Guild Wars 2

Ok, now that i got your attention, this thread is not here to say that turning an MMO into a giant and glorified slot machine is good.

However, looking at posts in the last few days and reading map chat, seems like people, more and more frustrated by RNG are getting the idea that a completely fair mmo, where everything you do, any time you spend, progresses towards your goal in the same way as anybody else is a GOOD thing.

IT’S NOT

Sure, rng is bad and frustrating if its involved in stuff you NEED to achieve in order to progress on a specific goal.

Ok, i can understand that, HOWEVER what many people don’t realize is that, on the opposite side, an MMO completely dry of RNG would be utterly boring, streamlined, and just not fun. A shallow experience where nothing exciting ever happens, as you KNOW the rewards already of the time you’re investing in it.

What if:
-Every enemy dropped the same amount of gold
-Anything you would do earns a streamlined amount of “equip” tokens you use to buy stuff
-All the chests had the same thing in it for everybody, ever
-While entering fractals , you could choose the facets you want
-Crits and precision removed
-Procs removed, instead you get a flat, lesser and underwhelming effect on any attack
-In pvp, you would only fight people of your same class, items and skill level
-in WvW, unless two groups are composed by the same exact number of people, they can’t attack each other
-Map, daily, monthly bonus item rewards removed
-etc… (make your own, there are hundreds more)

THAT would be the fairest MMO experience to anyone, where getting frustrated (or really, feeling any emotion at all while playing) is impossible.

But would you play it?

I don’t have a problem with RNG to be honest, but I do not like RNG+DR. They work really bad together.

Completely depends on how it’s implemented. Much like the quasi test scatter plot…..the distribution over the segmented rng would imo better. In that manner there would be less variance between the high and the low thus one player wouldn’t have as great of a chance to have horrid rng.

For the last kittening time, people are kittening when:
1) They get kittened over by the RNG, which happens more than often.
2) The variance of the RNG is too kitten big, the same kitten mob should NOT have a kittening precursor and a porous bone on the same loot table.
3) Idiotic implementation of a RNG or idiotic use of a correctly working RNG equals points 1 and 2.

RNG is a necessary “Evil” if you will, this keeps the market fluid and makes it so that certain items rarity is protected.

However, as Cloud above stated, the problem is Diminishing Returns, this mechanic that ANet introduced in order to combat the Farming bots, punished their actual players for playing the content as intended. If you get DR it will take 24 hours before it wears off. Meaning if you are simply in lets say, Cursed Shore, for the first time, you will be running around doing Events killing 1 type of mob, constantly, Risen and eventually DR will activate, it seems after the last patch to activate sooner then before and much more random.

Because I play a fair amount of hours I have experience with DR, I help my guildies out with anything they need regardsless if I have DR on me atm or not, generally have..sigh. Now I find myself simply doing as LITTLE as Possible so I avoid DR.

Yes, It scares active players, that like to be rewarded sometimes for killing mobs or doing events, to not play the game at all.

Something ANet really needs to address, simply by removing DR again. This is a flawed and utterly poor choice of mechanic.

Do not punish your active player base for playing your game!

Still never encountered DR, people need to chill out with the farming :p

RNG works fine for mundane drops (whites, blues, greens, even rares), because we all get so many of these drops assigned to us during our gaming life in GW2 that math demands that the total value of these items will be more or less even for everyone, and yes, it -does- avoid the problems listed in the OP.

However, RNG produces extremely unfair results for very rare drops (Exotics, precursors), which is why using RNG for this sort of item should be avoided.

That’s basically it.

People complain when they don’t get stuff, it’s that simple. The whining is to be expected.

Exotics/precursors should be rare or everyone would have them. There are perfectly good ways to get around the whole RNG, karma and dungeon gear.

There are sure ways to get the same loot and people will still complain. The rest are just skins.

Chickenshoes.6250:

People complain when they don’t get stuff, it’s that simple. The whining is to be expected.

Exotics/precursors should be rare or everyone would have them. There are perfectly good ways to get around the whole RNG, karma and dungeon gear.

There are sure ways to get the same loot and people will still complain. The rest are just skins.

Rarity is no excuse for badly designed rng mechanics. Rng is an ok mechanic if there is some sort of cap on it. You could, for example, put a hidden counter in effect that would increase by 1 on each failed roll and after 1000 trials (arbitrary number, just as an example!) you’d get an auto success, resetting your counter to 0, which would also happen on a natural success roll.
By adjusting the numbers slightly, you could keep exactly the same overall rarity, because over the entire player population, things always even out anyway. You’d just save people from endlessly flushing stuff down the mystic toilet with absolutely nothing to show for whatsoever.

wintermute.4096:

Chickenshoes.6250:

People complain when they don’t get stuff, it’s that simple. The whining is to be expected.

Exotics/precursors should be rare or everyone would have them. There are perfectly good ways to get around the whole RNG, karma and dungeon gear.

There are sure ways to get the same loot and people will still complain. The rest are just skins.

Rarity is no excuse for badly designed rng mechanics. Rng is an ok mechanic if there is some sort of cap on it. You could, for example, put a hidden counter in effect that would increase by 1 on each failed roll and after 1000 trials (arbitrary number, just as an example!) you’d get an auto success, resetting your counter to 0, which would also happen on a natural success roll.
By adjusting the numbers slightly, you could keep exactly the same overall rarity, because over the entire player population, things always even out anyway. You’d just save people from endlessly flushing stuff down the mystic toilet with absolutely nothing to show for whatsoever.

Why not just accept gambling’s bad. Instead of trying to make it good, which then it wouldnt be gambling. The only good way to make money is to earn it. Even if you hit the jackpot, easy come … easy go.

Cloud.7613:

I don’t have a problem with RNG to be honest, but I do not like RNG+DR. They work really bad together.

I think that’s where most people would agree. I would agree with you on this as well.

However there are some things that should definitely not be as rare as they are. They might as well be labeled Legendary for all intents and purposes for finding them due to this RNG + DR + killcredit bug. I had hoped they had learned that people need three things to make gear and that they shouldn’t be forced to spend hours teleporting from place to place trying to get enough of these items to make a set of armor runes etc.
Three things they should have sold in the Laurel vendor directly (no RNG chests) are powerful blood, Onyx Lodestone, and Gossamer Scraps. These items are the worst items to find in game, one can easily get endless silk but no one can convince me that silk is what all Orrians wore including the nobles, gimme a break.

Gambling is only bad if people go and lose everything on it. You can’t lose money on it unless someone is dumb and goes and buys 100 keys opening those stupid chests like a madman. The only thing you can lose is time and you’ve already forfeited it by playing the game in the first place.

For some things being hard to get, this is where the RNG is part of the endgame. People are scrambling to find Final Rest, and whoever finds it will be famous. Some people find this fun. For those who don’t find it fun they can simply NOT DO IT.

Go do dungeons. They have that incremental progress you’re looking for.

As has been mentioned a few times, it’s not really the RNG that’s the problem, it’s the DR. I have horrid luck with RNG, having never gotten an exotic from a chest and been playing since lauch, but I deal with it because I know that’s how they make it even and fair. The DR is the problem as it punishes real players for farming things like blood and fangs. The mystic toilet is completely another thing. Players should know that’s gambling, and they only have themselves to blame when they end up wasting 50g to get that precursor. I’ll be the next one to do that once I’ve finished everything else for my legendary. Yes, I know I’ll get frustrated, but I know it’s RNG mechanics, some really lucky, others, not so much.

The problem that the RNG is not very random and is potentially broken. Most people tend to have average drops while others have a horseshoe up their kitten and others yet, seem to be perpetually cursed.

Now, if it were actually truly RNG, it should be a rare occasion that you get similar items, that said, it happens way to often to be a coincidence. I think literally every time I’ve had multiple rares drop in a short period of time, at least 4-5 times that I remember off the top of my head, perhaps more, they were very similar either in build or type. i.e. Berserker…of the Air, or two tridents, two shields, etc. More than once I’ve heard of people getting two of the exact same item within minutes or even out of the same chest. I remember getting an item out of the Jormag chest (One of the two rare items I’ve gotten from that event in over a dozen times doing it), then a few minutes later getting a different item, but identically speced, from a wolf. Now, with the sheer myriad of weapons that can drop, this situation should be exceedingly rare…but it is not, hence this does not seem very random.

And would it kill them to weight the RNG towards items that can actually be used. Very rarely do I get items that can actually be used by my class.

Yeah RNG is awesome especially when you put 4 ruby orbs in the mystic toilet and get a ruby orb out. SWEET!

Leamas.5803:

The problem that the RNG is not very random and is potentially broken. Most people tend to have average drops while others have a horseshoe up their kitten and others yet, seem to be perpetually cursed.

Now, if it were actually truly RNG, it should be a rare occasion that you get similar items, that said, it happens way to often to be a coincidence. I think literally every time I’ve had multiple rares drop in a short period of time, at least 4-5 times that I remember off the top of my head, perhaps more, they were very similar either in build or type. i.e. Berserker…of the Air, or two tridents, two shields, etc. More than once I’ve heard of people getting two of the exact same item within minutes or even out of the same chest. I remember getting an item out of the Jormag chest (One of the two rare items I’ve gotten from that event in over a dozen times doing it), then a few minutes later getting a different item, but identically speced, from a wolf. Now, with the sheer myriad of weapons that can drop, this situation should be exceedingly rare…but it is not, hence this does not seem very random.

And would it kill them to weight the RNG towards items that can actually be used. Very rarely do I get items that can actually be used by my class.

Actually, a perfectly working rng will produce just that.

I still feel fixed percentages are a better “scarcity” implementation than RNG. It leads to players knowing that they WILL get “x” if they work at it and do the steps necessary. It also allows for a significantly more predictable economy, as there are less random variables involved, and also allows for better control over the scarcity of said items. You can even implement items that will never be attained by more than 1 or 2 players, simply by having a percentage that is based in the right variables.

It gives more flexibility, more stability, more predictability, and less frustration for everyone involved. Never understood why it hasnt been more widely implemented in games, and even when it has, its far too simple and direct.

Agree OP.. i LOVE RNG.. The forge is so exciting, to see if i get an exotic!

wintermute.4096:

Leamas.5803:

The problem that the RNG is not very random and is potentially broken. Most people tend to have average drops while others have a horseshoe up their kitten and others yet, seem to be perpetually cursed.

Now, if it were actually truly RNG, it should be a rare occasion that you get similar items, that said, it happens way to often to be a coincidence. I think literally every time I’ve had multiple rares drop in a short period of time, at least 4-5 times that I remember off the top of my head, perhaps more, they were very similar either in build or type. i.e. Berserker…of the Air, or two tridents, two shields, etc. More than once I’ve heard of people getting two of the exact same item within minutes or even out of the same chest. I remember getting an item out of the Jormag chest (One of the two rare items I’ve gotten from that event in over a dozen times doing it), then a few minutes later getting a different item, but identically speced, from a wolf. Now, with the sheer myriad of weapons that can drop, this situation should be exceedingly rare…but it is not, hence this does not seem very random.

And would it kill them to weight the RNG towards items that can actually be used. Very rarely do I get items that can actually be used by my class.

Actually, a perfectly working rng will produce just that.

I don’t think so, if I’m rolling a 10 then it seems I’m much more likely to roll an 11 next. Perhaps it’s how it’s designed, to help people get matched sets, but then this is not random and happens way too often. I’ve written software to test the randomness of various algorithms and this is not very random, or is very limited. After a rare item drops for instance, it seems that perhaps the results of first roll somehow gets stuck in memory. Perhaps the first roll not only determines the rarity, but but general build and the second roll determines the specific object. This would explain the behavior I’ve seen. Every time it’s happened to me, it’s always within minutes.

We live in a time where everyone expects perfect fairness and equality.
And it’s not that bad but it comes with the downside that you already know what to expect and it’s all linear.

I believe a mix of both is the way to go.
Chance for good loots but still tokens at the end.
Some things should remain RNG-only, other things should be “tokened”.

A crystalline sword isn’t as awesome when everyone is using it because they got it with “tokens”.

I believe to cast the issues around RNG here in terms of ‘fairness’ is a bit of a red herring. Ideally, a loot system handles a part of the ‘reward for play’ dynamic—fairness really doesn’t come into it at all.

The idea in games is that while we play for a variety of primary reasons (fantasy, abnegation, etc.), we play games because they are fun and rewarding. Part of that reward comes from the gameplay itself and part of it comes from that sweet, sweet loot. Even our characters know good loot when they see it and they respond to it verbally. And, in an MMO, you actually need loot to expand your characters, craft, travel, repair, etc. This is standard in all MMO’s.

So we like loot and we need loot and this is where the loot system comes in. First of all, the current system is not purely RNG, as that would only be appropriate for trash loot. There are some rules involved you can be sure. The bottom line is the loot system can be anything Anet wants it to be. There are a variety of models for a loot system and they can be hybridized and commonly are. As I mentioned, the notion of ‘fairness’ to make the issue contemporary is simply extra baggage here. What is desired is that the common player experience reward for playing the game beyond the gameplay itself. It’s the job of the loot system to pull this off.

Aegis.9724:

Ok, i can understand that, HOWEVER what many people don’t realize is that, on the opposite side, an MMO completely dry of RNG would be utterly boring, streamlined, and just not fun.

Wrong. Guess again.

Aegis.9724:

What if:
-Every enemy dropped the same amount of gold

Sounds good.

Aegis.9724:

-Anything you would do earns a streamlined amount of “equip” tokens you use to buy stuff

As long as the pay off is equivalent to the investment, ok.

Aegis.9724:

-All the chests had the same thing in it for everybody, ever

Not every chest is the same. Reward needs to equal investment. Also different chests can have different rewards. That wouldn’t be RNG, so long as the same chest always gave the same reward under the same conditions.

Aegis.9724:

-While entering fractals , you could choose the facets you want

Cool.

Aegis.9724:

-Crits and precision removed

Good. So long as the game is re-balanced for it.

Aegis.9724:

-Procs removed, instead you get a flat, lesser and underwhelming effect on any attack

If you do it poorly, such that they are underwhelming, yes, that would be bad. But that would be your flaw. Not the lack of a RNG.

If done right, good. Namely, procs could happen every x hits instead of a random chance. Instead of 30% to trigger, it would just trigger every third attack. Much better.

Aegis.9724:

-In pvp, you would only fight people of your same class, items and skill level

That’s just stupid. That has nothing to do with RNG. Strawman extraordinaire.

Aegis.9724:

-in WvW, unless two groups are composed by the same exact number of people, they can’t attack each other

Again, nothing to do with RNG. It’s not a random computer dice roll that decides how many people you fight.

Aegis.9724:

-Map, daily, monthly bonus item rewards removed

…Why? Those aren’t random. Hell, you’ll be able to choose your own soon enough.

Aegis.9724:

-etc… (make your own, there are hundreds more)

Yeah… You don’t really understand what an RNG is…

RNG is lazy design.

plain and simple.

Good for games like Ragnarok Online or other games alike. Bad for first class games that promotes to be something else.

-While entering fractals , you could choose the facets you want

I would pay for this feature, even if it were just optional. If I have to fight those dredge again I’m going to puke.

Good post. Most people just don’t the the flavor of a “living world”. It’s supposed to have a little chaos.

ProxyDamage.9826:

If done right, good. Namely, procs could happen every x hits instead of a random chance. Instead of 30% to trigger, it would just trigger every third attack. Much better.

The most recent game I have played to do this well (imo, of course) is Path of Exile. Say you have 42% evade rating. You WILL be evading 42% of attacks, and it is not a luck based system where you have a 42% chance to evade each and every attack.

Tuluum.9638:

ProxyDamage.9826:

If done right, good. Namely, procs could happen every x hits instead of a random chance. Instead of 30% to trigger, it would just trigger every third attack. Much better.

The most recent game I have played to do this well (imo, of course) is Path of Exile. Say you have 42% evade rating. You WILL be evading 42% of attacks, and it is not a luck based system where you have a 42% chance to evade each and every attack.

If the RNG is implemented properly, which I openly question and completely doubt, what you’re saying is the same thing. Again, if the RNG is implemented properly, over time “a 42% chance to evade each and every attack” will essentially be the same as “You WILL be evading 42% of attacks”. That said, with RNG you also have a chance of doing better than 42% as well as a chance of doing worse. Over time it will average.

That said, and I will keep saying it until I have proof otherwise, it’s my opinion that ANet’s RNG is faulty. Personally, I think they should be using a weighted RNG where every fail you hit slightly increases your change of a success.

Leamas.5803:

If the RNG is implemented properly, which I openly question and completely doubt, what you’re saying is the same thing. Again, if the RNG is implemented properly, over time “a 42% chance to evade each and every attack” will essentially be the same as “You WILL be evading 42% of attacks”. That said, with RNG you also have a chance of doing better than 42% as well as a chance of doing worse. Over time it will average.

With a random number generator, over time, it has a chance to average. Doesnt mean that it will! Just that it is statistically probable, but it is certainly not assured.

Of course, by removing a randomly generated number, you no longer have an RNG based system. While the results have the same aesthetic appearance, the cogs and gears are different. In such a system, with a 50% evade rating you will evade every other attack. There will not be a situation where you wont dodge a single attack 10 times in a row, then dodge every single attack 10 times in a row.

It allows for a more controlled and predictable system, inherently. Even if the outside user appearance amounts to roughly the same experience, it gives the opportunity for more direct balancing methods in any area where it is utilized with less variability.

So for the user, if both systems are implemented properly (which we agree that Anet has not done this), the front-end is indistinguishable. However, from the devs perspective, it is a different animal entirely. One that, imo, would allow for better balancing with less anomalies along with enabling the ability to make some items truly, truly scarce. Instead of the anomaly of a hundred people getting lucky and somehow obtaining it beyond the objective of the scarcity attempted by the RNG.

Tuluum.9638:

Leamas.5803:

If the RNG is implemented properly, which I openly question and completely doubt, what you’re saying is the same thing. Again, if the RNG is implemented properly, over time “a 42% chance to evade each and every attack” will essentially be the same as “You WILL be evading 42% of attacks”. That said, with RNG you also have a chance of doing better than 42% as well as a chance of doing worse. Over time it will average.

With a random number generator, over time, it has a chance to average. Doesnt mean that it will! Just that it is statistically probable, but it is certainly not assured.

Over time it will. With a percentage RNG, so 1..100, 10000 iterations will be almost linear with an average distribution of 100 hits per bucket with some variation, of course. If this isn’t the case, then your RNG is faulty.
Example of what it might look like…
http://logicalgenetics.com/assorted/upload/dist-uniform.gif

This IS the standard, default behavior of a well implemented RNG, anything else would be an aberration and anything drastically different would mean a problem with the RNG. The distribution will get more erratic with fewer samples and more linear more samples. Even chaos will often present order if given enough time.

What you’re asking for is not to have 42% of attacks evaded, it’s to evade 1 out of every 2.38 attacks and that is an entirely different thing…much less exciting. Without some randomness there’s no variety.

Ofc RNG is good, but not like the way GW2 is using it.. It’s just stupid. Vets mostly give you nothing, and normal mobs can give you an exotic =S This randomness. The most fun RNG u can have is boss drops/end-chest loot. But GW2 doesn’t even have this. You get tokens :s makes chests and looting vets/bosses so boring.. It’s the reason why i don’t do dungeons, because of tokens and bad looting system.

And i hate the DR system. Anet should just ban bots instead of letting them grind for a month and then ban them. But hey, it’s big money for anet, you let the companies bot, they make profit, anet bans the bots, they buy new accounts, and this happens over and over again → result: both companies make alot of money of it.

CoRtex.2157:

And i hate the DR system. Anet should just ban bots instead of letting them grind for a month and then ban them. But hey, it’s big money for anet, you let the companies bot, they make profit, anet bans the bots, they buy new accounts, and this happens over and over again -> result: both companies make alot of money of it.

This has been brought up a number of times. Without the bots, there is no need of DR. There are many ways to kills bots, but the new teleporting bots should be dead simple to kill. Disconnect their IP from the server side as soon as they teleport to a coordinate that is NOT a waypoint or other “allowed” point in the game. Ban the IP for repeated attempts. This should NOT be a difficult thing…the only conclusion being that they want the bots there for some reason or another…probably to keep DR in place, to prevent people from hardcore farming and to push more to use the gem store.

Leamas.5803:

Over time it will. With a percentage RNG, so 1..100, 10000 iterations will be almost linear with an average distribution of 100 hits per bucket with some variation, of course. If this isn’t the case, then your RNG is faulty.
Example of what it might look like…
http://logicalgenetics.com/assorted/upload/dist-uniform.gif

Well, for specific purposes the RNG would be faulty. The less predictable one is though, the more it walks towards truly being random. So, it would be a more capable RNG, just not for specific purposes like a video game.

What you’re asking for is not to have 42% of attacks evaded, it’s to evade 1 out of every 2.38 attacks and that is an entirely different thing…much less exciting. Without some randomness there’s no variety.

That is exactly what Im saying. RNG consistency notwithstanding, that was my whole point. But, to say its “much less exciting” is an interesting statement. When it comes to actual play, I notice very little difference. In other words, if the game is exciting, then Id be shocked to see people even notice the difference in combat, much less care.

Of course, with a proper fixed percentage system, the randomness appears just as random to the user when it comes to loot tables. And I doubt the user would be able to tell the difference in combat without being told, or at least a bit of study. Beyond that, it gives more control over the scarcity of the items.

I always found using an RNG system in a specifically non-random way to be an interesting use of a programming mechanic. To confine an RNG to specific results, as inherent to a game, then usually weighted to certain directions isnt really an RNG at all. Its end goal is the same as a fixed percentage system, just not realized that way from the ground up.

Anyway, the devs are going to do what they will do. I think we both know that. While its not perfect (Im looking at you culling), I have seen some things with the game that make me happy, so Im satisfied overall.

edit: Now if they would just make my air elemental float again… :\