Guild Wars 2

Illuminerdi.9153:

The idea behind using RNG instead of grinding is that over a long enough timeline, both should produce a a similarly curved graph; the difference being that grind produces a smooth curve with little variation, whereas RNG produces as jagged curve with peaks and valleys.

Yes, but only when you cumulate all items that where given to all players in total. That is an aspect when you think about the in-game economy.

But from a “per player” viewpoint, the curves will never be similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

With a true RNG system there will always be players that are on the “lower end” of the curve/distribution and the loot will never be distributed equally between all players.

Greetings.

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.

RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.

This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.

there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.

I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.

You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.

Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.

It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.

Merus.9475:

• It seems that level 80s get a special loot table, and that loot table mostly consists of blue and green iron/soft wood weapons. The algorithm used to generate items is pretty transparent, so this equipment feels very formulaic very quickly. Level 80 characters see the same things over and over again, so it feels like characters are most likely to receive unexciting weapons – essentially, junk the game has misclassed as valuable.

You’re correct but not for the reason you think. It seems one of the side effects of increased magic find is that you are more likely to get an item that is at or near your level, rather than at or near the level of the area you are in. If you take a new character and level it up entirely in new player areas, you will see this in effect. There isn’t a loot table designed for just level 80 characters, but level 80 characters are permanently stuck at the top end of it.

The main outfall of this, of course, is that we are now awash in T5 and T6 materials, since even when players tear themselves away from the top tier farming areas, they’re still getting level 80 gear rewards. Secondary outfall is that T2-T4 materials are in short supply. This is also why collecting silver doubloons for The Juggernaut is such a drag.

To help improve RNG rewards you can add unidentified items. When you get 1 item you can choose the stats of that item, and that would identify it.
In that way, everyone would be happy, because it would be easy to make a dps build.
All items on the market would change, and then you would easily see what stats are garbage because nobody wants to use them. And so on, you would change those stats to be somewhat useful.

Choice 2.5 can be a good compromise. My question, how do you balance the difference between the RNG and the tokens? How many standard deviations to the left are we trying to limit? Just the last 1%? 3%?

Also this benefits the time rich people while hurting the player with less time. Shouldn’t these tokens be saleable to help maintain the interest of the time poor class of people?

Iason Evan.3806:

The Mystic Forge needs to kick out items that are equal to or above the level of the items you put in.

The current state of the Mystic Forge is like Elementalists at game launch. Players think it sucks and don’t bother to explore it for its potential, because it doesn’t appear to be immediately rewarding. The saddest thing is…. well, that would be telling, and I’ve learned to keep my secrets.

Players that know what they are doing will still do well with it, and might even do it a little more cheaply than before the change since they can act on current player prejudice.

Roybe.5896:

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.

RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.

This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.

there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.

I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.

You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.

Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.

It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.

You misunderstood what was being discussed. Of course everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand. That’s undeniable. What I was arguing is that not all items should or have to be at that point. Precursors were intended to be incredibly rare. So of course their supply level will not equal the demand level. This gap was intended.

Perhaps I could have worded it better. Does the following change portray my intent more clearly? The changes are in bold.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must be at an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

Illuminerdi.9153:

daft inquisitor.1605:

Thiefz.3695:

Just a small follow-up on my post from last page. We have a TON of currencies. Just look at the wallet and you will see just how much we have. If you are going to do something token based please use existing currencies. Half the currencies I don’t even use.

Well, the only problem with that is that so many of those currencies are for dungeons. I mean, almost exclusively all of them are.

There might not really be a good way to adopt dungeon currencies to other areas. You could open them up and make them a “global currency” for a zone (Ascalonain Tears being the Ascalon/Charr currency, for example), but then you’ll have an issue with people NOT running dungeons for the currencies anymore (since they can buy dungeon gear from doing “regular content”), so dungeons will become almost empty and obsolete.

Though, I suppose a way around that would be to make dungeons drop significantly more tokens, but you’d also have to jack up the token prices on dungeon gear to accommodate that, which some players might not be happy about…

I think dungeons need to do 2 things: convert to a universal token shared across all of the dungeons and rework the way tokens are distributed from dungeons so that they aren’t given out in big chunks that encourage speedrunning the bosses. Tokens should be cumulative so that every enemy killed in a dungeon adds to an exponential token curve. If you kill a boss without killing any other enemies in the dungeon you should get 5 tokens. If you kill a boss after clearing all the previous enemies and trash mobs, you should get 20 tokens. If you kill a single trash mob you should get 0-1 token. If you kill every trash mob you see in the dungeon you should get 2-5 tokens per mob with token drop drop chance (on regular mobs) between 10% and up to 75%, again depending on how many mobs you’ve killed.

This would eliminate dungeon speedrunning and zerging and thus balance out the dungeon experience that is currently so hostile to new (or sub-80) players and focused on L80 Zerk Exp ONLY!™

This frustrates me to listen to. There is no problem with that mentality — the problem is with people not understanding how to use the LFG tool properly, as well as people wanting to run content like this without thinking of joining a dungeon guild. 99% of the problems with “speed runners” could be solved by people adding USEFUL DESCRIPTIONS to their LFG queue, but a lot of people don’t.

If you’re new to dungeons, start up your own queue with something like “new to dungeon” or something like that. If the speedrunners see that, they aren’t going to join your queue, so no need to worry about the “hostile environment”. Similarly, if you want to start to run dungeons, there’s no harm in joining a guild and running with them. Even if you quit the guild eventually, guilds are a great way to experience new content in a nonhostile environment.

Dungeon speedruns themselves are not the problem. Lack of proper communication is the problem.

The game already has plenty of ‘tokens’ – they’re called crafting materials.

The crafting system doesn’t take full advantage of this and has some clear holes that stymie progress – but the token system is already very clearly in place.

Ayrilana.1396:

Roybe.5896:

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.

RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.

This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.

there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.

I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.

You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.

Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.

It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.

You misunderstood what was being discussed. Of course everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand. That’s undeniable. What I was arguing is that not all items should or have to be at that point. Precursors were intended to be incredibly rare. So of course their supply level will not equal the demand level. This gap was intended.

Perhaps I could have worded it better. Does the following change portray my intent more clearly? The changes are in bold.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must be at an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

Equilibrium is the point at which supply meets demand. The equilibrium point met=price. Equilibrium changes based on both supply and demand, creating a new point of equilibrium. I am still not sure what you are saying. Price is driven down by overproduction while demand remains fixed. Price is also driven down as demand wanes and production remains fixed. Equilibrium is the point where these two factors meet.

This market allows for both of these issues to change based on player whim, so equilibrium points change over time..this is volatility. So I think what you are saying is that volatility does not need to be controlled and fluctuation in price is an example of a healthy market. Yes, you are correct! Sorry for my long windedness.

Ensign.2189:

The game already has plenty of ‘tokens’ – they’re called crafting materials.

The crafting system doesn’t take full advantage of this and has some clear holes that stymie progress – but the token system is already very clearly in place.

I’ve always liked the idea of crafting being more useful, but there have been some quirks in execution that can be frustrating, even then:

Soldier/Dire/etc gear. Need the gear to the dowels to make the gear. This has yet to be fixed.
Celestial gear. Need a recipe that follows every other “discovery” path to make each piece. The inconsistency is bonus.
Ascended Gear. Silk. Enough said.
The introduction of Foxfire Clusters sank Elder Wood.
Time gating. Bad.

So yeah, the above examples make me worry that using crafting or crafting materials in new ways isn’t going to play out in a way that feels rewarding.

- -

Unrelated to the above, I’m sensing there’s some confusion on how a token system would work. The goal is to offset “misses” or “losses” on loot rolls with something that indicates progress toward the desired reward. This does not exclude other players getting that “lucky drop” and getting the reward early.

If there’s a concern about farming, then the tokens can be given once per day, which also makes for a convenient time-gate on how soon the reward should be avialable. Get 100 tokens, you’ve waited a sufficiently long enough time that you deserve something for the time invested.

- -

Additionally unrelated, I’m curious to see where the idea for PvE reward tracks might go.

John Smith.4610:

Cakemeister.5792:

I just want magic find to make a difference.

Magic find makes a huge difference.

No it doesn’t.

I literally had about 200 more magic find than about 5 other people (between boosters, etc) when running around with them, and I saw maybe 2 rares while 2 of them got precursors that night in WvW. Magic find makes no difference.

Roybe.5896:

Ayrilana.1396:

Roybe.5896:

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.

RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.

This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.

there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.

I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.

You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.

Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.

It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.

You misunderstood what was being discussed. Of course everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand. That’s undeniable. What I was arguing is that not all items should or have to be at that point. Precursors were intended to be incredibly rare. So of course their supply level will not equal the demand level. This gap was intended.

Perhaps I could have worded it better. Does the following change portray my intent more clearly? The changes are in bold.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must be at an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

Equilibrium is the point at which supply meets demand. The equilibrium point met=price. Equilibrium changes based on both supply and demand, creating a new point of equilibrium. I am still not sure what you are saying. Price is driven down by overproduction while demand remains fixed. Price is also driven down as demand wanes and production remains fixed. Equilibrium is the point where these two factors meet.

This market allows for both of these issues to change based on player whim, so equilibrium points change over time..this is volatility. So I think what you are saying is that volatility does not need to be controlled and fluctuation in price is an example of a healthy market. Yes, you are correct! Sorry for my long windedness.

I was using the term in the same way the poster was using it which was likely confusing to other people. I just didn’t want to get into another debate about the definition of a term so I didn’t correct them. I should’ve stopped using it in the way that they did when discussing it with you, but I didn’t. Sorry about the confusion.

What I was arguing was simply the disparity between the amount of precursors that enter the game versus the amount that people want as a whole. I could have argued elasticities but I didn’t want to get into it. All I was arguing is that more people want precursors than what are created in the game.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

John Smith.4610:

Cakemeister.5792:

I just want magic find to make a difference.

Magic find makes a huge difference.

No it doesn’t.

I literally had about 200 more magic find than about 5 other people (between boosters, etc) when running around with them, and I saw maybe 2 rares while 2 of them got precursors that night in WvW. Magic find makes no difference.

It makes a significant difference, but your example of using precursors is flawed, because they have an insanely low drop rate to begin with. Theirs was an instance of incredibly good luck, not of being boosted into good drops with Magic Find.

John Smith.4610:

Cakemeister.5792:

I just want magic find to make a difference.

Magic find makes a huge difference.

In what way does it make a huge difference?

At around 90%-100% rares actually started dropping … rarely. Feels like this should have been the baseline to begin with.

At around 200% … nothing really changed. Rares are still dropping rarely.

500% was interesting during the Southsun event but that was skewed by more focused farming efforts. Continued farming at the same locations after the event ended and the 500% was no longer accessible seems to indicate that those items simply had higher base rates.

Exotic drops are still mostly non-existent. When they do “drop” it is usually from champion boxes or world boss chests. Neither of those are supposed to be affected by MF.

What is your definiteion of “huge”?

Khisanth.2948:

In what way does it make a huge difference?

At around 90%-100% rares actually started dropping … rarely. Feels like this should have been the baseline to begin with.

At around 200% … nothing really changed. Rares are still dropping rarely.

500% was interesting during the Southsun event but that was skewed by more focused farming efforts. Continued farming at the same locations after the event ended and the 500% was no longer accessible seems to indicate that those items simply had higher base rates.

Exotic drops are still mostly non-existent. When they do “drop” it is usually from champion boxes or world boss chests. Neither of those are supposed to be affected by MF.

What is your definiteion of “huge”?

If you buy one lottery ticket and I buy two lottery tickets, I’ve got twice as many chances to win the lottery as you do. Percentwise, that’s huge. Since we’re dealing with a lottery though, the odds of either of us winning is still incredibly small.

Huge is a relative term.

Point is, as has been said. Because the base system is random with a fairly low chance of anything interesting happening, Its going to be imperceptible even with 300% difference in drops.
If you only get rares once every couple days, when you get two, you dont know if your in a cluster, or perhaps it was the extra MF kicking in.

random they use here, is just too random, chances are too low, and very little choice in what type of gambles you are taking. The game is too focused on aquiring mass quanitities of junk.

Change from an RNG system to an entropy system. Such a system starts with a random seed but then operates in a deterministic fashion. In short the User experience is exactly the same, just occurring at different times based upon the random seed.

An entropy system would require each account to store the current entropy value(s), so it is never lost. This is required because some entropy loops will be very large for low drop rate items.

What this means is that every player will have a precursor drop within X-units. Some players will see that drop sooner rather than later, but all players will see it within X-units. The entropy loop repeats infinitely so after another X-units you’ll see a second drop.

The algorithm which computes and tracks “units” is proprietary so the system cannot be gamed. Keep in mind this doesn’t mean two players will receive drop in the same “time frame” because “units” will typically not include a time component (i.e. you can’t increment your entropy loop by sitting at the BLTP agent scrolling through buy orders).

There are multiple entropy loops. You have a loop for rares, another for exotics, another for precursors, individual loops for dungeons, etc.. Each loop has it’s own threshold and random seed.

Anyway, this is just the basic explanation of such a system. It appears random (i.e. pseudo-random) but eliminates the curve. The devil is in the unit algorithm for such a system.

EDIT: There can be an RNG system that works in parallel to the entropy system. This no longer guarantees an equal player experience, but does give some of that “I won the lottery” feel.

IMPORTANT: This system doesn’t punish players who get a drop. It just ensures a consistent experience that achieves a quality threshold. Anything above that threshold with a secondary RNG component is gravy. Keep in mind a secondary RNG component that trounces the entropy mechanic means you still have a primary RNG system. In other words, X-units for a precursor cannot be something that takes a dedicated player 10 years to complete (extreme example just to illustrate the point).

Sariel V.7024:

Iason Evan.3806:

The Mystic Forge needs to kick out items that are equal to or above the level of the items you put in.

The current state of the Mystic Forge is like Elementalists at game launch. Players think it sucks and don’t bother to explore it for its potential, because it doesn’t appear to be immediately rewarding. The saddest thing is…. well, that would be telling, and I’ve learned to keep my secrets.

Players that know what they are doing will still do well with it, and might even do it a little more cheaply than before the change since they can act on current player prejudice.

Your reply to me has zero to do with what I was talking about. All I am saying is that a good start would be if you throw all level 75 items in for example, all items that Zommoros gives you back would be level 75 or higher. That is how it used to be. It was changed. It’s a bad change and I am expressing my opinion on it. You commenting that you have unlocked the secrets of the Mystic Forge has nothing to do with what I was talking about. More so because of the condescending nature of your comment.

Iason Evan.3806:

Sariel V.7024:

Iason Evan.3806:

The Mystic Forge needs to kick out items that are equal to or above the level of the items you put in.

The current state of the Mystic Forge is like Elementalists at game launch. Players think it sucks and don’t bother to explore it for its potential, because it doesn’t appear to be immediately rewarding. The saddest thing is…. well, that would be telling, and I’ve learned to keep my secrets.

Players that know what they are doing will still do well with it, and might even do it a little more cheaply than before the change since they can act on current player prejudice.

Your reply to me has zero to do with what I was talking about. All I am saying is that a good start would be if you throw all level 75 items in for example, all items that Zommoros gives you back would be level 75 or higher. That is how it used to be. It was changed. It’s a bad change and I am expressing my opinion on it. You commenting that you have unlocked the secrets of the Mystic Forge has nothing to do with what I was talking about. More so because of the condescending nature of your comment.

That was actually a good change. It opened up a lot more access to different skins, many of which are more valuable than the level 80 items that you used to get.

When you consider that it in no way reduces your ability to forge for a precursor, it is an overall OK change.

mtpelion.4562:

Iason Evan.3806:

Sariel V.7024:

Iason Evan.3806:

The Mystic Forge needs to kick out items that are equal to or above the level of the items you put in.

The current state of the Mystic Forge is like Elementalists at game launch. Players think it sucks and don’t bother to explore it for its potential, because it doesn’t appear to be immediately rewarding. The saddest thing is…. well, that would be telling, and I’ve learned to keep my secrets.

Players that know what they are doing will still do well with it, and might even do it a little more cheaply than before the change since they can act on current player prejudice.

Your reply to me has zero to do with what I was talking about. All I am saying is that a good start would be if you throw all level 75 items in for example, all items that Zommoros gives you back would be level 75 or higher. That is how it used to be. It was changed. It’s a bad change and I am expressing my opinion on it. You commenting that you have unlocked the secrets of the Mystic Forge has nothing to do with what I was talking about. More so because of the condescending nature of your comment.

That was actually a good change. It opened up a lot more access to different skins, many of which are more valuable than the level 80 items that you used to get.

When you consider that it in no way reduces your ability to forge for a precursor, it is an overall OK change.

Again, not the point. Nothing about what I said there had anything to do with precursors. If I wanted a level 63 skin, I am not gonna throw in level 65 stuff. I am gonna throw in stuff from level 59 or so to level 63. I don’t want to throw in level 80 stuff and get kicked back a bunch of level 78 gear. Super yuck.

Ayrilana.1396:

Roybe.5896:

Ayrilana.1396:

Roybe.5896:

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

I do want to point out that we need to be very careful with any system suggested that relies less on RNG and more on doing some particular number of tasks. My minds jumbled at the moment so i can’t think of a better way to describe it.

RNG slows down the flow of supply as players cannot target a specific set of tasks to obtain a particular item. If players have an option to farm X event Y number of times to get Z item, you’ll have a greater influx of supply for that item which could potentially disrupt the market for it as well as those that rely on it.

This may have been what you meant by “flatten the experience”, but I just wanted to make sure.

there is no real logical reason why a player should not be able to target a specific set of tasks in order to get a specific item. There are many methods of limiting output without random. To be honest random is one of the worst means of limiting output. However, i think the strength of random is, surprise, and the possibility of coming out ahead.

I would not eliminate random, however aside from streak breaking mechanics, i think that specific methods that are slower, with limited output also can work well when properly designed into content.

You may have never played gw1, but they had a zone called domain of anguish, beating each submission had a guaranteed way to get tokens, but also you could get random tokens from enemies in the zone. The random tokens was exciting when you got it, and made it interesting, but the tokens for beating an area made it so worst case scenario by defeating the area, you could achieve something.

Like i said, if players could target specific tasks, they could greatly increase the supply of an item. This could devastate a lot of markets. Having RNG slows down the rate at which they acquire these items.

It would balance them more based on players instead of the rng chance. The items would come into equilibrium to real value since production could be altered to meet demand like irl. Once equilibrium is met, players slow on targeting those items…thus balance.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must have an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

In an economic discussion, everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand, ceteris parabis.

You misunderstood what was being discussed. Of course everything has an equilibrium between supply and demand. That’s undeniable. What I was arguing is that not all items should or have to be at that point. Precursors were intended to be incredibly rare. So of course their supply level will not equal the demand level. This gap was intended.

Perhaps I could have worded it better. Does the following change portray my intent more clearly? The changes are in bold.

You’re going under the assumption that all items must be at an equilibrium between supply and demand. This isn’t true.

Equilibrium is the point at which supply meets demand. The equilibrium point met=price. Equilibrium changes based on both supply and demand, creating a new point of equilibrium. I am still not sure what you are saying. Price is driven down by overproduction while demand remains fixed. Price is also driven down as demand wanes and production remains fixed. Equilibrium is the point where these two factors meet.

This market allows for both of these issues to change based on player whim, so equilibrium points change over time..this is volatility. So I think what you are saying is that volatility does not need to be controlled and fluctuation in price is an example of a healthy market. Yes, you are correct! Sorry for my long windedness.

I was using the term in the same way the poster was using it which was likely confusing to other people. I just didn’t want to get into another debate about the definition of a term so I didn’t correct them. I should’ve stopped using it in the way that they did when discussing it with you, but I didn’t. Sorry about the confusion.

What I was arguing was simply the disparity between the amount of precursors that enter the game versus the amount that people want as a whole. I could have argued elasticities but I didn’t want to get into it. All I was arguing is that more people want precursors than what are created in the game.

You’re over complicating something that was simple, something you misunderstood and assumed (<—-key) was one way. You know what they say about assuming….

mtpelion.4562:

That was actually a good change. It opened up a lot more access to different skins, many of which are more valuable than the level 80 items that you used to get.

When you consider that it in no way reduces your ability to forge for a precursor, it is an overall OK change.

Slight nit – it doesn’t open up new skins (they’re all lower level version of common forge skins or the basic skin), but it gives weapons with a wider variety of sigils – and more sigils on the whole.

It has essentially no impact on the ability to forge precursors and has done wonders for the crafting markets by making Pearls less common.

The biggest problem comes from people ignorant enough to throw 4 80 exotics into the forge an complain that they got a 78 back (even though it sells for almost exactly as much as an 80 exotic, and who throws 4 80s into the forge anyway).

Nope. We were talking about supply and what I said falls right in line with that. We weren’t talking about the gap between buy and sell orders.

If that’s what you want believe go for it. It’ll make you happier

Essence Snow.3194:

If that’s what you want believe go for it. It’ll make you happier

If this is how you want to end the discussion then sure. It, however, doesn’t mean that you’re right and it’s anything but constructive.

Illuminerdi.9153:

John Smith.4610:

Cakemeister.5792:

I just want magic find to make a difference.

Magic find makes a huge difference.

It might make a difference numerically, but frankly, to me it doesn’t feel at all like it does.

My MF is something like +50% (before boosts, guild bonus, etc) at the moment and upping it is a complete slog; clicking on essences of luck has become a chore, but the real problem is how slow upping MF goes. I understand why we can’t just allow people to zoom their MF up to the max, but because it takes weeks or months to make significant progress in MF increase it stops feeling like it matters that much. By the time you get to 300% you forget what 50% felt like because it was hundreds or thousands of hours (gameplay time) ago – months and months of “real life” time.

This has 2 problems – 1) it means that by the time your MF is high enough to feel rewarding, you’ve played the game so freaking long that you probably don’t need or care about drops anymore, you’re probably bursting at the seams with money and legendaries, and 2) it stopped having any meaning long ago.

I’m not saying that MF should be converted to the “big spikes but less frequent” method that was similarly done with stats and levels, but I think that the way Essence of Luck is distributed should change. I feel like it would work better if salvaging gear should only produce “appropriate” levels of EoL; At lower levels players are happy to get Fine or Masterwork EoL, but once your account’s MF hits a high enough level, remove Fine and Masterwork from the (visible) equation and start tracking them automatically and silently and when a player hits the 100/200/500 mark, have the next item they salvage automatically pop a Rare/Exotic/Legendary EoL, that way I can at least feel like I’m contributing a big “jump” in my Luck every time I get EoL rather than it eventually turning into a horrible click grind.

Did you know that I would have to click almost half a million Fine EoL’s to get to 300% MF? That’s one million clicks of my mouse when you factor in the need to double click EoL.

That’s absurd. Clicking on Fine or Masterwork EoL is fun at lower levels, but they quickly become nothing more than wasted time/inventory space. Ditch them. In fact, you might want to just ditch them at all levels, and just make it more exciting for lowbies to get big chunks of luck. It moves so fast a lower levels anyway that I don’t think it less frequent (but larger) increases in MF would really hurt the experience; if anything it might temper the expectation for later so that when they hit “the wall” it feels a lot less pronounced.

Um don’t you know you can turn all those fine and master work ones into rares and exotic ones using artificer lv0?

You don’t lose any or gain any, it just makes them into the bigger ones making it less time to use.

Magic Find, how I see it, is like a multiplier. It’ll have a more noticeable impact on something the higher the drop rate is. A x3 increase to a drop rate of 20% will be more noticeable than the same increase to a drop rate of 1%.

Personally, I’m more inclined to a system that adjusts the loot table according to what player gets. Let’s say that you start your first Boss fight with the same chances at an exotic you have now. If you get one – great; if not, than the chances of you getting an exotic increases until you get an exotic drop, at which point the “counter” resets.
You could also implement some sort of “real karma”, that alters these chances in favor of the player for any succesful event they participated in. It doesn’t have do be a big bump in the numbers, but should increase the chance at an exotic faster than what it would’ve done if you just got loot. I think this will also solve all the intentioned event failing, as players will have an incentive to complete them.

P.S: there should be a tracker to anything from rare to exotic and ascended, with the starting chances adjusted, of course.

P.S2: Items like precursor should not ‘drop from any mob’. They should be limited to champions/dungeons’ bosses/event bosses and have their drop chance altered to reflect that. I mean, come on! How can you loot a GS from a moa???

People aren’t seeing the benefit of MF because they are being selective in their assessment. Over time, higher MF does yield more equivalent gold relative to a lower MF. If your complaint is that MF doesn’t affect loot because of the content you play, that’s hardly an issue … Anet doesn’t force you to play in a way that ensures MF is getting you the highest benefit. That choice is from the player.

What might be more reasonable … perhaps MF COULD be more widely applicable, especially for opening bags.

RNG is bad.
Here is why:

• The time you need to get the item you want is RNG based. This is less appealing than a clear goal you can work towards to.
• RNG limits diversity. Regions in GW2 can’t stand out from one another because you can basically get everything from everywhere. This is one of the reasons why the open PvE feels so utterly redundant.
• RNG is aggravating. If you get Dusk with the first try but spend 1000g only to get the harpoon precursor, you will always remember the 1000g before the Dusk drop.
• RNG creates unwanted loot. This fuels the traiding post. Because everything is on the traiding post, people start to grind gold instead of going for the RNG chance themselves and the game turns into a goldgrind (<— current state).
• RNG gets abused currently. Any bag in the game is RNG². First you have to get the bag, then you have to get what you want. Black Lion Chests are a gamble.
• RNG is a cheap but messy way to bind players to the game. Please prove us this game is worth supporting by limiting RNG.

I would love to know the comparisons between the person furthest to the right on the distribution, at the ‘top’ of the distribution, and the furthest to the left on the distribution.

i.e “best” RNG (Vol amirite?), avg RNG, “worst” RNG.

I promise I won’t cry

I don’t think this would happen with Megaservers. Quite the contrary I believe: instead of having 6 or 7 versions/Megaserver-maps of Orr, where everyone farms the best stuff, people would go from Orr to the other zones which would get more crowded and Orr would still have enough players for 1-2 full maps.

I’m not sure whether you’re on NA or EU, but on NA it’s become almost impossible to get T6 runs together for Dry Top anymore. We try to organize at least a couple runs on Friday nights, but I never see it about T5 on other days of the week, and rarely above 4. And that’s with ONE map that works that way, of which I doubt there are more than a couple of copies running at any given time. If even a half-dozen maps worked that way I doubt you could ever get to an organized, max-capable version of the map without heavy pre-planning.

Darmikau.9413:

Dehuang.2053:

Fractals are not a good example of a good RNG reward system imo, I know a lot of people who just gave up with fractals, my fractal group disbanded too because it was just not worth the daily 2 hours when we only have around 0.0015% chance to end up with the skin you want

That’s exactly why Fractals are a great RNG system. Same as Dungeons chests in GW1, or getting lodestones from chests in GW2. Don’t mistake me for thinking that Fractal rewards couldn’t be better. They can and should be given the effort they take. But as an RNG system they do exactly what they’re supposed to do: Give just enough of a reward that players go again, believing “if I do one more run maybe I’ll get the skin.”

Of course, people will vocally complain that they quit Fractals, or that they’re so unlucky they can never get the skin they want, but I’ve never met a person who actually ‘quit’ Fractals. They still run them, even if it’s occasionally.

You can only string people along for so long …

RNG in this game is demoralizing.

Super ultra rare drop items should not be part of a collection.

Ive got a character parked at Rhendak trying to get his signet. I cant use the character because it is such a pain to get in there every day to do the event. Every day Im in there with 20 other people killing that guy. I have not seen one exotic signet drop yet.

How many times will I have to run Arah or do the wizard event to get that exotic drop? 100?, 500? or will never happen?

As for precursers, it already has been demonstrated that the best way to get one is by farming gold and buying on the TP. Nevermind just getting any one to drop at all. The stars and the planets have to align perfectly along with the sun and the moon for you not only to get one, but to actually get the one you want to make.

John Smith.4610:

- snip -

1. Use a specifically non-random NG. The NRNG functions similarly to a RNG, but has characteristics that either squish the distribution so that outliers exist much less or specifically manipulate a player’s experience for loot in a more complicated way that makes it feel rewarding.

2. Implement measures that counteract low-end outlier behavior inside of game design. This would be a system that is something like: If player hasn’t received a rare drop in X time send them Y tickets for random drops.

2.5: “Add secondary reward mechanisms (ie. token based system) alongside the primary RNG system; allow progress to be made even when you don’t get the result you want.”

This 2.5 sounds really good option, what John Smith have given to us. It is even that kind of option what Anet could use for all expensive items. But there should be some restrictions in this token system. If players are using tokens to buy precursor, it should be soulbound. Still it is affecting prices of precursors.

This token system could be use forexample to get:

• Precursor
• Ascended items (weapons and armors)
• Legendaries

And how to get those tokens? It would be nice, if they are not random drop. Players could get them by finishing events. All events are giving 1 – 10 copper token / day / account randomly. Meaning if you are doing 10 events you might get 10 – 100 copper tokens. But avoiding to make token trains, it should be that event is dropping 1 – 10 token / day / account. So player need to explore whole world to get more of these tokens.

What kind of token there should be then? If there are more expensive items what you can buy with these tokens, there should be more different kind of tokens what you can exchange more expensive ones in vendor who is changing tokens to the items. (Like Zaishen system in GW1) There might be tokens like:

• Copper tokens
• Siver tokens
• Gold tokens
• Diamond tokens

Exchange rate could be like this:
250 Copper tokens = 1 Silver token
250 Silver tokens = 1 Gold token
250 Gold token = 1 Diamond token

How about prizing then, what does cost those items:

• 250 Silver tokens = Precursor
• 250 Gold tokens = Ascended item
• 250 Diamond tokens = Legendary weapon

Ok, I know, I have risen rage in all other players now to give this suggestion, but Anet is only one who are making this system true, if it is ever make it true.

I’d like to have a dynamic magic find value based on your actions during an event. Events should track much more than a bit of participation, so that your effort and skill reflects your reward-chance.

example:

• you dodge attacks during the event (can already be tracked as it’s part of some daily achievements)
• you don’t fall below 50% health during the event
• you accomplish an optional goal (e.g. participate in killing 4 veterans)
• you accomplish an optional goal (e.g. the friendly npc musn’t go down once)

all these and more should be tracked. Events should give an extra reward when finished based on your tracked actions/accomplishments.

So basically this means that events should be given bonus objectives and a new UI should track your actions to allow greater rewards (choose 1 of 3 items which are influenced by a dynamic magic find which is based on your doings)

This would allow for a temporary much higher magic find value so that you feel the difference, not only know there should be a difference on paper. Also being able to choose 1 of 3 possible items increases the chance to get something useful.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Did you know that I would have to click almost half a million Fine EoL’s to get to 300% MF? That’s one million clicks of my mouse when you factor in the need to double click EoL.

That’s absurd. Clicking on Fine or Masterwork EoL is fun at lower levels, but they quickly become nothing more than wasted time/inventory space. Ditch them. In fact, you might want to just ditch them at all levels, and just make it more exciting for lowbies to get big chunks of luck. It moves so fast a lower levels anyway that I don’t think it less frequent (but larger) increases in MF would really hurt the experience; if anything it might temper the expectation for later so that when they hit “the wall” it feels a lot less pronounced.

Just want to note, artificer can turn all those to exotic pretty quickly. But yeah, the clicking needs to be cut down a lot.

I honestly don’t understand why the game is so much RNG-based right now.

I remember when the dungeon token was created the whole point was so that players could have the meaningful dungeon rewards without being prey to RNG.

After that however – with the future updates they seemed to forget all about tokens and throw us in the hands of RNG.
Really odd.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

example:

• you dodge attacks during the event (can already be tracked as it’s part of some daily achievements)
• you don’t fall below 50% health during the event
• you accomplish an optional goal (e.g. participate in killing 4 veterans)
• you accomplish an optional goal (e.g. the friendly npc musn’t go down once)

This would work like a combo streak system… That has the potential to be very fun!
At least I hear that it is usually fun in games that have a combo that if unbroken you get more points or whatever.
But that can be veeery complex to implement. Like, expansion-pack complex.
Also, it has to be thought about a lot before implementing, considering how people are always trying to not do content/get carried by the zerg to get achievements, and ArenaNet has to point a laser at our heads because of that (my example is the Prime Hologram fight).

Dry Top already has a very simplified version of this, but it only affects the Zephirites favor, not person rewards, and is usually focused in only one special objective (bonus favor if person X does not die).

I have a few questions.

• Are Black Lion Weapon skins considered a form of a reward?

• Are Gem Shop armor skins and costumes also considered a form of a reward?

I ask because it has been discussed many times on these forums. One person will say, "The rewards need to be better in this game. We don’t get enough new skins. What they mean is; They don’t think we get enough new skins as rewards in PvE as compared with the amount of new skins we get in the gem shop. It’s valid for someone to say, “Well, you can go play the game, earn gold, and then buy what you want on the BLTC.” I totally concur. You can do that.

There is an issue though when converting gold you earn to gems to buy what you want on the gem shop: Inflation. The amount of playing I have to do now as opposed to a year ago has increased a lot. I don’t know the actual percentages but it feels like gems purchased with gold have gone up 100%. I used to buy 5 Black Lion Keys with 25-35g. That felt reasonable when I looked at my play time and gold earned and then converting that to 450 gems. It’s now usually in the 55-65g range. 800 gems for an armor set now when using gold is asinine. The reward no longer fits the cost as a reasonable thing. This is fine if you are still adding armor skins to earn in PvE. This totally leads to players feeling that the game is not as rewarding to play as it used to be. Couple that with rewards being lessened in seasonal events like Halloween and The Pavilion and farming materials being more rewarding than actual rewards players can use and it has lead to a frustrating experience.

If Gold:Gem conversion is going to inflate so much and Gem Shop Armor and Weapon skins are considered rewards, maybe make those purchases a little sweeter.

I for one know I don’t like having to earn twice as much gold due to inflation to get the same type of thing on the gem shop that I got last year. It’s understandable that this is one of many causes for the game feeling less rewarding along with RNG being so skewed toward the house.

Iason Evan.3806:

There is an issue though when converting gold you earn to gems to buy what you want on the gem shop: Inflation. The amount of playing I have to do now as opposed to a year ago has increased a lot. I don’t know the actual percentages but it feels like gems purchased with gold have gone up 100%.

Actually, if you look at it, you’ll see that not only is the price increase very linear overall, but that the price of Gems in terms of Gold has roughly tripled in the past year.

Also, since the rising of Gem prices is linear, that means the change is constant. That already tells you that things are under control. After all, you can’t expect Gems to not inflate, since the supply of Gold is infinite. Having a linear price increase is the second best possible scenario and far, far better than the next alternative. Namely, exponential increase. Now that would mean everyone is screwed. On the other hand, achieving the best case scenario of a logarithmic growth isn’t feasible without extreme regulation, e.g. far, far stronger, completely unavoidable coin sinks and some gem faucets.

I for one know I don’t like having to earn twice as much gold due to inflation to get the same type of thing on the gem shop that I got last year. It’s understandable that this is one of many causes for the game feeling less rewarding along with RNG being so skewed toward the house.

Things have to increase in price. If they don’t, that means that the supplies are being generated and taken away at the same pace. And that’s just not feasible, since you can’t have everyone paying the same expenses while the amount of “income” varies greatly. The other option would be variable coin sinks, but that’s not going to work, since the richest people in the game have all of their wealth in goods rather than currency. Not to mention that making sure that no one cheats by sending their currency away would be impossible.

Iason Evan.3806:

If Gold:Gem conversion is going to inflate so much and Gem Shop Armor and Weapon skins are considered rewards, maybe make those purchases a little sweeter.

I for one know I don’t like having to earn twice as much gold due to inflation to get the same type of thing on the gem shop that I got last year.

I would like to look at this discussion of inflation vs. RNG a little closer. First we need to look at definitions for both these terms

Wiki says:

In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. (Ceteris Paribis)

Proper pricing is decided at a point on the supply/demand curve when they are in equilibrium.

So, when we examine the pricing of gems, what increases are based on the money supply and what increases are based on supply/demand?

Early in MMO’s things are very interesting in markets, because coin is in short supply and no one knows what will be in demand. There does come a point of inflationary stresses within the system just because more coin is freely generated and not removed from the overall economy. As the player base starts to find ways to get more coin, eventually the amount of coin will stabilize. As well as the market. That is what John’s ultimate job is. To be sure that the amount of coin in game remains stable.

I do not believe the prices of gems to gold, or any other price in game, are currently related to inflation. Consider gems to gold a measure of how many are playing the ‘avoid paying cash game’ compared to those that pay cash. The more people that are playing the game with avoidance to the cash shop, the higher the demand for gems, the higher the price. The lower the demand for gems the lower the price (these being true IF gem sales hold steady). Conversely, if people convert gems to gold, it creates downwards pressure on price.

Now, RNG related to this is interesting. Rarity in the face of high demand creates HUGE disparities in pricing. Look at the price of leather, compared to precursors, compared to legendaries. 1000%‘s of difference. This is not inflationary….this is simple supply and demand. ’Fixing’ the RNG to remove any part of the left hand side of the normal distribution will have an effect on overall pricing, not because there is deflationary pressures, but because those items will become less rare.

Meglobob.8620:

John Smith.4610:

or not rewarded at all. These individuals become sample cases and spotlights for experiences that maybe shouldn’t exist.

This is me…NOT REWARDED AT ALL

Its one of the reasons I do not play GW2 much any more…my steam catalogue of games plus Diablo 3 are FAR, FAR MORE REWARDING. I feel any time I spend playing GW2 to be a utter and complete waste, with zero forward progression for anyone of my characters. The only exceptions are fractals, where you go up ranks and WvW ranks, where you can build your ranks and get a regular chest reward too.

I have played 1,500-2,000 hrs of GW2, NEVER HAD A PRECURSOR DROP, you should be ashamed of yourself John Smith for such a crap reward system.

John Smith.4610:

2Add secondary reward mechanisms (ie. token based system) alongside the primary RNG system; allow progress to be made even when you don’t get the result you want.

This is the reward system I most like…just set a price on something and I will collect the tokens and pick my own reward. Don’t make it a secondary reward system, scrap RNG completely and just have all rewards token based.

Ocassionally, often during festivals you have the tokens, collect reward from the vendor, that’s when I personally play GW2 the most, because I actually have a reason to play the game, a goal…

1500-2000 hours without a precursor drop is a common them among most players. My first precursor drop (which was from WvW) was after I had played over 4500 hours on my MAIN account. The second precursor drop (which was from the mystic forge) was after my MAIN account had over 5500 hours racked up. And I have a few alt accounts with about 2500 hours up in total with no precursor drop.

nirvana.8245:

1500-2000 hours without a precursor drop is a common them among most players. My first precursor drop (which was from WvW) was after I had played over 4500 hours on my MAIN account. The second precursor drop (which was from the mystic forge) was after my MAIN account had over 5500 hours racked up. And I have a few alt accounts with about 2500 hours up in total with no precursor drop.

I am not sure what point our trying to make here…

But what % of players have clocked 4,500+ hrs up on there account who played GW2? Chances are its like 0.9% or less…and if you told me that before I bought GW2 or even hinted that was the case, I would have avoided GW2 like the plague and not bought it.

I suspect a lot of players would have done the same and avoided wasting there gaming time.

At least we know what kind of RNG to expect from Anet in the future and can avoid buying any future products from them.

Closing in on 8,000 hours without one here (7,859). So it definitely gets worse….lol

Iason Evan.3806:

I have a few questions.

• Are Black Lion Weapon skins considered a form of a reward?

• Are Gem Shop armor skins and costumes also considered a form of a reward?

I ask because it has been discussed many times on these forums. One person will say, "The rewards need to be better in this game. We don’t get enough new skins. What they mean is; They don’t think we get enough new skins as rewards in PvE as compared with the amount of new skins we get in the gem shop. It’s valid for someone to say, “Well, you can go play the game, earn gold, and then buy what you want on the BLTC.” I totally concur. You can do that.

There is an issue though when converting gold you earn to gems to buy what you want on the gem shop: Inflation. The amount of playing I have to do now as opposed to a year ago has increased a lot. I don’t know the actual percentages but it feels like gems purchased with gold have gone up 100%. I used to buy 5 Black Lion Keys with 25-35g. That felt reasonable when I looked at my play time and gold earned and then converting that to 450 gems. It’s now usually in the 55-65g range. 800 gems for an armor set now when using gold is asinine. The reward no longer fits the cost as a reasonable thing. This is fine if you are still adding armor skins to earn in PvE. This totally leads to players feeling that the game is not as rewarding to play as it used to be. Couple that with rewards being lessened in seasonal events like Halloween and The Pavilion and farming materials being more rewarding than actual rewards players can use and it has lead to a frustrating experience.

If Gold:Gem conversion is going to inflate so much and Gem Shop Armor and Weapon skins are considered rewards, maybe make those purchases a little sweeter.

I for one know I don’t like having to earn twice as much gold due to inflation to get the same type of thing on the gem shop that I got last year. It’s understandable that this is one of many causes for the game feeling less rewarding along with RNG being so skewed toward the house.

I call BS on the whole Gem Shop armor argument. Take a look at your wardrobe. Just look at chest pieces for one weight. How many of those are Gem Shop Only? How many are not? Problem is players simply discount the ones you can get from content. How many of those, ones from content or crafting, don’t you (general you) have unlocked yet? Now I would agree that nearly all new skins show up at the Gem Shop rather than in content.

As for the Gem Shop and the exchange rate. First the shop’s purpose is cash first. I know some players hate microtransactions but welcome to 21st century gaming. Second the ever increasing exchange rate of gold to gems does suck excess gold out of the game economy, even if the bulk is only temporary (selling gems for gold). Less gold out in the world means less general inflation overall.

Behellagh.1468:

Iason Evan.3806:

I have a few questions.

• Are Black Lion Weapon skins considered a form of a reward?

• Are Gem Shop armor skins and costumes also considered a form of a reward?

I ask because it has been discussed many times on these forums. One person will say, "The rewards need to be better in this game. We don’t get enough new skins. What they mean is; They don’t think we get enough new skins as rewards in PvE as compared with the amount of new skins we get in the gem shop. It’s valid for someone to say, “Well, you can go play the game, earn gold, and then buy what you want on the BLTC.” I totally concur. You can do that.

There is an issue though when converting gold you earn to gems to buy what you want on the gem shop: Inflation. The amount of playing I have to do now as opposed to a year ago has increased a lot. I don’t know the actual percentages but it feels like gems purchased with gold have gone up 100%. I used to buy 5 Black Lion Keys with 25-35g. That felt reasonable when I looked at my play time and gold earned and then converting that to 450 gems. It’s now usually in the 55-65g range. 800 gems for an armor set now when using gold is asinine. The reward no longer fits the cost as a reasonable thing. This is fine if you are still adding armor skins to earn in PvE. This totally leads to players feeling that the game is not as rewarding to play as it used to be. Couple that with rewards being lessened in seasonal events like Halloween and The Pavilion and farming materials being more rewarding than actual rewards players can use and it has lead to a frustrating experience.

If Gold:Gem conversion is going to inflate so much and Gem Shop Armor and Weapon skins are considered rewards, maybe make those purchases a little sweeter.

I for one know I don’t like having to earn twice as much gold due to inflation to get the same type of thing on the gem shop that I got last year. It’s understandable that this is one of many causes for the game feeling less rewarding along with RNG being so skewed toward the house.

I call BS on the whole Gem Shop armor argument. Take a look at your wardrobe. Just look at chest pieces for one weight. How many of those are Gem Shop Only? How many are not? Problem is players simply discount the ones you can get from content. How many of those, ones from content or crafting, don’t you (general you) have unlocked yet? Now I would agree that nearly all new skins show up at the Gem Shop rather than in content.

As for the Gem Shop and the exchange rate. First the shop’s purpose is cash first. I know some players hate microtransactions but welcome to 21st century gaming. Second the ever increasing exchange rate of gold to gems does suck excess gold out of the game economy, even if the bulk is only temporary (selling gems for gold). Less gold out in the world means less general inflation overall.

“The reward no longer fits the cost as a reasonable thing. This is fine if you are still adding armor skins to earn in PvE. This totally leads to players feeling that the game is not as rewarding to play as it used to be.”

^ This was the thrust of my post. It’s the lack of new stuff that we can earn in game by doing specific things(dungeons, fractals, bosses etc.) and the escalating cost of gems from gold. It makes me feel like the gem shop is more expensive. Where are the new dungeon sets? The new karma sets in Orr? Where is a set of Fractal Armor? Where is a token system for the fractal weapons? Throw in RNG and myriad other factors and it leads to me feeling like I am not being as rewarded as I used to be.

I would call BS on me to if I was talking about the breadth of items we have available to us since release. I am not talking about that though.

RNG was good at the start with those gold sellers out there, but now i think it is time to normalize stuff because there are no gold sellers anymore.

I never did encounter precursor drop, but some ppl got 3 in 3 days. I am farmin my T6 mats 8-10h a day plus dungeons plus world bosses. I get 1 exotic worth about 60 silver every 4 days(not counting that exotic spoon worth 10 silver from tequatl you can have it Anet if you need it). Must be born unlucky (like other 95% ppl).

Sariel V.7024:

Merus.9475:

• It seems that level 80s get a special loot table, and that loot table mostly consists of blue and green iron/soft wood weapons. The algorithm used to generate items is pretty transparent, so this equipment feels very formulaic very quickly. Level 80 characters see the same things over and over again, so it feels like characters are most likely to receive unexciting weapons – essentially, junk the game has misclassed as valuable.

You’re correct but not for the reason you think. It seems one of the side effects of increased magic find is that you are more likely to get an item that is at or near your level, rather than at or near the level of the area you are in. If you take a new character and level it up entirely in new player areas, you will see this in effect. There isn’t a loot table designed for just level 80 characters, but level 80 characters are permanently stuck at the top end of it.

The main outfall of this, of course, is that we are now awash in T5 and T6 materials, since even when players tear themselves away from the top tier farming areas, they’re still getting level 80 gear rewards. Secondary outfall is that T2-T4 materials are in short supply. This is also why collecting silver doubloons for The Juggernaut is such a drag.

I know this is taking the idea from a certain other game, but for dubloons and even some low gems, we could introduce prospecting to ore. This could also eat up some of the copper and mithril. Not to mention bring back more azurite