Guild Wars 2

What a necro. I don’t understand why you people even bring this up again. It’s clearly been abandoned by the devs. Let it sink.

Templar.4512:

What a necro. I don’t understand why you people even bring this up again. It’s clearly been abandoned by the devs. Let it sink.

Complacency gets you nowhere.

Carighan.6758:

Templar.4512:

What a necro. I don’t understand why you people even bring this up again. It’s clearly been abandoned by the devs. Let it sink.

Complacency gets you nowhere.

It never gets anyone anywhere, yet that’s what’s happening to the feedback threads.

2 Months is not really that old I think? Besides it’s going to take longer than 2 months to come up with some things that are an improvement over the horrible drops in GW2.

aspirine.6852:

2 Months is not really that old I think? Besides it’s going to take longer than 2 months to come up with some things that are an improvement over the horrible drops in GW2.

Two months is not a lot, yes. But two years is, and this has been going on for two years.
The bigger problem is that we shouldn’t even have worried about drops, since this shouldn’t have been a part of the game, at least the game in the “manifesto”. Same with raids.

Yet here we are, having threads about drops, RNG, and now even raids.

tigirius.9014:

So you have to ask yourself, which would you rather have?

Not sure why you are addressing the question to me. I don’t really care about the item rarity (the value of a skin to me is in how well they fit the planned look of my character, not in how hard they are to obtain). I was simply pointing out to Carighan, that a system that reduces negative RNG factors in the form of outlier/“bad luck” accounts doesn’t need to result in everything becoming common, and eliminating rarity.

Kalendraf.9521:

There’s a right place and wrong place to use RNG. The modified RNG method sounds intriguing, but it may not be the correct solution for everything. Here is a repost about RNG I previously had made on the gw2guru site which seem applicable toward this discussion:

There isn’t necessarily a one size fits all approach for this. The main issue with RNG often relates to it’s magnitude and frequency. For example, depending on the nature of the game, here are situations where RNG might be ok versus ones that are definitely not ok (ranges are intended as examples):

A ) Check occurs often, chance of success is relatively high (30% or more) = perfect place to use normal RNG
B ) Check occurs often, chance of success is moderate (10% to 30%) = RNG is probably ok, but alternative approach could be considered for fairness.
C ) Check occurs often, chance is low (1% to 10%) = RNG might be ok, but an alternative approach is likely better.
D ) Check occurs often, chance is miniscule (below 1%) = RNG should not be considered. An alternative method should be used instead.

E ) Check occurs infrequently, chance of success is relatively high (30% or more) = RNG is probably ok, but alternative approach should be considered if check occurs only at very long intervals.
F ) Check occurs infrequently, chance of success is moderate (10% to 30%) = RNG might be ok, but an alternative approach should probably be used instead for fairness.
G ) Check occurs infrequently, chance is low (1% to 10%) = RNG should not be considered, and an alternative method should be used instead
H ) Check occurs infrequently, chance is miniscule (below 1%) = This combination should be avoided entirely! For fairness, the game mechanics should not permit combinations where a chance is too low with infrequent checks.

Note – my definition here of often vs. infrequent are intentionally vague. For a general idea, “often” would be a check that occurs many times per hour in the course of normal gameplay. Infrequent would be something that occurs very rarely, or requires significant time or resource expenditure by the player to make it occur.

How do those relate to GW2? The following are intended as examples and the exact percentages may not fit the example ranges listed above:
A ) Chance of landing a critical hit (depending on build of course). Perfect place for RNG
B ) Chance of a mob dropping a random item (of any type). Other RNG could determine the specific type of item.
C ) Chance of a node producing a special item when harvested. For example, getting a gem while mining an ore node.
D ) Chance of a lockpick from piles of silky sand (often category might be a stretch here – is based on a player participating continually in DryTop events)
E ) Chance of getting at least 1 ecto while salvaging a rare with a mystic kit.
F ) Chance of a Black Lion Chest producing a scrap
G ) Chance of Mystic Forge producing something useful (exotic with rare skin, valuable rune/sigil)
H ) Chance of Mystic Forge producing a precursor

Now this is good feedback. Great approach, now the only question left is “what should the alternative method be?”

Firstly, thank you John for initiating this discussion. I for one really appreciate it and I am sorry I missed it the first time round. I feel it is a topic that is worth talking about and I am glad to see the devs are discussion the concept.

I see you have not posted in a month, so I hope you have not been put off discussing this by those unconstructive few. Ignoring the unconstructive and focusing on the constructive will ensure we can continue having a good discussion.

Now to the topic at hand. I personally would opt for a hybrid system. Have rare loot attached to the RNG system, but have some kind of counter measure in place to ensure a player is not left without rare drops for too long. So long as the balance is right, you should get the best of both worlds and reduce the negatives of both systems as well.

Having too much RNG will really punish those cursed with bad luck and provide a massively unfair advantage for those blessed with good luck.

Having little to no RNG can result in a game that, for some, gets boring very quickly and lacks that element of surprise and joy at getting that ultra rare loot.

At the end of the day, that ultra rare drop you got wasn’t gained through some epic fight, or some long journey you had undertaken. It was gained through pure luck. And as luck (in real life) is an uncontrollable force and, for those afflicted with bad luck, is not a fun force to play with, I really feel a game’s systems should make an effort in keeping this force in check and ensuring no one individual suffers too much from it, or gains too much advantage.

Having an uncontrolled RNG system might be ok for the majority of players, but I still feel steps should be taken to ensure it is fun for everyone, eventually. For the most part I think GW2 has a fairly good balance, but the perception of the system is corrupt. We feel angry when we don’t get a precursor, because we feel the drop rate is too harsh, yet we are able to buy one from the TP. And neither lucky nor bought precursors feel particularly epic, so many players feel the RNG system is ruining this aspect of the game.

So really, the concept of an RNG system should not just be about how it works, but also how it is perceived.

Anyway, I hope that input was useful, and I hope you (Anet) have not given up on this conversation.

System 1 looks good if you can manipulate the system so as to really remove outliers (not just decrease them, which would still leave some unhappy outliers). In my opinion, a proper system 1 should be akin to system 2.5 with the following specifics:
- the “tokens” are hidden
- the “tokens” are reset after each “big drop” randomly accuring (they are meant as a worst case, not to improve loot rates for players who are already lucky)
- once enough “tokens” are acquired because a long time was spent playing without being lucky, the system throws a guaranted “big drop”, but the player don’t get to chose what => akin to any already occuring “lucky big drop”. If the item is not wanted, it goes to the TP to buy the desired “big drop” in exchange.

If such conditions are met, I think system 1 is superior to system 2.5 as it improves the already existing experience for less lucky players without actually changing the whole experience.

Otherwise, I would favor system 2.5 as long as the tokens allow for choosing your reward (i.e. at best the precursor of your choice, or at worst a “chest of precursor” with a random precursor inside. The former could help in reducing precursor price discrepencies, while the former would be more fair toward all players [i.e. a random precursor for everybody, lucky or not] [taking precursors as example here since they are the (lack of) drops that cause the most (un)happiness concerning RNG])

In any case, I don’t think system 2 is a proper solution as it just introduces more chances of RNG failure ("You have been unlucky, here are some chances to turn the tide…. No chance, looks like you are REALLY unlucky !!!).

Templar.4512:

Carighan.6758:

Templar.4512:

What a necro. I don’t understand why you people even bring this up again. It’s clearly been abandoned by the devs. Let it sink.

Complacency gets you nowhere.

It never gets anyone anywhere, yet that’s what’s happening to the feedback threads.

I think in this case I’m going to try and keep it going, even if I have to bump it, purely so it stays near the top as an irritant to Anet. Players will likely never change Anets mind on RNG, and in fact I think this thread was likely started as an amusement to the devs, but we need to keep this up just like the Cantha thread.
Of course, Anet will step in with their god-power and simply lock it when they are tired of seeing it.

It was started by John Smith as an offshoot of a discussion in another thread in the Black Lion Trading Post forum. When they closed that forum it got moved to General Discussion, not sure what happened to the original thread. JS was pretty active in “his” forum but not sure if he can keep up with BLTP related posts in general, it moves a lot faster.

The more I think about it the more I think a solution is untenable. ArenaNet’s real life economy is tied intrinsically to the game economy. If it doesn’t have to cross the player’s mind to hit the, “GET MORE GOLD” button at the top left of the BLTC page then how much real life money does ArenaNet stand to lose?

I think the number 1 RNG-based concern of the community is precursors. People that actually want a Legendary weapon have a valid gripe with the current implementation of acquisition. That’s why the only real solution for both sides is to give players that actually want a specific Legendary weapon a way to acquire an account bound version of a precursor so they can make an account bound version of the Legendary. That still keeps the BUY MORE GOLD button viable and it also gives the players a meaningful way to play the game and get a precursor.

With this specific concern of the economy in regards to RNG and game content, a solution is so long overdue. Zero action has been taken on this front in years and it’s a huge frustration that they haven’t taken any action to get something like this in the game. They may well have discussed hundreds of different solutions to do this, but nothing has made it in the game and I think that is because they are making so much money off of players that see it as easier and less a headache to just buy gold with real money and then make the Legendary. ArenaNet makes a tidy sum and the player has their shiny object.

Every time I have this thought, I realize that my Fractal weapons mean more to me in game than my Rodgort does even though I spent more time on my Rodgort. Why do I feel that way? Because any player can just buy Rodgort with real life money. The same can’t be said for Fractal Weapons. You have to play Fractals to get them and RNG is required. Frankly, it sucks but that is the only weapon set I can think of in game where someone sees it and knows exactly what had to take place and there is a certain prestige to the weapons for me personally with Fractal Weapons that doesn’t exist with Legendaries.

Astralporing.1957:

tigirius.9014:

So you have to ask yourself, which would you rather have?

Not sure why you are addressing the question to me. I don’t really care about the item rarity (the value of a skin to me is in how well they fit the planned look of my character, not in how hard they are to obtain). I was simply pointing out to Carighan, that a system that reduces negative RNG factors in the form of outlier/“bad luck” accounts doesn’t need to result in everything becoming common, and eliminating rarity.

I actually wasn’t addressing it to you I was addressing it to John.

We’ve sat here for 2 years now watching everything in the economy rise in price, watching the game become a TP centric mess and we’re still not seeing any significant changes to how rewards are handled. It’s sad really especially since so many people have given ample examples on exactly what TO do it should be obvious really.

Iason Evan.3806:

The more I think about it the more I think a solution is untenable. ArenaNet’s real life economy is tied intrinsically to the game economy. If it doesn’t have to cross the player’s mind to hit the, “GET MORE GOLD” button at the top left of the BLTC page then how much real life money does ArenaNet stand to lose.

Actually it is…. Several titles have completely revamped their system and have found other ways of making money without killing their games and Anet can too. If they really wanted to this game would have multiple ways of getting the resources needed for example to build Ascended gear, or multiple ways of getting full sets of said gear. It would have multiple ways of getting rewards while out in Tyria, meaningful rewards like gold, items to sell for gold, items to buy from karma vendors that actually help with progression, items to collect to build other items that aren’t restricted behind yet another RNG (I’m speaking of course of the collections they DID finally add that were like that, you get almost all of the items for something as simple as a new bag and boom you have to contend with yet another RNG by going to look for chests to see if the last item drops.) smh I did that for 3 weeks without success until finally I just uninstalled the game. It’s not fun to have to deal with an account that’s consistantly not obtaining anything.

Another discussion that has run its’ course. More than enough feedback for Anet to chime in and provide real feedback (not thanks for the input, it will be passed on).

One thing that’s bothersome about all the feedback is that the overwhelming majority can’t stand it in it’s current form. But yet the devs continue to implement it as is. The current extremely rare drops for the wintersday tonics is just the latest implementation. Why they continue to do this when everyone hates it is beyond me. I can understand some RNG is necessary but anet takes it to a new level.

Another one that kittenes me off is that I’m at 43 in fractals and I have only one fractal skin to show for it due to the extremely low drop rate. And I have zero ability to acquire them otherwise. Not to mention precursors, gambling boxes, mordrem parts, etc. I’ll throw money at them if they put in fun mechanics to acquire these items!

In it’s current form the RNG system leads me to believe rationally or irrationally that my account is cursed with bad luck. I’ve never had a valuable drop from the forge or loot since beta. While Anet can I’m sure look at the macro statistics and justify the results of their system and it’s “impartiality” from my perspective as a player, it’s a horribly unfair system.

I have friends who’ve quit the game permanently and I’ve taken extended breaks due to the game’s lack of satisfying loot, and the feeling that I’m being punished in some way by the system. MMOs are all about loot and this system is the worst I’ve played.

First off, I stumbled across this blog post about the GW2 economy and loot, and think it would be a good addition to this discussion.

Alright, onto my contribution. I am of the mind that number 2.5 is the way to go. With this system, I believe the game would be still accessible to the “Hardcore” players, who are willing to spend hours and hours playing the RNG of certain events/mystic toilet to get what they want, while also being more accessible to the “Casual” players, who would now have a guaranteed, albeit slower, method of getting the same loot, and wouldn’t feel like they had to grind the RNG, or grind gold to circumvent the RNG through the Trading Post.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t GW1 have a little bit of number 1? I remember that drop rates (of dyes, runes, etc.) were adjusted based on their relative prices in the merchants. I don’t know if this was done manually or by adjusting a NRNG, but it seems to have worked fairly well in any case. I don’t remember seeing too many complaints about the economy, at least not on the scale of GW2.

Finally, it does this 7-year GW veteran’s heart good to see ANet talking with the community about stuff like this. Too much silence lately. Thank you John!

edit: number 1, not 2

John Smith.4610:

-snip-

[Theorietical Solutions]

1. Use a specifically non-random NG. The NRNG functions similarly to a RNG, but has characteristics that either squish the distribution so that outliers exist much less or specifically manipulate a player’s experience for loot in a more complicated way that makes it feel rewarding.

2. Implement measures that counteract low-end outlier behavior inside of game design. This would be a system that is something like: If player hasn’t received a rare drop in X time send them Y tickets for random drops.

2.5: “Add secondary reward mechanisms (ie. token based system) alongside the primary RNG system; allow progress to be made even when you don’t get the result you want.”

Obviously these are hyper-simplified descriptions, but I don’t want this to get too long.

edit: added 2.5

I am sure one can come up with better solutions than these 3 John. Off the top of my head there’s one solution similar to nr. 2 here, but less gimmicky (not outright saying “you have had bad luck lately; here’s a band-aid”).

3. RNG feedback. a.k.a. RNG “karma”. Whenever a player rolls >0.01 (or whatever is the “rare” threshold), i.e. whenever the player doesn’t get the rare, the player builds “invisible” karma, when this karma reaches a threshold the next RNG roll by a player is a guaranteed win, and the karma resets. The karma threshold or the karma amount given on each non-winning roll should be related to the magic find of the player to accurately mirror the player’s “luck”.

This solution is invisible and so the player is unaware of when they are actually lucky or when they are given a 100% win chance.

RNG in games using a bell curve or any curve with tails will by design have extremes with an amount of players either winning more than everyone else and others losing more than everyone else. The solution I presented aims to feed the losing players back into the body of the curve. Thus the solution requires that the amount of karma awarded per non-winning throw and the threshold be carefully set so as not to completely negate the RNG.

Similarly a “negative” karma approach can be taken to prevent “extremely” lucky players.

Mind that such approaches will not “flatten” out the rewards. Instead it will make sure that the same player doesn’t stay long in one of the tails of the curve used. You want to feed these extremely lucky or unlucky players back into the body of the curve keeping a constant movement of players between the extremes.

This ensures that no player feels “unlucky” over the long haul, but instead might feel “unlucky” for a period of play then “extremely lucky” for another.

When is a dev going to get back about RNG?

John Smith.4610:

This game has gotten better and better and better and it’s going to be better and better and better than it is now.

To be fair there is no more factual backing for this statement than for his.

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

John Smith.4610:

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

With that in mind, it occurs to me to ask for a layman’s idea of what the requirements of a solution you’d deem ideal would generally be.

What does it need to accomplish beyond the obvious functions of being an RNG at all? Are there specific interdependencies that an RNG system, by its functions, must be able to operate in the parameters of?

From another angle, what sorts of ideas are just plain out, and what general directions would we best be suited to brainstorm in?

Ashen.2907:

John Smith.4610:

This game has gotten better and better and better and it’s going to be better and better and better than it is now.

To be fair there is no more factual backing for this statement than for his.

To be fair, you’re quoting selectively. The statement you’re quoting was prefaced with the phrase “I firmly believe”, indicating the statement was opinion rather than fact.

Astraea.6075:

Ashen.2907:

John Smith.4610:

This game has gotten better and better and better and it’s going to be better and better and better than it is now.

To be fair there is no more factual backing for this statement than for his.

To be fair, you’re quoting selectively. The statement you’re quoting was prefaced with the phrase “I firmly believe”, indicating the statement was opinion rather than fact.

Do you mean that part that John edited in response to my post (and said as much in a subsequent post) ?

Hi,

pls don´t be angry with me, cause my english is not very good. But i want to say a few words concerning RNG.

Before i started playing gw 1 month ago i was playing TERA for a long time. In this game everything was based on rng… even the shop. If you wanted to have some itmes for pimping your gear, or special runes, or even nice mounts or skins you always had to pray to the god of rng – and he was bad tempered… ALWAYS! The chances of good rng were so low that you can think about calling it criminal way to melk the gamers…. the final reason i left this game after years of becoming worse and worse.

Cause i´m very new to gw i don´t know exactly in wich ways the content of gw depends on rng. The only great rng-thing i have seen so far are the precursor. Ascended boxes seems to be rng too, but hey … you can craft this gear and you can´t trade it… so even if you are lucky with these boxes … you can make no profit.
Then there are some rng-based drops like the new skins in sw i guess. But this is not an overpowered gear or in any way necessary to enjoy the whole content… so it is ok for me.
If there are any other big rng-based things i haven´t had any contact with it so far.

In my opionion any kind of farming or getting marks to elinimate rng and make it a question of grind will be the wrong way.
As i said for me it seems like rng did not decide about your chances to clear all content or to get any overpowered gear… and even having tons of gold doesn´t seem to give you any hard advantage in gw….. that is great!
So if we are only talking about precursors maybe you can add in addition to rng 1 not rng based way to get at least 1 of them and make sad players happy. Maybe by reaching a certain number of successpoints or completing A LOT of content (similar to making map 100%), or grinding a lot of certain mobs / worldbosses / events etc.

It is only my opinion… but as long as rng didn´t cap your opportunity to take part in the whole content of gw rng is absolutly ok.

Thanks for reading and sorry for bad english. And sorry if i don´t see the whole problem after my short time of playing gw.

Is this RNG discussion based solely upon obtaining one item in the game, i.e. the precursor?

Thanks for the posts John.
Being one of those outliers that have extremly bad luck, I would hope the system would start to check the players drop record and change the % according to what has been dropped. (sorry- will bring up precusors in my case) 2973 hrs over 849——nothing.
Someone else 2, 3 or more drops during their first weeks of play or using the forge.. The system should lower the chance (even to 0 chance for a while)for those with consistent good luck and slowly increase chances for those outliers like myself (even to 100% after 2yrs + with nothing). And apply it exotics as well.

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Wanze.8410:

Wouldn’t streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

I get the impression they would, unless (dreaded) time-gating was used. Simple fact that those with more time to play and money to burn get more odds in the giant RNG lottery.

Though, that interpretation orients more around magic-find and tradeable items. I’d suspect that token-based rewards would be more account bound, which should keep them out of the general marketplace (salvageability somewhat excluded).

Rauderi.8706:

Simple fact that those with more time to play and money to burn get more odds in the giant RNG lottery.

In it’s current state, GW2 is a game for the RL monetarily wealthy. In most cases there are only two ways to really obtain what you want in this game. Pay cash and convert gems to gold, or grind your brains out (which implies that you are quite wealthy in regards to time).

John Smith.4610:

Stark.1350:

Is this RNG discussion based solely upon obtaining one item in the game, i.e. the precursor?

It shouldn’t be. We shouldn’t be discussing rewards or items specifically, we should be discussing systems as a whole.

I’ve played the game since release, without breaks. I’ve led a massive guild. I’ve participated in just about everything the game has to offer.

I can’t think of an instance in this game where RNG has a major affect on anything, save for what you might get out of black lion chest or a dye pack – in that instance, a free to play game has to use it to make money, or at least more than just offering straight up dyes for sale.

The only complaint I’ve ever heard in reference to RNG is the precursor hunt, which I’ve always found somewhat obnoxious anyway. I’ve always viewed a legendary as a long term goal and if people treated it as such, there’d be a lot less complaints about it. It’s actually really easy to make money in this game and buy your precursor outright and I’m not talking about flipping the trading post. Unfortunately in this now-now-now-me-me-me generation, that hardly seems plausible anymore.

In regards to a system as a whole, I see how it’s necessary for this game.

I think that a wealth divide between, “Veteran/Hardcore.” and, “New/Casual,” players is all but inevitable.

Its not as simple as X amount of wealth per hour played either (V/H plays 10 hours per day, N/C plays 1 hour per day, so V/H accumulates wealth at a rate ten times that of N/C).

The V/H player’s per hour rate will likely be greater as well. I dont see how anything other than time gating could address this. On the other hand I don’t necessarily believe that it needs to be addressed. A casual player does not necessarily need to be in the top percentiles of wealth control in the game in order to enjoy it, continue to funnel money into it, etc. He probably will want to be able to get the nice shiny <whatever> without feeling as if he needs to grind ten hours a day for the next several years though.

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Well ideally a streakbreaker wouldn’t shift the mean by all that much if it only impacted those who are outside of say the two sigma “unlucky” end of the tail. The idea is to only implement it for the ultra rare drops.

Someone fairly recently wrote a blog post on this very subject. I don;t think its been posted here, if it has I apologise but its a very good analysis of the issues with GW2 reward systems:

https://toughlovecritic.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/the-gold-standard-why-loot-sucks-in-gw2-and-ways-to-fix-it/

Playing the lottery is only fun if you win something, sometimes. With Guild Wars 2, there is definitely a lack of excitement when it comes to loot drops. Getting something ‘cool’ is often so rare to the point that it loses that appealing aspect that is often prevalent in MMOs.

If I go kill 50, 100, 150 mobs and get nothing but a few scrap drops that are worth nothing more than salvage material, it’s kind of disappointing. I don’t think that going to the extremes like the Diablo series really fits this game, however there is something to be gained from glancing at how they accomplish addiction level play by a game that centers purely around its loot system.

It follows similar concepts to the lottery. Your odds of getting something incredibly awesome are slim, and you might play for months before you see it drop, but in the mean time you’re given plenty of GOOD, and EXCITING rewards that keep you trying for that next step up.

In GW2 this is much harder to accomplish because there is a lack of RNG in stats, so once you get the equipment with the stats you want, there’s nothing better. That leaves the only driving force behind gear farming to be ascended which you only need if you’re running high level fractals, or appearance.

In the case of the latter, your odds of finding the gear you want with the appearance you want are so slim to none, that you’re better off just buying it off the trade post than holding your breath for 6+ months and grinding trying to win the lottery.

As far as personal and individual experience goes, the optimal experience would be tuning the drop rate so you should average out at getting a drop once a hour. Much more than that and you lose the carrot. Less than that, and carrots get stale.

The idea of tokens, or a currency based reward for the items already exists. Gold. You farm, you don’t get a drop, but you still often get gold either by selling crafting mats, or just outright gold. You can turn around and use that to buy just about any item you were hoping to get off the trade post. So in that, I feel that at least for the PVE side of things, adding another currency would be redundant. It also wouldn’t add the same level of excitement that actually FINDING a cool item would.

Sondergaard.8469:

The idea of tokens, or a currency based reward for the items already exists. Gold. You farm, you don’t get a drop, but you still often get gold either by selling crafting mats, or just outright gold.

You really don’t get it do you? You do not grasp the concept that farming gold to buy something cheapens the entire goal. Farming gold to buy components for your legendary cheapens the thrill of the ride.

Ashen.2907:

I think that a wealth divide between, “Veteran/Hardcore.” and, “New/Casual,” players is all but inevitable.

Its not as simple as X amount of wealth per hour played either (V/H plays 10 hours per day, N/C plays 1 hour per day, so V/H accumulates wealth at a rate ten times that of N/C).

The V/H player’s per hour rate will likely be greater as well. I dont see how anything other than time gating could address this. On the other hand I don’t necessarily believe that it needs to be addressed. A casual player does not necessarily need to be in the top percentiles of wealth control in the game in order to enjoy it, continue to funnel money into it, etc. He probably will want to be able to get the nice shiny <whatever> without feeling as if he needs to grind ten hours a day for the next several years though.

Well, a good way to counter that is make more rewards account bound. Items that you just need once per account (skins, minis tonics, recipes etc.) will become worthless as a reward to the hc player so it wont add to the wealth disparity between the hc player and the casual, who eventually will also obtain said reward, even though he needs 10 days instead of 1.
That However results in boredom for the hc player because he runs out of content to play for good rewards pretty quick.

i think one problem with the RNG, is also that new loot is not really added to the general loot tables (not just zone specific tables). more specifically: when new stat combos are introduced (like sinister or zealots) those stat combos are not added to the existing loot tables for armour and weapons. only the recipes are added to the loot tables. (imo, the new stat combo recipes should be added to the crafting vendors, just like the original stat combo recipes.)

now, all the original stat combos are available through dungeon token barter, or from loot drops from kills and chests, or from karma vendors, or from crafting or from badge of honor vendors or from the trading post or in some cases, guild commendations. an exotic berzerker’s axe for example, could be obtained through any / all of the means.

the new stats, like sinister, are only available through crafting, and typically is time gated via daily charged quartz limit, or by requiring 6000 watchwork sprockets compared to 50 vials of powerful blood for one of the original stat combo sets.

there is a great disparity here. ALL exotic gear needs to be available by the same means, for all stat combos, at comparable amounts of time and effort.

if new stat exotic armour / weapons were added to the loot tables, this would alleviate some of the RNG issues (namely, that only precursors are worth anything and everything else is trash / unusable)

as for the RNG system itself… as long as there are alternative means of acquiring the loot i want, (like for exotic berzeker’s armour) for everything in the game, then i’ll forgive the shortcomings of RNG. but if RNG is the ONLY way to acquire the loot, then i won’t forgive the shortcomings of the RNG.

summary:
new stat combo gear is not treated like the original gear, and needs to be added to all the loot tables and vendors exactly the same way all the original gear / recipes already are. new exotic gear recipes also need to be reworked to require the same time / material efforts as the original exotic stat combos.

PS the new stats also need to be added to the ascended gear vendors as well, and added to the general loot tables as well.

tigirius.9014:

That’s what I mean when I say fun and that’s exactly what I expected this game to have, it’s own versions of course. I can recall the talks in interviews about how they carved out special nooks and crannies all throughout Tyria to have special hidden places so that the players would feel rewarded when they went to those places.

Well, I assume that they were talking about story, not loot. Most of those special hidden places don’t even have chests so I’m not sure I would expect to get loot from them. And I do love those places and finding the stories there.

But I do agree that they need to ease up. Perhaps Legendaries should remain very rare, but Ascended and other nice things don’t need to be so rare.

Stark.1350:

John Smith.4610:

Stark.1350:

Is this RNG discussion based solely upon obtaining one item in the game, i.e. the precursor?

It shouldn’t be. We shouldn’t be discussing rewards or items specifically, we should be discussing systems as a whole.

I’ve played the game since release, without breaks. I’ve led a massive guild. I’ve participated in just about everything the game has to offer.

I can’t think of an instance in this game where RNG has a major affect on anything, save for what you might get out of black lion chest or a dye pack – in that instance, a free to play game has to use it to make money, or at least more than just offering straight up dyes for sale.

The only complaint I’ve ever heard in reference to RNG is the precursor hunt, which I’ve always found somewhat obnoxious anyway. I’ve always viewed a legendary as a long term goal and if people treated it as such, there’d be a lot less complaints about it. It’s actually really easy to make money in this game and buy your precursor outright and I’m not talking about flipping the trading post. Unfortunately in this now-now-now-me-me-me generation, that hardly seems plausible anymore.

In regards to a system as a whole, I see how it’s necessary for this game.

I agree with everything you’ve said here. I actually like rng in this game. Not to mention everything in this game is so easy to obtain, from best weapons, best armors, jewels, tones of awesome skins…. Everything is handed on silver plate.
Even legendary is not 100% rng, after all you can purchase precursor.
Lots of people also enjoy acting like some crybaby victims. I played almost 6k hours, never got precursor as drop, or from mystic forge. That didn’t stop me from making few legendaries. You either roll up your sleeves and get to farm, or open your wallet and support anet in that way. If none of these are option for you, well there are plenty of other cheaper skins, and after all its just some skin in a game.

I also love how hard is to obtain this new lumi set. This is one of those rare things, because every other armor in game is super easy to obtain. So there comes one skin that is a bit hard to get. There is some rng involved, and suddenly crybabies opening threads left and right about rng coat after 2 days of event… I mean give me a break…

I just hope anet keep doing balanced approach, give bunch of easy options, but give some harder as well.

And btw farming gold is very easy in gw2. There are plenty of 10 minute dungeons in game. AC p1 and p2 reward 1.5g + drops. So yea, there is rng in drops, but 1.5g base is what u getting for sure. So think of a rng as a bonus in this case.

The only time I felt rng was bad, was that ghost wolf in halloween event.

There are places where the RNG is a good mechanic, and other places where it is bad. Good where only junk and lower level stuff will drop, since it doesn’t really matter.

But it becomes bad, if you as a player start working on getting valuable items off the RNG by repeating actions over and over and feeding valuable resources that are consumed in the process. If that is the only way to get it or a (seemingly) viable way. It educates people to gamble. It educates childs to gamble. No exactly educating, but it tells young people and childs that gambling is a normal and a valid way to get stuff – which it is not.

Don’t get me wrong: I am not of the religious or pious type for which gambling is devil’s sent. I was simply raised by parents who never gambled and lived this. Whenever I asked for lottery tickets or the like, my parents told me it’s a waste of time and money. The odds to get something valuable are so low that a return of investment is not possible. They showed me the fate of people who gamble or are addicted to gambling: they are usually broke. They spend their money and get nothing in return. Now I am a grown up of 46 years, have seen some parts of the world, and I can confirm: yes, my parents were kitten right.

So I would like to ask: don’t use the RNG in places where it is used like a one-armed bandit to get stuff. We all know videos of the lost people in casinos who have a large bag of coins and are putting them into the slot machines and pull the lever hour after hour, day after day. Don’t educate childs to do something similar, for example in the mystic forge. Or in the shop with the black lion chests.

If I had childs, I would not allow them to play Guild Wars 2. In all friendship and honesty: no, the way the RNG is used in GW2 isn’t for minors, because minors don’t yet know the value of things, time and resources. The ESRB does not seem to see this aspect in games and rate games not according to it, but I do.

(Now you can laugh at me)

Silmar Alech.4305:

(Now you can laugh at me)

Not with such a reasonable and responsible attitude. kudos to you.

Behellagh.1468:

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Well ideally a streakbreaker wouldn’t shift the mean by all that much if it only impacted those who are outside of say the two sigma “unlucky” end of the tail. The idea is to only implement it for the ultra rare drops.

Also note that it wouldn’t add anything remotely close to what is currently available via playing the tp. Playing the tp is and will always continue to be far beyond anything else in game (ofc abstaining dumping heaps of rl cash). It is the numero uno variable when it comes to wealth disparity.

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Why shouldn’t they? More time, more effort= more reward. The problem now is that more time and effort give no reward.

Carighan.6758:

@Rauderi that seems to be a change they may have done due to player feedback.
Notice how in Silverwastes you can pay 12 tokens for a random extractor or 30 for a specific one.

It is also a variation of something those vendors have always done. Consider the cost of the unsafe gift versus buying the exact one you want.