PvP balance = pve nerf? Why?
I actually don’t understand this either. in guild wars they had pvp specific versions of skills that could only be equipped in pvp. just like in GW2, in GW1 they also had specific areas meant for pvp as well. decoupling pvp, wvw and pve skills SHOULD be a thing, to keep each balance separated.
there could be an argument made that anyone wanting to switch over could find drastic changes in their build/playstyle depending on that decoupling, but they’ve shown the ability to do it in GW2. in one of the recent patches, they streamlined the pvp and pve version of a weapon skill that stacked 4 bleeds in pve and 2 bleeds in pvp.
so they’ve shown it’s possible. it’s BEEN done. i don’t see why this isn’t standard across most or all abilities apart from the time it would take. pvp and pve players would be much more satisfied with their gameplay without trying to tiptoe between the two.
They are trying too hard to unify the skills under all game modes into one set. But the problem, and always has been, is that players and mobs scale too differently for this to work right.
Players scale horizontally in order to gain vertical power. Trait combos, effect triggers, etc. Mobs almost exclusively through HP and Power; and do so almost an order of magnitude higher then players.
As long as this remains the norm for the game design, the skills will NEVER behave the same between PvE and PvP modes.
They think it’s to confusing for people if their skill works slightly different or does a different bit of damage.
It’s shocking how utterly incompetent and moronic anet thinks players are. The nanny-developer.
Of course these gamemodes should all be balanced differently. You cannot possible compare two small times fighting over who gets to stand in a fairly small circle, to 40 people bashing into a Multi-phase worldboss, to 30 vs 30 players clashing in wvw, to 5 players fighting a set of mobs and bosses in dungeons.
And yet all of this is to be balanced under the same design that is primarily focussed on pvp with only very few differences, altough they do exist.
It’s beyond frustrating to have to change gear, runes, sigils, whatever in pve or wvw solely due to changes as a result of pvp. Pvp’ers can just hobble to a vendor and pick up an entire different set of gear, runes, sigils, weapons, everything! For free! The players who have to spend time and effort to get theirs get screwed over, and have their time spend consistently invalidated.
Im sure they could do what the eventually did in GW1 around the time of nightfall just before Eotn and make two variants of skills. There was a PvE variant as well as a PVP counterpart. Worked out well for both peoples because this way the skill team only had to really worry about the PVP part of it.
your in PVE? it stays PVE
your in WvW or PvP? it switches to PvP variants
a bunch of us have been asking for skill splits for years. it’s never gonna happen. it’s depressing.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
your in WvW or PvP? it switches to PvP variants
I would expect wvw to use the PvE-version of skills and traits, since it already uses PvE gear and PvE level. It also fits since WvW is PvP with a lot of PvE elements. Besides, as Anet has said, WvW is inherently inbalanced anyway.
That said, if Anet does not seperate skills and traits, then it makes sense that they balance the game mainly arround PvP since that is where balance is needed the most.
Because you don’t get E-Sports from PvE sadly, so the game is balanced around PvP, it took them years in GW1 before they finally separated skills from PvE and PvP, so they could balance 1 game style separate from the other, without affecting the other game mode.
I find that it’s generally harder to kill players than it is to kill mobs, big bosses with gajillions of health and timers to produce “difficulty” aside. If players are harder to kill, it stands to reason — at least to me — that if a skill is too efficient at killing players, it’s too efficient at killing mobs — only more so.
a bunch of us have been asking for skill splits for years. it’s never gonna happen. it’s depressing.
They have the ability to balance skills separately just they are lazy to do so and even with GW1 very very rarely they would split balance skills for pvp and pve.
At Op this is how Anet has always done it and its why many players called GW1 nerf wars since many usefull skills for pve got nerfed due to pvp all the time.
“If only ANet had some kind of forum they could use to communicate with us……”
“ANet. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to not mess up.”
Mod “Posts created to cause unrest with unfounded claims are not allowed” lmao
“ANet. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to not mess up.”
Mod “Posts created to cause unrest with unfounded claims are not allowed” lmao
Is there evidence that the changes don’t also improve PvE parity? I mean beyond “it’s a downgrade for a class I play and I don’t like it”?
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
They think it’s to confusing for people if their skill works slightly different or does a different bit of damage.
It’s shocking how utterly incompetent and moronic anet thinks players are. The nanny-developer.
I disagree – my thief worked differently in pvp than in wvw so trying to figure out a build in pvp (for wvw) was useless, also the balance is based on pvp but there’s still wvw which is handeled as if it were pve.
Even if I know that pvp works differently than pve it’s very hard to adapt the muscle memory.
So yeah they might change it as this game does everything pve players want – but I seriously hope they don’t.
Ok so there has to be a way around this issue. I was just thinking. How come pve skills get nerfed when they are having issues in pvp. I mean I understand the engineers grenade was not responding as intended. So yeah they needed fixed. though from what I can tell it is first pvp that brought about this detection. But before that engineer’s mortar kit to powerful in pvp so it gets balanced in pvp and feels like a nerf to pve. My question is if something in pve is work good but is to powerful in pvp why does pve get nerfed while pvp gets balanced? I’m just wondering on this I have seen other things in the past similar to this. I mean now like some others I feel mortar is way weaker then it should be in pve. I mean I can do 6000 dmg easily on my elementalist I have loads of fields but now I’m lucky to get over 1500 with my mortar on a crit. Where is the balance in that? And it is not a case of “learn to play” I may not be the best but I’m not the worst player ever. And I know how to equip and use my skills and traits. If you get over 1500 with a mortar let me know how you manage it… So yeah why is it pve gets nerfed for pvp? Why is it ok for one class to be able to do 6000points easily while the other class who should do similar with the chosen weapon does WAY less. I just want to understand the logic behind this. I just name this situation cause it is recent there are other pve nerfs that was brought about by pvp being unbalanced.
It absolutely is a case of learn to play. Engi’s are not based around auto attacks. We’re a profession that gives you carpal tunnel. Swap around get your big hitters out, then auto attack. Mortar was too good. Grenadier was too good.
Even with those nerfs we’re still sitting at the second highest theoretical damage in PVE. SECOND HIGHEST. What is this complaint about? We have great burst potential, great sustained damage, it’s all AE, so what’s the problem?
The logic behind the mortar nerf is that it was too much damage. It was exceeding bomb (which is our highest 1 skill) but you could land it from 1500 away! Not sure how that can be considered right. So now it’s nicely tucked away above rifle, below bomb, and about the same as all 3 nades, but again landable from further away, which along with field generation was the point of it, our long range option.
The grenadier nerf, well, it wasn’t working as intended. To go on, they specifically changed the old grenadier trait and made the 3 nades baseline because they felt that a 50% increase in damage from a trait was a bit absurd. Well, with how grenadier was working it was a 33-66% increase on your standard nade skills and apparently 100% increase on your barrage. Can you explain the logic of thinking that was in any way intended?
Again I’ll say Engi is sitting quite pretty right now. And I do agree with the idea of splitting PVP and PVE balance, but again, these examples were changes that were done right for both sides.
Because you don’t get E-Sports from PvE sadly, so the game is balanced around PvP, it took them years in GW1 before they finally separated skills from PvE and PvP, so they could balance 1 game style separate from the other, without affecting the other game mode.
The DnT run dungeon tourneys are actually not far off from the ANet advertised PVP tourneys, just saying.
Hrm, well to be fair we already deal way too much damage in PvE. Although the PvE issue cannot be solved just with reducing our damage (although that’s one component). What I’d do is something like this:
- Work on scaling encounters 1-100 players better. Bring in additional gameplay elements above X players, but these need to smoothly disable if players leave the combat area again.
- Re-enable the AI used in early alpha, where enemies would actively dodge AE, gank the squishiest or lowest-HP target on queue, etc. It was punishing, yes. It made you actively use the combat system. And provided an incentive to bring some personal defence.
- Slightly reduce player damage again.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I do agree with Carighan, the question is not why PvP balance affects also PvE but why is it that what improves PvP balance does not improve PvE balance? PvE is currently in a stage where 80% of the combat mechanics is pointless. CC is close to pointless in PvE except for ice bow, most defense mechanisms are not used…
It feels like most classes have gotten a strong buff to their healing and defensive support abilities with the new patch and I believe it is intended to shine in “challenging group content” of HoT. We know they hired a AI expert for HoT whose motto is “increasing PvE difficulty without increasing mobs damage and HP” and I am only hoping for it to happen!
They think it’s to confusing for people if their skill works slightly different or does a different bit of damage.
It’s shocking how utterly incompetent and moronic anet thinks players are. The nanny-developer.I disagree – my thief worked differently in pvp than in wvw so trying to figure out a build in pvp (for wvw) was useless, also the balance is based on pvp but there’s still wvw which is handeled as if it were pve.
Even if I know that pvp works differently than pve it’s very hard to adapt the muscle memory.
So yeah they might change it as this game does everything pve players want – but I seriously hope they don’t.
Balance changes are predominantly made for pvp, not pve. And changes made specifically for pve are more often reserved exclusively to pve than if it was for pvp, which does often impact other gamemodes.
WvW also has it’s own set of rules, altough the variations are slight. Example, pvp has Revealed at 4sec, but wvw and pve at 3. But Confusion does ~+130% of the damage it does in pvp or wvw.
So there are three seperate rulesets already but the differences are very minor, affecting but a handful of skills/effects at best.
Ok so there has to be a way around this issue. I was just thinking. How come pve skills get nerfed when they are having issues in pvp. I mean I understand the engineers grenade was not responding as intended. So yeah they needed fixed. though from what I can tell it is first pvp that brought about this detection. But before that engineer’s mortar kit to powerful in pvp so it gets balanced in pvp and feels like a nerf to pve. My question is if something in pve is work good but is to powerful in pvp why does pve get nerfed while pvp gets balanced? I’m just wondering on this I have seen other things in the past similar to this. I mean now like some others I feel mortar is way weaker then it should be in pve. I mean I can do 6000 dmg easily on my elementalist I have loads of fields but now I’m lucky to get over 1500 with my mortar on a crit. Where is the balance in that? And it is not a case of “learn to play” I may not be the best but I’m not the worst player ever. And I know how to equip and use my skills and traits. If you get over 1500 with a mortar let me know how you manage it… So yeah why is it pve gets nerfed for pvp? Why is it ok for one class to be able to do 6000points easily while the other class who should do similar with the chosen weapon does WAY less. I just want to understand the logic behind this. I just name this situation cause it is recent there are other pve nerfs that was brought about by pvp being unbalanced.
This is a trend in most mmo’s right now. Players get killed in pvp and starts yelling this and that is OP. Gamedesigners and developers nature is to nerf skills as soon as they have the slightest reason to.
“The squeaky wheel gets the grease.”
Normally mobs/missions are not balanced accordingly so pve-players will always suffer from the changes.