(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
PvP vs PvE
well, we asked for a split since launch but as you can see, Anet doesn’t listen until it’s already to late.
GW1 has a split for quite some time and for good reason, GW2 never got a real split even while it is needed from the get go.
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild?
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
I find Basilisk Venom to be the best elite for use even in PVE, stun bars goes away like bad dreams before ice-cream. Also short CD so I can actually use it multiple times, it even works a lot of times to stun something nasty and run away, or kill of the trash mobs etc.
GW1 splitted skills, and it turned into a titanic mess. ANet swore not to have to do that again. That’s also why they’ve been so hesitant about it, but they’ve started.
But I do agree on the principle, several classes still have a lot of skills that I don’t think is used anywhere (guardian’s spirit weapons is unfortunately a good example). And if you look at guardian’s used skills in most meta builds, the list is short.
Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
“The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”
“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
“The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”
You take basi for a stronger cc application for your group. As it allows people with minimal cc to also contribute via auto attacking.
5×150 > 432 simple maths no ?
Basi isn’t just a PvP skill. If you had however said Impact Strike i’d have no choice but to feasible agree as the area’s in PvE where you would have a desire to you this are few and far between.
PvE players see an emphasis on PvP, PvP players worry about too much PvE focus, Wvw players complain about both. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues, it just means that it’s hard to know what is a serious critique, what’s whinging, or whether it’s something in between.
Until we can offer specifics about which skills or traits are over- or under-powered for a game mode, it’s not all that helpful. The OP at least offers some details about a couple of potential Thief issues, but it doesn’t really make the general case that there’s an issue with PvP versus PvE balance.
So skip the rhetoric about why you think ANet missed the mark and simplify the criticism to the actual issue at hand. Keep in mind that there will always be some skills|traits|buffs|condi that are more useful in one mode than another. For example, Moa Signet is a great bar-breaking skill and a useful psych-out trick against less experienced players; it’s not all that useful against skilled players or in organized zerg-v-zerg. That doesn’t make it imbalanced or inappropriate; it just means that it works best for some situations, not others.
tl;dr focus on the actual critiques without worrying about why ANet might have missed the mark
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild?
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The thing you can’t take back.
Awkward silence from OP.
MMORPG’s are not easy, you’re just too PRO!!!
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild?
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The thing you can’t take back.
Awkward silence from OP.
No. Bar breaks are only a thing in some fights, and in those cases they replace the normal control effect, they do not supplement it, so this, IMO, is not a strong counter-argument. The thing is – you can increase the duration of control effects in PvE without interfering with how they impact bar breaks, and you’d have a skill that was generally useful and not one that was highly specialized to work only in specific contexts.
This argument doesn’t change anything.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
You take basi for a stronger cc application for your group. As it allows people with minimal cc to also contribute via auto attacking.
5×150 > 432 simple maths no ?
Basi isn’t just a PvP skill. If you had however said Impact Strike i’d have no choice but to feasible agree as the area’s in PvE where you would have a desire to you this are few and far between.
I did intend to mention Impact Strike in addition to Basilisk Venom, and it probably is a better example since, not being a venom, it can’t be shared to others. But this does not really change the crux of my argument – control effects should last longer in PvE even with the role control effects play in the defiance mechanic.
No. Bar breaks are only a thing in some fights, and in those cases they replace the normal control effect, they do not supplement it, so this, IMO, is not a strong counter-argument. The thing is – you can increase the duration of control effects in PvE without interfering with how they impact bar breaks, and you’d have a skill that was generally useful and not one that was highly specialized to work only in specific contexts.
This argument doesn’t change anything.
What’s wrong with having skills that work amazingly in specific context and less so in others? In your example, Basilisk Venom is inaccurately assessed because you only consider a single application from your player character. However, when shared with other players, it is an extremely potent skill to break Defiance Bars. And when the context requires something different, for example the Wyvern Patriarch in Verdant Brink, which has no breakable Defiance Bar, then you switch to another Elite skill. All in all, this gives players a meaningful choice to consider prior to approaching an encounter in PVE, which I would argue is a good thing.
Einlanzer.1627There is one area, though, that needs splitting and never gets split – and that’s the duration of certain effects like stun, petrify, and stealth. While they’re useful for defiance bars in PvE, the fact that they are mostly balanced around PvP makes them garbage for general use in PvE.
Crowd control skills and their interactions with Defiance Bars are generally balanced around groups, rather than individuals. Hence, it is extremely rare to have a skill that can single-handedly break a Champion or Legendary Defiance Bar. Further, since most non-Champion or higher encounters don’t last very long, the control duration on the existing skills as is are more than adequate. In other words, I disagree with your opinion that crowd control skills, in PVE, are not properly balanced.
Perhaps you could name another example scenario? Especially one that inspired this thread in the first place?
(edited by Ojimaru.8970)
No. Bar breaks are only a thing in some fights, and in those cases they replace the normal control effect, they do not supplement it, so this, IMO, is not a strong counter-argument. The thing is – you can increase the duration of control effects in PvE without interfering with how they impact bar breaks, and you’d have a skill that was generally useful and not one that was highly specialized to work only in specific contexts.
This argument doesn’t change anything.
What’s wrong with having skills that work amazingly in specific context and less so in others? In your example, Basilisk Venom is inaccurately assessed because you only consider a single application from your player character. However, when shared with other players, it is an extremely potent skill to break Defiance Bars. And when the context requires something different, for example the Wyvern Patriarch in Verdant Brink, which has no breakable Defiance Bar, then you switch to another Elite skill. All in all, this gives players a meaningful choice to consider prior to approaching an encounter in PVE, which I would argue is a good thing.
Einlanzer.1627There is one area, though, that needs splitting and never gets split – and that’s the duration of certain effects like stun, petrify, and stealth. While they’re useful for defiance bars in PvE, the fact that they are mostly balanced around PvP makes them garbage for general use in PvE.
Crowd control skills and their interactions with Defiance Bars are generally balanced around groups, rather than individuals. Hence, it is extremely rare to have a skill that can single-handedly break a Champion or Legendary Defiance Bar. Further, since most non-Champion or higher encounters don’t last very long, the control duration on the existing skills as is are more than adequate. In other words, I disagree with your opinion that crowd control skills, in PVE, are not properly balanced.
Perhaps you could name another example scenario? Especially one that inspired this thread in the first place?
I’m not arguing that Anet should make them more potent against defiance bars. I’m saying the base control effects should be more potent against mobs that are not defiance-enabled. A 1 second stun is pretty silly against a regular mob, especially for an elite skill.
A 1 second stun is pretty silly against a regular mob, especially for an elite skill.
That’s something I can agree with.
It’s one of those cliche rules of gaming that a game cannot be balanced for both PvE and PvP, as it stands GW2 is not the exception to this rule.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild?
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The thing you can’t take back.
Awkward silence from OP.
No. Bar breaks are only a thing in some fights, and in those cases they replace the normal control effect, they do not supplement it, so this, IMO, is not a strong counter-argument. The thing is – you can increase the duration of control effects in PvE without interfering with how they impact bar breaks, and you’d have a skill that was generally useful and not one that was highly specialized to work only in specific contexts.
This argument doesn’t change anything.
Actually it does.
The moment you acknowledged when a skill is rendered useless when in fact it is beneficial in situational moments. It really shows the lack of knowledge and understand the mechanics of any Profession.
The conversation ended the moment Ariurotl stated the obvious.
However, shooting from the waist down seems to be perfectly acceptable.
MMORPG’s are not easy, you’re just too PRO!!!
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild?
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The thing you can’t take back.
Awkward silence from OP.
No. Bar breaks are only a thing in some fights, and in those cases they replace the normal control effect, they do not supplement it, so this, IMO, is not a strong counter-argument. The thing is – you can increase the duration of control effects in PvE without interfering with how they impact bar breaks, and you’d have a skill that was generally useful and not one that was highly specialized to work only in specific contexts.
This argument doesn’t change anything.
Actually it does.
The moment you acknowledged when a skill is rendered useless when in fact it is beneficial in situational moments. It really shows the lack of knowledge and understand the mechanics of any Profession.
The conversation ended the moment Ariurotl stated the obvious.
However, shooting from the waist down seems to be perfectly acceptable.
This isn’t even coherent, and is an entirely inappropriate response to the post you quoted. Are you like 10 years old or something?
This is from my original post:
“There is one area, though, that needs splitting and never gets split – and that’s the duration of certain effects like stun, petrify, and stealth. While they’re useful for defiance bars in PvE, the fact that they are mostly balanced around PvP makes them garbage for general use in PvE. I don’t understand in the slightest why this isn’t addressed. "
So let me re-summarize. Defiance bars exist in PvE, but they are relatively few and far between. More importantly, there’s no reason a skill needs to suck unless you’re fighting something with a defiance bar. This argument is lame and not even slightly a justification for why control effects are so short in PvE.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild?
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The thing you can’t take back.
Awkward silence from OP.
No. Bar breaks are only a thing in some fights, and in those cases they replace the normal control effect, they do not supplement it, so this, IMO, is not a strong counter-argument. The thing is – you can increase the duration of control effects in PvE without interfering with how they impact bar breaks, and you’d have a skill that was generally useful and not one that was highly specialized to work only in specific contexts.
This argument doesn’t change anything.
Actually it does.
The moment you acknowledged when a skill is rendered useless when in fact it is beneficial in situational moments. It really shows the lack of knowledge and understand the mechanics of any Profession.
The conversation ended the moment Ariurotl stated the obvious.
However, shooting from the waist down seems to be perfectly acceptable.
This isn’t even coherent, and is an entirely inappropriate response to the post you quoted. Are you like 10 years old or something?
I really don’t know if I should see this as nostalgic childhood memory or be awkwardly offended.
MMORPG’s are not easy, you’re just too PRO!!!
This argument is lame and not even slightly a justification for why control effects are so short in PvE.
It’s a Contribution!
MMORPG’s are not easy, you’re just too PRO!!!
More importantly, there’s no reason a skill needs to suck unless you’re fighting something with a defiance bar.
Reasons for short duration.
- Vs. normal mobs: most of these mobs die so quickly that lengthier duration is not needed. In the case of a few of them, short duration CC serves to interrupt mob skills a players might not want used. The only thing lengthier CC would accomplish in these fights is to CC-lock the mob until it’s dead. Boards don’t hit back, and neither do mobs that die before they can use a skill. This makes for boring combats. Core already has too much of this kind of fight. The game does not need normal HoT and forward mobs to not be able to fight back.
- Vs. Veterans: Short duration CC serves primarily as an interrupt. Some veterans have mechanics that players might find dangerous, or more likely annoying. While lengthier CC might actually expire before their larger health bars get ablated, this is hardly a necessity of game design.
- Vs. Elites are generally encountered (outside dungeons) in events that have scaled up due to the number of players present. Longer CC duration could mean these mobs will spend the entire fight unable to act, if the multiple players present have at least some game awareness. Meanwhile, short-duration CC would still be useful to interrupt.
- Lengthy CC in other games’ PvE is used primarily to remove one opponent from a fight long enough to deal with another. There is little need for such in GW2 given the plethora of cleave and AoE available to characters.
That you either disdain these reasons or didn’t think of them does not mean there is no reason for CC duration to be as short as it is. It also does not mean the skills “suck” in any kind of sense other than that you don’t like the way it is.
More importantly, there’s no reason a skill needs to suck unless you’re fighting something with a defiance bar.
Reasons for short duration.
- Vs. normal mobs: most of these mobs die so quickly that lengthier duration is not needed. In the case of a few of them, short duration CC serves to interrupt mob skills a players might not want used. The only thing lengthier CC would accomplish in these fights is to CC-lock the mob until it’s dead. Boards don’t hit back, and neither do mobs that die before they can use a skill. This makes for boring combats. Core already has too much of this kind of fight. The game does not need normal HoT and forward mobs to not be able to fight back.
- Vs. Veterans: Short duration CC serves primarily as an interrupt. Some veterans have mechanics that players might find dangerous, or more likely annoying. While lengthier CC might actually expire before their larger health bars get ablated, this is hardly a necessity of game design.
- Vs. Elites are generally encountered (outside dungeons) in events that have scaled up due to the number of players present. Longer CC duration could mean these mobs will spend the entire fight unable to act, if the multiple players present have at least some game awareness. Meanwhile, short-duration CC would still be useful to interrupt.
- Lengthy CC in other games’ PvE is used primarily to remove one opponent from a fight long enough to deal with another. There is little need for such in GW2 given the plethora of cleave and AoE available to characters.
That you either disdain these reasons or didn’t think of them does not mean there is no reason for CC duration to be as short as it is. It also does not mean the skills “suck” in any kind of sense other than that you don’t like the way it is.
Someone give this cat a Medal!
MMORPG’s are not easy, you’re just too PRO!!!
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The OP probably used the worst possible example, since BV is a shared effect, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the vast majority of hard CCs, he is completely right with regard to their uselessness for other things than break bars.
Reasons for short duration.
[…]
Those reasons aren’t very convincing. The entire interrupt thing suffers from one big issue: cast times. While 1/2 second or more may be justified for a powerful CC in PvP, it makes the skills rather pointless if you want to interrupt a certain attack of your opponent. By the time you’ve finished your cast, many attacks will have already hit.
With regard to the stunlock you fear for tougher opponents, diminishing returns have been invented for a reason. Implement them properly and the veteran/elite will have more than enough time to fight back.
However, I doubt that the amount of re-balancing required to make CC worthwhile outside of break bar situations is worth it. Those capacities should be used more productively, e.g. to finally get closer to proper class balance in PvE.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
Wasnt the whole basis of gw1 to have situational skills? Asking for something to be equally good in all game modes is like asking for trouble.
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The OP probably used the worst possible example, since BV is a shared effect, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the vast majority of hard CCs, he is completely right with regard to their uselessness for other things than break bars.
Reasons for short duration.
[…]Those reasons aren’t very convincing. The entire interrupt thing suffers from one big issue: cast times. While 1/2 second or more may be justified for a powerful CC in PvP, it makes the skills rather pointless if you want to interrupt a certain attack of your opponent. By the time you’ve finished your cast, many attacks will have already hit.
With regard to the stunlock you fear for tougher opponents, diminishing returns have been invented for a reason. Implement them properly and the veteran/elite will have more than enough time to fight back.
However, I doubt that the amount of re-balancing required to make CC worthwhile outside of break bar situations is worth it. Those capacities should be used more productively, e.g. to finally get closer to proper class balance in PvE.
Cc outside of break bar is already worth it there are many mobs that can so much more easily be dealt with if simply cc or interupt them. Theres also some mobs in fractals that could 1 shot you if you dont cc them at right times.
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild? You wouldn’t.
I always use Basilisk Venom as my elite of choice in PVE.
I think you are missing that venom sharing is now base for thieves, meaning all your allies around you get the effect, leading to a much longer stun duration (and ultimate damage on breakbars)
If Basilisk Venom is so bad, can please devs take it from thief and give to ranger? I would love such good defiance-bar breaker as elite.
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild? You wouldn’t.
I always use Basilisk Venom as my elite of choice in PVE.
I think you are missing that venom sharing is now base for thieves, meaning all your allies around you get the effect, leading to a much longer stun duration (and ultimate damage on breakbars)
Same here, I have Basilisk Venom in my skill bar almost permanently. Only on rare occasions I switch to Dagger Storm. Einlanzer either doesn’t play thief (but why pick that example then?) or doesn’t know how to play thief well.
Thing is, I would still keep BV in my skill bar even if they removed the immediate stun effect. It’s a perfect solution fpr PvP and PvE. In PvP, you have that great 1.5 seconds stun that really makes a difference. In PvE, the real stun comes not from the direct stun effect of the skill, but from breaking the defiance bar. And that is not specific for BV but for all other stuns in PvE.
The defiance bar and stuns work perfectly together, without breaking PvP, in my opinion it’s well thought out. You are not supposed to keep a champ stunned for the whole fight, with 20+ players that would easily be possible the way Einlanzer imagines. Instead they allowed stuns, but only through the defiance bar. That way they can control how hard to fight the mob is. In addition to that, your stun (or other cc skill) is not wasted just because you triggered it at the same time as someone else, it damages the defiance bar instead. Only way to waste your skill is if the defiance bar is so easily broken that one thief can do it and another one casts his BV at the same time, which sometimes happens in Fractals. But a quick dodge cancels the cast, so it’s up to the player to let that happen or not.
I wished ArenaNet would force people to learn about the defiance bar at some point in the story line or to get access to HoT maps. Or at least a short quest that rewards learning it, just like the dodging stations in the starter zones, without forcing people to do it.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
I wished ArenaNet would force people to learn about the defiance bar at some point in the story line or to get access to HoT maps. Or at least a short quest that rewards learning it, just like the dodging stations in the starter zones, without forcing people to do it.
In the very first story episode of Heart of Thorns you need to go close to a downed Pact chopper. As you are moving away of the chopper and back to the pact camp you face a champion (with lower hp than regular champions) Mordrem Punisher, the one with the charged hammer attack. You fight him on very narrow path, and it’s your introduction to breakbars. Since he is champion he cannot die by random attacks so you have to “combat” the breakbar to defeat him.
There is a part of the story that teaches you the breakbar, but it is often ignored
In the very first story episode of Heart of Thorns you need to go close to a downed Pact chopper. As you are moving away of the chopper and back to the pact camp you face a champion (with lower hp than regular champions) Mordrem Punisher, the one with the charged hammer attack. You fight him on very narrow path, and it’s your introduction to breakbars. Since he is champion he cannot die by random attacks so you have to “combat” the breakbar to defeat him.
There is a part of the story that teaches you the breakbar, but it is often ignored
It’s definitely not enough. I started the HoT story line about two weeks after I started playing GW2, when I hit level 80. I wasn’t ready, I didn’t finish the main story, I just wanted to unlock gliding. I had no clue about stats, runes, sigils, I was like Snow. And yet, I did this part and never consciously used cc. I wasn’t even aware that defiance bars exist and how to break them until weeks later.
If they add a part where it’s taught, it must be in a way that cannot be ignored. If they had locked gliding behind a defiance bar, I would have learned it for sure.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
Breakbars are a thing in some fights. If every thief in Vinetooth Prime zergs slotted BV and knew when to use it, the world would be a better place.
The OP probably used the worst possible example, since BV is a shared effect, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the vast majority of hard CCs, he is completely right with regard to their uselessness for other things than break bars.
Reasons for short duration.
[…]Those reasons aren’t very convincing. The entire interrupt thing suffers from one big issue: cast times. While 1/2 second or more may be justified for a powerful CC in PvP, it makes the skills rather pointless if you want to interrupt a certain attack of your opponent. By the time you’ve finished your cast, many attacks will have already hit.
With regard to the stunlock you fear for tougher opponents, diminishing returns have been invented for a reason. Implement them properly and the veteran/elite will have more than enough time to fight back.
However, I doubt that the amount of re-balancing required to make CC worthwhile outside of break bar situations is worth it. Those capacities should be used more productively, e.g. to finally get closer to proper class balance in PvE.
I was going to make the same argument. Most of the effects I’m talking about are not instant-application like the control effects that are intended to operate as interrupts (like knockdowns), but even the ones that are are usually not that useful. We have several elite skills that have a 1-2 second daze effect which is laughable as an elite when you’re fighting regular mobs in PvE. The defiance mechanic is wholly separate from the base cc mechanics, and there’s no good argument against buffing the latter so they are more usable.
I honestly think a universal rule would work just fine here – like CC effects last twice as long in PvE as they do in PvP. I see no reason why this would cause any problems and would help make those skills less useless in general PvE, and I honestly think all the naysayers are just defending the status quo without thinking critically. A common problem in online forums.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Why in the world would you ever use Basilisk Venom as your elite skill in PvE instead of something like Dagger Storm or Thieves Guild? You wouldn’t.
I always use Basilisk Venom as my elite of choice in PVE.
I think you are missing that venom sharing is now base for thieves, meaning all your allies around you get the effect, leading to a much longer stun duration (and ultimate damage on breakbars)Same here, I have Basilisk Venom in my skill bar almost permanently. Only on rare occasions I switch to Dagger Storm. Einlanzer either doesn’t play thief (but why pick that example then?) or doesn’t know how to play thief well.
Thing is, I would still keep BV in my skill bar even if they removed the immediate stun effect. It’s a perfect solution fpr PvP and PvE. In PvP, you have that great 1.5 seconds stun that really makes a difference. In PvE, the real stun comes not from the direct stun effect of the skill, but from breaking the defiance bar. And that is not specific for BV but for all other stuns in PvE.
The defiance bar and stuns work perfectly together, without breaking PvP, in my opinion it’s well thought out. You are not supposed to keep a champ stunned for the whole fight, with 20+ players that would easily be possible the way Einlanzer imagines. Instead they allowed stuns, but only through the defiance bar. That way they can control how hard to fight the mob is. In addition to that, your stun (or other cc skill) is not wasted just because you triggered it at the same time as someone else, it damages the defiance bar instead. Only way to waste your skill is if the defiance bar is so easily broken that one thief can do it and another one casts his BV at the same time, which sometimes happens in Fractals. But a quick dodge cancels the cast, so it’s up to the player to let that happen or not.
I wished ArenaNet would force people to learn about the defiance bar at some point in the story line or to get access to HoT maps. Or at least a short quest that rewards learning it, just like the dodging stations in the starter zones, without forcing people to do it.
You did not even understand my original post. Try actually reading the OP next time before you comment on the thread.
In your very first sentence you say that skills are balanced for PvP but not PvE. I explained in detail why that is not the case, I even used bold in the sentence that’s most important. Tell me where I didn’t understand what you were writing, maybe explain it to me like I’m a 10 years old please.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
In your very first sentence you say that skills are balanced for PvP but not PvE. I explained in detail why that is not the case, I even used bold in the sentence that’s most important. Tell me where I didn’t understand what you were writing, maybe explain it to me like I’m a 10 years old please.
My suggestion has nothing whatsoever to do with the defiance mechanic.
In your very first sentence you say that skills are balanced for PvP but not PvE. I explained in detail why that is not the case, I even used bold in the sentence that’s most important. Tell me where I didn’t understand what you were writing, maybe explain it to me like I’m a 10 years old please.
My suggestion has nothing whatsoever to do with the defiance mechanic.
Your topic is stuns and their balance in PvP and PvE. The defiance bar is the mechanics that the game uses to stun most champs and to avoid stun-locks. How you can say that your suggestion has nothing to do with defiance bars is beyond me. Can you keep a straight face while writing this?
Or are you talking about Tyria trash mobs? If so, why would you even bother stunning a mob that goes down in 2 seconds? The mobs that take longer to kill either cannot be stunned at all or only through a defiance bar.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
Reasons for short duration {…]
Those reasons aren’t very convincing. The entire interrupt thing suffers from one big issue: cast times. While 1/2 second or more may be justified for a powerful CC in PvP, it makes the skills rather pointless if you want to interrupt a certain attack of your opponent. By the time you’ve finished your cast, many attacks will have already hit.
Odd, I seem to have no difficulty interrupting in GW2 PvE. I do it a lot.
With regard to the stunlock you fear for tougher opponents, diminishing returns have been invented for a reason. Implement them properly and the veteran/elite will have more than enough time to fight back.
True, however a proper implementation of DR for CC would add development time to the OP’s fix. How much? No clue, but this is ANet.
However, I doubt that the amount of re-balancing required to make CC worthwhile outside of break bar situations is worth it. Those capacities should be used more productively, e.g. to finally get closer to proper class balance in PvE.
I agree with that last. Other comments above in italics.
I think we discussed this already but the combat’s internal structure was done around PvP situations. We could say we were warned by the game’s name and history :P
This is why the PvE combat feels mostly unsatisfying with laughable skills and traits that have about 2 sec duration or 10% damage reduction that you need to dance around in order to survive against tougher mobs.
Yes, it is a shame that they balanced them separately but I guess someone could argue that they wanted the players to smoothly move from PvE to PvP and vice-versa without needing to learn again what each skill/trait does.
There seem to be a few threads going on in various forums about CC. I will just say that I think the design of CCs in general is deeply flawed. At their conceptual core, they are designed for PvE going all the way back to D&D. But video game designers have not made any well-reasoned efforts to adapt them into action combat, let alone PvP. From 1980s RPGs to GW2, I am still finding it the case that everything you really want to CC is immune to it, and everything that is vulnerable to CC just melts to regular attacks. So CC has no purpose in PvE, fair enough. But meanwhile their only real function in PvP is to cheese other players. Is that really a needed function? Why not just take them out of the game entirely? I’ve never seen players from another genre say “You know what would make this game better, is if players could just be stopped from doing anything.” If Anet’s going to redesign them for a skill split they might as well just redesign them period.
Further, I am not a fan of hidden mechanics and the breakbar system is effectively that. A CC skill has a very specific description of what it does, but it doesn’t do any of it when you’re fighting any kind of boss. If the breakbar system is going to remain as is, then it is long overdue for breakbar-related facts to be added to the description of every CC skill. Players should be able to tell at a glance not only which of their skills will do breakbar damage but also how effective they are at it. It is a glaring omission for something that has become vital to basic gameplay.
Further, I am not a fan of hidden mechanics and the breakbar system is effectively that. A CC skill has a very specific description of what it does, but it doesn’t do any of it when you’re fighting any kind of boss. If the breakbar system is going to remain as is, then it is long overdue for breakbar-related facts to be added to the description of every CC skill. Players should be able to tell at a glance not only which of their skills will do breakbar damage but also how effective they are at it. It is a glaring omission for something that has become vital to basic gameplay.
I fully agree to that. Never thought about it yet, but makes totally sense. The tool tips show how much damage a skill does and how long and other stuff, but nowhere its effect on a defiance bar.
I think that might even make some people curious enough to look up what a defiance bar is, and care about it.
Herleve – Ruins of Surmia
There needed to be a skill split for a long time and we finally got it recently. In PVP you really care about balance because you do not want to fight an overpowered profession. In PVE it is not important at all, except nobody wants to see a profession in PVE get a major nerf.