Pve vs pvp

Pve vs pvp

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Posted by: Sylent.3165

Sylent.3165

Just curious. I’m this game a majority of the players are doing pve, yet all balancing is for pvp? I understand the leagues and the qq’s every single person makes because if someone kills them, the class is obviously to strong

I remember in gw1 they each were balanced seperate, why is that not the case in this game? By balancing for pvp only classes such as thief become not as useful in pve. I fear the same is coming for revenant and DH which will then make them kinda be useless in pve settings for things.

So my question is, why aren’t they balanced seperate? How hard could it really be to do?

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Posted by: Tiffany.8576

Tiffany.8576

Having separate functions for skills in PvE and PvP in GW1 was an absolute mess and undoubtedly a development nightmare, not to mention highly confusing at times. I have no doubt they’ll be wanting to avoid repeating the same mistake in GW2 having seen how it turned out in the original so they won’t go down that route.

Tiff | [TW] Tempest Wolves | WvW Staff Tempest Guide
NA/EU sPvP Elementalist

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Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

They aren’t balanced separately because ideally you don’t have to tweak numbers for two modes in the same game.


Using Guild Wars 1 for example, Spirits for ritualists. Everyone that plays Guild Wars 1 knows exactly what I am talking about. The problem is the Spirit mechanics is borderline broken, too powerful in PvP, too weak in PvE. You cannot have that sweet spot because spirits played by their own relentless rules.

So… You make the split!

WRONG EINSTEIN, you change the base design. If the gameplay cannot support armor ignoring turrets then DON’T add them! Simple as that.

Just look at conditions, sure, the mechanic isn’t perfect but it is infinitely better now. You can now go condi in PvE, something for 3 years the game PUNISHED you for doing.

(edited by Nova Stiker.8396)

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Posted by: WuLFy.2406

WuLFy.2406

Play condi mesmer in pve. Good luck.

Or PvP actually, because it’s useless there too.

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

“Having separate functions for skills in PvE and PvP in GW1 was an absolute mess and undoubtedly a development nightmare, not to mention highly confusing at times.”

Rocket science may be confusing for the general public but not for a rocket scientist. What you mentioned is simply game developers doing their jobs, which they presumably know how to do since they graduated from college with that major. It may be tough for an amateur hobbyist programmer, but not for someone who does these things for a living and keeps up on the latest developments in that field.

“he problem is the Spirit mechanics is borderline broken, too powerful in PvP, too weak in PvE. "

Sounds like rogue from World of Warcraft but more extreme.

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Posted by: Starfall.6425

Starfall.6425

Well… from my point of view “because it only matters in PvP anyway”

The normal PvE content is sooooo incredibly easy that it needs no balance anyway and the endcontent is balanced around what the classes are currently capable of. So what is wrong with balancing around PvP?

If we ignore HoT for now (and even there a-net already nerfed lots of PvE stuff), there was a well known streamer that did 1-80 permadeath without ANY gear and without dodging and heal for most of the time.

For PvE content that is harder people can switch gears, traits and use all those exploits that get discovered.

If the balance team increases the ICD of blinding ashes by 0.5s it makes a difference in PvP but in PvE? What kind of PvE changes do you have in mind? I would call the icebow nerf a PvE balance xD

[DP] – Diamond Pirates
[AM] – Abaddon’s Mouth

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Posted by: Jarrix.8234

Jarrix.8234

Well… from my point of view “because it only matters in PvP anyway”

This is correct.

There is a small section of the player base that likes to speed run dungeons and fractals but that’s not how the game mode is meant to be played. You’re suppose to grab 4 friends and just do group PvE with the builds and gear you have on. The same is true for WvW.

Kayku
Envy – Fort Aspenwood

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

You’re suppose to grab 4 friends and just do group PvE with the builds and gear you have on. The same is true for WvW.

Yeah sure lol

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Posted by: Starfall.6425

Starfall.6425

WvW balance was kittened up because of asc equip and all those buffs… it had nothing to do with the skill/trait-balance.

As long as WvW is a PvP-mode in a PvE-setting it will never have the balance PvP has. Thats a topic for a whole other discussion.. but OP wanted to talk about PvE vs. PvP.

PS: “WvW D/D thief solo roamer” – around this WvW won’t and shouldn’t be balanced either ^^

[DP] – Diamond Pirates
[AM] – Abaddon’s Mouth

(edited by Starfall.6425)

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

PS: “WvW D/D thief solo roamer” – around this WvW won’t and shouldn’t be balanced either ^^

Aww, now I’m sad!

But FYI: If pvp is balanced wvw is to some extend as well – but I guess you guys don’t know too much about wvw, right?

Edit: grammar

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Posted by: Starfall.6425

Starfall.6425

Well [DP] is a WvW-guild but don’t mind me ^^
But no, WvW will never be balanced the same way as PvP as long as players use PvE-gear and buffs. On the other hand WvW generally would need another balance because the playstile if different. It is more medium- and large-scale group fighting and so movement, commitment and positioning is more important than a skill having 5sec more CD or not.

[DP] – Diamond Pirates
[AM] – Abaddon’s Mouth

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Well [DP] is a WvW-guild but don’t mind me ^^
But no, WvW will never be balanced the same way as PvP as long as players use PvE-gear and buffs. On the other hand WvW generally would need another balance because the playstile if different. It is more medium- and large-scale group fighting and so movement, commitment and positioning is more important than a skill having 5sec more CD or not.

Do you really think I look up what your guild does?
You’ve read my signature, so you know I’m a solo roamer, thus I need pvp balance as that isn’t really balanced around groups as well. (We have no trinity, so the composition of the groups is always different).
I can imagine that it’s very hard/impossible to get a perfect balance for wvw, especially when it comes to zergs/blobs, but everything in wvw has been pretty much balanced once upon a time (minus conditions for the past ~2 years) – but you know that as you’re in a renown wvw guild.

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Posted by: Starfall.6425

Starfall.6425

I did not expect you to look it up. I just felt the need to mention it because “we have obviously no idea of wvw because we don’t share your solo roamer expectations” ^^

Of course in roaming there should be a balance in the 1on1’s of all compositions but it will be hard to reach because of reasons I mentioned before.

Did you play condi-trapper-thief? If yes… that would have never worked in the normal pvp-balance.

[DP] – Diamond Pirates
[AM] – Abaddon’s Mouth

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

I did not expect you to look it up. I just felt the need to mention it because “we have obviously no idea of wvw because we don’t share your solo roamer expectations” ^^

Of course in roaming there should be a balance in the 1on1’s of all compositions but it will be hard to reach because of reasons I mentioned before.

Did you play condi-trapper-thief? If yes… that would have never worked in the normal pvp-balance.

D/D power thief for 2 years.
With a week of P/D thief inbetween.
My D/D power thief worked quite well in pvp as well (with the exception that CnD was nerfed in pvp but not wvw), before June. But I’m a wvw player, so I’m in to kill and not to jump around.

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

Skill splits are unnecessary because you have absolute control over PvE encounters.

Splitting the function of skills makes it far more difficult for players to transition between modes, and it makes their characters and build feel very inconsistant.

Balancing around PvP makes sense, because you can balance encounters and mobs around player skills without screwing up your competitive game, or needing to track what amounts to twice as many skills.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

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Posted by: fireflyry.7023

fireflyry.7023

Splitting the function of skills makes it far more difficult for players to transition between modes, and it makes their characters and build feel very inconsistant.

Agreed.

GW1 seemed to design itself around having these two game types segregated to the extent they were almost entirely different games.

In saying I can see where the OP is coming from in regards to the concern of certain classes becoming less desirable or even totally neglected/ignored in certain PvE content due to balance and mechanics being based on PvP foundations, especially with raids around the corner.

PvE only skills, not splits, aka EotN could be a way to alleviate such problems but I guess that would also create it’s own issues in regards to transitioning from one format to another.

This seems to be an issue for most MMORPG’s though hence why I advise most new players to any game in the genre to roll Warrior. It’s the safest bet in terms of relevance and inclusion to both formats.

If your having adventurer problems I feel bad for you son, I dodged 99 arrows till my knee took one.

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

In saying I can see where the OP is coming from in regards to the concern of certain classes becoming less desirable or even totally neglected/ignored in certain PvE content due to balance and mechanics being based on PvP foundations, especially with raids around the corner.

Apart from that we don’t really have balance right now, and that since June: In an ideal case, and especially since this isn’t a “trinity” game, balance would mean that all classes are equally strong. And with that you won’t have any class that is unwanted. What you’re referring to is likely “Necros are bad in dungeons” which was born because random people thought they were speedrunners. Real speedrunners formed their groups around the content, so certain skills/clas ses were needed in different situations. And necro didn’t really fit in that. Still I have done all dungeons on my necro and never had trouble, neither with the content or my parties (pugs).