Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

The mods shut the last one down because it became an infinite loop of the same binary discussion where both sides simply restated their OPINION at the other. All we can do, and could ever do, is supply theories as to why there was a drop in income in 2015 before HoT to income in 2016 after HoT.

It’s all reading tea leaves, entrails and runes to determine reasons since ALL we have as fact is the INCOME numbers from the quarterly statements.

While that was happening, it’s not complely true. New information did come in that thread overtime. Like the https://gw2efficiency.com/
analysis of maddoctor and the more detailed reports that another person found, and somebody was just to do a more detailed analysis before that thread was close. So while some discussions where going in a loop, there was also overall progression.

Anyway, lets not go back to that thread. I linked it here simply because it showed the data from pre Q4 2016. But this thread is not supposed to be an extension of that thread so please lets just talk about Q4 2016 again. Why people think they are what they are and what has to be done to get them higher.. if anything needs to be done. Maybe people think it’s fine like this.

That is what this thread is about.

That analysis has at least two problems. First it requires self reporting. Players sign up to use that site, it doesn’t represent a balanced sampling of the player base.

Second just because players have item A and not B doesn’t mean they stopped playing altogether. It just means they haven’t bothered playing on those maps that drop B. They may have left, they may now be busy with real life so they don’t play as frequently as they once had or they rather play in core Tyria because VB put them off HoT when it first dropped.

The point was that new information was added, it was not only going into circles or a ‘done thread’. Seeing how multiple people sort of use this thread as a continuations of that (what try not to do!) shows that.

That not all new information was complete of perfect is true. It never is. But threads like that one and this one do use information that is more that just discussions about what somebody likes. That is also why I personally find these threads interesting.

For the rest, what maddoctor said.

The other thread was trying to see where we came from and where did go. This thread is more where we are now (with the results of Q4 2016) what people think are the reasons for it, what should change and how to get people back. I am truly interested in seeing other peoples vision on that.

Beldin.5498:

Devata.6589:

Afther the thread looking at GW2 results over a longer period ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Having-a-look-at-GW2-long-term-results/first that is now closed so save to link), I did want to have a look at the results for Q4 2016 and Q1 of 2017.

In that thread some people though it was too much of an ‘I told you so’ statement, well sadly this time I have to say ‘I was wrong’.

The results of Q4 did just get released, you can find them here: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/prfile.aspx?ID=9DE70054-C1F4-43C2-842B-8A228757B8D6
I expected Q4 to go up with it being Q4, shorter days, more vacation, Halloween, Wintersday and a lot of the season 3 release. Sadly I was wrong, Q4 2016 had even lower results the the two before.

At least the ‘It’s because the lack of content’ argument as reason for lower results can now be completely shredded.

It’s really sad because the core of the game is really good.

Other than the ‘problem’ that the game has, there is an addition problem now, its how do you get the people back.

For example, the upcoming patch is really something we should have had much sooner, simply because of the location of the map, that is something that interests people. But those that left will not be likely to come back to see it at this point.

I always did think that HoT and the first half year after it was basically when Anet had to solve the problem because even if they fixed it now, people are just not here / coming back to see it. The only way I could see many people coming back if is the next expansion would be marketed as GW3 but that would be really bad if the next expansion is nothing like a GW3.

Edit: Clarification about the ‘lack of content, shredder’ comment in my first post\/.

I guess the main reason why i will mostly never come back is that it seems in all
new content i have to use those gliding stuff and that means i first am forced to
grind in HoT .. and i simply don’t want to go there.

Oh .. and still no new armor sets .. just boring outfits.

Funny, I did run into a similar problem. Completing VB did not gave you all abilities you needed to complete the next map, so you could not 100% complete that, even after having completed it as far as you could. So you did go to the next map where you had the same problem and after having completed that as far as possible you still had not what you needed to complete the previous map. So in order to do that you basically had to start grinding to get all the required masteries. Now if I dislike something, it’s grinding, especially a currency (what xp is). So I did go back the the old maps and never unlocked more masteries.

It’s a similar problem as when you complete a map for level x, but after completing it you are not yet the required level for the next map. That is bad design imho. While it was likely deliberate as they wanted you to hang around in those maps, usually not a problem, but with all these group events it is a problem for people who prefer solo-play.

Lordareon.6851:

I’d like to some examples of MMOs that can generate content so quickly that it can keep you hooked to it forever, without Grind ou TimeGates….
There isn’t! Wow has been surviving of returning players to expansions for years!

I know we should always demand more and better, and that’s right, but there are things that are almost impossible to keep popping out constantly, mainly in a game as big as GW2.

Well, there is a grind and there is grind. When you grind some currency to buy what you need, that is really boring. When you are specifically farming for 1 item and need to farm other content for other items it is imho already not as bad.

Also traditional quests can keep you busy a long time combine that with many festivals. A combination of that can keep people busy.

But more important, if expansions are keeping the game alive that is fine. It;s basically the system I would love to see, an MMO that works based on expansion-releases like GW1 did.

Again, you’re not really answering his question … even if the content was your preferred kind of grind, it would be unlikely that an MMO would generate content so quickly that it would keep you hooked. The hook isn’t that you get mats, the hook is that it’s fun to play. Even you can’t convince anyone that getting your 100th of a specific mat drop is what engages you as a player. We’ve all been there and done that … it’s no different than getting gold at some point.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Devata.6589:

Slowpokeking.8720:

I think the problem was the direction, hardcore and raid should never be the focus of this game.

But is it the focus of this game? I don’t think it is. Yes there where more raid patches in the first period after HoT then other type of patches, but that might simply be because it’s from another team who might be able to release it faster.

The HoT maps are harder for solo-players but that has imho more to do with the fact that they wanted to make group-content then because they wanted to make it more hardcore.

I can not say the game as total now suddenly has a focus on HC content. You do think that is the case? And what do you base that on?

Yes, the new content is mostly about raids, they even have elusive stories, backpacks and minis.

Exclusive rewards for content is a good thing imho. Problem is not that raids have it, problem might be that other content does not have it so much.

I did not hear many raiders complain about the raid-content. I do hear many non-raiders complain about raids getting to much attention, and complaining about the content they get. Maybe Anet should handle the rest of the game as they handle raids?

Nonetheless, I do not think all attention go’s to raids. But the raid-team might be able to push out more content then other teams. (Or not more, but content that lasts longer)

I feel that ArenaNet, although many people argue they were unable to deliver on what they promised, have delivered what they promised with HoT. People keep comparing LS3 to HoT, as if they are separate stories, but this is part of the expansion. Purchasing HoT purchases the continued living story updates, whereas someone who has not purchased the expansion will not have access to the new raids OR to LS3. What does this mean? Everything we are playing now, is still part of the HoT expansion, simply due to the fact that people who do not own the expansion are not able to play LS3.

For example, if I played the free game today, and decided to purchase Heart of Thorns, I would find it a remarkable amount of content! Many new legendaries, 8 new maps, several different raids, and so many masteries. It seems that they have at this point, the expansion is definitely worth the money, especially because of what it promises.

Comparing this game to other games strikes me as unfair, simply because ArenaNet’s design philosophies are so different from the philosophies of other games that currently exist. Lack of a gear treadmill, consistent story releases every three months that comes with a host of content and game updates, and consistently new raids and legendaries being added; this has always been the design philosophy of ArenaNet in Guild Wars 2, and I have no idea what other games have successfully followed a similar philosophy. Every other game I can think of follows a much more money-gated expansion mentality that releases huge amounts of content and then slowly dies down in activity, with spare patches in between to keep some semblance of relevance in the market.

Despite what quarterly reports say, I refuse to believe that ArenaNet is sitting on or has exceeded a Point of No Return, and I think they will find it in themselves to do well again, even if it takes another expansion.

Obtena.7952:

Again, you’re not really answering his question … even if the content was your preferred kind of grind, it would be unlikely that an MMO would generate content so quickly that it would keep you hooked. The hook isn’t that you get mats, the hook is that it’s fun to play. Even you can’t convince anyone that getting your 100th of a specific mat drop is what engages you as a player. We’ve all been there and done that … it’s no different than getting gold at some point.

I think I was answering the question. The question was not about how no MMO was able to keep a game fun for a long time. There are many successful MMO’s that are very old. So their players find it ‘fun’ for all this time.

But your correct, the content itself should be fun. On the other hand, I do think the reward should also be fun. In an MMO the two compliment each other imho. You need both.

Klowde.9876:

Despite what quarterly reports say, I refuse to believe that ArenaNet is sitting on or has exceeded a Point of No Return, and I think they will find it in themselves to do well again, even if it takes another expansion.

I think if it’s a really good expansion pack, I have no doubt GW2 could do really really well. My major fear is if it’s a bad release, GW2 goes into a death spiral. The big problem everyone forgets about MMO’s is once it starts dying, it usually dies very quickly because nobody wants to play a “dead” game. However, if it is a good release that might generate some hype and bring back old players or bring in new players.

Could it be possible that ANet internally considered Season 3 of the Living World to always be part of HoT? That they assumed we would realize this without it needing to be said outright with the HoT marketing material? That this is how they could rationalize kitten price tag on content that didn’t meet the bar other MMOs set as expansions?

Just tossing that out there.

The Devs sort of said it pre-HoT launch, when they stated that access to Living World Season 3 was contingent on owning Heart of Thorns, no? I mean, it was right there in black and white. Kind of makes Season 3 part of Heart of Thorns; at least, until the next expansion bundles Core, HoT, and expansion ‘2’.

Behellagh.1468:

Could it be possible that ANet internally considered Season 3 of the Living World to always be part of HoT? That they assumed we would realize this without it needing to be said outright with the HoT marketing material? That this is how they could rationalize kitten price tag on content that didn’t meet the bar other MMOs set as expansions?

Just tossing that out there.

Seems reasonable to me that they priced HoT according to an idea that it was both an expansion and a season pass.

That said, I would consider the HoT content, in quantity, to be worth (to me) the price point. A hundred dollars or so for the quantity included in the package is well within acceptibilitiy for me.

Unfortunately the nature of the content counters the quantity for me.

Devata.6589:

Exclusive rewards for content is a good thing imho. Problem is not that raids have it, problem might be that other content does not have it so much.

I did not hear many raiders complain about the raid-content. I do hear many non-raiders complain about raids getting to much attention, and complaining about the content they get. Maybe Anet should handle the rest of the game as they handle raids?

Nonetheless, I do not think all attention go’s to raids. But the raid-team might be able to push out more content then other teams. (Or not more, but content that lasts longer)

No it’s not.

GW2 is mostly a casual focused game, it should not have such thing at all. It’s dumb to spend their limited source to raid content.

@ Klowde…

An expansion has to deliver ON THE POINT, not first like 20% on release day and them slowly as snails the other 80% in tiny steps month after month later …

Thats not how expansions work. An expansion should deliver always its complete content onm release day on the point and that is it, what HoT dod absolutely not and why so many people are angry of this fact, that HoT did not deliver all of its announced content directly.

People don’t want to be spoon fed a hundred times with a small spoon, when they KNOW, they should get fed with just 1 big spoon instead and are satiated after that one then for a long time.
Or have you ever seen in similar big MMORPGs on the market the same behavious like ANet did with HoT ???

No, I can’t remember a single expansion in WoW or in FF14 for example, where their developers tried to do with their players the same idiotic method of delivering like only 20% of the content of its expansion and then adding very slowlsy the last 80% months later disguised as some kind of other patches.

They always delivered with their expansions completely, without leaving anything out, whatever got announced, was then also part of the expansion from begin on the expansion released – so they delivered in the eyes of the playerbase, what doesn’t change the fact that still for some people the content what they brought could jhave been disappointing, but they delivered and that completely.

HoT didn’t deliver complete, what made the bug infested thing even more so disappointing, because having access to LS3 was no sales point that got marketed as “Feature” of HoT…. that LS3 is just a story extension of HoT is nothing but just a cheap excuse nobody paid for.
That people can have access to LS3 only due to owning HoT is just a story telling technical given thing, because LS3 plays after what happens in HoT.
Would LS3 play now, before the happenings of HoT, then wouldn’t have people to own naturally HoT to have access to LS3 – just plain logic!!

Thats why I say it would have been alot better for HoTnot to add new Story with the expansion, but instead Anet should have focused with the expansion only on adding new Features, QoL and improving the existing Features, and bigger properly done Game Balance that take finally also a look onto all of the games Combat System mechanics to prepare the game properly on the new added Elite Specializations and those that will come in the future, cause the game was before HoT already in a state of total balance chaos due to the Condition Changes and ANet had nothing better to do, than to rush it with Hot, due to basically NCSOFt pointing their pressure pistol into their backs – saying, release it fast, we needz the MONEY, cause your gemstore is simply too weak!!!
Thats the truth, because would the gemstore work good enough, then we wouldn’t need basically any expansions at all.

For the game would it be better, if completely all new story content, would be added to the game only via Living World Patches, so that Anet can focus themself with Expansions completely on new Features, Qol, Balance and improvements of existign content – thats it for what freaking expansions ARE FOR mainly in the first place. adding new story is just secondary as you can always add new story, but the game has to run functionally wise first good, that has always top priority over adding new story!!!

Quality over Quantity.

Klowde.9876:

I feel that ArenaNet, although many people argue they were unable to deliver on what they promised, have delivered what they promised with HoT. People keep comparing LS3 to HoT, as if they are separate stories, but this is part of the expansion. Purchasing HoT purchases the continued living story updates, whereas someone who has not purchased the expansion will not have access to the new raids OR to LS3. What does this mean? Everything we are playing now, is still part of the HoT expansion, simply due to the fact that people who do not own the expansion are not able to play LS3.

For example, if I played the free game today, and decided to purchase Heart of Thorns, I would find it a remarkable amount of content! Many new legendaries, 8 new maps, several different raids, and so many masteries. It seems that they have at this point, the expansion is definitely worth the money, especially because of what it promises.

Comparing this game to other games strikes me as unfair, simply because ArenaNet’s design philosophies are so different from the philosophies of other games that currently exist. Lack of a gear treadmill, consistent story releases every three months that comes with a host of content and game updates, and consistently new raids and legendaries being added; this has always been the design philosophy of ArenaNet in Guild Wars 2, and I have no idea what other games have successfully followed a similar philosophy. Every other game I can think of follows a much more money-gated expansion mentality that releases huge amounts of content and then slowly dies down in activity, with spare patches in between to keep some semblance of relevance in the market.

Despite what quarterly reports say, I refuse to believe that ArenaNet is sitting on or has exceeded a Point of No Return, and I think they will find it in themselves to do well again, even if it takes another expansion.

However, that they used a different design philosophy is not an excuse if people don’t like it. Maybe that different design philosophy was then the problem instead of an excuse?

It is also not true that this approach has always been there. LS was something they came with after release of the game. Not that that really matters.

Also if you consider LS3 as part of HoT (what I think is a good idea, in an expansion based model as I would like to see it, you also have at least one bigger content-patch just between the two expansions) you cannot charge money for that LS. But they do. Ofcourse the expansion should be the bulk of the content.

Personally I am afraid they have passed a Point of No Return. Results were dropping before HoT and I really did see HoT and the first half year after it as their (last) opportunity to turn things around.

That is also why I became a lot less active on the forums after HoT, in my mind any suggestions made at that point (considering development-time) would be to late anyway.

Now I do see one out, and that would be GW3, but even that is questionable.

Obviously I do not think the game will literally die / servers closing. But it simply reaches a lower state and is not running at the state it had the ability to operate on.

But that is also why I find it interesting to see what other people think about that from where we are now.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Devata.6589:

Exclusive rewards for content is a good thing imho. Problem is not that raids have it, problem might be that other content does not have it so much.

I did not hear many raiders complain about the raid-content. I do hear many non-raiders complain about raids getting to much attention, and complaining about the content they get. Maybe Anet should handle the rest of the game as they handle raids?

Nonetheless, I do not think all attention go’s to raids. But the raid-team might be able to push out more content then other teams. (Or not more, but content that lasts longer)

No it’s not.

GW2 is mostly a casual focused game, it should not have such thing at all. It’s dumb to spend their limited source to raid content.

Also for casual gamers that is a good thing. If you like to hunt down mini’s (something a casual gamer might like), its still better do have to complete different type of content for that, then simply grind your brains out for currency to buy it.

Orpheal.8263:

@ Klowde…

An expansion has to deliver ON THE POINT, not first like 20% on release day and them slowly as snails the other 80% in tiny steps month after month later …

Thats not how expansions work. An expansion should deliver always its complete content onm release day on the point and that is it, what HoT dod absolutely not and why so many people are angry of this fact, that HoT did not deliver all of its announced content directly.

People don’t want to be spoon fed a hundred times with a small spoon, when they KNOW, they should get fed with just 1 big spoon instead and are satiated after that one then for a long time.
Or have you ever seen in similar big MMORPGs on the market the same behavious like ANet did with HoT ???

No, I can’t remember a single expansion in WoW or in FF14 for example, where their developers tried to do with their players the same idiotic method of delivering like only 20% of the content of its expansion and then adding very slowlsy the last 80% months later disguised as some kind of other patches.

They always delivered with their expansions completely, without leaving anything out, whatever got announced, was then also part of the expansion from begin on the expansion released – so they delivered in the eyes of the playerbase, what doesn’t change the fact that still for some people the content what they brought could jhave been disappointing, but they delivered and that completely.

So content patches in those game are not a continuation of the things introduced in the expansion? Like new skins or levels for the artifact weapons in Legion. Yes that should have been there from the start. Including all planned raids.
WoW cut advertised features since WotLK completly every expansion. Yes features that were announced and advertised and never appeared at all.

HoT didn’t deliver complete, what made the bug infested thing even more so disappointing, because having access to LS3 was no sales point that got marketed as “Feature” of HoT…. that LS3 is just a story extension of HoT is nothing but just a cheap excuse nobody paid for.
That people can have access to LS3 only due to owning HoT is just a story telling technical given thing, because LS3 plays after what happens in HoT.
Would LS3 play now, before the happenings of HoT, then wouldn’t have people to own naturally HoT to have access to LS3 – just plain logic!!

But the story continues, there are no flashbacks. Having the newest expansion to recieve the newest content is just normal. All MMORPGs do this.
New fractals can be entered even as a F2P player.

Thats why I say it would have been alot better for HoTnot to add new Story with the expansion, but instead Anet should have focused with the expansion only on adding new Features, QoL and improving the existing Features, and bigger properly done Game Balance that take finally also a look onto all of the games Combat System mechanics to prepare the game properly on the new added Elite Specializations and those that will come in the future, cause the game was before HoT already in a state of total balance chaos due to the Condition Changes and ANet had nothing better to do, than to rush it with Hot, due to basically NCSOFt pointing their pressure pistol into their backs – saying, release it fast, we needz the MONEY, cause your gemstore is simply too weak!!!
Thats the truth, because would the gemstore work good enough, then we wouldn’t need basically any expansions at all.

Nobody would have bought this so called expansion.
Expansion were a community wish, ArenaNet didn’t plan to do them. But there was a huge demand so they responded properly.

For the game would it be better, if completely all new story content, would be added to the game only via Living World Patches, so that Anet can focus themself with Expansions completely on new Features, Qol, Balance and improvements of existign content – thats it for what freaking expansions ARE FOR mainly in the first place. adding new story is just secondary as you can always add new story, but the game has to run functionally wise first good, that has always top priority over adding new story!!!

Quality over Quantity.

This was the plan. The community didn’t like it.
Expansions, as the name suggests, are there to expand existing content. Not to rebuild it.

Well, here is the thing, Arenanet appears to have changed their business model to an expansion focused one.
Problem is they have not marketed themselves this way at all.

They believe in a say little policy, do a lot. The problem with that is, if your focus is on expansions, people need to know that and be getting hints constantly. Essentially you need to promote big content releases.

GW1 had an expansion model, but it was marketed as such. They always said they plan to release big campains, and generally they were satisfying.

As some one who doesnt play much anymore, and only looks for major news, or reasons to come back, my general feeling here is that nothing major is going on in gw2, and nothing major is on the horizon. This may be false, but its what i get with cursory looks periodically.

It goes like this,
hey, whats going on in gw2 these days?
looks at website, oh they are still promoting hot. Hmm apparently they did a few LS releases.
(I will tell you LS releases do nothing for me, my memory of LS releases has generally been that they release a small bit of content too slowly, and not really worth coming back for, once you have left)

then i look at the forums to see any tidbits on whats coming ahead or the things they added. There is usually few posts on new content of import, some remixes and reworks of old stuff, slightly interesting, but not enough to overcome the inertia of jumping back in.

This type of marketing cant work if you want people to get down with an expansion, people have to aware that something new, big and exciting is coming. they have to plan for it, and anticipate it. Right now, whether its true or not, from a casual observer, nothing is on the horizon, and the game hasnt evolved much since i stopped 8 months ago.

@Miellyn

I have to disagree on your last sentence. You can expand a game also through rebuilding it.
Rebuilding an existing mechanic in a game doesn’t mean, that you can’t add also something new to it while being on the process of rebuilding something.

Hmm, am personally not so firm yet with WoW, but the impression you get from the game so far is, that it continiously gets its expansions and personalyl I haven’t heard from WoW players yet, that they had to wait on something sevaral couple of months after an expansion, until something that should have been part of a previous expansion got added to the game.

Same with FF14..haven#t heard yet from that game a single time, that somethign from their expansions got cut out and delayed, just to be added then slowly in tiny steps later, like Anet does it with us currently with the second set of Legendary Weapons, or how they did it with Raids.

For me it is just clear, in a complete HoT, that would have fully delievered on day 1, would have been the complete set of legendary weapons, the legendary armors and the first 3 Raid “Wings” as 1 complete raid part right on release day. But all of this wasn#t the case, we had to wait multiple months to now 16 months after release and we are still far away from having everything in the game, that should have been part of HoT directly basically.

This makes you question yourself – what in hell has happened at ANet, that made them seemingly lose so much time/ressources, that they weren’t able to pull a complete HoT off at release date, if not just a rushed date being pressured by NCSOFT?

Because I’m pressure sure, if there wouldnt have been pressure on releasing HoT fast, we would have seen a much later Release Date with an expansion that would have delivered then also from begin on a complete second set of legendary weapons, with legendary armors being completely part of it as Feature fully accessible and with the first 3 raid wings being included in HoT, so that there wouldnt have been the need to implement these through later patches, what would have lead then to the advantage that Anet would have had more time and resosurces for other meaningful changes and improvements to the game – especially the game balance, which suffers massively in this game since june 23rd of 2015 – 4 months just before HoT got release they made these devastating condition changes, which are unchanged, unbalanced until today – 1 year and 4 months later…

And as this whole thread shows – ANet has a massive problem with retaining players and the biggest reason for this, why many people leave MMOS like GW2 is the lack of Game Balance in the first place, not the lack of content.

Content is the Motor of a running MMORPG.
But Game Balance is the oil of the motor, that ensures, that the Motor will run also still good in many years later to come.
If the oil of the motor sucks, then the motor will inevitably stop running somewhen due to the damage the motor damages from working with bad oil, which is players leaving the game and not coming back, until ANet changes the oil out.

I hope this little metaphor is easy to understand
and thats exactly the case with ANet right now.. we have a perfect motor, yay, but a perfect motor, thats still running with horrible 5 year old thick and unflexible oil of very bad quality which is slowing the motor and its mechanics down – its ovedue to change it out with some fresh fluid oil, so that motor and its oil are in harmony again.

phys.7689:

Well, here is the thing, Arenanet appears to have changed their business model to an expansion focused one.
Problem is they have not marketed themselves this way at all.

They believe in a say little policy, do a lot. The problem with that is, if your focus is on expansions, people need to know that and be getting hints constantly. Essentially you need to promote big content releases.

No, it does not look like they are going for that model, while they should have done that from the beginning imho.

If you simply look at the cash-shop, for example at the gliders, by far most are limited time available cash-shop items. In a true expansion-based model the cash-shop would play almost no role.

LS3 is something they try to sell, just as many skins that keep being added there.

Also if they would truly focus on expansions they would need to push one out every year to year and a half. We are now 1 year and 4 months after HoT and have no news yet about the release of the next expansion.

So they are clearly still depending on the cash-shop as main source of income, while it seems that is getting harder overtime. That was to be expected.

It seems more that they noticed that they cash-shop only approach did not work anymore, so they added expansion as an additional source of income and a way to attract players who then spend money in the cash-shop.

But I agree with you that if they should go for an expansion-based model, they should market that also . That creates some acceptance for some decisions, like a higher price for the expansion and less content between the expansions.

Klowde.9876:

For example, if I played the free game today, and decided to purchase Heart of Thorns, I would find it a remarkable amount of content! Many new legendaries, 8 new maps, several different raids, and so many masteries. It seems that they have at this point, the expansion is definitely worth the money, especially because of what it promises.

That’s great…. for new players, but what about the ones that bought the expansion on day one and were only delivered a portion of the promised content from the expansion, a year and half later still haven’t even received the full content promised. What about those players who are not even playing these days, looking like they got ripped off paying for a full expansion but didn’t get everything they paid for.

They sold this expansion like every other company is trying to do in ripping players off with “season pass” in other games. We’re vaguely gonna give you this and that over the next year, thanks for paying for it up front, also we’re going to work on the next expansion while you wait for whatever we promised.

Miellyn.6847:

So content patches in those game are not a continuation of the things introduced in the expansion? Like new skins or levels for the artifact weapons in Legion. Yes that should have been there from the start. Including all planned raids.

Except WoW gave out 36 artifacts, each having 5 sets of skins, with each of those having 4 different colors, from day one. The hidden set #2 is a bonus set. They usually start off with a starter raid, then add raids to continue progress every content patch, current expansion is already up to 3 raids.

GW2 is on new legendary weapons number which one again? Where’s the legendary armor again?

2016 – NCsoft boasts a record year on PC and mobile

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/52118/ncsoft-revendique-annee-record-pc-mobiles#reactions

French website use a translator

The income graphics are at:
http://jolstatic.fr/www/captures/82/2/122232.jpg

GW2:

• 2014: 86 billion korean won
• 2015: 101 b krw
• 2016: 77 b krw

(2013 was not included)

as asureus.6287:

2016 – NCsoft boasts a record year on PC and mobile

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/52118/ncsoft-revendique-annee-record-pc-mobiles#reactions

French website use a translator

Not sure if you are aware but NCsoft makes more than GW2…

TorsoReaper.8530:

as asureus.6287:

2016 – NCsoft boasts a record year on PC and mobile

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/52118/ncsoft-revendique-annee-record-pc-mobiles#reactions

French website use a translator

Not sure if you are aware but NCsoft makes more than GW2…

I think there knocking on GW2 just look at those numbers represented on the charts. They are all going steadily upwards and increasing with the exception of Aion and Gw2. Gw2 is worse of because those numbers represent the hatred shown to HoT because we see Gw2 at 86 prior to HoT, 101 for people giving it a try, and then it falls lower than it even started out as new and old players found that HoT left a bad taste in there mouth with the lowest of the three at 77.

If they wanted to post something positive about gw2 they would have waited to see what LS3 has accomplished instead of showing of how great the Blade and Soul/Lineage apps are going to be for NCsoft.

Doam.8305:

TorsoReaper.8530:

as asureus.6287:

2016 – NCsoft boasts a record year on PC and mobile

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/52118/ncsoft-revendique-annee-record-pc-mobiles#reactions

French website use a translator

Not sure if you are aware but NCsoft makes more than GW2…

I think there knocking on GW2 just look at those numbers represented on the charts. They are all going steadily upwards and increasing with the exception of Aion and Gw2. Gw2 is worse of because those numbers represent the hatred shown to HoT because we see Gw2 at 86 prior to HoT, 101 for people giving it a try, and then it falls lower than it even started out as new and old players found that HoT left a bad taste in there mouth with the lowest of the three at 77.

If they wanted to post something positive about gw2 they would have waited to see what LS3 has accomplished instead of showing of how great the Blade and Soul/Lineage apps are going to be for NCsoft.

I was surprised seeing this thread up again. Few more weeks and Q1 results will be released.

Anyway, numbers had already been dropping a year long before the announcement of HOT. When it was announced (and later released) the numbers did go up again. But if you where to continue the dropping line from pre-HoT-announcement then we would now be in a similar place with the results.

So I think based on that you can not say HoT was the problem. Imho HoT was not able to solve the problem that preexisted HoT. That is at least also what the numbers seem to suggest.

Devata.6589:

Doam.8305:

TorsoReaper.8530:

as asureus.6287:

2016 – NCsoft boasts a record year on PC and mobile

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/52118/ncsoft-revendique-annee-record-pc-mobiles#reactions

French website use a translator

Not sure if you are aware but NCsoft makes more than GW2…

I think there knocking on GW2 just look at those numbers represented on the charts. They are all going steadily upwards and increasing with the exception of Aion and Gw2. Gw2 is worse of because those numbers represent the hatred shown to HoT because we see Gw2 at 86 prior to HoT, 101 for people giving it a try, and then it falls lower than it even started out as new and old players found that HoT left a bad taste in there mouth with the lowest of the three at 77.

If they wanted to post something positive about gw2 they would have waited to see what LS3 has accomplished instead of showing of how great the Blade and Soul/Lineage apps are going to be for NCsoft.

I was surprised seeing this thread up again. Few more weeks and Q1 results will be released.

Anyway, numbers had already been dropping a year long before the announcement of HOT. When it was announced (and later released) the numbers did go up again. But if you where to continue the dropping line from pre-HoT-announcement then we would now be in a similar place with the results.

So I think based on that you can not say HoT was the problem. Imho HoT was not able to solve the problem that preexisted HoT. That is at least also what the numbers seem to suggest.

Except that game income for MMOs without expansions over time is generally expected to fall over time anyway and for all we know there isn’t a problem. The problem is that an older game makes less money than when it was new? That’s a problem virtually all MMOs have.

The expansion was supposed to stem that tide and it did, but only for a very very short period of time. It didn’t do its job.

In order for you to say that it was a problem prior to the expansion being released, you’d need to know if Anet thought it was a problem. I don’t particularly think they did.

I was in the gaming industry on the selling side and I can tell you it’s a rare game of ANY kind that continues to make the same money as it did the first year.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Doam.8305:

TorsoReaper.8530:

as asureus.6287:

2016 – NCsoft boasts a record year on PC and mobile

http://www.jeuxonline.info/actualite/52118/ncsoft-revendique-annee-record-pc-mobiles#reactions

French website use a translator

Not sure if you are aware but NCsoft makes more than GW2…

I think there knocking on GW2 just look at those numbers represented on the charts. They are all going steadily upwards and increasing with the exception of Aion and Gw2. Gw2 is worse of because those numbers represent the hatred shown to HoT because we see Gw2 at 86 prior to HoT, 101 for people giving it a try, and then it falls lower than it even started out as new and old players found that HoT left a bad taste in there mouth with the lowest of the three at 77.

If they wanted to post something positive about gw2 they would have waited to see what LS3 has accomplished instead of showing of how great the Blade and Soul/Lineage apps are going to be for NCsoft.

I was surprised seeing this thread up again. Few more weeks and Q1 results will be released.

Anyway, numbers had already been dropping a year long before the announcement of HOT. When it was announced (and later released) the numbers did go up again. But if you where to continue the dropping line from pre-HoT-announcement then we would now be in a similar place with the results.

So I think based on that you can not say HoT was the problem. Imho HoT was not able to solve the problem that preexisted HoT. That is at least also what the numbers seem to suggest.

Except that game income for MMOs without expansions over time is generally expected to fall over time anyway and for all we know there isn’t a problem. The problem is that an older game makes less money than when it was new? That’s a problem virtually all MMOs have.

The expansion was supposed to stem that tide and it did, but only for a very very short period of time. It didn’t do its job.

In order for you to say that it was a problem prior to the expansion being released, you’d need to know if Anet thought it was a problem. I don’t particularly think they did.

I was in the gaming industry on the selling side and I can tell you it’s a rare game of ANY kind that continues to make the same money as it did the first year.

“Except that game income for MMOs without expansions over time is generally expected to fall over time anyway and for all we know there isn’t a problem.”

GW2 was using the “Living World” approach as a substitute for expansions. And those Living World patches where released while results where dropping. Now don’t get me wrong, I did not believe in that approach (I think you did defend it multiple times right?) and said from the beginning they should go for expansions. But they approach was to have that Living World as substitute to expansions.

So numbers where not supposed to drop even without expansions. But maybe that approach was the pre-existing-problem. Who knows. I have my ideas about what the issue was / is but that is not what it is about. Numbers did go down while they where not supposed to go down. Then HoT came to solve the dropping numbers and they succeeded in that by creating a temporary bump but eventually where not able to get rid of the downtrend.

“The expansion was supposed to stem that tide and it did, but only for a very very short period of time. It didn’t do its job.” That is what I was saying.

“In order for you to say that it was a problem prior to the expansion being released, you’d need to know if Anet thought it was a problem. I don’t particularly think they did.” Yes they did see it as a problem. They said multiple times they wanted to go for the living world approach (while an expansion still was on the table).

A very clear statement was here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

“"If we do this right," he answered, “we will probably never do an expansion and everything will be going into this Living World strategy.””

So clearly they did not get it right.

“I was in the gaming industry on the selling side and I can tell you it’s a rare game of ANY kind that continues to make the same money as it did the first year.” You have been in a lot of industries. Anyway, I was not really comparing it to the first year. As you might remember, in thread where I put all numbers together I did even remove or lowered that initial bump to get more realistic numbers over-time.

Basically, if you start looking at Q1 2013 (after initial bump) it dropped until a bump again in Q4 2013 and then it did keep dropping until the HoT announcement.

So forget about Q3 and Q4 2012 and then you still see the dropping line pre-HoT-announcement I was talking about.

When Guild Wars 2 became free to play, it may have broadened the player base a little bit. But, free players don’t tend to spend money on games. It’s not like broadening the player base by making game free to play will affect the bottom line, is it?

I spend my time in Guild Wars 2 working on achievements mostly and keeping up with story on multiple characters. WvW is a big part of my game time. Dungeons and Fractals, however, are not. I should get into those more, but I don’t know how to do any of them and I can’t get drag a party down with my noobness.

@Devata

Even MMOs with expansions drop over time. WoW once had 12.4 million subscribers and even after the next expansioin they never got back to that number. For the most part each subsequent expansion saw less and less people coming back.

Yes, MMO income falls over time even for the expansion models.

The launch of the first title in an MMO is often the strongest any MMO EVER is, and over the course of time they lose people until they settle into a comfortable group of people loyal to that game. At that point there are still people coming in and leaving but the loyal people tend to stay longer, as they have more invested in the game for longer. Those vested people keep MMOs alive. WoW is almost an exception to all things, but I think you’ll find with most other MMOs, from their big big year was the first year after release of the first game and they never capture that again.

You ignore the whole idea of a business plan. Some businesses are expected to make money year after year at the same levels, Some aren’t. That’s all part of a business plan.

Anet switched to an expansion model because people were talking about it nonstop on Forums and reddit, and it got to the point where it seemed the pressure to do an expansion was great. I don’t think they planned to do it. I think they were forced to do it by popular opinion.

Which is why HOT launched in the state it did, incomplete, with other features coming. They started working on it too late, and there’s no evidence that they started it because of the numbers in the quarterly report.

Devata.6589:

So numbers where not supposed to drop even without expansions.

Of course they were.

A living world + cash shop business model did not mean that the game would be immune to player fatigue/drop off.

It doesn’t really matter what your business model your numbers will, generally, go down over time.

Devata.6589:

So I think based on that you can not say HoT was the problem

It was a large part of the problem. The QQ was immense when it was released. Perhaps not on here where the more diehard fans congregate, but less biased places like mmoc or whatever…the feedback was not great even at the time. Granted, the game had already been branded as “dying” by that point due to the content drought before HoT and it’s never really managed to get rid of the association since, which is also no doubt stopping people from giving it a chance.

I only play GW2 very casually as something else is my main MMO, but personally I think Anet have tried to cater to the wrong audience with moving towards “harder” content (inb4 “erhmagerd its EZ git gud” etc, clearly HoT feedback suggests many felt that way about it). Seems like they antagonised their core customers and that’s what’s led to the decline. Raids in particular – fact is that at least two other MMOs do it far bigger and far better, baffling why they spunk dev time shoehorning it in here. Especially when the community makes it virtually inaccessible with their “meta” weirdness and gear score equivalency thing, its even worse than WoW in that regard.

If they’re gonna persevere with focusing on that, they really need to consider some form of entry level raid finder style thing so that the disenfranchised non raiders don’t carry on feeling kicked in the teeth. At least that way it’s there for them to realistically take part in to some degree if they want to. Better to go back to more casual open world focus though imo, what made the game popular in the first place.

Hope they can turn it around with whatever they’ve got upcoming anyways, game had so much potential.

Devata.6589:

“"If we do this right," he answered, “we will probably never do an expansion and everything will be going into this Living World strategy.””

So clearly they did not get it right.

It was impossible. People simply don’t care about some patch an MMO gets. Expansions however are actually marketed, treated like new games (ie, reviewed by gaming sites) and have a much wider reach because of it.

Season 2 was going stable, they just had no way of actually drawing people back to increase the numbers. As soon as HoT was announced, sales began to improve, but ended up dropping by 25% after launch.

Here’s everything:

Devata.6589:

Beldin.5498:

Devata.6589:

Afther the thread looking at GW2 results over a longer period ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Having-a-look-at-GW2-long-term-results/first that is now closed so save to link), I did want to have a look at the results for Q4 2016 and Q1 of 2017.

In that thread some people though it was too much of an ‘I told you so’ statement, well sadly this time I have to say ‘I was wrong’.

The results of Q4 did just get released, you can find them here: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/prfile.aspx?ID=9DE70054-C1F4-43C2-842B-8A228757B8D6
I expected Q4 to go up with it being Q4, shorter days, more vacation, Halloween, Wintersday and a lot of the season 3 release. Sadly I was wrong, Q4 2016 had even lower results the the two before.

At least the ‘It’s because the lack of content’ argument as reason for lower results can now be completely shredded.

It’s really sad because the core of the game is really good.

Other than the ‘problem’ that the game has, there is an addition problem now, its how do you get the people back.

For example, the upcoming patch is really something we should have had much sooner, simply because of the location of the map, that is something that interests people. But those that left will not be likely to come back to see it at this point.

I always did think that HoT and the first half year after it was basically when Anet had to solve the problem because even if they fixed it now, people are just not here / coming back to see it. The only way I could see many people coming back if is the next expansion would be marketed as GW3 but that would be really bad if the next expansion is nothing like a GW3.

Edit: Clarification about the ‘lack of content, shredder’ comment in my first post\/.

I guess the main reason why i will mostly never come back is that it seems in all
new content i have to use those gliding stuff and that means i first am forced to
grind in HoT .. and i simply don’t want to go there.

Oh .. and still no new armor sets .. just boring outfits.

Funny, I did run into a similar problem. Completing VB did not gave you all abilities you needed to complete the next map, so you could not 100% complete that, even after having completed it as far as you could. So you did go to the next map where you had the same problem and after having completed that as far as possible you still had not what you needed to complete the previous map. So in order to do that you basically had to start grinding to get all the required masteries. Now if I dislike something, it’s grinding, especially a currency (what xp is). So I did go back the the old maps and never unlocked more masteries.

It’s a similar problem as when you complete a map for level x, but after completing it you are not yet the required level for the next map. That is bad design imho. While it was likely deliberate as they wanted you to hang around in those maps, usually not a problem, but with all these group events it is a problem for people who prefer solo-play.

Completely VB can’t give you all the skills you need for the next map because they don’t unlock until you enter the map. However, if you enter the map early and come back, which many people do, then completing VB gives you everything you need for the next map, and that trend continues.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Well if other games are have less ‘free’ content and if they are better at retaining people (what might or might not be true depending on the game) with expansions then that might be what works better for many people.

Let’s take a look at those other games then.

The first one in numbers of revenue is Lineage. To my knowledge the game is still subscription based and is only active in Korea. I have no idea how expansions work with this one.

The second is Blade & Soul. B&S is free to play with an optional premium membership. “Expansions” have no cost.

Third one is Lineage II. Lineage II is also free to play, no cost for expansions, with an online marketplace.

Next up is Aion. Aion, just like the others, is free to play with free expansions and a cash shop again.

So all the games that surpass Guild Wars 2 in revenue have no paid expansions and the only NCSoft game on that list with paid expansions is Guild Wars 2…

These games are for different markets. Pretty much all of them except GW2 are targeted on the Asian markets and their profits come from them. European and American players have somewhat different tastes and what works (in the market sense) in Asia is not guaranteed to work there. In fact, it most likely won’t. Not to mention MMOs in general are more popular in Asia than they are in EU/US.

GW2 is still under the effects of the content drought after HoT launch. I have friends who only come to play the story for each new episode and then leave until the next one because they lost their enthusiasm about the game back then. This doesn’t mean ANet are doing poorly with the LS updates – they are doing fantastic job – but LS updates are something that can keep the active players in, not bring the retired ones back.

If ANet keeps the pace and quality of the updates, if they release the next expansion in a reasonable time and if it is a successful one, we’ll see GW2 figures improve. Until then it is only normal to see the small decline we’re seeing.

Feanor.2358:

If ANet keeps the pace and quality of the updates, if they release the next expansion in a reasonable time and if it is a successful one, we’ll see GW2 figures improve. Until then it is only normal to see the small decline we’re seeing.

I doubt an expansion is what Guild Wars 2 needs. An expansion, even a good one, won’t make free players convert, I’ve read it a billion times on these forums (usually as an excuse) than this game is full of casual players, and casual players do not read forums, nor review sites. An amazing expansion won’t turn these players into buying customers because apparently they won’t know about it, and since we are being told they are the vast majority of the GW2 audience, an expansion would be useless. Sure it will boost the sales as current players will buy it, but then we will be back to this situation.

The core game needs to be better. The core game needs to be exciting and inviting to new players, so they turn into paying customers. If the problem (as said by NCsoft themselves) is conversion of players into paying customers, an expansion won’t help as much with THAT. Fix the core game and sales will skyrocket.

maddoctor.2738:

Feanor.2358:

If ANet keeps the pace and quality of the updates, if they release the next expansion in a reasonable time and if it is a successful one, we’ll see GW2 figures improve. Until then it is only normal to see the small decline we’re seeing.

I doubt an expansion is what Guild Wars 2 needs. An expansion, even a good one, won’t make free players convert, I’ve read it a billion times on these forums (usually as an excuse) than this game is full of casual players, and casual players do not read forums, nor review sites. An amazing expansion won’t turn these players into buying customers because apparently they won’t know about it, and since we are being told they are the vast majority of the GW2 audience, an expansion would be useless. Sure it will boost the sales as current players will buy it, but then we will be back to this situation.

The core game needs to be better. The core game needs to be exciting and inviting to new players, so they turn into paying customers. If the problem (as said by NCsoft themselves) is conversion of players into paying customers, an expansion won’t help as much with THAT. Fix the core game and sales will skyrocket.

There is another thread going on about how gw2 (allegedly) has lost its identiy. Changing the core game would probably push those people away.

OniGiri.9461:

There is another thread going on about how gw2 (allegedly) has lost its identiy. Changing the core game would probably push those people away.

That thread is about different kinds of changes. I’ll give a couple of examples that I think are dumb and push new players away:
a) The requirement to reach level 10 before you can start your personal story. The story should start immediately after the tutorial and not tell you to level up first.
b) Having no gathering nodes in starter areas. Why in the world where those removed?
c) No underwater combat, but lots underwater areas in starter areas. I know they removed underwater combat because they thought it was confusing, but the new system is MORE confusing
d) Mobs that state they have abilities, but in reality they have no abilities. Spiders state under their hit points that they poison foes, but they never do because there are no conditions in starter areas
e) Terrible crafting experience for new players. With the way ascended crafting works, low level materials are really expensive, pushing newer players away of any kind of crafting. Crafting a piece of low level armor or weapon to use it in combat costs way more than buying it from the Trading Post. This means that crafting as a means to help your character in combat is effectively useless
f) Lack of any kind of meaningful tutorial, the tutorial instance isn’t a tutorial at all. A lot of players find the game really confusing and maybe that’s because it is…
g) The content helper that is supposed to direct you to events or unexplored areas still sends you to high level areas for you to die
h) A lot of really boring fights in the personal story. Mobs and bosses with insane amounts of hit points but next to no damage. Forging the Pact is a prime example of a horrible boss fight, it has millions of hit points, can chain CC the player, to make the battle take even longer, and his attacks just tickle. But other encounters in the personal story are really silly hp sponges

I can go on forever but this is besides the point of this thread. I doubt any of the above changes can affect the identity of the game in any way or form.

The free to play portion of the game (core game) should be the game’s seller. It should make the players interested with it, excited with it, so they invest and buy the game. Since SALES is where the problem of the game is, focusing on this experience is how to improve SALES and no amount of expansions can help with this starting experience.

“Don’t worry, it gets better at higher levels.” isn’t a good argument.

What I find ironic is that most of Maddoctor’s points about why the vanilla leveling game fails to entice PFF players to buy are things that were put into GW2 with the NPE, an initiative to make the game more inviting and accessible.

IndigoSundown.5419:

What I find ironic is that most of Maddoctor’s points about why the vanilla leveling game fails to entice PFF players to buy are things that were put into GW2 with the NPE, an initiative to make the game more inviting and accessible.

It would be ironic if the stuff that Maddoctor listed was bad with a capital B, but I don’t agree with everything on that list. In fact, I found the game more disjointed when I started because I had to sometimes stop to level in the middle of a story arc, which I hated. Now, the story arcs, which are in ten level increments, can be played straight through without stopping to level.

What there should be, or needs to be, is something to let you know up front that something will be happening at level 10, so you know it’s coming.

I don’t think taking nodes out of level 1-5 zones makes a difference, since a new player might not even have gathering tools by then. Go a bit further in starter zones and there’s plenty of stuff to harvest.

It simply doesn’t take that long to get out of the level 5 area.

I also haven’t had huge problems with the content guide. Not to say there aren’t occasional problems, but I don’t think it’s as common as implied.

IndigoSundown.5419:

What I find ironic is that most of Maddoctor’s points about why the vanilla leveling game fails to entice PFF players to buy are things that were put into GW2 with the NPE, an initiative to make the game more inviting and accessible.

The NPE was a disaster in my opinion and made the initial parts of the game more confusing rather than less confusing.

Vayne.8563:

@Devata

Even MMOs with expansions drop over time. WoW once had 12.4 million subscribers and even after the next expansioin they never got back to that number. For the most part each subsequent expansion saw less and less people coming back.

Yes, MMO income falls over time even for the expansion models.

The launch of the first title in an MMO is often the strongest any MMO EVER is, and over the course of time they lose people until they settle into a comfortable group of people loyal to that game. At that point there are still people coming in and leaving but the loyal people tend to stay longer, as they have more invested in the game for longer. Those vested people keep MMOs alive. WoW is almost an exception to all things, but I think you’ll find with most other MMOs, from their big big year was the first year after release of the first game and they never capture that again.

You ignore the whole idea of a business plan. Some businesses are expected to make money year after year at the same levels, Some aren’t. That’s all part of a business plan.

Anet switched to an expansion model because people were talking about it nonstop on Forums and reddit, and it got to the point where it seemed the pressure to do an expansion was great. I don’t think they planned to do it. I think they were forced to do it by popular opinion.

Which is why HOT launched in the state it did, incomplete, with other features coming. They started working on it too late, and there’s no evidence that they started it because of the numbers in the quarterly report.

It’s not about if incomes drops but if it drops to a point where it becomes a problem, where they have to decrease the dev-team, but also where the player-base it getting so small that you might up with empty maps and so on.

And yes not every business model is supposed to keep making money over a longer period, but for consumers MMO’s usually are supposed to go along many years.

“Anet switched to an expansion model because people were talking about it nonstop on Forums and reddit, and it got to the point where it seemed the pressure to do an expansion was great. I don’t think they planned to do it. I think they were forced to do it by popular opinion.” You might think that, but based on the numbers and Anet statements I think it’s more likely they where forced because of those numbers. Sure, the fact that many people asked for an expansion did then help to get that switch. But at the same time, the fact that people asked is because they Living World approach did not work. Again, the Living World approach was supposed to replace the expansions. If people where asking for expansions that means the LW was not able to replace the expansions.

Anyway, I am sure you have said all these things before, and I answered the same things to you before and on that you answered again and so on, and so on. So instead of making this some circular discussion between us again I better just let the thread go on. I did not leave my comment to get into another discussion with you again especially not as the discussion is already on the forum in older posts.

I do appreciate it that you always seem to comment on my comments. I guess you think I am a great person to debate with or something.