Guild Wars 2

Hey guys,

So lately there have been allot of posts about larger groups (aka raids) and especially about guild content. While i do not think GW2 is viable for a system like traditional raiding i do think that more group content, and especially guild content should be provided. But how do you tackle this without either making a guild mandatory , or taking challenge away from people who like it? This isn’t an easy excercise to make.

First let’s look at players that want to do group content. When discussing these matters, the community has created 2 stereotype groups . The casual and the hardcore.
Now i don’t like to use these terms, cause in fact there isn’t really a gap between these 2, it’s more like gradient. When we are looking at the problem with a vision of only those 2 groups, the hardcore wanting challenging content so they can be the very best (like noone ever was.) and the casual players who just want to have fun together and have a blast, this seems unable to overcome, you have to let one of those player groups down it seems, at least if you want everyone to experience your game content. [spoiler=When i was a hardcore raider…] i used to think you had to earn the right to see content, what a young and foolish kid i was back then, limiting game content you make to one small group of your audience is stupid, it doesn’t serve you as a company to create stuff for a small % of your players base[/spoiler]
Over the years i’ve been in about any demographic of mmo’s, from the hardcore heroic-difficulty-2-weekly-raids-guild to the guy that only has a few hours/week, and sometimes even none. And later again to a few hours most days.

Guildwars 2 does in my opinion tackle some problems excisting between these player bases in the exact right way. The downscaling system works, people can play with their friends of any lvl, the core of this mechanic really is amazing, and is good for all players. Another good thing scaling to the number of players around.
Now i will be the first to say that the system needs some tweeking especially when looking at rewarding outdoor pve content, scaling issues with for example death players on the ground. Notification of events also needs improvement. But the base of the system is a far better system then the model other mmo’s use to date. It doesn’t make you hate other players running in to your pve lvling and questing experience, wich is a huge improvement.

When we are looking at group content however, there is a problem with all current mmo’s. We are trying to find a middle ground that is challenging and yet not daunting to get into. I’ll tell you now, this isn’t possible. Challenge and daunting depend from player to player.

Now i believe we do have 2 main reasons to go into a group instance that i find important: challenge and fun with others. Rewards should be a way to reinforce these two aspects of group play. And this is where current mmo’s fail. Rewards are the only reason we do group content.

So don’t shoot me for this… Wait this is the internet, nvm, i’ll duck for cover after posting, fire away.

This is how i think group content could function in GW2 in the future. Take in mind, do not try to apply these systems to any of the current instances, fractals and the other dungeons are clearly made as 5-man dungeon.

So here goes, future group content should not be size bound. The reward for a group instance should always be the same, and when RNG based the same %, and be distributed over the ammount of players partaking in it. The bosses would not become more challenging with more players around, they would just recieve a slight health buff so they can’t be zerged down, larger groups however should still have the advantage of going a bit faster then small ones. Now take a while and let that sink in, i know it sounds very strange. But i think this will provide a solution to the hardcore, the casuals and everything in between. Even if you have never been in a dungeon before going in with a big group to clear it shouldn’t be to hard and shouldn’t be to focussed on you, while still providing the doing group content feel. For these kind of groups however we would need a tool for casual non-guild people to get into it, in my opinion this could be as simple as people walking in getting put into an instance with others walking in around the world, so basicly a hot join dungeon group system, wich you can enter alone or with a group. There are allot of people who don’t have the time or skill to acces the current lvl of group content, in fact there are more then you know. In this way, a player who has never played an mmo before can enjoy a good friendly instance with other people without going trough any trouble.

On the other hand, if chosen, you want groups to be able to play without people coming in, this being an actual private instance that only that group will enter. For example guilds can play these instances together, still casually if they have enough people themselves, or smaller groups can go for a real challenge. While being on the more hardcore half of the scale, the biggest problem was alway to find the exact amount of people, some day there were to many, other days there were to few. There is nothing more irritating then to either leave a good teammate/guildie out of an instance, or to take a pug or 1 person you don’t know in with a close team. If group content would be done this way, fewer players would just mean a more challenging day, and more players would mean a smoother run.

Now for a true hardcore player, doing group content 3 or 2 man and actually get rewarded for doing the near impossible, would mean so much. Now i know what you are thinking, players are gonna get cut for better rewards. To this i say, bringing another player should always be encouraged, but on the other hand, it shouldn’t be forced. Bringing another player should always give you slightly better reward/time spent. That is if you function as a group. Taking 1 pug would be a risk, while one good guildie would always benefit the group.

There is however one risk, making bosses to based on small groups, so big groups steamroll them. For designing future boss encounters, and i know i’m gonna be shouted at for this, i think bosses should have mechanics that resemble the karka roll ability. Something that can absolutely murder everyone, but where bigger numbers=bigger chance of survival. The karka event(besides the reinforcements, oh god what a drag), was one of the most fun times for my guild in GW2, why, because we saw people get massacred :p. It’s a joy to not die when 20 people around you get rolled over, and get them up, and it’s a joy for these people to actually get rezzed and learn from you. Bosses should be able to down people, but stay away from directly defeating them however, while not letting the get up on their own. For a 4 man group, 4 people going down should mean a wipe, while for a 20 man group, 15 people going down should be a mistake that can be overcome.

Let’s make one thing clear, this would be a kitten to balance properly, but the systems are in the game. I really believe if we want to see mmo’s being a tool for fun and challenge between players, we need to get away from forcing them into stuff they don’t like. If you don’t want to take a pug, then don’t, if you want to do this with your guild it should be allowed. If you want to 2 man it, go ahead an try. (and get destroyed)

Btw i do realise they won’t change anything for me, but all i can do is share ideas, i already love GW2, and i’m excited to see where the game goes in the next few years.

Feel free to post thoughts and comments,

Fox

P.s. srry for the wall of text.

Interesting post. Im one of the people advocating raids, however I would want it to impact the people who dont raid as much as possible. A few rules that would need to be followed for any kind of raiding in this game.

1) No gear grind.
2) No gated content so anything that is a raid must also be able to be experienced as a dungeon or dynamic event. For example a instanced Dynamic event to replace raids would also offer that content as an open world dynamic event.
3) No raid only gear. Anything found in a raid should also be found elsewhere in the game.
4) Dont make raiding the whole game focus. Continue to release other stuff alongside raids. Try to come up with an idea that reuses other content. For example 10 / 20 person versions of current dungeons.
5) Offer something challenging that requires teamwork.
6) Be instanced and schedulable.
7) Be for 5 + people.

Your idea does well in following these rules. The only issue I see with it is being able to balance this properly so it doesnt turn into another zerg like the world events. I would love to be able to take as many guildies as I have into one of these though. Not having to worry if people are gonna show up.

Your point describe very well what group content needs, however i do think current content will remain the way it is, it’s not to bad tbh, i hope future instances will improve. I don’t want a Wow like system cause that isn’t fitting in this game. Balance would be a kitten, true, and there will always be an optimal way pugs run it imo. But that’s not the focus, guilds and friends should be. The ability to run it the way you want, that would be awesome.

You’ve made a very well written and thoughtful post. I wonder if what you might be asking for is:
a) instanced dungeons
b) Areas of the world that have linear paths, like dungeons, and any number of people can enter “through the front”. Perhaps even with some sort of triggered gate system so it’s only available at certain times or after certain circumstances, and thus seems rarer. Everyone is scaled to the area, and bosses scale to what is coming down the road.

That way guilds and groups can do dungeons, while pugs, randoms, guilds, zergs, and anyone can join the slaughter and get loot.
There are already some mini dungeons in the open world as it is that can’t be completed alone, but I don’t know what the rewards are compared to dungeons, and I think they can all be accessed at any time.
Mebbe alongside story mode and explorable mode, dungeons could operate like this (i.e., be open world, triggered gate, have valuable bosses and events).

It’s important for the future imo that arenanet:

1) gives guilds a way to play with only guildmate with more then 5 people
2) doesn’t let go of the casual market and even tries to get more people in actually playing together.
3)doesn’t forget the hardcore and provides challenge when wanted.

I think i’ve kind of included all of that, altough i’m no genius, just sharing ideas.

any more thoughts on this?