Guild Wars 2

I would opt for a system of option 1 and 2.5, but with an option of trade-ins for rewards.

Taking my own outlier experience as an example I’ve killed Teq about 250 times (much more than 200, less than 300) and gotten both minis 2 times, 0 hoardes.
The Tripple Wurm I’ve killed about 185 (180-190) times: 0 rifle skins, 0 chests, 1 mini (after 170 kills).

I like Tequatl but loathe the Wurms, even though the Wurm encounter itself is more enjoyable. It’s partially the gambler’s fallacy, and partially anger at the RNG nature of the loot that makes me hate it so much. I get garbage most of the time, while other people in the guild have multiple minis, and wurm armor pieces.

I don’t want to take away from their good fortune, I think any “surplus” jackpot rewards should have the option of being traded in for something else at a vendor (say any any 3 fractal skins for a skin of my own choosing, or 1 tequatl hoard for 20 champion bags), along that nature. I just ask that that my work be at least somewhat rewarded, even if it is incremental in forms of tokens.

I’m also in favour of devs taking a closer look into the “lucky/unlucky accounts” idea, because from where I’m sitting I see few people with kitten luck, many with average luck, and few with luck bordering on RNGeesus personal distribution managers. I’m sure that’s not by design, but I wish the devs would take a second look at it, make sure there are no unintended code interactions (the LA marionette achievement comes to mind).

daft inquisitor.1605:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

John Smith.4610:

Cakemeister.5792:

I just want magic find to make a difference.

Magic find makes a huge difference.

No it doesn’t.

I literally had about 200 more magic find than about 5 other people (between boosters, etc) when running around with them, and I saw maybe 2 rares while 2 of them got precursors that night in WvW. Magic find makes no difference.

It makes a significant difference, but your example of using precursors is flawed, because they have an insanely low drop rate to begin with. Theirs was an instance of incredibly good luck, not of being boosted into good drops with Magic Find.

Magic find makes 0 difference in rank up chests or champion bags from Tower/Keep Lords. That’s where you’re more likely to get a precursor than as a random drop from a killed player/veteran guard (where magic find makes a difference)

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’d like to have a dynamic magic find value based on your actions during an event. Events should track much more than a bit of participation, so that your effort and skill reflects your reward-chance.

example:

• you dodge attacks during the event (can already be tracked as it’s part of some daily achievements)
• you don’t fall below 50% health during the event
• you accomplish an optional goal (e.g. participate in killing 4 veterans)
• you accomplish an optional goal (e.g. the friendly npc musn’t go down once)

all these and more should be tracked. Events should give an extra reward when finished based on your tracked actions/accomplishments.

So basically this means that events should be given bonus objectives and a new UI should track your actions to allow greater rewards (choose 1 of 3 items which are influenced by a dynamic magic find which is based on your doings)

This would allow for a temporary much higher magic find value so that you feel the difference, not only know there should be a difference on paper. Also being able to choose 1 of 3 possible items increases the chance to get something useful.

I think this is a REALLY GOOD Idea because it changes one of the basic issues of this game: Getting people to fully participate. That would diminish upscale trolls and leechers. Those that are going to a boss fight will put in extra effort to deal with a boss’s mechanics instead of pressing 1 over and over, or if not entering down state is incentivized, much less bots and thoughtless melee will show up and active defense will be favored, etc. Don’t get me wrong, karma as a reward is great, but isn’t much of an incentive since people can get that anywhere—via leveling toons, doing the daily, Edge of the Mists and small dynamic events. Having greater control over your rewards, even in a small way, leads to better understanding of the game and more community participation. This game is pretty great about that judging from the number of helpful hints I see players giving other players in map chat, but I think it could be more rewarding for learning deep things about this MMO’s mechanics. Only this wouldn’t be as tense as the Twisted Marionette or the Queen’s Pavilion was. Or even Dry Top vendor tiers to some extent. Those activities really depend on group success, but having additional personal rewards for world events would really add something new to these fights.

I could maybe call these Personal Participation Tiers. That way, you get better rewards for doing certain things during a boss fight. There could even be some random challenges added in to keep things exciting and new to get the highest tier rewards. So like in one battle, you have to dodge at least 3 of Golem Mark II’s AoE to increase your reward tier, and maybe the next Golem fight, you have to apply conditions to it 3 times, or put in this much damage without taking a hit. That mixes some aspects that we’re already used to in the dailies on a much smaller scale, and something that can easily be read underneath the event descriptor. Maybe even class specific things like “defeat this boss without knockbacks” or “hit this boss with 2 different pet skills” I know we have bronze, silver and gold event participation already for karma rewards, but something like this would be less vague and help us learn deeper class mechanics . Maybe we don’t want to try very hard that day, so we just go for the kill via auto-attacks. That’s fine, we still get the chest and the guaranteed rare or lootbags. If we put in that extra effort though, maybe we can get extra champion bags, a special trinket the boss drops (could be any value, maybe just something to throw in the forge) a crafting bag, or a highly significant amount of karma. Maybe even increased chance of specific rare crafting item dropping like a Large Skull or Molten Shard from a particular boss, such as random doubloons.

Let’s use Modniir Ulgoth as an example. Well, if I hit all the personal participation tiers, I’ll ge a specific set of extra rewards from Ulgoth. Maybe you could call it Ulgoth’s Golden Loot Bag. It doesn’t have to include the exotic Ulgoth’s Tail first try, but the odds are increased that I’ll get that exotic one sooner or later rather than it being as vague as it is currently. I’ll always know I’m rolling on a slightly simpler loot table for a particular set of items with my extra participation. I could get an account bound blue or green or a special buff item that stacks on top of food and utilities for extra movement speed, magic find or stats only applicable in that region. Nothing that will give extra buffs in WvW, dungeons or PvP, just something that increases QoL slightly and makes the extra effort worth it.

Maybe we can leave the concept of prestige items out of a conversation about RNG?

Dungeon tokens rock, and moving away from them for Aetherblade path in favour of an RNG system was a mistake Imo.

For something like fossilised insects in Dry Top I would have favoured something like system 1. Say there is a 5% chance of receiving a fossilised insect from a chest. Every player gets a hidden random number, n, from 1-20. When they open chest number n they get the fossilised insect.

But in general I would like to see anything other than pure RNG. While pure RNG is fair in theory, the results it produces are not.

Becka Williams.4978:

Maybe we can leave the concept of prestige items out of a conversation about RNG?

Well this conversation is all about managing RNG to a level where everyone feels a bit more rewarded for their efforts and more in control of their rewards. I understand not wanting to push the borders of the topic, but I kept my additions in the realm of more manageable RNG. Things I presented might be a possible solution to some world boss rewards or secondary reward vouchers just like any treasure hunt/precursor crafting ideas most people have come up with. I still wanted to keep a degree of the RNG we’re used to. I feel it’s relevant. It’s up to others if they feel it’s relevant as well.

Maybe we can leave the concept of prestige items out of a conversation about RNG?

RNG is largely irrelevant outside of the concept of “prestige items,” or at least what some people insist on calling “prestigious,” even though they mostly just come down to how much gold you have, and there’s nothing “prestigious” about that.

I guess what I meant is that we should try to fix the RNG on the items we have, not add “hard content” so we can have more prestigious items.

Create time gated itens. Maybe complete “insert number here” times the dungeon to unlock a weapon skin or an entire armor set. Make it unlock able via achievement we dont need even more currencies in the game.

I guess what I meant is that we should try to fix the RNG on the items we have, not add “hard content” so we can have more prestigious items.

Oh, yeah, adding new content is an entirely different discussion, we’re talking about how to better itemize and distribute existing items through existing content.

Create time gated itens. Maybe complete “insert number here” times the dungeon to unlock a weapon skin or an entire armor set. Make it unlock able via achievement we dont need even more currencies in the game.

It’s a fair point. In most cases a cycling achievement could be used instead of a token. Complete a certain content so many times and get a reward. The tokens would be useful though in that you can convert them into an item of your choice. To go back to Teq for example, you could have a “complete Teq” achievement that cycles every time you kill him twenty times and drops a guaranteed Sunless box, but if a token system were used then you could have a vendor that would sell Sunless boxes for 20 tokens, and those little exotic trinkets he drops for 5, and those spoons for 2, and his mini for 15, or whatever is deemed fair, and then also maybe some bunches of champ bags, some mat bags, and other assorted nicknacks so that even if you get all the “unique” stuff he has, if you still like doing Teq the system would keep offering payouts.

John I have another question in relation to all this.

You say that RNG and magic find is working as intended, how do you that it is indeed working?

Sure if its working then by your own comments there are some people in the high cluster range , most people in the middle range and only a slight few in the low cluster range. From all the threads out on the lack of drop rates and the amount of players complaining about Hrs/precursor drops, it seams that there are a huge percentage of players in the low cluster then defined by how RNG and magic find should be working.

Now I for one never like to assume anything and forgive me for having no clue on programming or anything techie stuff, I am sure some ppl here will jump in, but if the answer to the question is based on figures from data stuff and not relying on actual game play input could the entire RNG/ magic find base line of programming be corrupt giving incorrect data as a result and be the problem of why everyone is having issues with RNG/ magic find.

cheers Phabby

phabby.8945:

John I have another question in relation to all this.

You say that RNG and magic find is working as intended, how do you that it is indeed working?

Sure if its working then by your own comments there are some people in the high cluster range , most people in the middle range and only a slight few in the low cluster range. From all the threads out on the lack of drop rates and the amount of players complaining about Hrs/precursor drops, it seams that there are a huge percentage of players in the low cluster then defined by how RNG and magic find should be working.

Now I for one never like to assume anything and forgive me for having no clue on programming or anything techie stuff, I am sure some ppl here will jump in, but if the answer to the question is based on figures from data stuff and not relying on actual game play input could the entire RNG/ magic find base line of programming be corrupt giving incorrect data as a result and be the problem of why everyone is having issues with RNG/ magic find.

cheers Phabby

Note – The players in the low drop cluster have a higher likelihood of posting complaints on the forums due to the negative aspect of being on the wrong side of luck.

I’m at 185% MF, and drop rates are fine. In the attached picture, all the Ecto you see were salvaged from Rare and Exotics (btw – Ecto salvage rates are fine too). I’ve gotten multiple Precursor drops from monsters and from Zommoros.

phabby.8945:

John I have another question in relation to all this.

You say that RNG and magic find is working as intended, how do you that it is indeed working?

Sure if its working then by your own comments there are some people in the high cluster range , most people in the middle range and only a slight few in the low cluster range. From all the threads out on the lack of drop rates and the amount of players complaining about Hrs/precursor drops, it seams that there are a huge percentage of players in the low cluster then defined by how RNG and magic find should be working.

Now I for one never like to assume anything and forgive me for having no clue on programming or anything techie stuff, I am sure some ppl here will jump in, but if the answer to the question is based on figures from data stuff and not relying on actual game play input could the entire RNG/ magic find base line of programming be corrupt giving incorrect data as a result and be the problem of why everyone is having issues with RNG/ magic find.

cheers Phabby

You seem to apply mf only to precursor droprates. MF is propably most visible to the individual player by the amount of t6 mats he gets compared to t5 and the rarity of the gear that drops for him. Once you run more than 300% mf, you usually get more yellows than white gear.
Right now, there are about 900 different exotic lvl 80 weapons listed on the tp. IF we disregard the ones that dont drop from regular mobs (primordium, destroyer, sentinel, champ bag weapons etc) you still have a loot table of (est.) ~500 different exotic weapons, precursors included. Your MF influences the propability of you getting an exotic drop, then you roll, which exotic drop, which isnt influenced by MF because the system doesnt know, which exotic weapon has the highest value for you.

Being that guy that often feels like he’s on the negative side of RNG.

Any fix or solution is better than no change to the system.

What about a system of diminishing RNG.

Lets say the loot table for a specific mob or chest consists of 10000 possible drops. 8000 of those would be junk, 1000 would be blues, 500 greens 300 rares, 199 exocitic and 1 precursors (or other top value drop)

1: You drop a piece of junk
2: The next time you loot that same mob or chest you now have 9999 with 7999 chance of dropping junk.
3. It keeps decaying until it you drop an exotic or other top teir loot and then it resets

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’m at 185% MF, and drop rates are fine. In the attached picture, all the Ecto you see were salvaged from Rare and Exotics (btw – Ecto salvage rates are fine too). I’ve gotten multiple Precursor drops from monsters and from Zommoros.

Your picture only proves that you play quite a lot and that you’ve probably seen hundrets of thousands of drops, not that RNG has a positive effect on your drops.

Julie Yann.5379:

199 exocitic and 1 precursors (or other top value drop)

3. It keeps decaying until it you drop an exotic or other top teir loot and then it resets

from (lets say) 199 exotics there are precursors for every weapon, so it would feel quite bad if get a underwater-weapon precursor right before it resets… and you’ll have to wait for another thousands of drops to see your desired precursor.

Wouldn’t it feel odd if you have played enough / seen enough drops so that you have all the junk-items gone and keep getting good drops finally… and then it resets and you’re back at mostly junk again?

I don’t see the future of precursors in rng, if you ask me. It would just feel grindy and not interesting at all, I hope that Anet hasn’t given up on the precursor hunt yet. They’ve proven with Mawdrey II and GW1’s moa chicken that they can create interesting scavenger hunts,… and now with collections this feature could be a great part of the hunt.

Something akin to the original system of a Scavenger Hunt for precursors(account bound)plus an overhauled RNG system is preferable to what is happening now. I say account bound because a non-RNG system gets someone the precursor they want to make the Legendary they want without it affecting the market on dropped or Mystic Forged precursors. The Legendaries from those precursors should also stay account bound on acquire for the same reasons. The fact that we haven’t gotten a system for this for almost two years has been a debacle. Not only have you all not added it, but it just keeps getting pushed back or it’s being ignored internally and we are being told it’s being pushed back for appeasement purposes. It’s well past time for implementation.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Julie Yann.5379:

199 exocitic and 1 precursors (or other top value drop)

3. It keeps decaying until it you drop an exotic or other top teir loot and then it resets

from (lets say) 199 exotics there are precursors for every weapon, so it would feel quite bad if get a underwater-weapon precursor right before it resets… and you’ll have to wait for another thousands of drops to see your desired precursor.

Wouldn’t it feel odd if you have played enough / seen enough drops so that you have all the junk-items gone and keep getting good drops finally… and then it resets and you’re back at mostly junk again?

I don’t see the future of precursors in rng, if you ask me. It would just feel grindy and not interesting at all, I hope that Anet hasn’t given up on the precursor hunt yet. They’ve proven with Mawdrey II and GW1’s moa chicken that they can create interesting scavenger hunts,… and now with collections this feature could be a great part of the hunt.

The idea is not to improve drop rates of precursors specifically but to even out the drastic differences between the lucky people and unlucky ones.

Precursors would get a higher tier value than regular exotics so they would all be in a separate slot.

I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.

I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.

Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.

I think rng in general is ok, it’s always exciting to open a loot-bag and find something of value to me.

The thing is: in GW2 this doesn’t happen a lot.

How could this experience be changed with little effort? Let the drops/rng as it is for current loot and add new one. (e.g. a new set of champion loot weapons which is accountbound and therefore drops much more frequently and also drops from normal enemies. Salvageable into ascended/t6 mats).

Having bigger loot tables would mask the rare droprate of single items.

Precursors is a whole different story, collections and/or a scavenger hunt… yes please. I hope devs haven’t given up on this yet.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I think rng in general is ok, it’s always exciting to open a loot-bag and find something of value to me.

This is a manipulation of the brains Reward system. It is not a true reward…the ‘feels’ you get from the opening of the bag is the reward. It is reinforced when you get something that further excites you.

MMO’s with pure RNG have an issue that Las vegas figured out long ago. You need to keep your playerbase excited all the time, keeping the brains reward system stimulated as long as possible. Look at video poker machines and slot machines. They are surrounded by exciting lights, sounds, etc. This helps in maintaining the user in front of the machine waiting for that payoff. They just lost again? Ooo shinies, let’s play again.

Without constant stimulation, or a payoff to the activity, the initial reward effect becomes diminished to the point that it becomes an aggravation, with the person feeling that they are being teased incessantly to the point of punishment. This state can be enjoyable to some people, however, they are a very small minority, and the average person would leave once this becomes obvious to them.

yeah, that’s why I wrote “it’s always exciting to find something of value” I agree, too much disappointments in opening the bags feels like punishment over time.

Roybe.5896:

I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.

I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.

Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.

A paycheck would be similar to gold that you receive for completing a dungeon because you know beforehand, what you will get, once you complete a certain task.

An RNG reward would be something unexpected, like a christmas bonus, employee of the month bonus, etc.

the thing is: a lot of people think that it will be great once there is a token system that guarantees you a precursor… but is this really a satisfying solution?

What would result out of this? Will the focus shift to an endless grind in order to get what you want? I mean, sure, it’s better to have a guaranteed reward rather than no reward, but this can’t be the solution imho. I’d rather see something that gives the skill-factor a hand in getting better than usual rewards. I don’t want to see GW2 turn into an asia-grindfest, but something that rewards players for putting in some effort to play skillful/focussed on aspects rather than mindless afk-shooting while watching the new Walking Dead tv show.

edit: deleted my suggestion about tracking skillful play as it is in Anet’s design to play WITH others, in a cooperative way.

Having said that I think it’s probably a better idea to reward group-play rather than individual play.

a short crazy idea to increase the chance of nice rewards while at the same time gives incentive to group with other players:

Grouped players don’t have only access to their own loot but their party-member’s loot as well. You have to choose which one’s loot you’ll take for your own BUT the loot is still free to take for everyone else in your party as a copy.

Example: group of 3
player A: green hammer, lodestone, blue chest, junk, junk
player B: yellow spear, blue hat, t6 mats
player C: green gloves, green sword, t6 mats, junk

I am player A. I can choose which one’s loot I’ll get. I choose player B’s loot: yellow spear, blue hat, t6 mats are mine now.

Player B chooses his own loot and gets the same stuff as well.
Player C chooses the loot from player A as he can use the lodestone.

I haven’t had time to read any of the replies other than the OP but I would still like to say this (Whether it’s been said before or not).

I feel like there are accounts which are RNG luck boosted and RNG luck cursed.

Personally, I’ve played the game for almost 2 years now and I haven’t received any item worth more than 50 gold. I’ve once got a Mini Molten pet, other than that, there hasn’t been a drop that exceeded 10 gold worth.

On the other hand, a guildie of mine posts pictures of him getting precursors at least once a month. He has received more than 15 so far which I find A LOT!

In totals I’ve spent more than 1.000 gold total in Mystic toilet, more than 500 hours grinding dungeons and around 1.000 hours doing WvW, yet I haven’t received any real rewards so far. If I combine gold received from selling exotic drops I got, I doubt it would exceed 100 gold.

If you’re reading this, don’t jump to some flaming conclusions straight away. I know there has to be a balance between players, some get good drops, some don’t but it shouldn’t make me feel like my account has been cursed, knowing that no matter what I do, the only way for me to get shinies is to grind gold – the only guaranteed reward.

My add to reward suggestion is to add something that many other MMOs have, rolling a dice.

Suggestion 1
Every 5th time someone in the party has completed a dungeon path, that party gets a highly rare item drop at the end of the dungeon.

Only the one who rolls the highest number receives it.

Suggestion 2
Every hard content such as dungeons, world events or guild missions, drops 1 highly rare item per every 5 players.

Each content has different pool of items that drop – for example Arah drop pool would range from Dusk, berserker ascended gear, Arah weapon and armor skins, to many more.

Players would compete for receiving that item by throwing dice. (Easy system for parties, would get complicated at world events).

Suggestion 2.1
Based on suggestion 2, every dungeon path would have additional difficulty level.

Arah for example:
Doing Arah exploration on normal mode (Level 80), would give you 1 guaranteed exotic drop for 5 players at the end of the path, using same dice system as suggested above.

Doing Arah exploration on heroic mode (Ads and bosses boosted to level 85, higher life pool, higher damage values, higher defense values, ….) would give you 1 guaranteed extremely rare drop for 5 players (For example a precursor, ascended item, …).

With these guaranteed extremely rare drops from doing dungeons on heroic mode would finally make grinding dungeons worth it. It would also push the community that plays them towards acquiring the best gear possible in order to get through heroic mode easier (Currently, crafting full ascended gear isn’t really worth it unless you’re a minimalist for those 5% buffs worth 500gold+ which you will most likely never get back – this changes with my suggestion).

rolling a dice is quite the contrary I think Anet wants to achieve… cooperative play, not being angry on your party-members (e.g. for getting something you did not get).

We occasionally see choice-rewards (choose 1 of these 3 items) which I would prefer. They could also add a random chance in there. Choose loot x1,y1,z1 or x2,y2,z2 or x3,y3,z3. (choose 3 in a line out of 9)

Having everyone in the party have access to the same loot would minimise anger towards other people, or the feeling to always be the unlucky one.

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

Wanze.8410:

Roybe.5896:

I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.

I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.

Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.

A paycheck would be similar to gold that you receive for completing a dungeon because you know beforehand, what you will get, once you complete a certain task.

An RNG reward would be something unexpected, like a christmas bonus, employee of the month bonus, etc.

Christmas bonuses are mostly expected. I think most people would be furious if theirs were RNG. Makes me think of National Lampoons Christmas Jelly of the Month Club.

Employee of the month is mostly earned, so not really lottery style like RNG.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Roybe.5896:

I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.

I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.

Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.

A paycheck would be similar to gold that you receive for completing a dungeon because you know beforehand, what you will get, once you complete a certain task.

An RNG reward would be something unexpected, like a christmas bonus, employee of the month bonus, etc.

Christmas bonuses are mostly expected. I think most people would be furious if theirs were RNG. Makes me think of National Lampoons Christmas Jelly of the Month Club.

Employee of the month is mostly earned, so not really lottery style like RNG.

My point was that both arent guaranteed.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

rolling a dice is quite the contrary I think Anet wants to achieve… cooperative play, not being angry on your party-members (e.g. for getting something you did not get).

We occasionally see choice-rewards (choose 1 of these 3 items) which I would prefer. They could also add a random chance in there. Choose loot x1,y1,z1 or x2,y2,z2 or x3,y3,z3. (choose 3 in a line out of 9)

Having everyone in the party have access to the same loot would minimise anger towards other people, or the feeling to always be the unlucky one.

I agree. Let’s stay away from rolling for loot. The last thing we need is player animosity that another player “stole” the item you wanted. The game’s already been developing more of a toxic atmosphere over the last year; let’s not throw any more fuel on that fire.

I still say that the devs should return to the SAB loot system as a fair compromise for everybody. You have the chance to get rare loot from the end chests, but you can also accumulate tokens to buy those same items if you’re dedicated enough. The key difference here is that the ones purchased with tokens are account bound, so this doesn’t flood the market with them. Rather, it simply means that those players who really, really want a particular item are guaranteed to get it for their own use if they devote enough time to it, but they won’t be able to resell it.

The rewards for tokens should also be diverse enough that people who don’t necessarily want the skins from a particular game mode can also gain something of value from participating in it. For example, while the main offering of SAB were the various skins, you could also trade Baubles for Obsidian Shards. This could perhaps be expanded to things like Experience Tomes (to keep in with the theme of “edutainment”) or crafting materials.

Klemen, why do you not feel that dungeon tokens do not currently fill the role that your suggestion is intended to?

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’m at 185% MF, and drop rates are fine. In the attached picture, all the Ecto you see were salvaged from Rare and Exotics (btw – Ecto salvage rates are fine too). I’ve gotten multiple Precursor drops from monsters and from Zommoros.

Your picture only proves that you play quite a lot and that you’ve probably seen hundrets of thousands of drops, not that RNG has a positive effect on your drops.

Actually, I think what that picture shows is what John essentially said in a post earlier that people sort of look past: Some accounts are “lucky” and some are “unlucky.” That is if the pool is large enough you will inevitably have accounts at either end of the RNG distribution over an extended period of time. No wonder Penguin is such an avid defender of the current rewards system and economy! Its working for him/her thank you very much so leave it alone! lol

hey guys ty for the reply’s

Sounds to me .Smooth Penguin that your in the cluster of high drop rates of RNG that John said exists or the top side of the normal range. now don’t get we wrong on any level of being jealous as I am far from that .
The problem with RNG is the bottom cluster is appearing, from all the comments on here and in game, to be way to large then should be according to what John has said it should be a very small minority and I just would like to know how they measure the actual in game level and if the MF is working as it should or is there a bug that they haven’t picked up on in their assessments.

Wanze I was only using the precursors as a reference due to the current thread on complaints about the game Hrs put in and the lack of Pre’s and decent drops of any kind.
For a casual player like my self I find it completely pointless to play when I can spend hrs farming mobs in all different areas and get either next to nothing or just junk to salvage. Coming from GW1 I loved chest farming and doing areas like DOA and knowing you were going to be rewarded with something shiny at the end of the play time that you would keep for collections or sell for a little extra gold.

Bubs wants daddy time so thats all I can think of now cheers guys

John Smith.4610:

This is a spinoff of the economy thread to talk about RNG tactics in games in a general form.
Here’s the premise. RNG is evenly distributed on aggregate. On an individual level this means that while almost everyone falls into a reasonable range in the middle, there are outliers on each side of the distribution that are either highly rewarded or not rewarded at all. These individuals become sample cases and spotlights for experiences that maybe shouldn’t exist.

We do need to be very careful about ideas that flatten the experience entirely as that quickly becomes not fun at all.

There are two concepts that have been discussed in the other thread that I’ll briefly summarize.

1. Use a specifically non-random NG. The NRNG functions similarly to a RNG, but has characteristics that either squish the distribution so that outliers exist much less or specifically manipulate a player’s experience for loot in a more complicated way that makes it feel rewarding.

2. Implement measures that counteract low-end outlier behavior inside of game design. This would be a system that is something like: If player hasn’t received a rare drop in X time send them Y tickets for random drops.

2.5: “Add secondary reward mechanisms (ie. token based system) alongside the primary RNG system; allow progress to be made even when you don’t get the result you want.”

Obviously these are hyper-simplified descriptions, but I don’t want this to get too long.

edit: added 2.5

I think one great way to reduce the effect of RNG in the game is to allow party-based loot. This idea is a very old one, since FotM was first released, and I noticed how the RNG system was punishing FRIENDS/GUILDIES playing together. Players dislike feeling punished but love feeling rewarded.

How is this going to work:
When there is some loot that is not salvageable/usable (Fractal Skins) or sellable for nearly nothing (Ascended Rings) allow people in the same party to distribute it how they see fit. Example:

Me and my friend are doing Fractals, I do fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Dagger skin, he does Fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Sword skin, we kill the last boss and voila, I get a Sword and he gets a Dagger. This is something that shouldn’t ever ever happen in the game, it makes both players feel like the RNG system failed them.

Another example, imagine both players are doing Tequatl, one is a WvW player as well and would certainly love to have some extra Knight’s gear, the other player plays a Dire/Rabid set in WvW, and once again they both get the opposite of what they want. Same with Ascended Rings and unsellable Fractal exotics, the list goes on and on and on.

Why is this happening only in this game alone? In other games, when you are grouped with people you trust (friends/guildies) you have the option to distribute the loot the way you want. Even if two playes want the same thing, eg a Fractal Sword skin, if your guildie gets it instead of you, you are one step closer in getting it yourself if the group stays the same, so even if RNG doesn’t favor you, you STILL MAKE PROGRESS.

Even though “fixing” RNG is important, for sure, allowing parties to distribute their loot as they see fit, will solve some of loot issue. At least Ascended items (boxes, rings) and unsellable exotic skins can be freely distributed among members, as is anything else that is Account Bound or Soul Bound on Acquire.

Just my 2 cents.

Ohoni.6057:

I guess what I meant is that we should try to fix the RNG on the items we have, not add “hard content” so we can have more prestigious items.

Oh, yeah, adding new content is an entirely different discussion, we’re talking about how to better itemize and distribute existing items through existing content.

I was thinking on this, and I think what we should do is make RNG better, not just move the outliers from people who are lucky to the people who can do a bunch of tasks during a fight. If we start doing that, it’ll be like champs, people doing “tasks” and not just attacking the boss.

maddoctor.2738:

John Smith.4610:

This is a spinoff of the economy thread to talk about RNG tactics in games in a general form.
Here’s the premise. RNG is evenly distributed on aggregate. On an individual level this means that while almost everyone falls into a reasonable range in the middle, there are outliers on each side of the distribution that are either highly rewarded or not rewarded at all. These individuals become sample cases and spotlights for experiences that maybe shouldn’t exist.

We do need to be very careful about ideas that flatten the experience entirely as that quickly becomes not fun at all.

There are two concepts that have been discussed in the other thread that I’ll briefly summarize.

1. Use a specifically non-random NG. The NRNG functions similarly to a RNG, but has characteristics that either squish the distribution so that outliers exist much less or specifically manipulate a player’s experience for loot in a more complicated way that makes it feel rewarding.

2. Implement measures that counteract low-end outlier behavior inside of game design. This would be a system that is something like: If player hasn’t received a rare drop in X time send them Y tickets for random drops.

2.5: “Add secondary reward mechanisms (ie. token based system) alongside the primary RNG system; allow progress to be made even when you don’t get the result you want.”

Obviously these are hyper-simplified descriptions, but I don’t want this to get too long.

edit: added 2.5

I think one great way to reduce the effect of RNG in the game is to allow party-based loot. This idea is a very old one, since FotM was first released, and I noticed how the RNG system was punishing FRIENDS/GUILDIES playing together. Players dislike feeling punished but love feeling rewarded.

How is this going to work:
When there is some loot that is not salvageable/usable (Fractal Skins) or sellable for nearly nothing (Ascended Rings) allow people in the same party to distribute it how they see fit. Example:

Me and my friend are doing Fractals, I do fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Dagger skin, he does Fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Sword skin, we kill the last boss and voila, I get a Sword and he gets a Dagger. This is something that shouldn’t ever ever happen in the game, it makes both players feel like the RNG system failed them.

Another example, imagine both players are doing Tequatl, one is a WvW player as well and would certainly love to have some extra Knight’s gear, the other player plays a Dire/Rabid set in WvW, and once again they both get the opposite of what they want. Same with Ascended Rings and unsellable Fractal exotics, the list goes on and on and on.

Why is this happening only in this game alone? In other games, when you are grouped with people you trust (friends/guildies) you have the option to distribute the loot the way you want. Even if two playes want the same thing, eg a Fractal Sword skin, if your guildie gets it instead of you, you are one step closer in getting it yourself if the group stays the same, so even if RNG doesn’t favor you, you STILL MAKE PROGRESS.

Even though “fixing” RNG is important, for sure, allowing parties to distribute their loot as they see fit, will solve some of loot issue. At least Ascended items (boxes, rings) and unsellable exotic skins can be freely distributed among members, as is anything else that is Account Bound or Soul Bound on Acquire.

Just my 2 cents.

main problem with part loot is it causes people to feel pressure to give people stuff, create systems for deciding who gets what loot, etc. Then you get systems where you all sell all loot, and distribute gold (to be fair) Or you decided who deserves what drop based on parucipation, or the leader decides who gets what. Or the time that guy in the guild looted the dawn and changed servers/names.

i dont hate the principle, but the reality is generally annoying.

Cormac.3871:

Klemen, why do you not feel that dungeon tokens do not currently fill the role that your suggestion is intended to?

Well for once, when you hit level 80 with 8 characters and want them to look nice, dungeon tokens are useless. I never use dungeon tokens anymore to get armor. From level 80 dungeons, I buy rares and salvage for maybe few ectos but that’s about it.

I’ve been doing that for over a year now and here I am, still 0 legendary, still 0 rare drops (not rare as quality but rare as rare), only shinies I grind gold for because that’s the only guaranteed way of getting something.

And my suggestion is focused at exactly that, guaranteed rewards – why? Beacuse I feel some accounts are RNG luck boosted and some cursed, and as I explained in my first reply, there are people who always get good stuff and get rich with shinies and then there are people like me who never got anything and have to struggle with the grind.

I understand that there needs to be a balance between those who get and those who don’t get but it shouldn’t be like 1:0, more like 2:1 or 1:1 in way we all are eligible to get rare loot, not some more some less.

As for rolling dice, I’ve never been mad at anyone getting what I needed in other games, if not else, I engaged in a conversation with them, offering them stuff in exchange for that drop. It often ended in a friendship which resulted in doing more dungeons together.

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

I think one great way to reduce the effect of RNG in the game is to allow party-based loot. This idea is a very old one, since FotM was first released, and I noticed how the RNG system was punishing FRIENDS/GUILDIES playing together. Players dislike feeling punished but love feeling rewarded.

How is this going to work:
When there is some loot that is not salvageable/usable (Fractal Skins) or sellable for nearly nothing (Ascended Rings) allow people in the same party to distribute it how they see fit. Example:

Me and my friend are doing Fractals, I do fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Dagger skin, he does Fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Sword skin, we kill the last boss and voila, I get a Sword and he gets a Dagger. This is something that shouldn’t ever ever happen in the game, it makes both players feel like the RNG system failed them.

Another example, imagine both players are doing Tequatl, one is a WvW player as well and would certainly love to have some extra Knight’s gear, the other player plays a Dire/Rabid set in WvW, and once again they both get the opposite of what they want. Same with Ascended Rings and unsellable Fractal exotics, the list goes on and on and on.

Why is this happening only in this game alone? In other games, when you are grouped with people you trust (friends/guildies) you have the option to distribute the loot the way you want. Even if two playes want the same thing, eg a Fractal Sword skin, if your guildie gets it instead of you, you are one step closer in getting it yourself if the group stays the same, so even if RNG doesn’t favor you, you STILL MAKE PROGRESS.

Even though “fixing” RNG is important, for sure, allowing parties to distribute their loot as they see fit, will solve some of loot issue. At least Ascended items (boxes, rings) and unsellable exotic skins can be freely distributed among members, as is anything else that is Account Bound or Soul Bound on Acquire.

Just my 2 cents.

main problem with part loot is it causes people to feel pressure to give people stuff, create systems for deciding who gets what loot, etc. Then you get systems where you all sell all loot, and distribute gold (to be fair) Or you decided who deserves what drop based on parucipation, or the leader decides who gets what. Or the time that guy in the guild looted the dawn and changed servers/names.

i dont hate the principle, but the reality is generally annoying.

My “plan” is to use this system when I’m running with friends / guildies. We can decide who gets what among ourselves easily, there is a reason I only included (at least at first) only items that are completely useless otherwise. The main idea is to stop punishing people that are playing together for a long time, I still don’t have my Fractal Dagger drop even after running 1000 fractals, while my “regular” team almost everyone has it!!!! And they don’t even use daggers in their characters!!! How is this FAIR?

If you don’t like the Fractal Skin, your only other option is to delete it. WHY?
If you don’t like the Ascended Ring (or even Ascended weapon/armor you got from the box) you can only sell them for some useless silver. WHY?
If you don’t like that Exotic Account Bound Skin you got, you can only salvage it, yes salvaging will get you something more, but still nothing compared to giving it to someone who actually likes it / needs it.

Making bound on acquire gear party-bound for those who “activate” this option is a good step forward in making LOOT in this game feel more important without even tweaking RNG itself.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

I think one great way to reduce the effect of RNG in the game is to allow party-based loot. This idea is a very old one, since FotM was first released, and I noticed how the RNG system was punishing FRIENDS/GUILDIES playing together. Players dislike feeling punished but love feeling rewarded.

How is this going to work:
When there is some loot that is not salvageable/usable (Fractal Skins) or sellable for nearly nothing (Ascended Rings) allow people in the same party to distribute it how they see fit. Example:

Me and my friend are doing Fractals, I do fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Dagger skin, he does Fractals daily in order to get the Fractal Sword skin, we kill the last boss and voila, I get a Sword and he gets a Dagger. This is something that shouldn’t ever ever happen in the game, it makes both players feel like the RNG system failed them.

Another example, imagine both players are doing Tequatl, one is a WvW player as well and would certainly love to have some extra Knight’s gear, the other player plays a Dire/Rabid set in WvW, and once again they both get the opposite of what they want. Same with Ascended Rings and unsellable Fractal exotics, the list goes on and on and on.

Why is this happening only in this game alone? In other games, when you are grouped with people you trust (friends/guildies) you have the option to distribute the loot the way you want. Even if two playes want the same thing, eg a Fractal Sword skin, if your guildie gets it instead of you, you are one step closer in getting it yourself if the group stays the same, so even if RNG doesn’t favor you, you STILL MAKE PROGRESS.

Even though “fixing” RNG is important, for sure, allowing parties to distribute their loot as they see fit, will solve some of loot issue. At least Ascended items (boxes, rings) and unsellable exotic skins can be freely distributed among members, as is anything else that is Account Bound or Soul Bound on Acquire.

Just my 2 cents.

main problem with part loot is it causes people to feel pressure to give people stuff, create systems for deciding who gets what loot, etc. Then you get systems where you all sell all loot, and distribute gold (to be fair) Or you decided who deserves what drop based on parucipation, or the leader decides who gets what. Or the time that guy in the guild looted the dawn and changed servers/names.

i dont hate the principle, but the reality is generally annoying.

My “plan” is to use this system when I’m running with friends / guildies. We can decide who gets what among ourselves easily, there is a reason I only included (at least at first) only items that are completely useless otherwise. The main idea is to stop punishing people that are playing together for a long time, I still don’t have my Fractal Dagger drop even after running 1000 fractals, while my “regular” team almost everyone has it!!!! And they don’t even use daggers in their characters!!! How is this FAIR?

If you don’t like the Fractal Skin, your only other option is to delete it. WHY?
If you don’t like the Ascended Ring (or even Ascended weapon/armor you got from the box) you can only sell them for some useless silver. WHY?
If you don’t like that Exotic Account Bound Skin you got, you can only salvage it, yes salvaging will get you something more, but still nothing compared to giving it to someone who actually likes it / needs it.

Making bound on acquire gear party-bound for those who “activate” this option is a good step forward in making LOOT in this game feel more important without even tweaking RNG itself.

like i said i agree with your particular case, and have been in that position before, however, i have also experienced similar systems in other games, and it lead to many sort of annoying developments. I remember guild type organizations selling good drops (even account bounds) join party loot item type deals. Guilds claiming party drops like i said, via most important guild members first, or having to create point systems to track it.
Especially consider that they may add raids soon, and you may be competing for drops with a much larger number of people who have a lot less personal stake in your interests, and the larger the group size, the less likely you will be able to play with the same people all the time.

Im not saying its horrible, but there ar4e lot of problems that come with party loot, especially the more people who take part.

How will you feel when your 4/5 people in your group and 16/24 people in your guild decide the fractal dagger should go to Sally, who has been trying for the dagger 3 days longer than you have, but wasnt actually involved in this run? hold on hurry up and enter the fractal before it autoloots sally! Shes really awesome for the guild!

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Roybe.5896:

I would love to see a discussion as to why people feel RNG is considered a reward for activity.

I get a reward from work weekly, it’s called a paycheck. I do something, I have an expected outcome. I do not expect to work for a week, then have someone to roll a number on a set of dice to see how much, or if I even, get paid. Why should anyone consider this a reward system? It’s really a bonus system or a lottery.

Understanding this basic point should guide this discussion a little better. It explains why a token system would be more enjoyable…there is a goal to actually pursue.

A paycheck would be similar to gold that you receive for completing a dungeon because you know beforehand, what you will get, once you complete a certain task.

An RNG reward would be something unexpected, like a christmas bonus, employee of the month bonus, etc.

Christmas bonuses are mostly expected. I think most people would be furious if theirs were RNG. Makes me think of National Lampoons Christmas Jelly of the Month Club.

Employee of the month is mostly earned, so not really lottery style like RNG.

My point was that both arent guaranteed.

Most places that offer Christmas bonus base it on company performance/profitability, which is an extension of productivity and management. It is not based on the roll of a D20.

However, the other poster is correct. The base gold, karma, exp, etc. IS the real paycheck/reward. Anything else from a loot table SHOULD be a positive bonus to the reward loot drop. However, it doesn’t appear to work that way. The loot table drop above the base reward has come to mean the reward itself. Not receiving a ‘good’ (which is highly subjective) loot drop equates to not receiving any reward.

This is my issue. When an RNG drop becomes synonymous with a given reward system, there is something wrong. When the reward system becomes so unrewarding to a player base that they find it more aggravating with each new drop because they didn’t get their lucky roll, yet again, the ‘normal drop’ feels punishing. Although there are plenty of changes that Arenanet can enact (all of which will have an impact on the game in mostly negative ways), I believe player expectations need to be examined, and see if those expectations are actually aligned with the goals of the game.

Should players be expecting better loot drops from the game they are playing? Why? Are loot systems between games comparable? Should they be? Should loot rewards be the main reason that a player plays an MMO?

Many of these expectations are not being handled correctly, e.g. a lot of the complaints and suggestions about content, loot, etc. keep exemplifying a vertical rather than horizontal progression. That will not be fixed or changed within this game. Nor does it seem that the players are willing to adjust their attitudes towards loot..particularly when basing it on other MMO’s in the genre. Which have completely different systems in place for loot and drops.

To bring this back to topic, GW2 has a solid reward system, that is being overshadowed by a couple of issues that are of annoyance to people, degrading their overall experience due to misaligned expectations about RNG and rewards. Changing the RNG will decrease the satisfaction related to these items from these bonus drops since more of them will become common. Short of demanding the players to ‘get over it’ and get their attitudes aligned to the way rewards work in this game the way to fix this, as a developer, is to either make the items dropped a true reward based on doing something (a token system) or lessen the frustration of the player base by increasing the drop rate (noting that this actually is manipulating the way the brains reward system gets rewarded, this might or might not be perceived as a true reward by the players) .

Wanze.8410:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

Yeah you’re right, I got infracted for posting off-topic stuff:

“Gaile, could you ask the devs if the game can now track healing-output / support skills as participation in events… now that we got the new combat log which can track healing?”

Well I guess I stop making suggestions now. Odd decision if you ask me, I was just trying to help…

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Wanze.8410:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

Yeah you’re right, I got infracted for posting off-topic stuff:

“Gaile, could you ask the devs if the game can now track healing-output / support skills as participation in events… now that we got the new combat log which can track healing?”

Well I guess I stop making suggestions now. Odd decision if you ask me, I was just trying to help…

Youre free to make suggestions but this is clearly in the wrong thread and in the wrong subforum.
If you got infracted for it in the first place, i think its a good idea NOT to post it again in this topic and to delete your post.

Wanze.8410:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

reward aquisition is not off topic to discussing random loot, because if it isnt random, you have to decide how/why you award loot.
If the solution is less random, then one must say, how can achieve similar benefits to random, with different structures?

the primary benefit as far as i can tell being unpredictability, and probabably easy design.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Wanze.8410:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

Yeah you’re right, I got infracted for posting off-topic stuff:

“Gaile, could you ask the devs if the game can now track healing-output / support skills as participation in events… now that we got the new combat log which can track healing?”

Well I guess I stop making suggestions now. Odd decision if you ask me, I was just trying to help…

Hmm i think its a bit of grey area, because you were asking that within the confines of,(if i remember correctly) is it even possible to track these things AND tie them into deciding how to reward people for participation with random breaker tokens.

However, I dont think they pay that much attention to what is being said, just if it seems that way with a quick glance, and if someone reported you, which was probably the case.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

reward aquisition is not off topic to discussing random loot, because if it isnt random, you have to decide how/why you award loot.
If the solution is less random, then one must say, how can achieve similar benefits to random, with different structures?

the primary benefit as far as i can tell being unpredictability, and probabably easy design.

I checked the OP again and actually youre right. JS doesnt ask, which one we prefer but to discuss them

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I’m sorry John, if my suggestions/discussions go too far away from the topic, do you want to focus on your stated 3 points or are we still on the right track, I wonder?

I also think this is going a bit off topic with a general discussion about reward structures and precursor aquisition. They are undoubtely related topics and alot of people have genuine concerns about them (and some good suggestions where made here) but i think those would be the next steps of discussion and should be discussed at a later stage in a seperate topic.

reward aquisition is not off topic to discussing random loot, because if it isnt random, you have to decide how/why you award loot.
If the solution is less random, then one must say, how can achieve similar benefits to random, with different structures?

the primary benefit as far as i can tell being unpredictability, and probabably easy design.

I checked the OP again and actually youre right. JS doesnt ask, which one we prefer but to discuss them

yeah, even though most people seem to be treating those as the only options, my understanding of the OP was that those were only two possible suggestions, and the overall point of the thread is discussing random, and how to avoid the natural phenomenon of outliers having a really bad experience.

essentially random overall, amongst many people is pretty stable, but the personal experience on an individual basis.
you are on one side of the bell curve and win often or big
you are in the middle, and most items seem a bit of a grind
you are on the other side and your experience sucks.

non random wont eliminate the feeling of grind, with a simple design, but at least people on the other side of the bell curve will feel like they have another method to progress towards goals.