Guild Wars 2

“Orr has no renown hearts, the quest-like activities that have been known to litter the lower-level areas, “because there are generally very few friendly NPCs in Orr.” Instead, players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events. There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game. Johanson suggested that players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone and fighting baddies at the frontlines.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07/12/arenanet-devs-talk-legendary-weapons-endgame-and-more/

Over the last few weeks I have posted several threads. These were an attempt to make people aware that part of the game; that many have been asking for; is present in the game, but is completely ignored.

Raiding is a large group of people with a central command structure that is assigned tasks to take down a target. This target could be a boss monster or a keep for example.

“The MMORPG (Guild Wars 2) is also set to feature variable difficulty, but not just by adjusting a few numbers. Depending on the size and strength of your party, you may have to approach quests in entirely different ways.”

http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/24/guild-wars-2-to-feature-over-1500-dynamic-events/

Stated above it clearly states the bigger the group the bigger the prize.

“There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains. Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas, putting emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game.”

This sure sound like raiding to be. So we the players need to make raid groups with a centralized command structure that can have sub-commanders that will control and maintain areas like the temples themselves for example to get some wonder rewards.

So to me Raiding is IN GW2 just no one does it.

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Almost every raid in almost every other MMO is very boring too, the only thing that makes them interesting is Teamspeak.

nachtnebel.9168:

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Almost every raid in almost every other MMO is very boring too, the only thing that makes them interesting is Teamspeak.

I disagree. You actually have to be in an organized group that uses various strategies. In GW2 we can literally autoattack our way through the content.
If that was the case, t having people on teamspeak will miraculously populate the orr events!

lol @ organised group using various strategies.

Raiding is post- temples not pre – temples.

Stop making assumptive states

Fernling.1729:

nachtnebel.9168:

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Almost every raid in almost every other MMO is very boring too, the only thing that makes them interesting is Teamspeak.

I disagree. You actually have to be in an organized group that uses various strategies. In GW2 we can literally autoattack our way through the content.

Back in my day I did a lot of rading in a lot of MMOs and that “organized group that uses various strategies” typically just consisted of 3-5 people, no matter how big the actual raid really was. All you basically need is a tank (sometimes 2, rarely 3), 1 tank healer (rarely a second), someone to call the shots and, in very rare circumstances someone to manage the CC. The rest of the raid had nothing important to do, they either did their rather simple job or screwed up by dying.
Yes, you need certain strategies but once they are figured out that part is done permanently, you don’t have to adapt them anymore cause raids never (or rarely) change.

If that was the case, t having people on teamspeak will miraculously populate the orr events!

Go and try a typical raid without Teamspeak. If everyone knows what he has to do you will succeed but you will also be bored to death because all you basically do is to spamming skills. But, if you perform that boring task called raiding together with friends it’s suddenly not that boring anymore and sometimes it’s even fun.

nachtnebel.9168:

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Almost every raid in almost every other MMO is very boring too, the only thing that makes them interesting is Teamspeak.

Ya but that is to you. And I’m sure there are many people like you. But you can’t speak for everyone can you?

CobaltSixty.1542:

lol @ organised group using various strategies.

You’re right, GW2 is the game that requires strategy. I guess I was succeeding in all Gw2 content wrong.

Krosslite.1950:

Raiding is post- temples not pre – temples.

Stop making assumptive states

I don’t think the terminology matters.

Even if you call it raiding. Do you think the GW2 raid look anything similar to the raid that is in other game? At least to me it is very different. And “some people” (not necessary you or me) want the sort of raid content that is in other game.

And there is a GW2 video, where the GW2 designer said themself this game have no raid. So even the game desginer don’t call that raid.

Fernling.1729:

CobaltSixty.1542:

lol @ organised group using various strategies.

You’re right, GW2 is the game that requires strategy. I guess I was succeeding in all Gw2 content wrong.

Good to see you finally get it right!

I see people doing the temples and event chains all the time. The only time I ever have a problem forming a group for them is at 2:00 AM.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I see people doing the temples and event chains all the time. The only time I ever have a problem forming a group for them is at 2:00 AM.

ya I see it quite often too. My guildmates yelled when people are doing temple events and it happen quite often.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I see people doing the temples and event chains all the time. The only time I ever have a problem forming a group for them is at 2:00 AM.

Your statement is vague,

What “events” are you refering.

The way you word it it sounds like temple and events in conjunctio.conjunction.

If so then you are refering to what I am referring to.

Temples must be won and kept. THEN DE Raiding begins starting from temples

Key statements from Anet in quotes I posted above.

1) players’ focus in Orr will be on huge events

2) There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones

3) these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains

4) Events tend to have farther-reaching effects than we’ve seen so far in lower-level areas

5) emphasis more on holistic zone control and cooperation than in the early game

6) players will need to recapture the fallen temples of the old gods and then keep control of those while also pushing deeper into the zone

So let me paraphrase here:

Player will need to cooperate to maintain control of the temples and the areas beyond that are more then twice those found in the rest of the game. These will be huge events that are linked together through a web instead of a chain that can cause separate results.

Now a huge group of events that need cooperation to maintain sounds more like raiding to me.

They will also not reset as fast as those in the lower levels.

If this is not “raiding” then what the heck have been doing in other MMOs for the past decade ore more? (EDIT: side note: actually been in MMOs for 20 years. Raiding didn’t start til 4 years into EverQuest after launch)

I thought I was raiding

People did these event chains, until they got nerfed.

Raiders dont want to accept that raiding exists in open world form because that isn’t how WoW did it, so therefor it isn’t valid. Nvm that WoW’s predecessor, Everquest, DID do it that way…

Sure someone could call the large event’s in Guildwars 2 “Raid’s” but to state that they are there as a “Good” way to facilitate “Raiding” in Guildwars 2 is simply wrong. Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number. Which makes content unexciting as a player in a large “Zerg” could literally do nothing but autoattack and get his gold at the end of the event.

If the content was specifically tailored for 10,20 or even 30 people then you would not have these problems. But of course the only way to achieve these means is to produce instanced raiding.

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

They also lack significant reward for time and effort invested.

Krosslite.1950:

If this is not “raiding” then what the heck have been doing in other MMOs for the past decade ore more? (EDIT: side note: actually been in MMOs for 20 years. Raiding didn’t start til 4 years into EverQuest after launch)

I thought I was raiding

Ya but do you think the raid (if you want to call it) in GW2 ressemble anything like the raid in “the other AAA mmorpg”(I don’t want to call out names seems that is like viral marketing).

The definition don’t matter. Some people want the “type of raid” that is in other mmorpg which GW2 dont’ have.

Aeonblade.8709:

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

They also lack significant reward for time and effort invested.

Believe it or not, but people will play games just for fun if they are good enough, Although, the rewards are some peoples definition of fun. For me, the DEs fail to do either one.

the problem is only one

RISEN… RISEN EVERYWHERE…. my eyes…

may i suggest we have more variety?

all risen is extremely pathetic to say the least

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Man, don’t hate. I snagged like 2g just from the Balth pre-events and another 5g from a sigil from Melandru. With a small group the fights are actually pretty intense.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Sure someone could call the large event’s in Guildwars 2 “Raid’s” but to state that they are there as a “Good” way to facilitate “Raiding” in Guildwars 2 is simply wrong. Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number. Which makes content unexciting as a player in a large “Zerg” could literally do nothing but autoattack and get his gold at the end of the event.

If the content was specifically tailored for 10,20 or even 30 people then you would not have these problems. But of course the only way to achieve these means is to produce instanced raiding.

“Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons” —- false statement EQ introduced raiding and was open world. all GW2 has done is removed griefing from the formula by letting everyone share

per Anet the more people that show up the greater the reward. If you maintain a core focused group through TS or mumble or something who cares of other people show up. Again the the problems with open world raiding in older MMOs does not apply to this one

also note that Orr has double the amount of DEs that the other zones have. SO you can have a lot of organized guild groups in various parts of the Orrian map.

Your reasons “not” to raid are actually reason WHY you should. Simply thanks for supporting making DE raid groups even though you didn’t realize you had

laokoko.7403:

Krosslite.1950:

If this is not “raiding” then what the heck have been doing in other MMOs for the past decade ore more? (EDIT: side note: actually been in MMOs for 20 years. Raiding didn’t start til 4 years into EverQuest after launch)

I thought I was raiding

Ya but do you think the raid (if you want to call it) in GW2 ressemble anything like the raid in “the other AAA mmorpg”(I don’t want to call out names seems that is like viral marketing).

The definition don’t matter. Some people want the “type of raid” that is in other mmorpg which GW2 dont’ have.

lets just say this.

Those that are skritts wish to hog all the pretties for themselves by having instanced dungeons.

THIS MMOs is not meant to horde the content but to SHARE it, but note that the only things people do in this game are things that allow them to horde it for themselves and not share.

Just call the people what they are skritts. I mean that very literally too.

from wikipedia:

Instanced or public raiding

“Raids can occur in an instanced zone or a public zone. An advantage to a raid being in an instanced zone is that the raid leader can control who participates. An advantage to a raid being in a public zone is that anyone is free to join the raid when they like, although they may be removed from the raid if they disrupt the original raid group. Disadvantages to public raids are that they are more susceptible to griefing, and sometimes cannot be rezoned, as an instanced raid can, unless the boss is reset by the server.”

“raid leader can control who participates” — Skrittism (elitist); non-community focused

“An advantage to a raid being in a public zone is that anyone is free to join the raid when they like” — community focused

“Disadvantages to public raids are that they are more susceptible to griefing, and sometimes cannot be rezoned, as an instanced raid can, unless the boss is reset by the server” —- no longer an issue with the mechanics of this game.

I have been in both EQ and WoW riading. I had the most fun in EQ’s period

Tolmos.8395:

Raiders dont want to accept that raiding exists in open world form because that isn’t how WoW did it, so therefor it isn’t valid. Nvm that WoW’s predecessor, Everquest, DID do it that way…

Yep I totally agreed with you on that.

Fernling.1729:

Believe it or not, but people will play games just for fun if they are good enough, Although, the rewards are some peoples definition of fun. For me, the DEs fail to do either one.

this generalization is typical of those that are talk about per-temple DEs.

Post-temple DEs are clearly list as challenging and complicated both of which sound like fun to me

Talloc.6835:

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Man, don’t hate. I snagged like 2g just from the Balth pre-events and another 5g from a sigil from Melandru. With a small group the fights are actually pretty intense.

must also state that these are PRE-temple DEs, which is not the DEs I am talking about here. Just think how much more you can rake in

Krosslite.1950:

I have been in both EQ and WoW riading. I had the most fun in EQ’s period

So you can clearly understand not all raid content is the same.

EQ raid is differnet than wow raid. Just like GW2 raid is different compare to the other.

And since you prefer the EQ type of raid over Wow. You should appreciate there are people like you too. There are people that prefer other type of raid compare to the GW2 type of raid.

So when people complain there is no “other type of raid content they want”, you should appreciate what they are talking about.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number.

Our definitions of “Always” are very different. Just because that is how WoW did it does not make it how it should be, especially considering the big raid game that came BEFORE WoW (Everquest) had open world raids.

I said it before and will say it again- just because WoW did something, doesn’t mean that it is how it should be!

vanilla onyxia vs teq. It’s kind of sad to compare the too, big loot difference also

Krosslite.1950:

So to me Raiding is IN GW2 just no one does it.

I somehow understand your point and agree to a certain level. The sad fate of PvE content is driven by the same twisted logic of PvP (“oh look, this build works greatly! let’s nerf it asap”); it has been proven that when the players feel REWARDED (from their pov, not from dev’s one…) they populate events to the point servers capacity saturates.
Look at FOTM: it’s boring -to me- after the first time you do it, but still it’s the only viable way to get good loot, so people mindlessly grind it.
Laurels? omg, daily is a chore, just give us Laurels for logging and it’s deal.
Put a guaranteed exotic drop for each Camp/Tower you conquer in WvWvW and people will seriously put up nice fights for it: they give us badges instead, who are good for nothing.
We have so many currencies that’s embarassing: but this is a way to force you into playing content you are not/barely interested in in order to get something you would like to have: I find boring FOTM, but if I want that cool Ascended stuff I am forced to do it. I like Arah’s armor set, but I don’t give a duck about that dungeon and I am forced to grind it if I want that armor set (through tokens), many people aren’t into pvp yet if they want to craft their beloved legendary they must collect 500 badges.

This is suicidal, A.Net.

Just shut down all currencies and keep one, let us play how WE want to play, let me buy dungeon tokens with badges, badges with tokens, karma with badges, tokens with karma. This is the right path.

I think the big issue they’re not considering raids is as follows…

One: It’s in the open world.
Two: It’s not in an instance that is just the group doing the raid.
Three: (In words some guilders might use) Those annoying little Kittens could run up and do things that could totally ruin the work we put into killing the boss, making it ten times harder.
Four: We have to WAIT to do the raid.
Five: People succeed at the defense enough times and we’ll never be able to do it in the first place.
Six: They start on THEIR timer, so some of our people might not be ready or miss it!

Mind you, I love the temple events (At least the ones I’ve done… never done Dwayna) and being in a group that pulled off Balthazar from start to finish, getting everyone to work together for a few hours after several failed escorts to finally get through and get those Obsidian Shards I needed for my Legendary, plus actually killing the guy for the first time… that was bloody awesome. Raiders would get annoyed by people constantly getting in their stuff, ruining their plans, and then forcing them to wait for everything to start or else rush in to do it when people aren’t ready.

THAT, I think, is what the raiders are upset about. Because it’s not exactly like “A dungeon, but with 8 times the people in the party” it’s not good enough.

Chessrook.8643:

I think the big issue they’re not considering raids is as follows…

One: It’s in the open world.
Two: It’s not in an instance that is just the group doing the raid.
Three: (In words some guilders might use) Those annoying little Kittens could run up and do things that could totally ruin the work we put into killing the boss, making it ten times harder.
Four: We have to WAIT to do the raid.
Five: People succeed at the defense enough times and we’ll never be able to do it in the first place.
Six: They start on THEIR timer, so some of our people might not be ready or miss it!

Mind you, I love the temple events (At least the ones I’ve done… never done Dwayna) and being in a group that pulled off Balthazar from start to finish, getting everyone to work together for a few hours after several failed escorts to finally get through and get those Obsidian Shards I needed for my Legendary, plus actually killing the guy for the first time… that was bloody awesome. Raiders would get annoyed by people constantly getting in their stuff, ruining their plans, and then forcing them to wait for everything to start or else rush in to do it when people aren’t ready.

THAT, I think, is what the raiders are upset about. Because it’s not exactly like “A dungeon, but with 8 times the people in the party” it’s not good enough.

I agree, guild missions need to change.
Oh, wait, you were talking about raids?

Tolmos.8395:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number.

Our definitions of “Always” are very different. Just because that is how WoW did it does not make it how it should be, especially considering the big raid game that came BEFORE WoW (Everquest) had open world raids.

I said it before and will say it again- just because WoW did something, doesn’t mean that it is how it should be!

What exactly are you referring to here? Nowhere in my comment did I state anything about World of Warcraft. And too the point about EQ; So what? While my inference on “Always” may have been untrue, the statement applies to the vast majority of “Raid” content in many Mmo’s. The fact of the matter is “Raiding” in a traditional sense cannot truly be fulfilled in this game in an open environment. As mechanic’s of fights have to take into consideration a “Zerg” group entering the fight. Which essentially dumb down the fight so that people can spam auto attacks. I think Bosses such as the Shatterer or Teqault may have had very different mechanics if the Dev team didn’t have to take into consideration “Zergs”.

I think you are seeing this problem through your own guise; I think your problem with raiding is that it resembles other “Mmo” structures. Which is a rather bad reason IMO to be so vocal against “Instanced raiding”.

nachtnebel.9168:

Fernling.1729:

These events in orr are very boring, which is why nobody does them.

Almost every raid in almost every other MMO is very boring too, the only thing that makes them interesting is Teamspeak.

umm thats not true, if it was no one would do the raids in other MMO"s you don’t need to raid to have your buddies/guildies on teamspeak :\

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Sure someone could call the large event’s in Guildwars 2 “Raid’s” but to state that they are there as a “Good” way to facilitate “Raiding” in Guildwars 2 is simply wrong. Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number. Which makes content unexciting as a player in a large “Zerg” could literally do nothing but autoattack and get his gold at the end of the event.

If the content was specifically tailored for 10,20 or even 30 people then you would not have these problems. But of course the only way to achieve these means is to produce instanced raiding.

“Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons” —- false statement EQ introduced raiding and was open world. all GW2 has done is removed griefing from the formula by letting everyone share

per Anet the more people that show up the greater the reward. If you maintain a core focused group through TS or mumble or something who cares of other people show up. Again the the problems with open world raiding in older MMOs does not apply to this one

also note that Orr has double the amount of DEs that the other zones have. SO you can have a lot of organized guild groups in various parts of the Orrian map.

Your reasons “not” to raid are actually reason WHY you should. Simply thanks for supporting making DE raid groups even though you didn’t realize you had

While my use of the word “Always” may have not been a absolute statement I do think that it applies to the majority of mmo’s. You claimed that making “Raiding” content open world reduces “Grief” how is that so? The experience of a “Challenging” fight is ruined by the introduction of a “Zerg” as it makes content unscalable to the level of players in the event. Therefore making the content not “Challenging”, which in my opinion is not “Good” raiding content.

Open world content can be fun; but it should not be implemented as “Raiding” content, atleast not in the state that its currently in. Which is auto-attack spamfests.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Sure someone could call the large event’s in Guildwars 2 “Raid’s” but to state that they are there as a “Good” way to facilitate “Raiding” in Guildwars 2 is simply wrong. Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number. Which makes content unexciting as a player in a large “Zerg” could literally do nothing but autoattack and get his gold at the end of the event.

If the content was specifically tailored for 10,20 or even 30 people then you would not have these problems. But of course the only way to achieve these means is to produce instanced raiding.

“Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons” —- false statement EQ introduced raiding and was open world. all GW2 has done is removed griefing from the formula by letting everyone share

per Anet the more people that show up the greater the reward. If you maintain a core focused group through TS or mumble or something who cares of other people show up. Again the the problems with open world raiding in older MMOs does not apply to this one

also note that Orr has double the amount of DEs that the other zones have. SO you can have a lot of organized guild groups in various parts of the Orrian map.

Your reasons “not” to raid are actually reason WHY you should. Simply thanks for supporting making DE raid groups even though you didn’t realize you had

While my use of the word “Always” may have not been a absolute statement I do think that it applies to the majority of mmo’s. You claimed that making “Raiding” content open world reduces “Grief” how is that so? The experience of a “Challenging” fight is ruined by the introduction of a “Zerg” as it makes content unscalable to the level of players in the event. Therefore making the content not “Challenging”, which in my opinion is not “Good” raiding content.

Open world content can be fun; but it should not be implemented as “Raiding” content, atleast not in the state that its currently in. Which is auto-attack spamfests.

To remove the Zerg you have to spread out the masses. I feel per the wording given us by Anet that can be done. You have to keep people locked down to certain spots, like the temples for example. Per Anet the Temples must be kept under our control or it will cause the areas beyond to be unfruitful.
But to spread out the masses you still need a controlling factor that only comes through when using a raiding format. Simple a central command structure with the lieutenants being given command of key hold points.

Also Anet has said that over half the DEs are in Orr and past the temples. That is a ton of content that can keep people spread all over the map and get most of the zerg out of the formula. Even though at time I feel a zerg will be welcomed.

It is like WvW for the PvE enviroment. Without structure you fail, but without chaos at the right time you also fail

Everyone does the Orr events on my server. The temples are almost never contested. They’re easily the most difficult events, but they don’t require organization. They’re very easy to do in a PUG.

So they’re not raiding, and I don’t know why you think people don’t do them right now.

@ CobaltSixty.1542lol @ organised group using various strategies.

how many bosses u down with 10 mages just with fireball ?

1. “There’s no end game. The game is too easy. I farm it 24/7 by slapping random body parts on the keyboard. Bad game”
2. “Here’s an endgame”
3. “WAHHH IT’s TOO HARD. I WANTED A CHALLENGE BUT THIS IS NOT GFUN! MAKE IT EASIER. BAD GAME”
3.25. Small minority of content gamers: Go to step 9
3.5. Small minority of skilled gamers: 25% go back to step 1, 75% to step 9
4. “It’s been made slightly easier”
5. “It’s too easy now. I farm it 24/7 by slapping my nose against the keyboard. WE need new content”
5.5 Others: The content is still too hard!!!!
6. “We’ll create a new zone. The players that are behind can play in the previous zone”
7. 85% Go back to Step 3
8. “I’m leaving this game. You suck, Anet, but I’m going to write 340 pages on why you suck of how you committed the crime of offending me” (50% chance of moving to step 8.5)
8.5 “I’m not actually leaving.”
9. “We’re releasing a patch with new content”
10. ???

^
hilarious…

Lopez.7369:

Everyone does the Orr events on my server. The temples are almost never contested. They’re easily the most difficult events, but they don’t require organization. They’re very easy to do in a PUG.

So they’re not raiding, and I don’t know why you think people don’t do them right now.

well they don’t on mine

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Krosslite.1950:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Sure someone could call the large event’s in Guildwars 2 “Raid’s” but to state that they are there as a “Good” way to facilitate “Raiding” in Guildwars 2 is simply wrong. Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons which provide progression in “Gear”; what is defined as an “Progression” is merely up to the developer. The problem with “Raiding/Lx Events” in Guildwars 2 is the fact the content is “Open” and allows an “Infinite” number of players to participate whilst reaching it max scaling point at a “Finite” number. Which makes content unexciting as a player in a large “Zerg” could literally do nothing but autoattack and get his gold at the end of the event.

If the content was specifically tailored for 10,20 or even 30 people then you would not have these problems. But of course the only way to achieve these means is to produce instanced raiding.

“Raiding content has always been about Instanced dungeons” —- false statement EQ introduced raiding and was open world. all GW2 has done is removed griefing from the formula by letting everyone share

per Anet the more people that show up the greater the reward. If you maintain a core focused group through TS or mumble or something who cares of other people show up. Again the the problems with open world raiding in older MMOs does not apply to this one

also note that Orr has double the amount of DEs that the other zones have. SO you can have a lot of organized guild groups in various parts of the Orrian map.

Your reasons “not” to raid are actually reason WHY you should. Simply thanks for supporting making DE raid groups even though you didn’t realize you had

While my use of the word “Always” may have not been a absolute statement I do think that it applies to the majority of mmo’s. You claimed that making “Raiding” content open world reduces “Grief” how is that so? The experience of a “Challenging” fight is ruined by the introduction of a “Zerg” as it makes content unscalable to the level of players in the event. Therefore making the content not “Challenging”, which in my opinion is not “Good” raiding content.

Open world content can be fun; but it should not be implemented as “Raiding” content, atleast not in the state that its currently in. Which is auto-attack spamfests.

To remove the Zerg you have to spread out the masses. I feel per the wording given us by Anet that can be done. You have to keep people locked down to certain spots, like the temples for example. Per Anet the Temples must be kept under our control or it will cause the areas beyond to be unfruitful.
But to spread out the masses you still need a controlling factor that only comes through when using a raiding format. Simple a central command structure with the lieutenants being given command of key hold points.

Also Anet has said that over half the DEs are in Orr and past the temples. That is a ton of content that can keep people spread all over the map and get most of the zerg out of the formula. Even though at time I feel a zerg will be welcomed.

It is like WvW for the PvE enviroment. Without structure you fail, but without chaos at the right time you also fail

Although what you are saying would be a “Good” way of making the DE content more challenging; It suffers same flaws as the current system, as “Zergs” could simply move from one event to the next. Making the content the same of “Spam-fest”, as we have currently. For example; I just did Melandru on SBI; during the whole fight I was checking my E-mail’s and Youtube videos while autoattacking. But of course this doesn’t mean the content is bad or dull, It just means that it can be done in a “Zerg” without people paying any attention.

Releasing raid in the WoW format of instanced raids with high loot tables is a slippery slope that I am sure Arenanet doesn’t want to get on.

If you add the raid and only have it drop ascended/exotic gear, the raiders will whine and cry that they DESERVE (yay baseless sense of entitlement) better. So they add new gear to raids, and make it better than what is currently available. If they don’t make the same gear available to the rest of the game, everyone gets funneled into raids and it becomes another end game instanced-raid WoW clone like the dozens of others out there. If they DO add equivalent gear to the rest of the game, the raiders bloated sense of entitlement will have them screaming that no one else but them deserves that level of equipment (just go read the WoW or Rift forums for examples of this).

So… do you add a raid with no new gear, only current gear, to the game and have the raiders whine and cry anyway because they don’t get new, phat lootz OR do you add the raid to the game, add new phat lootz and then deal with the backlash your future choices regarding that will bring OR do you just not add raids at all?

I dunno, I’m a lazy SOB, so I’d choose just to overlook instanced raids and let those players get their instanced raiding done in the 200+ WoW clones that exist already, while giving the players of this game EQ style open world raids.

Tolmos.8395:

Releasing raid in the WoW format of instanced raids with high loot tables is a slippery slope that I am sure Arenanet doesn’t want to get on.

If you add the raid and only have it drop ascended/exotic gear, the raiders will whine and cry that they DESERVE (yay baseless sense of entitlement) better. So they add new gear to raids, and make it better than what is currently available. If they don’t make the same gear available to the rest of the game, everyone gets funneled into raids and it becomes another end game instanced-raid WoW clone like the dozens of others out there. If they DO add equivalent gear to the rest of the game, the raiders bloated sense of entitlement will have them screaming that no one else but them deserves that level of equipment (just go read the WoW or Rift forums for examples of this).

So… do you add a raid with no new gear, only current gear, to the game and have the raiders whine and cry anyway because they don’t get new, phat lootz OR do you add the raid to the game, add new phat lootz and then deal with the backlash your future choices regarding that will bring OR do you just not add raids at all?

I dunno, I’m a lazy SOB, so I’d choose just to overlook instanced raids and let those players get their instanced raiding done in the 200+ WoW clones that exist already, while giving the players of this game EQ style open world raids.

This whole argument you put forth is a baseless assertion; You cannot merely assume that people will complain about not getting “Phat Loot” from Raiding content. And if they did so what? People complain about loot tables and Ascended gear all the time, does that mean Arenanet should somehow not make content? From what I’ve seen from all the Raid topic’s; People who are advocating raid’s are not advocating for “Gear Progression”. I’m sure your aware of these other forums as I recall having this same conversation with you, and yet you continue to beat the “Strawman”. You repeatedly infer that “Instanced Raiding” is a WoW thing when it’s not, and even if it was so what? WoW is a “Good” game, that’s why its been so prominent.

What I and many others are asking for is this:
1. Large scaled grouped content (Instanced environment)
2. Aesthetic items exclusive to the raid. (Avenues for Ascended items)
3. Challenging encounters.
4. Guild rewards (Like Guild missions)
5. For it to be Elite content like Urgoz Warren or The Deep.

Martin The Brave.8731:

You repeatedly infer that “Instanced Raiding” is a WoW thing when it’s not, and even if it was so what? WoW is a “Good” game, that’s why its been so prominent.

Well, since this game is NOT WoW, has no intention of becoming WoW, and there a few hundred WoW clones already present in the world… I don’t see this game adding on its primary selling points, so this is all pretty much a moot point anyway.

Instanced raids will probably arrive at the same time as the trinity system and flying mounts.

Martin The Brave.8731:

From what I’ve seen from all the Raid topic’s; People who are advocating raid’s are not advocating for “Gear Progression”. I’m sure your aware of these other forums as I recall having this same conversation with you, and yet you continue to beat the “Strawman”.

This and the “I think its funny” thread are the only two threads on which I’ve discussed raiding in this game. I’ve been on a several month hiatus (since last November), so whoever you are remembering- it wasn’t me. I’m a brand new thorn in your side, I’m afraid

Martin The Brave.8731:

What I and many others are asking for is this:
1. Large scaled grouped content (Instanced environment)
2. Aesthetic items exclusive to the raid. (Avenues for Ascended items)
3. Challenging encounters.
4. Guild rewards (Like Guild missions)
5. For it to be Elite content like Urgoz Warren or The Deep.

On these points Martin I wish to comment.

First off remember GW2 is suppose to be a community centric game. Admittedly I am not seeing the community. The formula I have placed out there; I believe; is the formula Anet had/has in mind for this game.

Instanced encounters; which most guilds now do and cater to; in my eyes is not community centric.

To me this is a form of elitism which Anet felt needed to go, but could only carry this desire so far since their main goal was to cater to as many playing styles as possible. So for the elitist we have the instances we now have in the game.

I myself am a more community minded person. My goals are lofty and maybe even unattainable. Still these points need to raised.

You even stated that my idea was “Good” even though in quotation marks. It was good because it was community centric. It placed guilds in command with the zerg as tool to be taken advantage of.

Can we get rid of zergs in an open world game like this? No, should we take advantage of it when we can? Most definitely.

Change of subject:

Some have stated that have been to the DEs beyond the temples. My question to that is how many people were involved and has anyone started documenting the webs and where can we find this documentation?

Tolmos.8395:

Martin The Brave.8731:

You repeatedly infer that “Instanced Raiding” is a WoW thing when it’s not, and even if it was so what? WoW is a “Good” game, that’s why its been so prominent.

Well, since this game is NOT WoW, has no intention of becoming WoW, and there a few hundred WoW clones already present in the world… I don’t see this game adding on its primary selling points, so this is all pretty much a moot point anyway.

Instanced raids will probably arrive at the same time as the trinity system and flying mounts.

Martin The Brave.8731:

From what I’ve seen from all the Raid topic’s; People who are advocating raid’s are not advocating for “Gear Progression”. I’m sure your aware of these other forums as I recall having this same conversation with you, and yet you continue to beat the “Strawman”.

This and the “I think its funny” thread are the only two threads on which I’ve discussed raiding in this game. I’ve been on a several month hiatus (since last November), so whoever you are remembering- it wasn’t me. I’m a brand new thorn in your side, I’m afraid

It’s very strange that you have cherry picked most of my comment, and Yet again you’ve equated “Raiding” content with WoW, which is simply fallacious. “Raiding” content as described in my 5 point’s existed in Guildwar 1. Are you then saying Guildwars 1 is a WoW copy? You’ve also accompanied the Idea the “Raiding” content is synonymous with the Trinity and Mounts. When most advocates of “Raiding” content have not asked for any of these installments. Again you are attacking positions that I and others are not asserting here.

Secondly I did reply to you, In another thread about the same issue the name of the thread was; Philosophy on raids. Lastly you may have been on a three month hiatus from the game, but not the forum.

If they didn’t want to copy other MMOs why add dungeons in the first place gw factions and nightfall had 0 dungeons they came in the awful eotn xpac, gw2 should just focus on de and open world loot and forget dungeons, add the challenge games from factions and night fall but If I wanted a dungeon farming game I know a few games that do them better.