, but melee is always stronger (as it should be).

In most MMORPGs, Thiefs and Rangers are not really party gamers, but loners. But in GW2, rangers are fine. The loners are Necros and Thiefs. And those are the two classes I like the least in my parties. Third least would be (dmg) elementalist. Those three deal average damage with low surviability and about zero party support.

But generally I agree, to “completely” distinct skills and traits in PvE, PvP and WvW and each underwater.

I meant to say that Warrior is weak in PvP.

Think stacking and skipping trash is cheap?
Read: Playing to Win.
Guide: How to play a Mesmer in dungeons.