Guild Wars 2

Apologies in advance, this will be lengthy, and I’ve been bad at explaining this already, but I’ll give it one last go.
<rant>
Let recall for a moment those fond days in Guildwars 1, where we would be pugging Hero’s Ascent.
Scattered players sitting around an outpost, spamming things like ‘lf 3 R5+ SWAY’ or ‘lf1m R8+’
SWAY being a team build that was popular at one time for HA. The R5+ or R8 is referring to rank. As people competed in Hero’s Ascent, they’d gain rank. The bar would move out further for each additional rank. Rank 1 would be 25 points, rank 2 was 75 points, rank 8 was 2800, rank 15 was at 100,000 points.
What did Rank get you? You had a title you could show that would reflect your rank. You could also type /rank, which would cause a ghostly image of one animal or another to appear for a few brief seconds. There was no tangible benefit to the titles.
The theory behind the Rx+ requests was that by seeking players of higher rank, you’d be getting better skilled players. Not necessarily true, but it was the only ruler players had for measuring skill.

Leap forward to today’s WvW – nevermind that it’s not supposed to be balanced, that’ NOT my point. In fact, my point doesn’t have to do with the gameplay – not directly, but we’re getting ahead of things.
Ranks have been introduced to WvW. “Eh, ok.” (These bring back fond memories of the elitest HA days, but players can and will at times be idiot-jerks)
Abilities have also been introduced, making the ranks functionally significant… That’s right – it’s no longer a matter of pure skill and proper equipment. Now it’s a matter of skill, equipment, and that elusive ‘Rank’ stuff. Eh… probably easy stuff to max, given a little time… right?
Lets see…something near 2500 points needed to max everything… one point a level, and farming points yields me….. yeesh, about 3 a weekend. At this rate, I’d need 16 years to get all the unlocks. Players who have done this are going to be valuable. Players who have done nothing are not. ‘R9G LF1M’ shudder

Hello elitest guilds who praise WvW rank above all else, and who will shun any player who hasn’t unlocked all of the ‘basic required set’, but will praise any player who has unlocked everything. Worst, they’ll be tactically correct to do so. And oh, the day that random pugs are asked to leave a map because it’s full and their 6 ‘all maxed players are stuck in queue…’ That day isn’t far behind…

So…. WvW was fun while it lasted, but I’m not going to hang around to be asked to leave the map just because my rank isn’t shiny enough for some elite guild to share the map with.

And besides, “I’ve not seen everything the designers intend. They’ve had some brilliant decisions that looked sucky on day one, and just needed time to roll out. This may be another of those that I need to see more of before it makes sense. But until then, not going to waste my time.”

… to be continued…

… continued…

Lets take another walk down memory lane, back to the days of armoring up in Guildwars 1. “Wow, that armor looks shiney” says the new guild member. He’s just got the game too and is grinding his way through Prophecies – the first and most penny-pinching campaign in the game. You might finish the campaign with 10 or so platinum to your name (call it 10 Gold in GW2 currency) less expenses, which might include a full set of max level armor (1 gold/piece + mats) and sometimes those mats were pricey, leaving the member pennyless.

And that shiny armor the new guild member is remarking on? Oh, that’s the shiny stuff out of Eye of the North, and costs 10 platinum per piece. Or worse… you might be wearing obsidian armor (~ 1400 platinum for the set, figure pricier in GW1 than most legendaries in GW2). …the sticker shock once you relate the prices… the character models didn’t express it well but you could see it all the same.

Lets wind forward to Guild Wars 2, with a similar scenario, someone new to the game/guild asking: “Ooh, that’s shiny looking armor, and I need those stats too! How can I get it?” “Well, I can craft you a set for cost. Only be a bit over 90g. The runes on it go for another 11g each, so right near 150 gold…. another gold for the skin…. gems for the transmutation…” Ah yes. Sticker shock. The look still hasn’t changed.

Funny thing is, I’ve played the game a while. I’ve saved a little bit. I’ve invested quite a bit more than I’ve saved, but once my sword sells I should be doing fantastic money-wise. Till then, I’ll bank ectos I salvage and see what I can make once I have a stack. Many players in my guild are in a similar spot. They’ve purchased everything they need to play, and are now just saving money for future needs. Heck, I often give out satchels and boxes of armor to new players, partly to burn materials I have in excess, partly to give them a bit of an assist in the early game.

New players after all, have expenses. Armor. sometimes Weapons. Trait books. Jewelery. Bank slots, bag slots…

I’m looking at my character’s Hero page, with the new UI for the achievements, and noticing a tiny…. little…box… on the right side…
Account Bonuses; Gold Find, Magic Find, Karma Gain, XP Gain

So looking at my own account… level 80 with 200+ skill points, plus quite a few stacks of fractal relics that can be converted to even more skill points. I’ve got no use for xp.
I’ve got over 3 million unspent karma, just on my main character – I’ve got no use for more karma.
I’ve got an 1100+ gold item waiting to sell on the TP, plus another 20 odd pages of random stuff waiting to sell, I don’t exactly need more gold, and my storage panes are quite full from loot that’s dropped or been salvaged into mats, or gold that’s been converted into them for long-term storage… I don’t have much need for bonus magic find.

But that new player, who’s just been told the armor that they’ve been told they need costs 150g… now also has a shiny new achievement pane, showing +0% next to Magic Find and Gold Find.

Insult+Injury, that is. Me, who has no use for the bonuses have them. A new player who could well benefit from them, does not. Even Karma fits in there with the Karma Armor, new players can go to that for their first set of exotic, but as far as rate of earning karma, they start at the bottom.

So in summary….
I find these changes have made the WvW players uneven (not the playing field – that was never intended to be level), in such a way that will long term, be a detriment to that part of the game – players are, after all, only human. Smart humans, conniving humans, but humans all the same and they will unthinkingly insult each over over this. Now we’re insulting new players in an effort to appease current players, by giving long-term players things they don’t properly have a use for.

//Portable Corpse
Yes, I suck at explaining things.

I definitely agree. I originally wanted the commander title, but I’m at like 6 gold right now just because I don’t have the time to farm CoF endlessly. I feel like I’m at the very bottom in terms of Karma, gold, and laurels because I just don’t have the time to WvW every single second of every day. I feel like I’m so behind in WvW that I don’t even want to start right now, because I know the time it’s going to take to catch up to other players. It’s nice to see a fellow GW1 player that remembers HA and shares my view on it, in any case. Good opinion though, I enjoyed reading it.

I dare you to type /rank in GW2.

/thread?

One of the biggest issues in GW1 was character development/progress. There was none. This is what happens when you add that.

PVStar.3658:

One of the biggest issues in GW1 was character development/progress. There was none. This is what happens when you add that.

It wasn’t an issue in GW1. The fact that it didn’t exist in GW1 worked extremely well because it diverted the focus to the actual content and the actual story. I’m not saying GW2 shouldn’t have vertical progression though, different game targeted at a different market. I <3 both, but in all seriousness if you insult GW1 I will eat you

FlamingFoxx.1305:

PVStar.3658:

One of the biggest issues in GW1 was character development/progress. There was none. This is what happens when you add that.

It wasn’t an issue in GW1. The fact that it didn’t exist in GW1 worked extremely well because it diverted the focus to the actual content and the actual story. I’m not saying GW2 shouldn’t have vertical progression though, different game targeted at a different market. I <3 both, but in all seriousness if you insult GW1 I will eat you

+5000

If Guild Wars 2 was half the game Guild Wars 1 was…. I would play a lot more than once every week. You actually got immersed in the story and got extremely excited when you completed something difficult. In GW2 though, you only need sheer numbers to overcome obstacles instead of coming up with your own build and seeing what works. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I killed Zhaitan with a freakin cannon when I had defeated Abaddon about a month before with my bare hands and a build that I had made and was proud of.

Other people can’t see your rank in wvw, and the bonuses they give are mostly for siege, are you really going to complain if someone who is maxed in ac mastery wants to man the ac so that your server can defend it’s keeps better? I’ve never seen anyone in wvw ask for anyone’s rank in the first place, the only time I hear about it is if someone is trying to brag. Then for the account bonuses… I just don’t.. do you want them to be removed all together? A new player isn’t going to be rewarded for something they didn’t do (the achievements).

Rank in heroes’ ascent was one of the most complained about things, it’s very funny you remember it “fondly”. Says alot about the type of player you are.

Half your argument makes no sense either. You’re talking from the perspective of someone with stacks of ecto. I’ve also been playing since day one and guess what … I just bought my precursor and starting the legendary quest. Some people welcome these changes, the kind of people who play this for the long run.

Festina lente.

Galtrix.7369:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

PVStar.3658:

One of the biggest issues in GW1 was character development/progress. There was none. This is what happens when you add that.

It wasn’t an issue in GW1. The fact that it didn’t exist in GW1 worked extremely well because it diverted the focus to the actual content and the actual story. I’m not saying GW2 shouldn’t have vertical progression though, different game targeted at a different market. I <3 both, but in all seriousness if you insult GW1 I will eat you

+5000

If Guild Wars 2 was half the game Guild Wars 1 was…. I would play a lot more than once every week. You actually got immersed in the story and got extremely excited when you completed something difficult. In GW2 though, you only need sheer numbers to overcome obstacles instead of coming up with your own build and seeing what works. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I killed Zhaitan with a freakin cannon when I had defeated Abaddon about a month before with my bare hands and a build that I had made and was proud of.

If Guild Wars 1 was half the game Guild Wars 2 is, more people might still be playing it.

Vayne.8563:

If Guild Wars 1 was half the game Guild Wars 2 is, more people might still be playing it.

Oh. Really. Last release for GW1 was EOTN, in 2007. For 4plus years, GW1 soldiered on with no added major content, making enough money to help fund the making of GW2. People bought GW1 knowing that there were no plans to expand it further, and still do. GW1 is still up and running, now 5 plus years with no expansion or campaign.

I think we all get that you hated GW1. Fine. But snotty statements like the one above are unjustified and petty. I cannot imagine very many MMOs, including this one, that could survive.. and still be running… 5 years after the last major content expansion and announcement that there would be no more.

You delight in bashing a game that was basically put on minimum life support to make this one, and then blame the game? If it was “half” the game this one is, it would have never survived, and yet, it did and does.

Quite honestly, I can imagine the number crunchers at ANET/NCsoft are praying that GW2 is half the game GW1 is in terms of customer loyalty and longevity.

Thank god you quit WvW over that, we need to weed out every whiner we can.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

If Guild Wars 1 was half the game Guild Wars 2 is, more people might still be playing it.

Oh. Really. Last release for GW1 was EOTN, in 2007. For 4plus years, GW1 soldiered on with no added major content, making enough money to help fund the making of GW2. People bought GW1 knowing that there were no plans to expand it further, and still do. GW1 is still up and running, now 5 plus years with no expansion or campaign.

I think we all get that you hated GW1. Fine. But snotty statements like the one above are unjustified and petty. I cannot imagine very many MMOs, including this one, that could survive.. and still be running… 5 years after the last major content expansion and announcement that there would be no more.

You delight in bashing a game that was basically put on minimum life support to make this one, and then blame the game? If it was “half” the game this one is, it would have never survived, and yet, it did and does.

Quite honestly, I can imagine the number crunchers at ANET/NCsoft are praying that GW2 is half the game GW1 is in terms of customer loyalty and longevity.

Actually, Vayne quite frequently posts that he liked GW1, so you can’t make that accusation. He just ALSO likes GW2 and feels that in many ways they have improved on an already good formula. So saying this is ridiculous.

Also, his comment isn’t petty or snotty as you describe. It is, if you look at what he’s quoted, a direct response to another poster, inverting that poster’s comment. If anything, the original poster made the “snotty” comment, and Vayne turned it on his head, exactly to prove what a ridiculous comment it was to make.

So please read it again.

I’m not going to comment on the WvW element.

If I understood your ranting about gearing up correctly, though, I disagree with the sentiment. There are many, many ways to gear up. Many options are cheaper than asking someone to craft you a set, even if they sometimes take a little longer. Dungeons give very easily obtainable armour in a variety of skins and stats. Most recently the achievement rewards have been chucking badges of honour at us like sweeties – I have obtained almost 2 sets of L80 exotic armour so far. True, I have the achievement points banked up since release, but in order to obtain one set you only require 4000ish APs? There is plenty to do in-game in order to increase your achievement points and earn these rewards as a new player is levelling for the first time. In addition, do I even need to mention Karma? Karma Jugs, Karma Drops, Karma from dungeons – the world is filled with Karma which can – you guessed it – also be used to obtain exotic armour and jewelry.

If new players struggle with gearing up it’s very likely that they just don’t know the different ways it can be so easily obtained. I accept that some rune sets can cost a lot of money, but there is absolutely no harm in using Orbs instead until you earn money for the rune set you crave.

There are two points being made here. It’s clear that some of you have seen at least one of the points, and others have failed. Whether that’s my failure to explain, or their failure to see a world where nobody is akittens center…

I’m trying to make two points.

First:

Long term players don’t need MF, Gold, XP or Karma buffs. They’ll have these in spades.
Oh, some may have hyper-expensive projects to work on (legendaries), but those are just shinies that don’t affect gameplay. If they want to work on them, that’s fine by me, but they already have the key stuff that gets them playing. Giving those buffs to long term players is an insult to the new players that could really use them to get their karma armor. The first time I got out to Balthazar temple and cleared the risen from it, I was able to afford only one piece of karma armor. i could have used those buffs. Today? I have more karma than I know what to do with – these buffs are meaningless to me, but any new player who needs them and doesn’t have them will find them insulting – on the grounds that people who could actually benefit from the buffs, and in large ways… Those players don’t get them and can’t do anything to quickly remedy the disparity.

Second:

My complaint at WvW is targeted at similar-sequence types of buffs, except these affect gameplay – extra supply capacity. Extra siege capabilities and damage. Oh, I’m sure I can get more than 3 points a weekend (assuming the WvW cost doesn’t go up with levels) now that more WvW do sources have been added, but I still don’t get them for scouting out Zerg locations, reporting siege emplacements, or guarding a camp or tower against possible attack. All important roles, aye. But difficult for any game mechanic to reward.
Losing me to WvW means losing a commander pin (!) who loves underdog fights (!), who can read and predict enemy movements(!), force the enemy out of points we want to cap (!), who can and will defend points(!), guard yaks(!), flip camps (!), and make a long-term nuisance to the enemy. All vital things that can decide maps. But why am I gone from WvW?

People would sometimes complain over who was using siege or how. ‘No, the second treb (which I’d been manning alone for the past half hour and hitting the Stonemist Wall with) is still missing entirely, well to the left of the wall that’s half down! Point it more right!’ Yeah, people can be idiots, these were idiot-jerks, even before the WvW abilities were added. Now you’ve created a world where dedicated players have more raw capability than non-dedicated players. Skill takes back seat.. Groups will seek out players that have maxed arrow-cart abilities to man the carts, who have maxed supply capacity for havoc teams. Where they can and will yell at fellow teammates to leave maps, get off siege, or go elsewhere, all because they lack the WvW ability unlocks of other players. I care not for such disruptive things and simply chose to be elsewhere.

If PvE gains a structure that promotes the same thing? Grants functional bonuses that cannot be gathered in a weekend or two? Which promote disharmony among players?
If this comes to pass I will leave the game. I come to enjoy the game, not to be belittled by others, not to belittle others. If Guildwars2 becomes a game that promotes this behavior then I have no place in it.
//Portable Corpse

Whilst I understand the points you’re trying to make I think they are completely wrong, particularly your claims about WvW rank abilities.

I play a great deal of WvW and am in a large WvW guild that have played on European servers and now play on a T1 US server. I have yet to see a single person discriminate against someone based upon WvW rank abilities and if I did I would suspect they were an idiot or someone who had never entered WvW. Whilst I have seen people ask others if they will let them on to say an arrow cart or treb since they have maxed mastery this has always been done respectfully and without being forced on them, conversely I have also seen maxed rank people asked if they would swap off a piece of siege when they couldn’t hit the proverbial barn door in favour of someone without ranks who did know how to use them.

I have yet to see anyone asked to leave a border because they are low rank. I have on the other hand seen pug’s insulting high rank commanders who have put a lot of gold and time into WvW simply because they thought they knew better.

If your having these problems in WvW I suggest try a server where everyone isn’t stupid and inconsiderate.

As for changing achievement bonuses and giving them to new players instead I find this complaint bizarre. Would you also give them a ton of gold, exotics armour and weapons, ascended accessories and a legendary at character creation since they need these? The bonuses are rewards for what you have achieved. How exactly is this a slap in the face for a new player rather than something for them to strive for?

Point 1

GWAMM/MaxHoM here and I remember never getting a second look in that snob fest “Heroes Ascent”. No title, no play.

Fast forward to GW2 where only your opponents are clued in to your WvW experience and your “teammates” don’t know your prestige level but just have to accept you for your current actions.

Point 2
Newbie plays game, gains the karma, gold, badges, whatever to buy current gear as they go.

Gone and good riddance to the days of 4th level characters adding to the noise in “Spamadan” for a Docks Run to get max armor way before their level.

Your rant lacks much reality for the real GW1.

Nobody cares in WvW how many rank points you have or what gear you have or what level you have.

The only thing they care about is if you listen to the commander. Everything else is just fluff.

That would be a great guild name.

Unlevel Playingfield [RANT]

Honestly, what WvW Server are you on.. I’ve never seen or heard of any of the issues you are talking bout.. 1400 hours, 900+ of which are in WvW, hardcore WvW guild.

The only “uneven” part about WvW is a level 2 can have better stats than a fully geared 80..

Kaiem.8297:

Whilst I understand the points you’re trying to make I think they are completely wrong, particularly your claims about WvW rank abilities.

I play a great deal of WvW and am in a large WvW guild that have played on European servers and now play on a T1 US server. I have yet to see a single person discriminate against someone based upon WvW rank abilities and if I did I would suspect they were an idiot or someone who had never entered WvW. Whilst I have seen people ask others if they will let them on to say an arrow cart or treb since they have maxed mastery this has always been done respectfully and without being forced on them, conversely I have also seen maxed rank people asked if they would swap off a piece of siege when they couldn’t hit the proverbial barn door in favour of someone without ranks who did know how to use them.

I have yet to see anyone asked to leave a border because they are low rank. I have on the other hand seen pug’s insulting high rank commanders who have put a lot of gold and time into WvW simply because they thought they knew better.

If your having these problems in WvW I suggest try a server where everyone isn’t stupid and inconsiderate.

As for changing achievement bonuses and giving them to new players instead I find this complaint bizarre. Would you also give them a ton of gold, exotics armour and weapons, ascended accessories and a legendary at character creation since they need these? The bonuses are rewards for what you have achieved. How exactly is this a slap in the face for a new player rather than something for them to strive for?

but some commander got serious attitude issues lol. we need a Rep/review system for commanders.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

If Guild Wars 1 was half the game Guild Wars 2 is, more people might still be playing it.

Oh. Really. Last release for GW1 was EOTN, in 2007. For 4plus years, GW1 soldiered on with no added major content, making enough money to help fund the making of GW2. People bought GW1 knowing that there were no plans to expand it further, and still do. GW1 is still up and running, now 5 plus years with no expansion or campaign.

I think we all get that you hated GW1. Fine. But snotty statements like the one above are unjustified and petty. I cannot imagine very many MMOs, including this one, that could survive.. and still be running… 5 years after the last major content expansion and announcement that there would be no more.

You delight in bashing a game that was basically put on minimum life support to make this one, and then blame the game? If it was “half” the game this one is, it would have never survived, and yet, it did and does.

Quite honestly, I can imagine the number crunchers at ANET/NCsoft are praying that GW2 is half the game GW1 is in terms of customer loyalty and longevity.

Actually, Vayne quite frequently posts that he liked GW1, so you can’t make that accusation. He just ALSO likes GW2 and feels that in many ways they have improved on an already good formula. So saying this is ridiculous.

Also, his comment isn’t petty or snotty as you describe. It is, if you look at what he’s quoted, a direct response to another poster, inverting that poster’s comment. If anything, the original poster made the “snotty” comment, and Vayne turned it on his head, exactly to prove what a ridiculous comment it was to make.

So please read it again.

My comment was snotty? It’s an opinion, much like Vayne’s. Neither of our posts was snotty, they’re all just opinions. It wasn’t a ridiculous comment either. You read it again, and again, and again until you can understand it, because obviously you don’t, and you obviously didn’t play Guild Wars 1, so you’re opinion here is obsolete.

@Vayne I respect your opinion, but feel that Guild Wars 2 could’ve taken a lot more of the better aspects of Guild Wars 1. Tons of my friends that played GW1 tried GW2, and hated it with a passion. I realize that GW2 is different, but they seemed to have learned nothing about what worked in GW1 and didn’t incorporate any of the good stuff into GW2. That’s my friend’s and my opinion anyway.

@ OP, I find this way too confusing to follow.
Can you please boil this down to one paragraph or less?

ilr.9675:

@ OP, I find this way too confusing to follow.
Can you please boil this down to one paragraph or less?

So in summary….
I find these changes have made the WvW players uneven (not the playing field – that was never intended to be level), in such a way that will long term, be a detriment to that part of the game – players are, after all, only human. Smart humans, conniving humans, but humans all the same and they will unthinkingly insult each over over this. Now we’re insulting new players in an effort to appease current players, by giving long-term players things they don’t properly have a use for.

Good luck.

It’s not an uneven playing field if the way is open for you to achieve the exact same things others can.

You get back whatever you put into this game. If you don’t put any effort or time into it then you have yourself to blame.

Nobody cares about rank in WvW.

colesy.8490:

Nobody cares about rank in WvW.

Rank is new. Give it a year, prejudices will arise, initially among small new guilds that bill themselves as “Elite WvW Guilds”, and they’ll make much noise about it. They may take a page from the GW1 faction farmers handbook and require new members to post screenshots of their rank.

If I were to sumarize this as best I can:
Players who have played the game for months/years have stuff.
Players who have not played the game do not.
Giving players who have stuff more, simply for being in the game longer (specifically, the MF/GF/Karma/XP account buffs) is inherently biased toward existing players. This represents a bias against new players. Games should cater to new players, not against them. Long-term players already don’t have practical use for the buffs, I wouldn’t even notice it if they were set to 0 for me. I have found that games that have catered to long term players ahead of new players have almost without exception had other features that are even more are objectionable to me, so I’ve been careful to watch for this in games I consider playing and walk away from them before investing any time in them. My fear here is that these other features are on the way, and this is just a prelude.

For the WvW aspect, it’s not just one thing. its a whole suite of them that can’t be summarized in one paragraph, but the biggest among them are:

• I don’t want to catch myself making the decision “does someone else here have better abilities unlocked for this siege weapon than I do?” I only want to be making the decision: “Do I have the ability to effectively use this siege weapon in this scenario?”
• I don’t want to get caught up in the ‘who has the better unlocks for this’ or ‘best supply carry’ or other disputes. As players start to get towards maxing out single ability sets, those will happen.
• The ranks are tied to raw ability. Not skill, ability. These abilities are not easily earned, like or not players will realize this and behave accordingly. Sometimes intelligently, sometimes in selfish, arrogant, or prejudicial ways (Look at arrow-cart mastery’s final unlock and tell me honestly people won’t care about a given arrow-cart having that or not).
• I am not going to grind for years to max any ability. Guildwars allows you to max your level in days (hours, if you go at it in non-traditional ways) — it quickly devolves the game to one of skill and simple enjoyment of content. I seek out games like that, because they praise skill and not some form of entrenched elite-ism. These WvW abilities take years, making it a game of “Not about skill”, and one about elite-ism. I don’t play those games, because its impossible to not run into idiot-jerks, and I find myself unable to enjoy the game.

//Portable Corpse

yeah in a pvp arena what you really need is for all the players who have been around a long time to have stat and skill bonuses over the new people who don’t know the game at all

real good esport experience