Guild Wars 2

Alright, first things first, this isn’t a whining tears post; rather, the intent here is to present arguments for and against the champion change following the May 20th 2014 Patch. That being said, if you’re incapable of reading a long post in its entirety, please do not make an uneducated reply. This post is intended to stir up intelligent conversations, not to begin a heated and pointless debate about exerting your internet dominance.

So in case you haven’t seen it yet, Champions in Starter Zones are now virtually nonexistent. Two other (large) posts have already been made, here and here. The general consensus has thus far been in support of this change, as one would hope that the negative attitudes expressed within the “Queensdale Train” cease to exist thanks to this patch.

As an aside, not once have I ever encountered any negativity within the train for new users that take out a champion before the train reaches it. There are two probable causes for this, the primary one being that new users aren’t particularly likely to take down a champion. The secondary probable cause is that the trains that we on Stormbluff Isle run are actually intelligent, and are perfectly used to skipping Oak/Troll if someone decides to take it down on their own.

There are, however, four problems with this change, all of which I’ll go into in detail as best I can. They are as follows:

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)
• A not-inconsiderable hit to getting new players/alts to higher levels quickly and easily (no one wants to stay in the starter zones for an eternity, and the trains were a fine way of getting you up to level 30 fast)
• A detrimental effect on the game’s presentation to new players (difficulty, opportunity, necessity of teamwork, etc.)
• A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

The first problem is easily explained: the trains presented a semi-steady influx of crafting materials (from excessive loot/salvaging). Now it’s not the end of the world here, the Starter Zone trains were not the end-all be-all of crafting material influx. CaptnRio’s post, linked and referred to above, argues that the sole economic “farm” from the QD train came in the form of raw coinage (1s75c/champ), but experienced players that run champ-trains know that this is far from the reason to run such trains.

The second problem is obvious enough. New players and alts are going to have a harder time scratching the surface of the greatness that Guild Wars 2 has to offer. I can’t speak for everyone of course, but in my opinion, the slog from level 2 to level 33-35 is obscenely boring, takes forever, and not at all indicative of the rest of the game. The champion trains, while boring for some, at least gave you a solid economic footing to get you rolling ahead in the game.

The third problem is purely an opinionated problem, one which there’s no clear resolution for because everyone is bound to have a different take on it. When I first entered Guild Wars 2 (after Open-Beta but during the Three-Day Headstart made available to pre-purchasers), I made a human guardian (my “main” to this day), waltzed into Queensdale, and got my head blown off by a particularly powerful bandit in a Renown Heart zone. I was undeterred, and soon thereafter—and to this day—I was solo’ing Champions across the world on my own. This is what Guild Wars 2 offered to its community: a challenge, but not an impossible one. Sure, removing the champions from the starting zones will remove the trains, but it also takes away from the “Living World” experience that Guild Wars 2 was able to offer so strongly. New players will no longer get such challenges early on, if ever, with this change. It’s sad, in some ways poetic, and in my opinion, the wrong move.

The fourth and final problem isn’t clearly evident nor is it memorable to anyone who didn’t jump on the Guild Wars 2 bandwagon right off and played the game immediately. The developers have made several comments supporting the notion that they want older, veteran players to be able to commit to and have justification for a return zones that are scaled for lower-level players. This is where and why the whole %-based XP reward, level-scale-down/up, and widespread community interaction first took off.

Some of you may be confused why I’m just dropping off these problems without going into great effort for/against them. These problems are open-ended and will evolve as the community does. I await your responses that I might to respond to them in applicable manners.

This is the first post I’m making on these forums in over a year, and I implore anyone significantly involved/affected (positively or negatively) by the Champion change to consider this post with some weight at least. This has been a dodgy move, in my opinion. It addresses one problem (jerks running champions in starter zones) lazily by removing the front for jerks to run trains in starter zones, but does nothing to affect the detrimental involvement said-jerks would have in the larger Guild Wars 2 community. In my opinion, this was a change which could have been handled very differently without beating around the bush and taking out a core game element that a couple idiots took for granted/abused.

So, at the end of the day, what will come of this, according to yours truly? I think some prices might rise long-term in the trading post (might be a good thing, frankly). I think the trains will move elsewhere, but the jerks will continue to be jerks. I think I’ll speak to my guildmates about trying to run CS/SoD/Kol trains again. Mostly, though, I think new players will miss out on fun gameplay that Guild Wars 2 once offered because of a patch whose intent was to make the game more presentable to new players.

Dodgy move, as I said.

I meant the above to suffice for my OP, but this just came to mind and I’d like to ask a direct question or two of my own. Quoted directly from the Game Updates patch notes:

“This change is being made to ensure new players focus on learning the core game experience.”

Forgive me for sounding a bit rash, but what exactly is meant by “core game experience”? And why isn’t this “core game experience” presented to new players during their introductory in-game race-specific quest (the thing that introduces you to the game and takes you from level 1 to 2)?

It doesn’t matter what people say now the change has been made and the main thread on this closed. I guess some people were rude to each other even though I didn’t see it. End of story, done deal..

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)

Doubt it. The hardcore will just move on to the next farm and we’ll be in the exact same position.

• A not-inconsiderable hit to getting new players/alts to higher levels quickly and easily

Levels 2 – 30 are the times you need to learn the basics of your character before getting in to traits etc. This is not done by following 50 other people and pressing 1.

• A detrimental effect on the game’s presentation to new players (difficulty, opportunity, necessity of teamwork, etc.)

See above. Necessity of teamwork has not changed, and the difficulty has changed for the better.

• A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

This hasn’t changed. The mobs are still there, you still get an item from them.

/myopinion

There is bound to be some upset over this initially – but for the long term, Arena Net have done the right thing. It’s going to cut down on the skewing of the game to new players – it’s going to dramatically cut down on map chat fighting and swearing (coming from both sides of the argument) and existing players will hopefully once again find the explorer in them.

There’s a whole world out there – and if all you stayed for was the champ train (edit – as people have stated they will leave the game because of it), you’re seriously missing out on a lot of content!

The issue really started with the introduction of champ loot bags. I would think the solution would be to remove said loot bags from the champs in starter areas rather than completely demote all of them. Also does not solve the problem of it being a good karma farm, but I suppose it is somewhat less relevant.

I am concerned at what a grind the game is becoming for new players with this change and the recent patch to traits. This move will worsen that situation somewhat, since unlocking traits sounds like quite the expenditure.

Time will tell.

penelopehannibal.8947:

There is bound to be some upset over this initially – but for the long term, Arena Net have done the right thing. It’s going to cut down on the skewing of the game to new players – it’s going to dramatically cut down on map chat fighting and swearing (coming from both sides of the argument) and existing players will hopefully once again find the explorer in them.

Yep because nerfs are always a good thing, LOL. Maybe next month your preferred method of playing will get nerfed. After all no matter where you play people might argue and talk bad in chat. So, best nerf the heck out of everything people like to do in groups to avoid that. Good grief.

I have not even done the QD train in several weeks and was never a frequent player in the trains. However, I am very anti-nerf and don’t like the idea that Anet is trying to funnel players away from things they may enjoy.

Here is another good example of nerfs gone too far:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/fotfw/Feedback-Thread-New-Crown-Pavilion-First-Impression/first

I don’t mind this but consider they killed pretty much every farm spot in the game. I wonder what’s next.

Would’ve been better for those champs to become elites. After the megacrap introduction I’m against anything that removes any even remotely difficult content from the game.

GummiArms.5368:

I am concerned at what a grind the game is becoming for new players with this change and the recent patch to traits. This move will worsen that situation somewhat, since unlocking traits sounds like quite the expenditure.

I’m sure that that was the whole intent though how can they expect players new to the game to be able to afford the cost?

I have no doubt that Anet will continue to nerf things in game that players like to do, this aint the first time. And here I thought that EA was the champ at killing their own games. Move over EA, you have competition.

The QD was a mindless zerg – not doing anything useful and annoying the players actually trying to level. I am happy that it was done – too many level 80’s just doing it BECAUSE!!!

Dusty Moon.4382:

The QD was a mindless zerg – not doing anything useful and annoying the players actually trying to level. I am happy that it was done – too many level 80’s just doing it BECAUSE!!!

That’s odd because I can recall many times when I was in the train and stepped aside to help people with skill points and such when they asked for help. I also know of many times when others in the train did the same to help new players out.

We get it, not your style of play but no need to make stuff up because you don’t agree with it.

Jrunyon.3012:

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)

Doubt it. The hardcore will just move on to the next farm and we’ll be in the exact same position.

Agreed. As mentioned, I’m working to restart familiar trains (Kol and the like; anyone remember the days of Kol before his train got nerfed?) or searching for new trains to partake in. The point is, the starting zone trains were trains that new players could take part in, which let them have a go in the market early on. This is no longer the case. Supply will decrease ever so slightly, but demand could potentially rise to a larger extent.

Jrunyon.3012:

*A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

This hasn’t changed. The mobs are still there, you still get an item from them.

You’re dodging my explanation here. The problem here is not that the same mobs remain where they were, the point is that higher-level players now have (virtually) no reason to return to lower-leveled zones while being scaled down. Anet was, during prerelease, quite happy with the fact that they were creating an environment in which there was significant reason to return to zones you’d already visited/completed.

GummiArms.5368:

Also does not solve the problem of it being a good karma farm, but I suppose it is somewhat less relevant.

I wanted to bring this up, but found nowhere to fit it into the OP. Karma was, initially, a currency that could and should have been farmed by doing things together and helping each other out. That was the whole concept of it. Today, however, working together isn’t really a profitable option anymore.

Dusty Moon.4382:

The QD was a mindless zerg – not doing anything useful and annoying the players actually trying to level. I am happy that it was done – too many level 80’s just doing it BECAUSE!!!

That’s the Cursed Shore train you’re referring to. At least on my server. My experiences with the QD train have been pleasant all-around.

Well, I hope ANet removes the need to do champions for the monthly. Especially for those players who who are new to the game below level 30.

We had a new guildmate join the game, not sure how they are going to be able to do champions at a low level (if the previous requirements for numbers remains the same.)

-Chalks up just one more alienating change to a game that is getting harder to take seriously

PS: I used to help new players out in QD on at least a weekly basis, if not daily. Wondering how many complaints we will start to see regarding lack of people in those zones, even with the Megaserver. /shrug

edit for bold

My thoughts;

“champ train does not represent the core of the game”; this is true. The game isn’t quite about running around from waypoint to waypoint killing champions. While it’s a way to play the game, it’s not the only one, and a completely new player coming across that train will jump on it and start thinking… “Is this it?” That’s obviously not good. Secondly, there’s a lot of potential negative behavior surrounding these trains; I’ve called champ locations in mapchat and gotten sprayed with vitriol, and if a new player is subjected to that just for trying to help, that’s going to be a huge turnoff.

On the economic impact; there are several champ trains. QD is only one of them. I don’t believe it’s even the must lucrative of them; I’m fairly certain that Frostgorge beats it out. People can still champ train if they want to; they’ll just have to go to a different zone.

On “you can’t do this for xp anymore when levelling alts” yeah that’s true, you won’t get the exact same XP/hr. However, as I understand, the meat of the XP you got was from the events, not from the bosses themselves (except obviously spider). You can still run around, do these events, and get a healthy amount of XP from it- And you’re less dependent on having a zerg with you when you do it, because of the mob downgrade.

The only thing I disagree with is removing the champ centaur from the high-scaled Garrison Defense event, mostly because it’s really really hard to tag mobs with high numbers of players around. I think all events should be trading up from normal→veteran→elite→champion more readily.

PPS: If the intent was to move players to a more “organic” play, spread throughout zones in the game, all they will do is force more PvE blobs (huge amounts of players) into following the scheduled Boss Timer, which means, hordes of players descend into a specific waypoint for 15 minutes, kill boss and move to the next zone.

-Again, hard to take this game seriously anymore

Kinda sad I don’t get to troll people in the train anymore.
Hilarious to randomly say, “killed X champion out of rotation” and watch the tears flow, when in reality, I had been nowhere near X champion at all.
Most of the time, I was running with the train to finish up dailies.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Dusty Moon.4382:

The QD was a mindless zerg – not doing anything useful and annoying the players actually trying to level. I am happy that it was done – too many level 80’s just doing it BECAUSE!!!

That’s odd because I can recall many times when I was in the train and stepped aside to help people with skill points and such when they asked for help. I also know of many times when others in the train did the same to help new players out.

We get it, not your style of play but no need to make stuff up because you don’t agree with it.

I applaud you for helping others when you visited Queensdale and enjoyed the train. Truly, I do. Even though the other poster was a little heated (as I’m sure MANY more posters will be on this thread) in his response, it does not mean he was “making stuff up” to further his own argument. There have been a great many posts, whole threads even, over the QD train specifically. No other champ train was as controversial.

goldenwing.8473:

PPS: If the intent was to move players to a more “organic” play, spread throughout zones in the game, all they will do is force more PvE blobs (huge amounts of players) into following the scheduled Boss Timer, which means, hordes of players descend into a specific waypoint for 15 minutes, kill boss and move to the next zone.

-Again, hard to take this game seriously anymore

I don’t believe there will be a difference in the “Horde” as you call it, which is the perfect word for it in my book btw. The Boss Timer zergs are crazy and I don’t think adding a little more crazy to the pot will make it any more so. The pot is already bubbling over and making a mess.

This is really a stupid move by anet. If they wanted to stop then trains then get rid of the loot for the champs, not the champs themselves. Some of us actually like to fight the champs on our spare time. Getting rid of the champs entirely is just stupid.

squallaus.8321:

This is really a stupid move by anet. If they wanted to stop then trains then get rid of the loot for the champs, not the champs themselves. Some of us actually like to fight the champs on our spare time. Getting rid of the champs entirely is just stupid.

‘Controversial’ would be the better word, don’t you think? As there are supporters on both sides. Also you won’t win any points by coming into a thread and calling ArenaNet stupid, btw, as it detracts from your point.

As for your argument…. I largely agree but think it would still have ended up with people outraged.

Sarrs.4831:

On the economic impact; there are several champ trains. QD is only one of them. I don’t believe it’s even the must lucrative of them; I’m fairly certain that Frostgorge beats it out. People can still champ train if they want to; they’ll just have to go to a different zone.

On “you can’t do this for xp anymore when levelling alts” yeah that’s true, you won’t get the exact same XP/hr. However, as I understand, the meat of the XP you got was from the events, not from the bosses themselves (except obviously spider). You can still run around, do these events, and get a healthy amount of XP from it- And you’re less dependent on having a zerg with you when you do it, because of the mob downgrade.

First of all, I appreciate the friendly input. Cheers!

I must say what I already pointed out, however. Regarding your first (quoted) objection, the Frostgorge Train is not a train readily accessible to new players. The economy will take a hit because new players will not be taking part in it. In effect, Anet actually hurt new players in a lot of practical ways with this patch while trying to help them out in social-ways.

Your second point is correct, of course. The events themselves will garner more %-XP than merely killing a champion/veteran. But while you’re running around getting XP, your gear will not as easily progress with you, as there likely won’t be any gear (that’s decent) dropped.

squallaus.8321:

If they wanted to stop then trains then get rid of the loot for the champs, not the champs themselves. Some of us actually like to fight the champs on our spare time.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Ceno.1763:

I must say what I already pointed out, however. Regarding your first (quoted) objection, the Frostgorge Train is not a train readily accessible to new players. The economy will take a hit because new players will not be taking part in it. In effect, Anet actually hurt new players in a lot of practical ways with this patch while trying to help them out in social-ways.

Three main points.

A new player isn’t someone who’s going to think about that. A new player should be focusing exclusively on getting the hang of basic mechanics; unlocking abilities, understanding how each part of map completion works, working out how to weapon swap. How to optimize their time economically should be far from their mind.

A level 1-15 character forms a relatively small portion of the market, and can’t affect the price of much of anything that is directly relevant to a ‘seasoned’ player. In those levels, they’ll only be generating T1 crafting mats from anything they do. These mats are already very much bottomed out, and they’re not directly relevant to any endgame economic endeavor apart from leveling professions.

Additionally, a levelling character does have other options for generating income. You only need to be level 25 to be able to do a Brisban run, and regular mining/logging in the Iron→Platinum range is generally still lucrative. They can still do EOTM trains. If a new player is somehow intensely focused on what they can do to make money, they’ve still got options.

So yeah. Newbies don’t know or care about the economy, newbies don’t have a big impact on the economy anyway, and if they want to make money, they still have options.

I don’t find GW2 dungeons fun and rarely do them. The champ train gave me a way to make money for gear without having to do something I don’t enjoy and so I find this a negative change.

If you found the train mindlessly boring then you shouldn’t have done it. I would try to make it interesting by trying to maximize my damage and try to take agro or sometimes I would heal if too many ppl were dying. If I needed to do something around the house I could and come back to the train right away. If you leave the EOTM train for any length of time its gone and you might not be able to get back to it and chasing after it won’t be easy. So you end up holding your pee in to stay with the EOTM train.

I don’t understand why so many ppl hated the champ trains. If you don’t like it don’t do it.

These deniers will be eating their words in a few months when they see the enormous increase in price each tier 1 piece of anything costs to level crafting. We’ll then see posts about it here on the forums just like we did when we warned them of other problems from “major changes” such as these that were thought to be completely justified without an ounce of testing in the public venue beforehand to gauge reaction and consequence. But they’ll either be logged into another title most likely by then or they will have forgotten entirely what they said about your warning and then begin making accusations that somehow it was the casuals fault as is everything that happens to this game these days.

Sarrs.4831:

A level 1-15 character forms a relatively small portion of the market, and can’t affect the price of much of anything that is directly relevant to a ‘seasoned’ player. In those levels, they’ll only be generating T1 crafting mats from anything they do. These mats are already very much bottomed out, and they’re not directly relevant to any endgame economic endeavor apart from leveling professions.

I’ll grant you that, but only because I forgot how salvaging works on low-level equipment. :P Though truth be told, my professions really need to be leveled and this will probably hurt my wallet as a result.

I have to disagree with your other points, however. From my experience and from talking about and introducing the game to several of my friends, there are bountiful amounts of new players who want to get their hands in the economy quickly.

MotherKitten.6795:

I don’t find GW2 dungeons fun and rarely do them. The champ train gave me a way to make money for gear without having to do something I don’t enjoy and so I find this a negative change.

100% agreed. I don’t run dungeons, I don’t do Fractals, I don’t do WvW or SPvP. I farm coin and karma, and that’s it. That’s the way I as a consumer want to play the game, and its kind of insulting that I’m continually shown that this playstyle is being phased out.

Good post. I’m not sure that in the larger picture, the problems you’ve laid out will eventuate, however. Here’s why I think so:

1. Yes, the Champ trains were a great source of T5 materials, and they helped inject supply of T6 and Lodestones into the economy as well. However, they also created inflation alongside it by the flat silver they gave out per Champ bag. That meant that an increase in mat supply went right along with greater purchasing power, effectively neutralising the benefit.

In the short term though, the Champ train is likely to just move to another map. Any map with a fairly high concentration of Group Events is likely to have many Champions to kill. So, while we may see a brief spike in material prices, it likely won’t stay high for long.

2. This is a a personal opinion, I must say. Levelling up, I actually thought I gained levels TOO quickly. I frequently outlevelled my gear faster than I could replace it, and I eventually just settled for using whatever dropped for me and only replacing gear if it was 10 levels or more below my current level.

Visiting all the low level maps in turn will give you a LOT of XP. I completed Queensdale/Wayfarer’s/Ashford/Metrica/Caledon before moving on to the next tier of maps, and by the time I was finished, my characters were level 35.

On average, you will gain 1 level for about 1 hour’s worth of play. I feel this is quite fair (and indeed, extremely quick by most MMO standards).

3. This I will agree with you about. I think that nerfing the Champs to Veterans was a bit too much. Making them Elites so that newbies will struggle to beat them alone, and introduce them to teaming up for Group Events, would have been a better move.

That said, not ALL Champions have been affected. The bosses at the end of meta-events such as the assault on Svanir’s Dome are still Champions (although Horace is a notable exception). So it is still possible for players in low-level zones to get experience fighting Champions.

4. Maps with World Bosses won’t really have this problem. Level 80’s will continue to visit starter maps for the Shadow Behemoth, Maw Shaman etc. Plains of Ashford should also still get traffic from players visiting for Ascalonian Catacombs. I often still visit low-level maps to keep my girlfriend company as she levels alts, and I’m sure that many other players do the same for friends and family.

Just imagine this. You’re a new player, out exploring Queensdale. You’re told that this game isn’t about farming (thats another debate), and it strives on co-corporation. You see a champion, you and a few other newbies kill it.

Then all of a sudden, you get yelled at by 50 people calling you all sorts of names. You ask why, they answer it’s because you ruined their farm.

Does that sound good to you?

Xae Isareth.1364:

Just imagine this. You’re a new player, out exploring Queensdale. You’re told that this game isn’t about farming (thats another debate), and it strives on co-corporation. You see a champion, you and a few other newbies kill it.

Then all of a sudden, you get yelled at by 50 people calling you all sorts of names. You ask why, they answer it’s because you ruined their farm.

Does that sound good to you?

This was exactly what happened to me a few months back. My noobish self was exploring Queensdale and completing hearts when I wandered into a cave and touched a stone/rock. Out popped a champ troll (which killed me pretty quickly), and it ran out of the cave and started rampaging the farms nearby. I had a chuckle watching it kill all the farmers and bulls and harpies in its path …

Anyways some players nearby stopped to help kill it, but one disgruntled person called out in mapchat that the troll is dead and the abuse started. I had to log off the game entirely when I got whispers.

As much as I tried to ignore it, I was still rather upset and in a foul mood for the rest of the day.

Well, here’s what’s funny (see my other post about ANet not properly analyzing consequences)….

in both Queensdale and Wayfarer’s: someone would announce the previously champion mob was up and less than 30 secs later it was dead.

Changing the champions and leaving them as events did not help the new players.

It only allowed the high level players to kill the veterans solo.

And then someone solo’d the remaining Champion (Oak) in Queensdale and the map chatter that apparently was the cause of most of the complaints was back in full force.

Did ANet solve anything?

Or is it too early?

Or was that not a fully bug-free implementation?

At the high end of the game, I have all too frequently overheard players entering new, less populated zones – asking “where’s the train on this map”.

Queensdale train has created a generation of players that only know how to zerg and tag mobs. They have minimal understanding of fine gameplay or their classes skillsets (Other than learning which skills provide the fastest, safest tags), not introducing players to trains until ~level 15 gives them time to experiment before people push them onto the train.

A while ago I looked at what other areas might work for a champ train. Gendarran Fields turned out to be really good, including two sets of two champs very close to each other. Since I looked at that however three of those four champs have been downgraded (the spider near the rich iron ore node, and two pirates) so I don’t think that a champ train there would work any more.

Perhaps ANet could look at zone 2 areas (anything including levels 20-35) for adding champs. These areas don’t have world bosses after all, and while I am not a fan of champ trains in general, they are a social aspect of the game that people seem to enjoy, and given that they generate less gold than dungeon runs with a good group I say why not.

Ghost.5296:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Just imagine this. You’re a new player, out exploring Queensdale. You’re told that this game isn’t about farming (thats another debate), and it strives on co-corporation. You see a champion, you and a few other newbies kill it.

Then all of a sudden, you get yelled at by 50 people calling you all sorts of names. You ask why, they answer it’s because you ruined their farm.

Does that sound good to you?

This was exactly what happened to me a few months back. My noobish self was exploring Queensdale and completing hearts when I wandered into a cave and touched a stone/rock. Out popped a champ troll (which killed me pretty quickly), and it ran out of the cave and started rampaging the farms nearby. I had a chuckle watching it kill all the farmers and bulls and harpies in its path …

Anyways some players nearby stopped to help kill it, but one disgruntled person called out in mapchat that the troll is dead and the abuse started. I had to log off the game entirely when I got whispers.

As much as I tried to ignore it, I was still rather upset and in a foul mood for the rest of the day.

Do you want to know what’s real sad? This actually happened in mapchat today AFTER the patch. People were discussing the change and then one guy says "guys don’t bother heading to troll some “noob” just killed it". I replied and this is EXACTLY the reason this change was made and had to be made. We then got into a semi argument about it. Even after this change people are still telling others what to do and what not to do in the game, it’s plain silly…

Oh and yes, evidently some trains are still running in Queensdale lol. I was doing my daily and called out that wasp was about to spawn if anyone wanted to kill it for a laugh or old times sake. Sure enough I have it down to about 30% hp and some 6-8 players all turn up to kill it before heading off in the direction of the boar….

Ceno.1763:

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)

This change’s effect on the economy will likely be so minuscule that, unless for some reason you’re tracking the rate at which 5-slot bags are entering the trading post, the change will be unnoticeable. The most significant change will likely be a slight increase in price of the “container” items that drop in Queensdale, which will help new players earn money a tiny, tiny bit faster.

Ceno.1763:

• A not-inconsiderable hit to getting new players/alts to higher levels quickly and easily (no one wants to stay in the starter zones for an eternity, and the trains were a fine way of getting you up to level 30 fast)

Almost everything you do in the game gives you experience, even sPvP now. Actually playing the game is a MUCH better way to level than hoping your low level character can keep up with the champ train and do enough damage to get credit.

Ceno.1763:

• A detrimental effect on the game’s presentation to new players (difficulty, opportunity, necessity of teamwork, etc.)

So players who first start the game see a group of 50 people appear, kill 6 things in a row and repeat. If I started a new game and saw that as the content of the game, I would never play that game again. It’s better that new players don’t immediately have the most boring aspect of the game (farming) shoved down their throats.

Ceno.1763:

• A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

I’m not going to counter this, because this doesn’t make any sense. (I haven’t read through the responses though, so if you explained this in a later comment, I missed it.)

EnemyCrusher.7324:

Ceno.1763:

• A detrimental effect on the game’s presentation to new players (difficulty, opportunity, necessity of teamwork, etc.)

So players who first start the game see a group of 50 people appear, kill 6 things in a row and repeat. If I started a new game and saw that as the content of the game, I would never play that game again. It’s better that new players don’t immediately have the most boring aspect of the game (farming) shoved down their throats.

I liked your entire post but especially this. I’ve been playing since launch. I loved the experience I had starting GW2… and if it had been like it was just before this patch, I would not have wanted to play beyond the first day.

Granted I’m still unhappy at the current state of the game. But anything that is done to bring back some of the purity of the original game that I bought 2 years ago is good in my book.

I agree with everything you said
I just want to say one thing:

Before Megaserver on my own server we had a wonderful train- it was never very very big but it was so much fun.

I swear half the people hanged out in the train because they liked to just chat, goof off and help random new people with vistas and skill points and general advice.
We even ran a bounty chest circuit and patiently waited as most got lost in Demon Grubb pits

It was a great time and I made many good friends both old and new
Many of the regulars were PvP players or WvW players that just came to Queens to hang out and chill a bit

We were never rude and I don’t really recall any arguments either
If anything, if someone blew his top people generally just asked if the person was having a bad day

That was the old train.
I will miss my dance partner – but hey, I haven’t seen her since the April 15th patch

I guess the big problem for me is that Anet just meddles to much I can understand crashes or bug fixes but the constant mechanic changes and then messing with the economy becomes a bit much. I think if this keeps up they are going to have a game with no players. I hope they realize what they are doing and ease off the hammer a little.

Guys, lets be honest on this one:

Fact: I did farm the Queensdale train even before the spider was nerfed to an elite;
Fact: I got my level 80 exotic gear when I was like level 22 due to the train;
Fact: It was indeed a fun activity and at times a nice way to socialize with people;
Fact: By hitting level 60 I had some pieces of my cultural tier 3 armour aka insane farm.

Now, lets look at it from the other side:

The train is probably the dumbest way of leveling and farming in the game:

• Everything you do is press 1;
• Due to that reason by level 80 you still have no idea how your hero works exactly;
• If someone messes up with the train order, everyone goes into insulting spree (I’ve did it and I’ve seen people doing it);
• It is in a starting area so many new players prefer to just join the train and two weeks later, they still have no idea how to get to Kessex Hills.

So .. yea. Move on just like I did after my first char hit 80. I started doing dungeons and this was when I realized how useless I am because, happily, in dungeons, you’re 5, not 50.

could any one give me a link of the details of the change in the new pack? I just couldn’t find it anywhere.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-May-20-2014

Are there no champ trains in the next higher level zone?

SkyFierce.2071:

could any one give me a link of the details of the change in the new pack? I just couldn’t find it anywhere.

this post here

Time to move on, people.

I’ve heard the FGS train is still up and running these days.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Time to move on, people.

I’ve heard the FGS train is still up and running these days.

Slightly modified but yes its still up and running.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Just imagine this. You’re a new player, out exploring Queensdale. You’re told that this game isn’t about farming (thats another debate), and it strives on co-corporation. You see a champion, you and a few other newbies kill it.

Then all of a sudden, you get yelled at by 50 people calling you all sorts of names. You ask why, they answer it’s because you ruined their farm.

Does that sound good to you?

Perhaps your argument might have been better if you didn’t try to inflate it well beyond what was really happening. Getting yelled at by 50 people? I haven’t even seen half that number of players in the train in ages (though i admit i was never doing much of train running, beyond doing occasional dailies and monthlies). And you certainly wouldn’t get flamed by all of them – at best two or three. On a bad day.
But then, i have seen much worse flames in other parts of the game lately due to megaserver. Perhaps we should remove megaserver then? Or Tequatl… have you ever seen how bad that one can get?

The truth is, the “toxicity” was (and is) a completely separate problem, and just got used as an argument by people that didn’t like the train for different reasons. Reasons that for most cases were variations on having their own vision of How This Game Should Be Played, and getting angered by anyone Playing The Wrong Way.

The economic impact is zero, mostly because people can move to the next level zones for a champion farm. They only removed it from 1-15 areas. 15-25/30 areas were not touched. In fact, the impact is likely positive because now people are more likely to get t2/t3 fine materials in those areas than they are in a lowbie area.

The leveling “issue” is also a massive non-issue. Because they remained as events, they were only made into veterans. Anyone and their mother can defeat a veteran with planning. This makes running those event chains much easier.

Astralporing.1957:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Just imagine this. You’re a new player, out exploring Queensdale. You’re told that this game isn’t about farming (thats another debate), and it strives on co-corporation. You see a champion, you and a few other newbies kill it.

Then all of a sudden, you get yelled at by 50 people calling you all sorts of names. You ask why, they answer it’s because you ruined their farm.

Does that sound good to you?

Perhaps your argument might have been better if you didn’t try to inflate it well beyond what was really happening. Getting yelled at by 50 people? I haven’t even seen half that number of players in the train in ages (though i admit i was never doing much of train running, beyond doing occasional dailies and monthlies). And you certainly wouldn’t get flamed by all of them – at best two or three. On a bad day.
But then, i have seen much worse flames in other parts of the game lately due to megaserver. Perhaps we should remove megaserver then? Or Tequatl… have you ever seen how bad that one can get?

The truth is, the “toxicity” was (and is) a completely separate problem, and just got used as an argument by people that didn’t like the train for different reasons. Reasons that for most cases were variations on having their own vision of How This Game Should Be Played, and getting angered by anyone Playing The Wrong Way.

Of course that same argument you put out does in fact play out both ways…
Playing the " Wrong Way" is of course very subjective, who was in fact playing the wrong way will be thrashed out for as long as this game lasts… the train think players that loose them a loot bag are playing the wrong way out of spite and those players think the train is playing the content out wrong .. rinse repeat and soon the toxicity exists across all parts of the community and all facets of the game.
I personally cheer they killed it, but it will be a shortlived party when the same trains descend upon the existing trains across Orr, FG and the boss timer… so in the end nothing will have really happened except starter maps will become a little less zergy (possibly even considered empty again – though with Megaserver I doubt that to be overly true) and champ/boss content, as trivialised as it has already become will be still see its influx of players who zone in/zone out on their rotations.

The train in QD was a bad place to have it positioned.. all those champs in one start map was silly bad… nerfing them down to vets was a brave move on ANETS part, though maybe not all should of been, but what they absolutely should of done, still should do, is pout champs on harder rotations or even loot lock outs for “X” period of time, then trains will be better controlled and the economy (if this really is a justification for the changes) will be less impacted by trains.

1. If high level players come down into low level areas, in a way that creates a toxic and beginner unfirendly enviroment, then they should stay away.
Champ trains are mostly run by elitists who are in there for their own profit and not for an comunity effort (at least my experience).

2. Hard enemies are still there, they just do not give the reward you as a high level player wants.
Low level player and beginner however might really enjoy the challenge.
The reward should change, though… maybe through a daily chest they can open after defeating an enemy (which is guarding said chest… i mean really guarding it, because it is its layer…)

3. hit on economy?
I doubt it.. but maybe we finaly have the prices go down. I have no pitty for farmers to be honest… Also it is a economy… things will simply adjust… maybe the gemprice will finaly go down a bit…

I like the change, mostly.

Starter areas now teach players the basics of the game. The events and crafting materials in the starter areas is still worth it for high-level players to return to – they simply wander the zone on their own instead of clustering into zerg farming trains.

The economy will change, yes, but that is not an inherently good or bad thing. It might slow or reverse inflation. It will probably also increase the value of low-level gear by reducing the glut the QD train created, allowing new players to get more wealth in.

As for leveling from 1-30 being a slog… that’s simply a problem caused by the new trait system that needs to die.

That said, I wish the starter zones all had a single champion in them as a “Zone Boss” – introducing new players to champs, but not creating farmable “train”. Not sure who should be the “boss” of Queensdale (Maybe the cave troll?), but the Effigy is definitely a memorable boss for the plains of Ashford, and should be kept.

When I started playing the game and was a noob, I went out in first location and started playing and learning my skills, UI, mobs and so on.

But then my friends stopped me and kept repeating something about “train” and getting easy exp, and dragged me across the world to a completely different place and explained to me the order of waypoints I should use to join the “train”.

The problem was, I was trying to learn the game, and they wanted me to get easy rewards as fast as possible by mindlessly mashing keys.

The thing was, I rolled a sylvari in Caledon Forest, and they rolled humans in Queensdale.