Guild Wars 2

Silmar Alech.4305:

There are places where the RNG is a good mechanic, and other places where it is bad. Good where only junk and lower level stuff will drop, since it doesn’t really matter.

But it becomes bad, if you as a player start working on getting valuable items off the RNG by repeating actions over and over and feeding valuable resources that are consumed in the process. If that is the only way to get it or a (seemingly) viable way. It educates people to gamble. It educates childs to gamble. No exactly educating, but it tells young people and childs that gambling is a normal and a valid way to get stuff – which it is not.

Don’t get me wrong: I am not of the religious or pious type for which gambling is devil’s sent. I was simply raised by parents who never gambled and lived this. Whenever I asked for lottery tickets or the like, my parents told me it’s a waste of time and money. The odds to get something valuable are so low that a return of investment is not possible. They showed me the fate of people who gamble or are addicted to gambling: they are usually broke. They spend their money and get nothing in return. Now I am a grown up of 46 years, have seen some parts of the world, and I can confirm: yes, my parents were kitten right.

So I would like to ask: don’t use the RNG in places where it is used like a one-armed bandit to get stuff. We all know videos of the lost people in casinos who have a large bag of coins and are putting them into the slot machines and pull the lever hour after hour, day after day. Don’t educate childs to do something similar, for example in the mystic forge. Or in the shop with the black lion chests.

If I had childs, I would not allow them to play Guild Wars 2. In all friendship and honesty: no, the way the RNG is used in GW2 isn’t for minors, because minors don’t yet know the value of things, time and resources. The ESRB does not seem to see this aspect in games and rate games not according to it, but I do.

(Now you can laugh at me)

RL is RNG. There are millions of people who play the lottery who aren’t “addicted” to it. Same goes for people who gamble recreationally. I always wonder about the psychological motivations about people who are so opposed to RNG who are not religiously inclined. Perhaps they have relatives who are gambling addicts or some just hate “unearned” wealth (which involves 0% element of luck involved) in general.

I do agree with one thing though – I would love it if GW2 was rated to a more mature audience so that plotlines need not cater to the adolescent demographics.

I’ve been playing since the 3 day headstart, probably like 7k+ hours and I have never had a precursor drop or from the mystic forge(I don’t gamble a lot though) so my personal choice would be option 2.5 , combined with a mystic forge recipe that allows you to ’’craft’’ an account-bound version of the precursor using that new special token + some other stuff.

I like the sound of concept 2, personally. This still allows players to get, spontaneous, lucky drops that feel immensely rewarding, but also allows players who are consciously working towards that same reward to actually do something to get that reward rather than relying on the role of a dice. The only issue with the system that I can see is how the system identifies what the player is looking for – for example, many people grind dungeons for gold, and if the system identified these players as say, grinding for a precursor, there’s the risk of ‘rewarding’ players for ‘grinding’ for an item they weren’t actually looking for.

RNG is never meant to guarantee something to happen other than a random chance of luck. The idea is that the chance is so low that if it ever happened in your life, the feeling makes you feel special and good (or lucky XD). No one should ever rely on luck to achieve something they really want. Just like in RL you get a job to accumulate wealth (or grinding in dungeon for gold) and occasionally buy lottery with your excess money (mystic forge) for luck. Unless you aim to be a professional gambler and want to live in casino. Even those pros rely on their gambling techniques but not luck.

People play games wanting to get rewards for sure. So just add other ways to achieve those goals and leave RNG as it is. If you change RNG and guarantee success, I can see a lot of people just sit there rolling the dies and not actually playing the game XD.

Ehhh . . . I’ll finally weigh in a little. Bear in mind, this is coming off playing two games tonight with buddies RL side. One game was “Settlers of Catan”, though a bit house-ruled through adding a lot of material to it. The other was a dice game called “Shooting Straights” I think – a sort of “dice poker”. I’ll give you a wild guess which one we enjoyed more.

RNG makes a game interesting instead of a simple tactical struggle to be the first to get a high ground position and defend it successfully. I’ve played games like that before, where there was almost no random chance to the game at all. I don’t tell stories of those games as much as I do the time I rolled thirteen failures in a row one night playing D&D. Or that one game of Risk where someone tableflipped because one unit of mine in Ukraine always tied the attacker’s highest roll and he wasted fifty seven armies attacking it with me having cards to turn in next turn.

So, RNG has its place in gaming. Shall we all agree there is ample reason not to entirely gut it out?

However at the same time . . . “jackpot RNG” where someone who can essentially win a game through random chance, is not fun to play. (Even for the winner sometimes.) In translating this to GW2 or other MMOs – there’s nothing fun where the only thing keeping you from something is a random chance you can’t overcome with anything other than repeated attempts to succeed. (I hate how Diablo 3 has basically several dozen achievements which boil down to “replay areas/chapters and hope what you need is randomly spawned until you get it . . . now repeat a dozen times for the other things”.)

When we talk about cosmetic advancements, however . . . I’m a little softer on it. With them not being necessary for advancement and only a matter of how your character looks, I find I can’t muster righteous indignation.

Except in one regard. It should be possible to acquire something of statistical equality to a random drop through hard work, persistence, and effort. It need not look as cool but it should at least be possible to have the stats.

That’s it.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If I had childs, I would not allow them to play Guild Wars 2. In all friendship and honesty: no, the way the RNG is used in GW2 isn’t for minors, because minors don’t yet know the value of things, time and resources. The ESRB does not seem to see this aspect in games and rate games not according to it, but I do.

(Now you can laugh at me)

In the spirit of friendship and goodwill, I’m not going to laugh at you.

I will, however, say if you just dump your children on GW2 and don’t try to educate them on how the RNG works and why it’s a bad idea to spend all your money dumping greatswords into the Mystic Forge all day and hoping for Dawn? I really don’t want you letting your kids near the game either.

This is, of course, assuming said children are adolescent or younger. I feel it’s imperative not just to know what children of that age are up to but to sit down and discuss it with them so they can understand it. Even if it’s not something you actually know anything about – have them teach you. (Actually that’s the quickest way to mastery of something – having to teach it to someone else.)

If you really want to show them the evils of RNG? I recommend Monopoly or Yahtzee.

World of Warcraft had a system where you had a personal drop that you could obtain with the use of a special coin item (of which you could only ever have a maximum of 10). If you didn’t get anything 3 times in a row (or maybe it was 4), you were guaranteed to get a drop on its next use. Since the loot tables were transparent, you’d know exactly what item you wanted and could save your next token for it.

Just a thought.

Koviko.3248:

World of Warcraft had a system where you had a personal drop that you could obtain with the use of a special coin item (of which you could only ever have a maximum of 10). If you didn’t get anything 3 times in a row (or maybe it was 4), you were guaranteed to get a drop on its next use. Since the loot tables were transparent, you’d know exactly what item you wanted and could save your next token for it.

Just a thought.

In before “only 3? game would die” comments.

First, could be 10, 15, 20. (Depending on content, please please no more than 20 or so.)

Second, not a bad idea to have a non-gem item to purchase with gold (possibly priced at 1 or 2 gold), to grant a buff significantly raises the chance of a specific drop in a small time frame and then removes itself when the drop occurs.

Anet, please fast track the changes to RNG. I’m now on 23 Vinewrath mega boss kills and STILL no 3rd carapace coat box (you can’t tell me I’m not putting in the effort!), whilst others are getting their final coat box and ascended armor boxes left, right, and center. This REALLY isn’t fair and it’s making me hate the content. So much so I most likely won’t return to the Vinewrath boss because of it. Inside I am literally tearing strips off my hair with frustration.

We need some sort of guaranteed reward track that makes it so that if you can’t get said reward by X amount, you WILL get it.

For example, I never played sPvP up until a few weeks ago when the daily achievements were changed and I felt comfortable to finally give it a go (I thought it was very elitist and only the pro’s did it – I am not a pro when it comes to combat, lol). I was really impressed with the sPvP reward track because I felt like my efforts were actually going to use, rather than to waste.

I can now say I’ve got the item I wanted (glorious medium chest) – because 98% of the medium tops are trenchcoats and because of the lack of skimpy male armor, I at least wanted to show off my derrière without some trenchcoat hiding everything.

Will I return to sPvP for future rewards? Yes, because my efforts and time put into it are rewarded indefinitely. Can I say the same about the Vinewrath in Silverwastes? Nope. 23 kills now and STILL no 3rd coat box. I most likely won’t be returning simply because of its RNG, and it’s a shame because I’m sure a lot of effort went into making the content, but the RNG factor has just killed any and all fun for me. It’s unfair and it’s not rewarding.

BBMouse.6510:

RNG is never meant to guarantee something to happen other than a random chance of luck. The idea is that the chance is so low that if it ever happened in your life, the feeling makes you feel special and good (or lucky XD). No one should ever rely on luck to achieve something they really want. Just like in RL you get a job to accumulate wealth (or grinding in dungeon for gold) and occasionally buy lottery with your excess money (mystic forge) for luck. Unless you aim to be a professional gambler and want to live in casino. Even those pros rely on their gambling techniques but not luck.

People play games wanting to get rewards for sure. So just add other ways to achieve those goals and leave RNG as it is. If you change RNG and guarantee success, I can see a lot of people just sit there rolling the dies and not actually playing the game XD.

If you are just grinding in dungeons for gold, you are doing it wrong. Maybe its fine if you have a speedrunner guild that has a set schedule but in general it is just better to do SW. Gambling techniques only minimize the chances of losing but not all of it. There are many pros that go flat broke as well.

As for how the rich accumulate wealth in RL, well lets just say thats not how capitalism works.

I personally like RNG, there is always a chance to get something nice. I do think there should always be an alternative way to get the stuff as well. For precursors this is outright buying the item for example. There are a few instances where the lack of a second way really reduces the fun for me, the two cases that come to mind: carapace coat boxes and the fractal tonic.

The concept of “choice & compromise” has not yet been mentioned, I think, but needs a short intro;

In real life people feel happiest when they have succeeded at a particular undertaking (especially of their choosing)—and consequently reap the expected intangible and tangible rewards of that success. Therefore, in order to reproduce that happiness in your game, there must be rewards (and compromises) commensurate with any undertaking. Conversely, illogical (unexpected) generic rewards mostly detract from the entire experience. *See Blue Moa’s, wolves and other wild animals dropping great swords and bows and spears. But I digress.

Therefore, in creating the best experience, there is simply no getting away from an RNG system that directly manipulates the outcome of an RNG in favour of what a person expects, (John’s option 2), but having chosen a path, perhaps compromised, and subsequently succeeded.

In real life people make choices and compromises—some that prove difficult decisions to make—usually before they go on an undertaking.This aspect of choice and compromise is mostly ‘backwards’ or absent in the current adventure/random loot system, and it is the same for all players—when instead there is opportunity to really make it “their story”.

THE MEAT

The improved RNG system would have players choose a theme that would reflect the direction in which a player wishes to advance. RNG loot drops are tied to both the mob types and the theme. Final, high-end items could not simply ‘drop’, but require assembly by combining other items obtained through a database of random events (adventures) tied to the player’s chosen theme. (their story)
These adventures could require compromise, rather like certain direction changes people face in real life—changing a university degree half way through for example—i.e. in GW2 said character “theme” changes, combat required with a specific weapon combination for X amount of time etc.

Bottom line: loot drops or is acquired more or less according to player expectation but also only after their having made an active choice or compromise.

2.5 please, assuming the “tokens” don’t end up in my inventory bags.

Sol.6213:

2.5 please, assuming the “tokens” don’t end up in my inventory bags.

Good point. If we just let them do any token system, a precursor will cost 10,000 tokens which will be unstackable.

John Smith.4610:

Chobiko.9182:

I am sure one can come up with better solutions than these 3 John.

These aren’t solutions, they’re concepts that would be the framework behind a solution.

One thing that’s bothersome about all the feedback is that the overwhelming majority can’t stand it in it’s current form. But yet the devs continue to implement it as is.

Obligatory note that this statement has no factual backing in two senses. That being said, I began this thread because I wanted to open discussion on the fact. I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

I know it’s hard to imagine, but working in video games there is often a LARGE investment into changes. It’s not something that can happen overnight. I ask for lenience in this, it isn’t that we aren’t listening or not working, we are, really hard. I firmly believe this game has gotten better and better and better and it’s going to be better and better and better than it is now.

While yes my comment has no factual backing, it’s irrelevant. As a paying customer, fan, and avid player of GW2, I find the current RNG system not fun, unrewarding, and very frustrating. I gave a few examples of why in my original post. And I am far from the only one that shares this sentiment. As an entity that provides a service, it’s up to you to make it better and not be so defensive/snippy about it. Customer Service 101.

So if we’re discussing systems: part of the problem with RNG is clamping down on the outliers. People are threatened by uncertainty, even though they do respond to random rewards.

So here’s an idea for a ‘buffet’ reward system, that’s probably not technically feasible but let’s look at it anyway. When a player receives something from a specific source, the game rolls, say, 7 times on a table, and then presents the items from those rolls for the player to choose from. The player picks one, and they get that item while the other six stay on the buffet, for the next time the player receives something from that source. The buffet is rerolled when it gets down to about two or three items, and probably also at some specific reset time.

This could be modified further:

• the most valuable item on the buffet is taken off and put as a final reward, only available once four or five lesser items have been taken off the buffet. This stops players seeing that they don’t have anything particularly exciting coming up and electing to do something else.

• some kind of universal currency is always available instead of an item on the table. This might be either a consumable like karma, or a random roll like a Bag of Coins. This’d probably be pitched so it’s a bad deal on average, but it’s there to anchor the other choices. Players frustrated by bad rolls can at least get something they expected.

• if there’s more than one of the most and least valuable tier of items, reroll them, to try and curb outliers.

• Remove duplicate items – this works better when there’s a strong chance of getting duplicates.

The advantage is that you still get the thrill of seeing what’s on the buffet the first time (and UI sizzle can sell that better, having them appear one at a time) but after that you get certainty. From an economic perspective, there’s a slight uptick in the value of drops, but that’s mitigated by some of the modifications that shave off the outliers.

2 and 2.5 are the best solutions as far as I see.

I’ve had extraordinary bad luck (at least as far as I can tell) with the Mystic Forge and pre drops, as well as Fractal drops and carapace chest pieces.

It’s miserable being on the lower end while seeing everyone else make heaps of money just by simply being lucky. While this is true in real life, I don’t want to experience this much real life in my video games.

With 2, this prevents severely negative consequences of random distributions while still offering a chance of great success.

2.5 is probably the best idea. This provides people with the hope that they can at least achieve what they’re seeking, without unbalancing current systems.

Maybe until such time as a solution for the RNG issues is implemented, you guys could just stop releasing new content with heavy RNG components, like Mordrem organs, Carapace boxes, things like that. You can have RNG as an alternate method of earning things, but there should also be a non -RNG option.

Ohoni.6057:

Maybe until such time as a solution for the RNG issues is implemented, you guys could just stop releasing new content with heavy RNG components, like Mordrem organs, Carapace boxes, things like that. You can have RNG as an alternate method of earning things, but there should also be a non -RNG option.

I agree with this concept. Although carapace boxes already have a non-RNG way of getting them through crests. And this implementation I find adequate because I’m happy when I get a drop I’ve been wanting but can also get the item just by playing and working towards it. But I wish the Mordrem parts weren’t pure RNG although I do like that they release specific part extractors with each update. Let’s hope new specific extractors will be released on the 27th. Now the grind to get the crests is another topic on its own which I’ll leave for another thread.

One of the things this game lacks now after all the changes to try to make it more “challenging” is a system that’s reasonable for obtaining top tier gear for the purposes of open world.

For example, several other titles out there allowed the collection of currency within a reasonable amount of time per piece to gear characters. It’s been a necessity since mmo’s had end game anything… So my proposal is to not only allow for the players to have fewer RNG elements ie buying materials directly from vendors for making gear in the crafting system that already exists OR repurposing Karma so that you can actually either buy the materials directly (no more bags remove the bags and allow people to buy the items like ectos and stones etc) or buy the gear directly. Reasonable would be 1-2 weeks of doing in game events that give you these currencies (whatever is chosen to be used) per piece. So you could virtually gear your toon out completely in a 3.5 months. That way it remains alt friendly and it allows players the ability to ignore the need to farm entirely (which Anet has stated that they basically wanted to eliminate) and everyone’s happy.

You can do whatever you want with the dungeons/raids that you develop but for the casuals it should be a reasonable system instead of the mess it is now.

Pure Heart.1456:

Therefore, in creating the best experience, there is simply no getting away from an RNG system that directly manipulates the outcome of an RNG in favour of what a person expects, (John’s option 2), but having chosen a path, perhaps compromised, and subsequently succeeded.

I like the idea, though I’m not quite sure it wouldn’t frustrate people even more. To oversimplify:

• Select “I want a Legendary”.
• You lose random drops worth extra cash, random minipets, all that stuff. No longer on the loottable or chance just went down 95%.
• In return, your dropchance for a legendary is now x10 (or something), and you need to gather pieces instead of a single one, and for each piece there’s then a story you need to finish.

Problem?
At x10 the chance, the average person would never ever see all pieces they need drop. They’d need to AH them.

The issue comes from overall scarcity of loot, which, given that the game doesn’t invalidate existent loot (not even Exotics when Ascended came in, however big a mistake that gear tier has been regardless), isn’t unsurprising at all. It’s a pure influx-based economy, it needs to be really stingy with the handouts.

Only that means that even if you try to make RNG controllable, the “improved” chances at getting what you want are still going to be so miniscule that you still won’t get what you pick, and also won’t get what you didn’t pick.

Otherwise the idea is good. But I can predict that public perception would be terrible at best. :P

@John Smith

The problem is not with RNG being random, but with some of the drop rates being too low that the rates are, in a player’s experience, rarely anywhere near their statistical rates. While rarity also gives value, and it is understandable that to have higher value items their overall rates must be low, the current system where the rates are so low that a player cannot ever approach its statistical rate is broken.

The solution is to use a 2-factor drop system. The first factor is always two-digit, anywhere from 10 to 25%, as overly high rates also entirely remove the emotional effect of receiving a drop. This factor awards a ‘scrap’. The second factor is non-RNG based, and gives a 100% chance of combination success of scraps via an NPC vendor. The number of scraps required for combination into the original ‘drop’ item can then be modified to achieve the intended droprate and thus, its intended rarity. The scrap can be left as an account bound item as well to avoid devaluation from increased supply frequency.

Arenanet has already applied this system three times: 10 black lion scraps creates a ticket, 25 keys plus a bandit key creates a key of greater nightmares, and 4 aetherblade key fragments creates one aetherblade chest key.

I see no good reason why it should not be expanded to deal with the problem drops of low frequency: legendary precursors, fractal weapons, tequatl hoards, regurgitated armor boxes, dungeon exotic accessory recipes, arthropoda, and unidentified (amber) insects. The last one was the most mind-boggling – since the system already exists to exchange a token for the required item for the ambrite weapon, it has never made sense to me why the drop rate was not multiplied by 20, and the number of required insects per ambrite core also multiplied by 20. As an added benefit, some of these can be paired to give a choice – fractal runners would be far happier if they got fractal weapon shards which they could combine to get any skin they wanted, as opposed to the current system, where some fractallers hold 14 harpoon guns, but all they wanted was a fractal sword. Using this on precursors would also equalise the cost of all precursors – while all legendaries are still of different value due to different components in the crafting process, the difference in precursor values at the moment makes not only legendaries, but even rares and exotics different in prices between weapon types – which is also one of the reasons people complained about profession based loot.

All complaints about RNG I have seen are because of absurdly low rates that do not allow drops to obey the law of large numbers.

P.S. It would be better if the tokens are treated as currencies. Geodes, bandit crests and whatnot take up an insane amount of inventory space as it is, and it is similarly mind-boggling why they were not coded into the account wallet.

P.P.S. As opposed to a ‘secondary system’ besides the ‘main RNG’ I would rather the ‘main’ system be scrapped entirely and replaced with this for any drop for which the intended drop rate is below 5%.

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

What’s happening with current dungeon tokens, is that the devs can’t realistically put new and unique items in the dungeon vendors because some players have already accumulated thousands upon thousands of tokens, the same can happen with a Token system that recplaces RNG, making the difference between new/casual and old/hardcore players huge, therefore solving no RNG issues.

For a token system I can very easily mitigate this problem using two different subsystems.

A) When you buy an item you use up ALL of your remaining tokens. So you can’t hoard them to buy lots of items later. So once you reach a specific number of tokens, YOU MUST use them, otherwise any excess tokens will be wasted.

B) Put a cap/limit on how many tokens a player can have. Similar to the above system, the cap will ensure players use up their tokens as often as possible, so as not to waste them.

The above systems would solve any potential issues with tokens and new players, and make the playfield between hardcores and casuals more balanced and even.

As a sidenote, the reason they need to add new currencies ALL THE TIME, is because players farm and hoard loads upon loads of old currencies, making them invalid for use in new content. By using any of the above 2 systems, players cannot hoard currencies anymore, so dungeon tokens, fractal relics, badges of honnor, bandit crests, geodes etc can stay VALID and USEFUL for the entire lifetime of the game.

Just out of curiosity ANet, what was wrong with GW1’s loot system? In GW1, you ran specific content for the skins you wanted. Yes, there was RNG, but at the same time, you made plenty of gold doing the runs ( Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Dungeons, etc ) that you’d be able to buy whatever it is you were after in a few days, or a week or two. You could see yourself getting toward the item you wanted with each Vanquish you did, each Zaishen Key you sold, or each Ecto you bought. In GW2? You spend all your time chasing some kitten with a blue tag getting all these sweet exotic bags. And affter you finally choose to open them all the best drop you get is a kitten Cobalt, and 10 stacks of freaking Mithral and that leather crap that no one wants that I don’t even know the kitten name of.

What I’d personally like to see, is the return of how it was in GW1. Take that Cobalt, and stick it in a Dungeon path as a rare drop. Matter of fact, take 99% of that crap out of Champion Bags that’s named ( Cobalt, Shiverstone, Entropy, Anura, etc. ) and put it in Dungeons, WvW Honor Vendors, or rare drops from sPvP loot boxes. And I don’t mean put them all in one darn Champion Bag. Spread them out, like Entropy can only be got in a specific Dungeon path or Anura can only be got for 10,000 Honor Badges or something like that.

Nevermind lol. I’ve typed and deleted so many times, I’m tired of looking at this page. GW2’s loot system sucks. That is all, please fix.

What if rng for trash loot and token/reward track for high end things? I mean you can buy precursors and exo, t6 bags etc for tokens?

I believe that certain items should have pseudo-RNG instead. For every time a reward does not drop, the chance increases slightly until it does. Of course, this would not apply to every RNG drop in the game. It would, however, reduce the Carapace Coat frustration and the like. It would be most fitting for account bound items, I believe, since there is no alternative way to get them.

I have been playing long enough to notice changes. RNG can be changed simply by changing or building new numbers into a patch, and its certainly open to change, RNG can simply mean anything, and any number. I have noticed when dropping 4 lev 80 exotics or 3 lev 80’s with a stone into mystic, that I am rewarded with a lev 76 to lev 78 weapon, with Sigil of Accuracy or Sigil of force (only good for salvage, and useless to a lev 80 toon, of which I have 13). So after many, many attempts, I have seen a pattern change. I feel I am being sold a lot of hype about forge stones and RNG, because after playing for nearly 3 years, the good drops have become less and less from as far back kitten month ago. RNG is explained by the Devs, I appreciate the explanation, but mystic is fast becoming a no go zone for me, spoiling a huge part of the game that I enjoyed. I used to spend 4 hours doing boss runs, and looking forward to an attempt to get something decent, all I think now is nah, waste of time. This is not a dig at the Devs, simply my opinion and real life game experience.

@ John Smith (or whoever knows this).

I realised I assumed something in my previous post, and so I would like to confirm whether I was wrong in assuming or not.

The RNG system implemented in GW2 is it truly random, or does it rely on an underlying probability distribution?

The items are obviously tied to a probability distribution (else there would be no rarity), but are player’s rolls based on a probability distribution or are their rolls truly random (because of magic find I would assume that you need either a distribution or add a constant/variable to the roll)?

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Well ideally a streakbreaker wouldn’t shift the mean by all that much if it only impacted those who are outside of say the two sigma “unlucky” end of the tail. The idea is to only implement it for the ultra rare drops.

Also note that it wouldn’t add anything remotely close to what is currently available via playing the tp. Playing the tp is and will always continue to be far beyond anything else in game (ofc abstaining dumping heaps of rl cash). It is the numero uno variable when it comes to wealth disparity.

According to those that claim playing the tp offers endless riches it also takes no effort.
As there arent any other restrictions to play the tp either, it can be done by old and new players, casuals and hardcore players.
If its available to all groups, how can it be a divider between those?

There are many systems in game that should be utilized more.

1.) Collections. I know there is a way to use this system to circumvent RNG.

2.) Bind to Account boxes of various items that contain versions of Bound items so that it wouldn’t offset the economy. You pick the item you want. It’s bound. Everyone is happy. People that get that amazingly rare drop aren’t ticked because the item they got is still valuable and the people that are truly after a super rare item are happy because they got to pick what they wanted.

3.) Repurposed tokens with caps.

4.) Dungeon/Fractal Paths with specific rewards tied to them. RNG remains, but people have a sure way with increased RNG odds to get what they are after. This serves multiple uses: a.) it creates replayability and purpose b.) it brings people back to content they may have abandoned.

It seems to me that you guys nerf places that have really great drop rates that adversely affect the economy. It’s done even when it’s being played as intended. It’s all to protect the economy. I get that. Not giving players the ability to play certain content in order to get what they want though goes against the spirit of what an RPG is though. I think a lot of the feeling of underwhelming rewards comes from this.

TL;DR The system you are using to make your company money is also the thing that is hindering the rewarding feeling players are looking for in an RPG and it’s a double-edged sword.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Well ideally a streakbreaker wouldn’t shift the mean by all that much if it only impacted those who are outside of say the two sigma “unlucky” end of the tail. The idea is to only implement it for the ultra rare drops.

Also note that it wouldn’t add anything remotely close to what is currently available via playing the tp. Playing the tp is and will always continue to be far beyond anything else in game (ofc abstaining dumping heaps of rl cash). It is the numero uno variable when it comes to wealth disparity.

According to those that claim playing the tp offers endless riches it also takes no effort.
As there arent any other restrictions to play the tp either, it can be done by old and new players, casuals and hardcore players.
If its available to all groups, how can it be a divider between those?

I never said it didn’t require effort. I only said it is unbounded by game mechanics/authority.

The impacts of the hypothetical additions in question would have limits implied by the game itself. It would have no respective difference due to level of invested effort that anything else on that front. The only difference would be the exact same as the rest of the game. Playing the tp is unbounded by the game itself while everything else is limited. That’s the reason why there is the difference. Aside from that one variable everything else has commonality.

I agree with this concept. Although carapace boxes already have a non-RNG way of getting them through crests.

Some do, some don’t. All should.

Ohoni.6057:

I agree with this concept. Although carapace boxes already have a non-RNG way of getting them through crests.

Some do, some don’t. All should.

Yeah I realized my mistake after I posted and tried to buy the chest skin. My guess is that all will be purchasable at some point with crests.

Here is a perfect example of why RNG is just garbage.

I just finished Dragons Reach: part 2. In fact, my partner died half way through the final battle, and I got to solo a dragon by myself.

In the end I get a bright shiny box called “Summit Hero’s Reward”.

It’s contents?

3 Obsidian Shards
7 Globs of Globby Gloop
2 Spikes
2 Potent Venom Sacs
1 Large fang

That is INSULTING in it’s level of “reward”

I don’t know what’s so good about fixing RNG with more RNG (throwing random tickets at less fortunate players).

I am all for a token system, as well as achievement based rewards. RNG can stay ofc, but on top of something what while not easy, is a robust and reliable means of getting that ephemeric boss drop equipment that otherwise is like UFO to some die-hard runners.

Also supplementing (noT replacing!) may be an idea to make a given weapon/armor tradeable at npc for another of same type (for example trade sunless reaver for sunless spire, or leftpaw’s light striders for leftpaw’s heavy chest and vice-versa).

Why is RNG the primary reward mechanic? Last I checked right before release you mocked WoW and released a comic strip satirizing RNG on loot and spreadsheets, and what we got were dungeons with multiple paths whose rewards came via token systems.

Then you completely reneged on that design and went for a greedy casino style RNG grind so people would be desperate enough to spend cash on your gemstore to bypass the incredibly low drop rates on items or avoid grinding the immense gold sums such RNG drops were going for.

No other MMO has been as big an offender as this game. Precursor drops are the equivalent of suddenly getting 500k WoW gold dropped for you randomly.

It’s plain broken, not even WoW in its worst days had such an egregious amount of wealth randomly gifted to players.

It’s a total disrespect to player’s time and effort to have around four months of grind randomly gifted to somebody. Some players even twice while players who have been playing the game since beta have not gotten a single drop.

In fact, it’s this and all the fractal skins and the absurd paywall you set behind every skin released ever since explorable dungeons. Since explorer dungeons we have not gotten a full thematically proper armor and weapon set that is not behind some RNG paywall.

Rewards from doing activities in this game are so hideously low, especially high tier crafting materials, that players are choosing to ignore playing the game and instead playing the auction house.

I spend 1.5 hours on a fractal 50 and come out empty-handed, with a measlly 4 gold for my time in stuff sold for running the dungeon and the 193792739th useless ascended ring that you don’t need because for fractal 50 you already have infused accessories everywhere plus an ascended weapon and armor piece which is mandatory to survive agony (70 AR is such a dumb gate to content).

And then if lightning strikes and for some miracle you get a fractal skin, it may be a duplicate or a skin you won’t even use.

Everything about this game feels like a cash shop hamster wheelm. More Korean grind than a proper Western MMO.

As someone pointed out, gold is the great equalizer as rewards for doing what you want to do. And to get gold from random drops requires you to sell disliked RNG drops on the TP where 15% of the price is sucked out of the game. If reward is tied to specific content, you are requiring players to play a particular event where RNG says you could get it doing anything and if not, someone is likely selling one on the TP.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

Wanze.8410:

John Smith.4610:

naiasonod.9265:

John Smith.4610:

I wouldn’t continue it in this fashion if I didn’t agree that there could be superior systems.

How do you feel about hybrid RNG systems that employ such concepts as ‘streakbreaker’ mechanisms, that eventually force or enable some manner of deterministic option? I’m curious, as they’re not uncommon (consequently, I imagine they’ve been examined in various formats before), and wondering what the reasons might be for why they aren’t employed…or if its merely a matter of that they haven’t been employed yet.

Are they off the table? If so, why.

Are they topically relevant? If so, how do you feel about them?

I don’t think they’re off the table. I’ve played several games using this type of RNG in my research recently and they are not my favorite solution, but that’s still a personal opinion, I haven’t developed a professional one yet.

Wouldnt streakbreaker or token systems add to wealth disparity between veteran/hardcore players and new/casual players?

Well ideally a streakbreaker wouldn’t shift the mean by all that much if it only impacted those who are outside of say the two sigma “unlucky” end of the tail. The idea is to only implement it for the ultra rare drops.

Also note that it wouldn’t add anything remotely close to what is currently available via playing the tp. Playing the tp is and will always continue to be far beyond anything else in game (ofc abstaining dumping heaps of rl cash). It is the numero uno variable when it comes to wealth disparity.

According to those that claim playing the tp offers endless riches it also takes no effort.
As there arent any other restrictions to play the tp either, it can be done by old and new players, casuals and hardcore players.
If its available to all groups, how can it be a divider between those?

I never said it didn’t require effort. I only said it is unbounded by game mechanics/authority.

The impacts of the hypothetical additions in question would have limits implied by the game itself. It would have no respective difference due to level of invested effort that anything else on that front. The only difference would be the exact same as the rest of the game. Playing the tp is unbounded by the game itself while everything else is limited. That’s the reason why there is the difference. Aside from that one variable everything else has commonality.

You are right. Profits on the TP are unbounded by the game itself (unless we consider listing fee and sales tax) but by the players themselves.
As every player has direct influence in this and can make his own choices of how much profit he would like to receive I dont see why Anet should intervene here when the players can do so more efficiently on their own.

If people choose to get less gold for their loot, they cant complain about wealth disparity.

I honestly prefer 1 – or at least you need take a look at your RNG;
I never get any drops whatsoever, and afaik drops aren’t affected by MF so my Luck MF of 124% shouldn’t theoretically put me as inferior in Teq or other chest drops to players with Luck of over 200%

However it makes me feel rather cheated when I see a person get 5 ascended gear boxes on subsequent Teq runs – it makes me think you are already skewing in favor of a person who runs Teq every day, which is the only way tbh for me to make myself feel any better.

If your RNG would be a bit less R , at least checking that all drops don’t go to 10 people and others are left in the mud, I’d like that.

As for tokens – that’s just a grind and I’d assume right away the only way for me to get stuff is using tokens, because I never get any drops. And those ppl that do get drops – that’s just cheating :P And totally unfair. If you modified your RNG to reward people with an occasional drop, while also adding some kind of tokens – I think that’d be the best.

Also you need to remove RNG from black lion chests scrap tickets, because I get 1 in 5-10 chests, while people reporting getting one every 2nd chest – which again makes me feel like the player who is unlucky all the god kitten time.
And I don’t know who in their right mind is going to buy black lion keys for gems if that scrap isn’t even going to drop. Those black lion skins are sitting there useless and I’d much prefer I could buy them for gems than the stupid RNG on scrap, since I can only buy keys with gems anyway. You’d rake in way more money from gems I think if there was a guarantee that I get that skin, eg 1 scrap ticket per chest or some such. Meh.

I can’t even log in to this forum to post this, what a day.

Option #2 please. Those people that have been playing since release but have never seen a precursor drop need some love. If they just slowly built up some loot karma for not having RNJesus on their side seems like a very good option.

RNG in-game: OK
Even though it would be nice to have an alternate way to get precursors, even if it’s long.

RNG in cash shop: HELL NO
I pay real money. I want what I’m paying for. Period.

imho rng is a good stuff when u do some kind of progressive content, i remember it in other mmo, it was something “special” when u drop what u want, but ofc it’s also really bad when u never drop what u want.. for example the fractal skin.. imho should be a rng chest, so when u drop it u can choose your favourite skin, is really a bad feeling drop 3 time the same skin (u cant use it 3 time with wardrobe)

a good mix of rng and chest you can choose stuff is a good idea, otherwise with only a token system its just a math, 40time u do the content u will have what u want, a bit boring :p

John Smith.4610:

I want to remind everyone that this isn’t a discussion about precursors or specific rewards, that’s a different conversation. This is a discussion of the pro/cons and philosophy behind different forms of RNG implementation.

When precursors are the only RNG drop that actually matters in this game that’s what people are going to gravitate towards discussing…

Well i just hate some of the new stuff is hidden behind RNG .. remember the fossilized insect ? got only 3 from hundreds of opened chest…im bored to death of Dry Top now i killed numerous time the vinewrath and got only one coat …. now that i only need just one more to complete the collection .. i know i will never get it ..

Just getting the random mordrem parts was painful ( you get tons of kidney when you just need one eye ) Please just make the coat buyable for crest so i can leave this zone for good where you slay legions of monsters with no drops.

Fractals skin ? over 375 done .. nothing .. they don’t exist i say.

Copestetic.5174:

Just out of curiosity ANet, what was wrong with GW1’s loot system? In GW1, you ran specific content for the skins you wanted. Yes, there was RNG, but at the same time, you made plenty of gold doing the runs ( Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Dungeons, etc ) that you’d be able to buy whatever it is you were after in a few days, or a week or two.

There is no effective difference between the system you describe and GW2’s as it currently stands.

In GW2? You spend all your time chasing some kitten with a blue tag getting all these sweet exotic bags. And affter you finally choose to open them all the best drop you get is a kitten Cobalt, and 10 stacks of freaking Mithral and that leather crap that no one wants that I don’t even know the kitten name of.

You are overglamorizing the grind of the original Guild Wars. In GW1, you had a 1 in 8 chance of getting any non-money drop that occurred, the rest being scarfed by your partners. 99% of these were vendor trash; the remaining 1% consisted of imperfect rares that would vendor for, at most, 400g. In GW1, just like in GW2, you were better off salvaging nearly everything you picked up and turning it into raw materials which you could then sell to the crafting merchant.

Run specific content for skins? Maybe if you’re counting Tormented weapons, or throwing yourself at a boss over and over again in the hopes of getting its green. Just try to get a max rare Storm Bow, or Chaos Axe, or Golden Phoenix Sword, or even a max Katana or Tetsubo. Even Elemental Swords were hyperrare until someone figured out a boss you could farm for them. And Guild Wars Guru auction prices for dungeon skins were just as bad as Legendaries are today.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Rare skins are just as farmable in this game as they were in its predecessor. It ranges the whole gamut of can’t-give-it-away common all the way up to consign-your-life-away impossible to find.

Sariel V.7024:

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Rare skins are just as farmable in this game as they were in its predecessor. It ranges the whole gamut of can’t-give-it-away common all the way up to consign-your-life-away impossible to find.

Uhmm yeah…gonna have to call you out on this. I had over 16k hours in gw1 and was a moderator for gwguru ventari’s corner (the buy/sell section).
The reason the super expensive r7s in gw1 were so pricy is b/c they were no longer available as drops in the game. There were only a few of them floating around after being patched out. Those weapons/minis/etc…mainly got traded back and forth between the same players. In other words the high end traders basically traded them amongst themselves. The farmable skins aka mid ranged were very much directly farmable and it showed. UWsc for eternals, SoOsc for bds, FoWsc+vssc for vs, Frostmawsc for silverwings, etc etc…In gw1 there were very specific farms for certain items that had relatively expected returns.

What do we have in gw2? A few world boss skins (final rest, jormag’s breath, etc) that are time gated and are pure crapshoots?

Hello again,

Considering the statement that it is RNG as a whole, here is my revised opinion. Favorable RNG can be fun for random rewards. Persisting unfavorable RNG is really annoying, even more so when you can read other players claiming how lucky they are.

Therefore, pure RNG should only be included for:

• a very small amount of unique items which only hold a pure cosmetic use and that you really want to keep rare (e.g. aura “gems” such as queen bee. This category should not hold any item that provides stats or gameplay functionality, is used in crafting other items or is part of an item set or collection))
• items that are completely unimportant (blues and greens).

RNG can be implemented for other item classes as the cherry on top of the cake, however it should always be supplemented by one of the two following mechanisms to alleviate the lack of luck some players consistently suffer from. These mechanisms are:

• for account/soulbound items, one of the following method that lets players choose the reward they want: crafting, mystic forging with guaranteed output, quests or a token system which lets players buy the item they want from a seller NPC.
  The amount of crafting materials, tokens or time spent questing should be adjusted so that players opting to go for the guaranteed way should not spend more than 25-33% more time (in average) earning the item they desire than players opting for the “RNG path”.
  Tokens, if they are the selected method, should be earned doing the same activity that has a chance to loot the item from pure RNG.
  Examples: tokens for fractal weapon skins, tokens for carapace armor (well, the chest. The token system is already in use for other parts), recipe for rare account bound event items (minipets, tonics…)
• for items that are not bound on acquire and can be traded, a method that gives a guaranted chance at a random item from the category: categories could be precursors, named exos, weapon set exos, not account bound special event loots [minipets, breathing apparatus, tonics…], T6 common materials, T6 rare materials, special crafting items such as eyes and skulls, and so on.
  For each category, the system records the number of failed loot rolls. If the player loots an item, the failed roll count for that category is reset to 0. Once the count of failed rolls for a category reaches that category limit (i.e. the player has been really unlucky), he receives a special chest that will award him with a random item from that category.
  The unlucky roll limit should be specific to each category depending on that category scarcity (i.e. RNG loot chance) and should also be affected by player MF if you want to keep that stat relevant (i.e. lower number of unlucky rolls before “bonus” item for players with higher MF).
  This system is akin to a hidden token system that would not let the player choose the item of their choice from the category.

As far as tradable items are concerned, I suggest not letting unlucky players choose the item of their choice, otherwise they may be tempted to always select the most expensive one. That may cause market imbalance and have them become more lucky than lucky players since, at the end of the day, they would get less special items but consistently more expensive ones.

On the opposite side, I suggest that account bound items should always let the player choose what they want. This could prevent issues such as the following issue which can prove extremely frustrating: a player has all fractal skins except one. He will keep on looting a lot of them, but not the missing one, and he can’t exchange the excess skins with another player. Since these items are account bound, letting the player choose the one they want as no consequence for other players.

Best regards

John Smith.4610:

I want to remind everyone that this isn’t a discussion about precursors or specific rewards, that’s a different conversation. This is a discussion of the pro/cons and philosophy behind different forms of RNG implementation.

John, I feel a bit of deja vu here, you seem to keep having to point out that this is not a thread about Precursors. If I might offer a suggestion, the reason why this discussion keeps getting back around to Precursors is because Precursors are the most divisive and frustrating element of RNG in the game, and this is a thread about RNG, so it’d be a bit like having a thread about “politics” and not discussing “who should be president?”

Now, maybe this isn’t the thread for discussing Precursors, fair enough,m but which thread is? In which thread can players discuss Precursor availability (or lack thereof), and expect a developer to read it, consider what they have to say, and respond on the topic, because absolutely no developer discussion on Precursors over the past year and a half or so is getting incredibly frustrating from the outside.

TLDR; If you would like people to stop discussing Precursors in this thread, then start discussing Precursors elsewhere.

Sariel V.7024:

Copestetic.5174:

Just out of curiosity ANet, what was wrong with GW1’s loot system? In GW1, you ran specific content for the skins you wanted. Yes, there was RNG, but at the same time, you made plenty of gold doing the runs ( Fissure of Woe, Underworld, Dungeons, etc ) that you’d be able to buy whatever it is you were after in a few days, or a week or two.

There is no effective difference between the system you describe and GW2’s as it currently stands.

You’re out of your mind. If I took a week off and no-lifed GW1 FoWSC, I’d walk away with at minimum, Chaos Gloves with it being more likely that you could afford a Tormented Shield, a high req. Voltaic Spear and a nice Black finish to all of your crap. That’s not counting salvageables, decent vendor prices on trash loot, decent drops from trash, unidentified Rares to sell to players, or good drops from the Chest of Woe. If I took a week off to do the same with GW2, I’d probably shoot myself at the end of the week after opening a couple thousand of bags, only to make what, 500g after everything’s salvaged and sold on TP? Sweet, I can snag myself a cheap Precurser that I don’t really want, or maybe a couple of Black Lion weapon skins. If that’s what you just took a week off of work and played 8-12 hours a day to get, great. What you’ve earned in GW2 after that week is not nearly as significant as what it was in GW1 when it comes to getting the things you feel you “need” to complete your character.

Sariel V.7024:

Run specific content for skins? Maybe if you’re counting Tormented weapons, or throwing yourself at a boss over and over again in the hopes of getting its green. Just try to get a max rare Storm Bow, or Chaos Axe, or Golden Phoenix Sword, or even a max Katana or Tetsubo. Even Elemental Swords were hyperrare until someone figured out a boss you could farm for them. And Guild Wars Guru auction prices for dungeon skins were just as bad as Legendaries are today.

Uh, Underworld, FoW, Urgoz, Bogroots, Slavers…All ( and many more ) had specific drops that could only be got there, the Zaishen Chest, or from Hall of Heroes chest. Keeping these items locked behind content kept the demand high, and prices worth the effort of trying to score one. That’s where I think the loot system fails in GW2. Instead of spreading skins that players would think is “cool”, across its content; they just stuff it all into these stupid bags that attributes to the rest of their content being completely ignored because it’s deemed less profitable which, is hardly any ‘real’ profit to begin with since you’re dealing with Inception levels of RNG.