Guild Wars 2

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Vol.7601:

You’re right, let’s just have everything in the game handed out for free or at vendor price and hope Anet someone ends up with millions of dollars in revenue from box sales to sustain itself

No one’s asking for that. Ok, I’ll amend that, reasonable people aren’t asking for that. We understand that the gem store is the primary source of income for the company, so obviously they need to actually sell things for real money in order to keep the lights on. However, it feels pretty kittenty to be told doing something is ok (like key farming) only to have them turn around a rather short period of time later, and yank the carpet out from under you. If keys do disappear from story rewards it’ll very much feel that way.

There is already the rising concern that they are nerfing all the means of making gold in the game to “encourage” more people to play via their credit card. This (as Zudet aptly demonstrates) will further encourage that line of thinking, which can only end badly for Anet.

This has less to do with Anet coming out and saying “key farming is no longer okay” and more to do with a revamp of content.

It’s no different than Anet saying that my farming guide of 15g/h back in May was totally fine and safe, but then they nerfed it through the megaserver. Yeah I’d like to blame Anet and say that they nerfed it because they didn’t like how I was making so much gold, but realistically they nerfed it because of the megaserver system.

BL weapon skins are going to get a lot more expensive and you may find it hard to buy the less popular ones. If Anet wants to encourage players to actually buy keys instead of farming them, they need to do a major overhaul of BL Chest rewards. For instance, why exactly do I want Revive orbs, essences of luck, and other trash? Give us good stuff so we don’t feel like we are being cheated out of our money. Also, ticket scrap and ticket drop rates need to be improved to keep the cost of weapon skins reasonable.

Oh, and while I’m on the subject, why is it that they put all these nice new armor and weapon skins behind a pay wall? I miss the days of GW1 where you had to actually earn cool rewards by playing the game. I understand they need to make money, but they also need to make the game feel rewarding to actually play.

ArenaNet-Please reconsider this change. Don’t level gate the personal Story ; Let us play the story as naturally as our characters CAN. Bit by bit. Its more challenging AND makes for some good group enjoyment underlevel.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Considering there really is no good way to obtain keys currently, if this does in fact remove them from story rewards, it’ll feel like an intentional slap in the face.

1. Pull out credit card
2. Open Gem store
3. Buy pack of Black Lion Keys

Keys are supposed to be their main source of RNG revenue… it was never intended for people to get them for free.

rolls eyes

The gemstore in general is the “main source” of revenue. I highly doubt keys are a main source within that. If they were, you’d see them adding kitten to the chests a heck of a lot more often. Instead we see more armors, weapons, outfits, minis, and dyes.

According to a lot of your posts, Zudet, the players aren’t intended to get anything for free. Stop with the money creep scares.

It isn’t a scare… it is a fact. The game continues to operate based on items bought from the gem store with real money. Since that is the only way they make money that is where most of the resources go.

In-game Weapons added since launch:
1. Ascended
2. Wintersday
3. Insect
4. Halloween
5. SAB

Gem Store weapons added since launch:
1. Scarlite
2. Wintersday
3. Halloween
4. Lovestruck
5. Phoenix
6. Leyline
7. Chaos
8. Zodiac
9. Jade
10. Torrment
11. Aetherized
12. Fused
13. Dreamthistle
14. Braham
15. Marjory
16. Kassmeer
17. Rox

That is just how the game functions. This change is inline with that function.

Jade where in game.
Scarlite where only in game.
In a lot of way the non named wepon skins are all in game because players can sell them if they want.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

Because it’s perfect business sense.

A game is not a business. Players can’t be seen as money source. Ofcourse they have to make money. But if they see the player only as a way to make money, the game isn’t any better as a F2P title from EA.

As much as EA has got hate over the years (and they’ve been good at restoring that gooodwill this past year), the sales figures show that it is working. Titles like Mass Effect 3 or Battlefield sold pretty well. The executives up top may not understand the game industry at the root level, but when they see that their actions/decisions have resulted in high sales $, why would shareholders ask for something different?

Either way, if you don’t like these changes, then vote for your wallet – just hope that the rest of the playerbase agrees with you and that you’re not swimming against the current.

Vol.7601:

Dusty Moon.4382:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Considering there really is no good way to obtain keys currently, if this does in fact remove them from story rewards, it’ll feel like an intentional slap in the face.

1. Pull out credit card
2. Open Gem store
3. Buy pack of Black Lion Keys

Keys are supposed to be their main source of RNG revenue… it was never intended for people to get them for free.

rolls eyes

The gemstore in general is the “main source” of revenue. I highly doubt keys are a main source within that. If they were, you’d see them adding kitten to the chests a heck of a lot more often. Instead we see more armors, weapons, outfits, minis, and dyes.

According to a lot of your posts, Zudet, the players aren’t intended to get anything for free. Stop with the money creep scares.

The ‘BOX’ is the main source of income as everyone who plays the game has to buy it. The CS is extra income not the primary income. No one has to buy anything from the CS to play this game.

The box is not the main source of income. You think a modern MMO company can sustain itself on a box fee, along with paying all the essential personnel involved in MMOs,

That is how a B2P game works – need to read up on your business models. If the CS was the main source, why you they have you pay for the box in the forst place. Also, GW1 hasn’t dropped much in price since it first came out.

Andred.1087:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

You’re right, let’s just have everything in the game handed out for free or at vendor price and hope Anet someone ends up with millions of dollars in revenue from box sales to sustain itself

I wonder why you don’t want to understand that they don’t have lock every new skin behind a paywall. Not to mention that they could’ve pushed for an expansion to get new money.

Expansions are out in the MMO world. They’re a thing of the past, and ANet is not going to make any for GW2. And are you forgetting the entire set of skins that got released in Dry Top? Maybe you don’t like them. I don’t really, either. They’re still not locked behind paywall.

Expansions are out? GW1 did perfectly well with them, many players want an expasion, many players that have already left wanted an expasion. Just because you say that expansions are out, doesn’t mean you’re right.
And yes, the new skins in Dry Top are free but locked behind huge RNG walls, as is any other free weapon skin, except the SAB ones.

Fenar.4025:

Oh, and while I’m on the subject, why is it that they put all these nice new armor and weapon skins behind a pay wall? I miss the days of GW1 where you had to actually earn cool rewards by playing the game. I understand they need to make money, but they also need to make the game feel rewarding to actually play.

agree. the ratio of skins earned in-game vs. gemstore should be close to 1:1.
i hope (and actually believe) the process to craft maudrey is a dry run for precursor crafting……or at the very least, for new prestige skins that hopefully extend beyond back packs.

only time will tell.

Jski.6180:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Considering there really is no good way to obtain keys currently, if this does in fact remove them from story rewards, it’ll feel like an intentional slap in the face.

1. Pull out credit card
2. Open Gem store
3. Buy pack of Black Lion Keys

Keys are supposed to be their main source of RNG revenue… it was never intended for people to get them for free.

rolls eyes

The gemstore in general is the “main source” of revenue. I highly doubt keys are a main source within that. If they were, you’d see them adding kitten to the chests a heck of a lot more often. Instead we see more armors, weapons, outfits, minis, and dyes.

According to a lot of your posts, Zudet, the players aren’t intended to get anything for free. Stop with the money creep scares.

It isn’t a scare… it is a fact. The game continues to operate based on items bought from the gem store with real money. Since that is the only way they make money that is where most of the resources go.

In-game Weapons added since launch:
1. Ascended
2. Wintersday
3. Insect
4. Halloween
5. SAB

Gem Store weapons added since launch:
1. Scarlite
2. Wintersday
3. Halloween
4. Lovestruck
5. Phoenix
6. Leyline
7. Chaos
8. Zodiac
9. Jade
10. Torrment
11. Aetherized
12. Fused
13. Dreamthistle
14. Braham
15. Marjory
16. Kassmeer
17. Rox

That is just how the game functions. This change is inline with that function.

Jade where in game.
Scarlite where only in game.
In a lot of way the non named wepon skins are all in game because players can sell them if they want.

Fused were in game as well…

Yes, Zudet has a point that most new armor and weapon sets become available though the store. However, that is simply in line with being a business. It is also in line with the promise that only cosmetic and convenience items would be sold from the store.They have to keep adding items that are popular to the store, otherwise nothing would sell. That’s why you see armors, weapons, minis, and dyes (which I’m pretty sure I already pointed out)

I got the same impression, but no point arguing about it until we actually see the changes firsthand. If giving out a key is still a level 10 story reward and there’s a way to game the system, you can be sure that people are going to figure it out.

And it’s not like it’s a thing where Anet is going to be like, “Oh, yeah, we don’t want to mess up your keyfarming. Let’s rethink this system.” Being fine with it and wanting it to be an option are two different things. So no point in making a big stink about it.

We’ll have plenty to pitchfork about when the time comes, if this does kill key farming and the BL weapons market goes through the roof.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

Because it’s perfect business sense.

A game is not a business. Players can’t be seen as money source. Ofcourse they have to make money. But if they see the player only as a way to make money, the game isn’t any better as a F2P title from EA.

Not sure if you fully understand what a business is. Players are customers. NCSoft/Anet are for-profit companies. Now if they were government owned entities that were created to ensure the wealth is shared evenly to eliminate social classes, then maybe you’ll have a point.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Andred.1087:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

You’re right, let’s just have everything in the game handed out for free or at vendor price and hope Anet someone ends up with millions of dollars in revenue from box sales to sustain itself

I wonder why you don’t want to understand that they don’t have lock every new skin behind a paywall. Not to mention that they could’ve pushed for an expansion to get new money.

Expansions are out in the MMO world. They’re a thing of the past, and ANet is not going to make any for GW2. And are you forgetting the entire set of skins that got released in Dry Top? Maybe you don’t like them. I don’t really, either. They’re still not locked behind paywall.

Expansions are out? GW1 did perfectly well with them

GW1 was 8 years ago. You have yet to present an argument that makes sense.

And by the way, it doesn’t matter what either of us think about expansions, ANet has already made very clear they are not making any for GW2, so I don’t know why people are still having this discussion.

Vol.7601:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

Because it’s perfect business sense.

A game is not a business. Players can’t be seen as money source. Ofcourse they have to make money. But if they see the player only as a way to make money, the game isn’t any better as a F2P title from EA.

As much as EA has got hate over the years (and they’ve been good at restoring that gooodwill this past year), the sales figures show that it is working. Titles like Mass Effect 3 or Battlefield sold pretty well. The executives up top may not understand the game industry at the root level, but when they see that their actions/decisions have resulted in high sales $, why would shareholders ask for something different?

Either way, if you don’t like these changes, then vote for your wallet – just hope that the rest of the playerbase agrees with you and that you’re not swimming against the current.

And that’s the flaw with your assumption. You’re seeing games like a businessman, as does EA. But the player doesn’t. EA can live with it’s bad reputation, it’s too big to fail. But ArenaNet isn’t. And if they don’t change their way of monetizing the game, I won’t buy any new title from ANet.

Vol.7601:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Vol.7601:

You’re right, let’s just have everything in the game handed out for free or at vendor price and hope Anet someone ends up with millions of dollars in revenue from box sales to sustain itself

No one’s asking for that. Ok, I’ll amend that, reasonable people aren’t asking for that. We understand that the gem store is the primary source of income for the company, so obviously they need to actually sell things for real money in order to keep the lights on. However, it feels pretty kittenty to be told doing something is ok (like key farming) only to have them turn around a rather short period of time later, and yank the carpet out from under you. If keys do disappear from story rewards it’ll very much feel that way.

There is already the rising concern that they are nerfing all the means of making gold in the game to “encourage” more people to play via their credit card. This (as Zudet aptly demonstrates) will further encourage that line of thinking, which can only end badly for Anet.

This has less to do with Anet coming out and saying “key farming is no longer okay” and more to do with a revamp of content.

It’s no different than Anet saying that my farming guide of 15g/h back in May was totally fine and safe, but then they nerfed it through the megaserver. Yeah I’d like to blame Anet and say that they nerfed it because they didn’t like how I was making so much gold, but realistically they nerfed it because of the megaserver system.

It all depends on whether or not they remove keys as a personal story reward. Revamping the content is fine. It kills the current farm sure, but it doesn’t punish everyone because people can still get keys. However, if they do remove the keys completely…that’s more the issue I’m looking at.

Andred.1087:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Andred.1087:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

You’re right, let’s just have everything in the game handed out for free or at vendor price and hope Anet someone ends up with millions of dollars in revenue from box sales to sustain itself

I wonder why you don’t want to understand that they don’t have lock every new skin behind a paywall. Not to mention that they could’ve pushed for an expansion to get new money.

Expansions are out in the MMO world. They’re a thing of the past, and ANet is not going to make any for GW2. And are you forgetting the entire set of skins that got released in Dry Top? Maybe you don’t like them. I don’t really, either. They’re still not locked behind paywall.

Expansions are out? GW1 did perfectly well with them

GW1 was 8 years ago. You have yet to present an argument that makes sense.

And who said that expansions are out? I for one only see complains about how the LS doesn’t do the trick.
And it doesn’t. I would rather pay for real content than getting this half-baked temporary content.

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

At this point people are getting entirely too worked up over this. I find some of the selfish reactions interesting. People are upset about farming keys, but overarching purpose of a new character for most people (especially new people) is to actually play the game and what they intend is to make this a better experience for the bulk of the people. Much like people complaining that champ trains were nerfed but in reality it was pretty much only the starter areas because of people being kittens when some new player killed one of the champs.

I doubt they’ll remove keys from the early game, otherwise how would new players be introduced to them?

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

And what a fair price? Atm a fair price is the cost of keys to a point that you would get from a set gem. In a lot of ways the skins are under price on the tp or you would simply see more ppl buy keys with gold to get these skins to make a profit. By removing these keys from the game you remove a major generation of skin there by making the price of skins go up. In a lot of ways keys keeps the price low on the tp to buy these skins with gold for the ppl who wants to use the skins. What your asking for is more from the point of view of the seller not the buyer.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Vol.7601:

Dusty Moon.4382:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Considering there really is no good way to obtain keys currently, if this does in fact remove them from story rewards, it’ll feel like an intentional slap in the face.

1. Pull out credit card
2. Open Gem store
3. Buy pack of Black Lion Keys

Keys are supposed to be their main source of RNG revenue… it was never intended for people to get them for free.

rolls eyes

The gemstore in general is the “main source” of revenue. I highly doubt keys are a main source within that. If they were, you’d see them adding kitten to the chests a heck of a lot more often. Instead we see more armors, weapons, outfits, minis, and dyes.

According to a lot of your posts, Zudet, the players aren’t intended to get anything for free. Stop with the money creep scares.

The ‘BOX’ is the main source of income as everyone who plays the game has to buy it. The CS is extra income not the primary income. No one has to buy anything from the CS to play this game.

The box is not the main source of income. You think a modern MMO company can sustain itself on a box fee, along with paying all the essential personnel involved in MMOs,

That is how a B2P game works – need to read up on your business models. If the CS was the main source, why you they have you pay for the box in the forst place. Also, GW1 hasn’t dropped much in price since it first came out.

Don’t take such a simplistic black-white view on game business models.

There is no other successful MMO out there that is strictly B2P with no cash shop.

Why is the CS the main source when you have to pay the box? Because unlike other B2P games, this is an MMO, where the developmental costs are way larger than your boxed FPS or RPG games.

Furthermore, they can do it because GW1 showed that this model is financially sound.

And if CS wasn’t the main source, then why do you think the boxed game has been markdowned multiple times, as low as 50%?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

Because it’s perfect business sense.

A game is not a business. Players can’t be seen as money source. Ofcourse they have to make money. But if they see the player only as a way to make money, the game isn’t any better as a F2P title from EA.

As much as EA has got hate over the years (and they’ve been good at restoring that gooodwill this past year), the sales figures show that it is working. Titles like Mass Effect 3 or Battlefield sold pretty well. The executives up top may not understand the game industry at the root level, but when they see that their actions/decisions have resulted in high sales $, why would shareholders ask for something different?

Either way, if you don’t like these changes, then vote for your wallet – just hope that the rest of the playerbase agrees with you and that you’re not swimming against the current.

And that’s the flaw with your assumption. You’re seeing games like a businessman, as does EA. But the player doesn’t. EA can live with it’s bad reputation, it’s too big to fail. But ArenaNet isn’t. And if they don’t change their way of monetizing the game, I won’t buy any new title from ANet.

Yes, I have a business/sales analytics background but that doesn’t mean that just because I present a viewpoint that doesn’t get discussed often (on this forum, for example) doesn’t mean I’m 100% blinded. I’m a gamer too, ya know. +4000 hours playing this game.

Auesis.7301:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Considering there really is no good way to obtain keys currently, if this does in fact remove them from story rewards, it’ll feel like an intentional slap in the face.

1. Pull out credit card
2. Open Gem store
3. Buy pack of Black Lion Keys

Keys are supposed to be their main source of RNG revenue… it was never intended for people to get them for free.

Except there have been multiple red posts in that past saying that keyfarming was perfectly okay.

Just because they say it’s “ok” does not mean they can’t change how easy it is to do it…..

They have to have been looking at the numbers being farmed and weighing those against the BL key sales. It was really just a matter of time before they made some changes to the current system.

Also, assuming this is the END of keyf arming is being a bit premature (but it being a “side effect” of the proposed changes would not surprise me).

BTW, Mass Effect 3 selling does not indicate EA is making progress on their PR image…..it just means there were enough hardcore ME fans that would put up with just about ANYTHING to play that last chapter. Honestly (as an ME fan), the game was superb up until the last 15 minutes….it is possible THAT issue was due to EA meddling but I doubt anyone outside of Bioware will ever know for sure.

I don’t mind the change if they would include a black weapon scrap in EVERY BLC. If you buy 50 keys, you really should be guaranteed a weapon skin. As it is, I do buy a few keys now and then if farming has got me close to 10 scraps. but if the farming goes, I lose all incentive to buy any keys.

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

I’m surprised there haven’t been class action lawsuits against gaming companies for some of the RNG stuff they put in cash shops. Why? Because it is essentially gambling that somehow escapes from any local, state, or national laws that would normally regulate that sort of thing. Maybe they need to move their servers to Indian Lands or put them on boats in international waters or something.

[edit]

Here is how I would revamp the current system and improve sales in the gem shop:

1. Remove BL Keys and Chests from the game. Seriously.
2. Sell BL Tickets directly in the gem store for some reasonable price.
3. Add a chance for BL ticket scraps and tickets to drop in game
4. Revamp pricing of all the boosters and other stuff you normally get from the chests. This stuff is not worthwhile to buy at current prices.

The past two announcements have left me in a sour mood so I’m just going to rant (and it will probably get lost in this thread anyway). I’ve pretty much hated all of these recently announced changes. I personally don’t believe these changes will make players want to stick around if they already weren’t invested into the game. That said, all of my characters and classes are maxed out at level 80 so I won’t ever see a bunch of these changes meant for “new players”. I feel like I’ve been shoved to the side yet again (I’m used to it already considering that I play WvW more than PvE). Leveling was already easy, maybe I’m missing something? Wow, I had no idea so many players got lost and confused that they needed their hands held. “Downed state is overwhelming”. What are you even babbling about lol?

Anyway, even though these changes never affected me, now indirectly I might be affected due to potentially losing the key farm. I regularly spend an insane amount of cash in the gem store but I’m not going to pay for a chance at getting a measly ticket scrap. Not every gem store item needs to be behind a pay wall. Good 2 years indeed. Going from Dress Wars 2 to China Wars 2 will be a sad day.

P.S. I realize I am overreacting, coming off as selfish, and that I’m making many assumptions. I still don’t care. This feature pack has been a good joke to me that I will laugh about when I’m standing around in LA wondering what color to use on my vanity tag.

barnabas j collins.2306:

I don’t mind the change if they would include a black weapon scrap in EVERY BLC. If you buy 50 keys, you really should be guaranteed a weapon skin. As it is, I do buy a few keys now and then if farming has got me close to 10 scraps. but if the farming goes, I lose all incentive to buy any keys.

I’ve been asking this for months.

If I had access to their sales $ I bet I could come up with projections that this would actually result in more revenue for them.

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

Corrosive to the game?
Chests and keys are an option. It’s not a requirement.
If you don’t like the system, don’t use it.
But trying to remove it? Don’t be rediculous.
Where would trading post listings come from if not the players whom have dedicated time, effort, and resources into farming up keys and getting these skins? Pfft. Remove keys. And who’s definition of ‘Reasonably priced’ are we going by? Sure. A-net could put some silly price in gold at the vendor or make a new way to get the tokens, but why would they? I like the key system. And if I want to roll the dice once in a while for a shot at a fortune, that’s my choice and doesn’t affect your game experience, right?

And even if they do take the storyline keys away. I’d say within a month there will be a potent gold farm that people will be using to make money to trade to gems and buy the keys. There are ways around everything. Not fast ways, but ways none the less.

Vol.7601:

barnabas j collins.2306:

I don’t mind the change if they would include a black weapon scrap in EVERY BLC. If you buy 50 keys, you really should be guaranteed a weapon skin. As it is, I do buy a few keys now and then if farming has got me close to 10 scraps. but if the farming goes, I lose all incentive to buy any keys.

I’ve been asking this for months.

If I had access to their sales $ I bet I could come up with projections that this would actually result in more revenue for them.

The unofficial, official average is 25 – 30 keys for a skin. I’ve gotten 10 scraps in 15 chests, and most recently had to open 82 chests for a skin. It’s all about luck.

Fenar.4025:

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

I’m surprised there haven’t been class action lawsuits against gaming companies for some of the RNG stuff they put in cash shops. Why? Because it is essentially gambling that somehow escapes from any local, state, or national laws that would normally regulate that sort of thing. Maybe they need to move their servers to Indian Lands or put them on boats in international waters or something.

Before you start going off on legal tangents, perhaps you should first understand laws and our legal system? You can’t file and win a lawsuit if what’s being done isn’t illegal. If you need further help, I can try to quote myself on a post I made on the subject of “lottery laws”.

I don’t understand how the change (unlock PS at lvl 10 -> BL key as reward) will make keyfarming harder, in fact, I believe it will make it easier. Roll a new character and use lvl up scroll or 9 tomes, then do the lvl 10 personal story instantly. You’ll be done in under 5 minutes. I have like 200 of those tomes in bank from all the PvPing. That’s a lot of keys.

Smirgel.9460:

I don’t understand how the change (unlock PS at lvl 10 -> BL key as reward) will make keyfarming harder, in fact, I believe it will make it easier. Roll a new character and use lvl up scroll or 9 tomes, then do the lvl 10 personal story instantly. You’ll be done in under 5 minutes. I have like 200 of those tomes in bank from all the PvPing. That’s a lot of keys.

you still have to do the whole story

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Fenar.4025:

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

I’m surprised there haven’t been class action lawsuits against gaming companies for some of the RNG stuff they put in cash shops. Why? Because it is essentially gambling that somehow escapes from any local, state, or national laws that would normally regulate that sort of thing. Maybe they need to move their servers to Indian Lands or put them on boats in international waters or something.

Before you start going off on legal tangents, perhaps you should first understand laws and our legal system? You can’t file and win a lawsuit if what’s being done isn’t illegal. If you need further help, I can try to quote myself on a post I made on the subject of “lottery laws”.

It’s something lawyers could argue about. There have been lots of business practices that were considered “legal” that ultimately ended up in court. In the insurance industry carriers will pay hidden bonuses to brokers for passing more business their way. This went on for years and years and years until major lawsuits were filed against carriers. The carriers lost.

Vol.7601:

Not sure why people are kittened at Anet. Key farming was here a lot longer than it was supposed to be. Anet was shooting themselves in the foot by having it in game for so long.

It’s about time we have weapon prices that are now in line with the risk of gambling on buying keys. It was a market inefficiency that had to be corrected.

If anybody else said it, i would agree. But not coming from you, sorry. You are richer then most people. You are more addicted to rare skins then most people. And you hardcore farm (wich kinda equals keyfarming in some ways – wanting best efficiency income). If you would give up all kinds of hardcore farming you are doing now, your response would be fair. (meaning every income that was substantially better then the average like blix farming, instantaneously nerfed). But it isn’t since you are hardcore farming Orr or something else atm, and you just can’t stand it, that other people got usefull stuff with keyfarming. And that’s the source of your post. Not anything else. And that’s dissapointing, using that as an argument. You just want your legendaries/personal skin to be more rare. And that’s a selfish thing. If devs would make a game around those incentives, it would quickly get toxic.

Anyhow i rarely keyfarmed. But having the option to do it sometimes was fun. Removing it, isn’t much fun. Especially having 4 scraps, it NOT fun. Because that means with inc nerfs, i will most certainly never ever find 6 more ticket scraps for a full ticket. So they essentially nerfed my existing 4 ones. Ah well chaos skins are ugly to me, and i got my stock of ley line skins.

AngelDiscarnate.5489:

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

Corrosive to the game?
Chests and keys are an option. It’s not a requirement.

Which wonderful argument. Everything in this game is “an option”, playing the game is an option. Getting a degree in RL to get a better job is an option. That doesn’t mean it’s ok to set up high hurdles for the average player to get them.
Locking almost all new skins behind a paywall in a game where the look is everything is the very definition of P2W. Getting new skins is an option. But why do you keep playing if your main goal in this game is locked behind a paywall?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Fenar.4025:

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

I’m surprised there haven’t been class action lawsuits against gaming companies for some of the RNG stuff they put in cash shops. Why? Because it is essentially gambling that somehow escapes from any local, state, or national laws that would normally regulate that sort of thing. Maybe they need to move their servers to Indian Lands or put them on boats in international waters or something.

Before you start going off on legal tangents, perhaps you should first understand laws and our legal system? You can’t file and win a lawsuit if what’s being done isn’t illegal. If you need further help, I can try to quote myself on a post I made on the subject of “lottery laws”.

furthermore, this type of gambling the DoJ (or whatever department handles gambling) doesn’t care because money is not changed both ways.

If Anet had some way to pay players based on the results of gambling on keys, then there would be a nissue.

Fenar.4025:

It’s something lawyers could argue about. There have been lots of business practices that were considered “legal” that ultimately ended up in court. In the insurance industry carriers will pay hidden bonuses to brokers for passing more business their way. This went on for years and years and years until major lawsuits were filed against carriers. The carriers lost.

The law has clearly defined points on what constitutes “illegal gambling”. RNG is not one of them, thus the federal government won’t act.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Locking almost all new skins behind a paywall in a game where the look is everything is the very definition of P2W.

P2W means Paying to Win. Having a cool look in game doesn’t win you anything except a costume contest, or perhaps some pride in your virtual avatar. Locking exclusive bonus stat items behind a paywall is P2W, because it gives you an advantage over other players. In any case, I’d still spend a lot of money on GW2 if it really were P2W.

Well, I foresee a couple possibilities.

1: They don’t bring in the (stupid kittening) system of not giving you any personal story until level 10.

2: They do bring in the above system.

In case 1, key runs may be threatened. The end of the first story arc may no longer reward a key (since they’re changing the rewards), and depending on how they do the weapon-skill-by-level, we’ll probably not have the #3 skills on GS and staff to speed stuff up.

In case 2, key runs will change drastically. Firstly, people will have to choose between using level tomes on their leveling alts or their grinders. Leveling grinders will probably be like the following:

-do human intro mission
-run up into DR, use portal to LA, then complete Rata sum, Grove, and another (black citadel? Hoelbrak?) for either trans charge or rare chance of key, hit a few tactical easy-to-do hearts, skill points and waypoints in one starting zone (will eventually be optimized) to reach level 10.

Vol.7601:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Fenar.4025:

Ohoni.6057:

Hopefully they will just remove Black Lion Keys from the game entirely. It’s a horrible gambling system that is corrosive to the game they’ve made. Just sell Black Lion weapons on the TP for a fair price and don’t force people to gamble for them.

I’m surprised there haven’t been class action lawsuits against gaming companies for some of the RNG stuff they put in cash shops. Why? Because it is essentially gambling that somehow escapes from any local, state, or national laws that would normally regulate that sort of thing. Maybe they need to move their servers to Indian Lands or put them on boats in international waters or something.

Before you start going off on legal tangents, perhaps you should first understand laws and our legal system? You can’t file and win a lawsuit if what’s being done isn’t illegal. If you need further help, I can try to quote myself on a post I made on the subject of “lottery laws”.

furthermore, this type of gambling the DoJ (or whatever department handles gambling) doesn’t care because money is not changed both ways.

If Anet had some way to pay players based on the results of gambling on keys, then there would be a nissue.

You might be right. But I think it’s actually worse that players have to pay real money to gamble for the chance to get virtual items. At least with real world gambling you have a chance to make back your money or make a profit.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

P2W means Paying to Win. Having a cool look in game doesn’t win you anything except a costume contest, or perhaps some pride in your virtual avatar. Locking exclusive bonus stat items behind a paywall is P2W, because it gives you an advantage over other players. In any case, I’d still spend a lot of money on GW2 if it really were P2W.

Having an ascended armor doesn’t win you anything either. But ANet said that the game resolves around the look more than around anything else. Getting skins is the “endgame” of GW2, and almost all new skins are locked behind a paywall. So if you want to succeed in this game like ANet has built it, you either have to get a tremendous amount of gold or pay.

key farming is broken, it’s only “not an exploit” or i should say not Considered an exploit because you get 2-3 lousy keys per hour.. the queensdale champ train needed to go, the frostgorge on the other hand i see no reason why level 80s can’t grind.. broken is broken, but there’s always going to be a discussion on “should we have this.” not to be the bearer of bad news, but if it hurts the develpers bottom line it’s probably going to take a hit at some point, because they’d rather you take out a second job than lavish your characters.. to be perfectly honest, i no longer grind without trepidation..    thanks arena net
-reroll part time job
-buy gems

And what a fair price? Atm a fair price is the cost of keys to a point that you would get from a set gem. In a lot of ways the skins are under price on the tp or you would simply see more ppl buy keys with gold to get these skins to make a profit. By removing these keys from the game you remove a major generation of skin there by making the price of skins go up. In a lot of ways keys keeps the price low on the tp to buy these skins with gold for the ppl who wants to use the skins. What your asking for is more from the point of view of the seller not the buyer

I think a fair price for one of these weapon skins would be in the 200-300 gem range perhaps. I think on average you might have to currently spend more on keys to get the item, but that is not how it should be. I have no problem paying ANet for the things I want, but the price should be reasonable, and there should be no gambling involved in real money trading.

I’m surprised there haven’t been class action lawsuits against gaming companies for some of the RNG stuff they put in cash shops. Why? Because it is essentially gambling that somehow escapes from any local, state, or national laws that would normally regulate that sort of thing. Maybe they need to move their servers to Indian Lands or put them on boats in international waters or something.

Exactly. I thin they get some sort of loophole because you’re gambling money for “not money,” but it’s still gambling.

Where would trading post listings come from if not the players whom have dedicated time, effort, and resources into farming up keys and getting these skins?

First, if you could just buy them straight on the gem store, you wouldn’t need TP listings for them as much. Second, since these items would appreciate over time (due to the changes in availability), players could still buy them when they’re cheap on the gem store and then TP them when their price has gone up, just as they do with holiday rewards. Third, I honestly don’t give a kitten what happens to the TP prices, so long as they are reasonably price to the players.

This is going to be another one of those topics where they could just come out and make a red post and lay it out and say “this is what it is and why” and squash it, and that would be that.

I don’t blame CMs or Devs wanting to talk about decisions that were made ‘because money’.

But they should make a marketing person, or whoever is responsible for ‘pushing the buttons that make us buy things’, come out as a red poster, and say, “Yeah, we let the developers say ‘key farming is ok’, but at the same time, ‘because money’, we made them get rid of the key we know you folks are farming. Now, key farming is ‘still’ ok, because there is a very slim chance you might get one in the world, so farm away, and enjoy! Or, give us money for chests and gamble for scraps…‘because money’”.

That’s a perfectly acceptable answer. They can give them login handles like “Chip McMarketing.9999” or “Gordon Gekko.9999” or “Bernie Madolf.9999”. And then the CMs and Devs wouldn’t have to talk about money, but when the ultimate answer to a question really is ‘because money’, we’ll know that’s the answer and we can either accept it or walk away.

Of course, they won’t do that either, because the psychologist they hired (TellMeAboutYourMother.9999), says that you can’t tell us about money, because then the jig is up.

I dunno. I’m still just patiently waiting around for them to announce some sort of “Q&A” forum where you can safely come and ask questions and get answers. I have like 3-4 questions I’d like answered. Some day.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Vol.7601:

Not sure why people are kittened at Anet. Key farming was here a lot longer than it was supposed to be. Anet was shooting themselves in the foot by having it in game for so long.

It’s about time we have weapon prices that are now in line with the risk of gambling on buying keys. It was a market inefficiency that had to be corrected.

If anybody else said it, i would agree. But not coming from you, sorry. You are richer then most people. You are more addicted to rare skins then most people. And you hardcore farm (wich kinda equals keyfarming in some ways – wanting best efficiency income). If you would give up all kinds of hardcore farming you are doing now, your response would be fair. (meaning every income that was substantially better then the average like blix farming, instantaneously nerfed). But it isn’t since you are hardcore farming Orr or something else atm, and you just can’t stand it, that other people got usefull stuff with keyfarming. And that’s the source of your post. Not anything else. And that’s dissapointing, using that as an argument. You just want your legendaries/personal skin to be more rare. And that’s a selfish thing. If devs would make a game around those incentives, it would quickly get toxic.

Anyhow i rarely keyfarmed. But having the option to do it sometimes was fun. Removing it, isn’t much fun. Especially having 4 scraps, it NOT fun. Because that means with inc nerfs, i will most certainly never ever find 6 more ticket scraps for a full ticket. So they essentially nerfed my existing 4 ones. Ah well chaos skins are ugly to me, and i got my stock of ley line skins.

I suppose it looks like I’m biased but I don’t think I’am.

The difference between me farming gold (which I haven’t done since megaservers btw) and farming keys is that there is an inefficiency in alternatives.

For example, between farming gold and buying gold from gem trade, both are viable alternatives

Between key farming and buying keys, the latter is not a viable alternative. It’s not viable because the price of a key is so high, and that you are more likely to end up paying more in gold value for the key than the skin you end up getting, which would average around 60g.

And so key farming has depressed the price of skins so much that key farming is now the only alternative to getting skins at a fair price.

Anet has also had lost revenue opportunities from those who would rather key farm than buy keys. The lower price of the skin on the TP also lowers the gold/gem rate to the disadvantage of Anet, although that calculation is a lot more complicated and it’s not 100% affected.

That’s fine with me. But BL keys themselves have to be a bit easier to find. I mean there’s a reason why people keyfarm.

“We’ve also taken this opportunity to go back and reevaluate the rewards of each of the major story chapters.”

Aww snap, they done took yo kitten.

Kind of a shame, really. I’ve got a bunch of level 20 scrolls to make keyrun characters with and no weekend available to get it done. =P

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vol.7601:

Because it’s perfect business sense.

A game is not a business. Players can’t be seen as money source. Ofcourse they have to make money. But if they see the player only as a way to make money, the game isn’t any better as a F2P title from EA.

A game is a business. Players are a money source. The birth of Pay for DLC made this happen, phone App games with in app percheses made this happen. EA just do it more more than others, and don’t try to hide it.

A lot of us aren’t surprised by this announcement at all, this is after all the “Chinese Feature Pack”. Me and most of my guildies have been stocking up on keys since we saw “a fresh new start” on the list of feature changes. It makes me pretty sad, considering farming keys was actually a pretty fun activity for me and my friends to run together. Also, unless they do something about scraps drop rate, BL skins are going through the roof.

Key farming was an interesting thing for me. From what I read it will no longer be possible to do the same way but I will wait until the actual release to be able to form an opinion.

Vol.7601:

Anet has also had lost revenue opportunities from those who would rather key farm than buy keys. The lower price of the skin on the TP also lowers the gold/gem rate to the disadvantage of Anet, although that calculation is a lot more complicated and it’s not 100% affected.

Maybe, just maybe, ANet would sell more keys of the chests wouldn’t be RNG based.
And maybe, just maybe, weapon skins should’t cost that much gold.

Vol.7601:

Anet has also had lost revenue opportunities from those who would rather key farm than buy keys. The lower price of the skin on the TP also lowers the gold/gem rate to the disadvantage of Anet, although that calculation is a lot more complicated and it’s not 100% affected.

This assumes that people who key farm would spend $ on keys in the absence of key farming.

And the less people who key farm will increase the price of the skins, which magnify the gem/gold trade rate and the # of gem/gold conversions