Guild Wars 2

Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc? It seems nobody want’s to do raids unless someone has handed them the exact guide on a plate.

It’s getting lame but I’m not changing a working build just to be “allowed” to participate in raids.

Well, don’t then. make your own raid group with everyone having whatever build they feel like using.

Welcome to Raids in MMOs…no one cares how good you are..meta or get out. It’s why I don’t play the raids.

It’s your right not to. Form your own group and play how you want. BUT don’t force others to play your way either… see how that works?

Oh I intend to, just wanted to gauge the response to see if there was more of a meta cadre on here or actual players!

There is a reason for meta builds. People want to get raids done fast. Not wait around for someone who has a terrible build/arnor set. Most of these people arent being snobs. Its usually soneone being to sensetive. This content just requires certain things. (people have done it in all greens and what not but those are thr same people who make the meta builds so id say they are above average) the average player who does raids just wants to get them done with as little pain as possible.

This is also coming from a player who hasnt killed a raid boss. Mostly out of being to lazy to do them more. I just stick to faceroll t4 fractals for now.

Tsumiju.3071:

Oh I intend to, just wanted to gauge the response to see if there was more of a meta cadre on here or actual players!

In other words, you know how to fix your problem but you wanted to post a complaint about how other people play.

It’s not playing sitting in the lobby criticising other players builds without seeing how the player can handle themselves firsthand.

Tsumiju.3071:

It’s not playing sitting in the lobby criticising other players builds without seeing how the player can handle themselves firsthand.

It’s not playing posting on the forum complaining about other people either.

Tsumiju.3071:

Oh I intend to, just wanted to gauge the response to see if there was more of a meta cadre on here or actual players!

And what exactly will the handful of answers from the people that post on the forums tell you? If everyone had said use the meta builds they wouldn’t be actual players?

no but it does give me a worse case assessment of whether I should recruit using the lfg tool or not, so thank-you for the useful data.

The handful of answers are actually quite useful when accounted with other information.

I don’t know if this works in GW2 but in GW1 I found the simple solution to the problem was to make up a name for my build.

In that game the skills you chose were the main aspect of your build and groups would often ask you to share your skill bar in chat so they could decide whether they thought it looked good or not.

Honestly 9 times out of 10 the people making the call had no real idea what they were doing. If I told them I made the build up myself, I’ve used it in this dungeon/mission/whatever many times before and it works they’d kick me. If I told them I can’t remember what site I got it from but it’s called [whatever I felt like calling it at the time] (‘DOT + Profession name’ was a common form, or AoE + profession name) they’d accept it, no questions asked.

(Or if they were particularly observant I’d have to explain one detail, like I had a fiery bow string to go with Mark of Rodgort or yes, Dervishes do have AoE skills.)

Danikat.8537:

I don’t know if this works in GW2 but in GW1 I found the simple solution to the problem was to make up a name for my build.

In that game the skills you chose were the main aspect of your build and groups would often ask you to share your skill bar in chat so they could decide whether they thought it looked good or not.

Honestly 9 times out of 10 the people making the call had no real idea what they were doing. If I told them I made the build up myself, I’ve used it in this dungeon/mission/whatever many times before and it works they’d kick me. If I told them I can’t remember what site I got it from but it’s called [whatever I felt like calling it at the time] they’d accept it, no questions asked. (Or if they were particularly observant I’d have to tell them I had a fiery bow string to go with Mark of Rodgort, which only affected fire attacks.)

That’s quite a useful suggestion!!! – I’ll be trying this a few times for more info

TheShniper.1852:

There is a reason for meta builds. People want to get raids done fast. Not wait around for someone who has a terrible build/arnor set. Most of these people arent being snobs.

The first part of this I agree with, and is a perfectly fine attitude. I totally understand people wanting to get through content as quickly and painlessly as possible. It’s the second part that gets to me..

Just because someones build/armor set isn’t EXACTLY what YOU consider meta, doesn’t mean it’s “terrible build/armor set”. That mentality, and condescending attitude is being a snob.

While it is true some people are more sensitive about comments. If you walk up to someone and say “your build is terrible and your armor/stat layout is terrible” Do you really think that will be well received? Or is it more likely to be considered an insulting…

Danikat.8537:

I don’t know if this works in GW2 but in GW1 I found the simple solution to the problem was to make up a name for my build.

In that game the skills you chose were the main aspect of your build and groups would often ask you to share your skill bar in chat so they could decide whether they thought it looked good or not.

Honestly 9 times out of 10 the people making the call had no real idea what they were doing. If I told them I made the build up myself, I’ve used it in this dungeon/mission/whatever many times before and it works they’d kick me. If I told them I can’t remember what site I got it from but it’s called [whatever I felt like calling it at the time] (‘DOT + Profession name’ was a common form, or AoE + profession name) they’d accept it, no questions asked.

(Or if they were particularly observant I’d have to explain one detail, like I had a fiery bow string to go with Mark of Rodgort or yes, Dervishes do have AoE skills.)

I love this purely for the audacity behind it and the fact that it worked on ppl

Randulf.7614:

I love this purely for the audacity behind it and the fact that it worked on ppl

Yeah that is quite a ballsy move

The purpose of “meta” is so that the raid group works together decently without having to reorganize and theorycraft every time a person joins. Also, rolling with a custom build requires you having a clear picture of the role you’re fulfilling and if you can do that adequately, which I’m not sure if you can do with no raid experience.
On the upside you can always make your own squad and raid with like-minded players.

Disclosure – I’ve been the GW2 raid but haven’t successfully cleared a boss. So, obviously my perspective is quite limited.

I’ve played other MMOs and, in past years, raided a lot (even successfully). So, first, every game that I’ve played had the same type of dynamic as the OP cites. There were preferred builds, weapons, and rotations along with everything else. Entire websites sprang up to define, for each game and even in some cases, specific raids, how to build, gear, etc. Nothing new here.

Second, the most common response that I’ve seen in other games is exactly what others in the thread have suggested. Starting your own raid group. As an alternative, get into a guild that does raids and is willing to work with members. I was fortunate in this game that my limited experience was with a guild group. Our leader was very good about working with members on their builds, rotations, utilities, etc. In the end, we weren’t successful because we could simply not get enough people to stay focused week after week. But, I have to give super high marks to the raid leader for his patience and professionalism in helping us.

So, to the OP’s point, yes, there is some of that elitism that exists among raid groups that PUG individual members in. It happens here…happens in other games. The reality is, for those groups, it’s their group and they get to decide. It seems, from my limited perspective, that you have three options. First, start your own group and set your own rules. Second, follow the meta and try to fit in. Third, join a guild that raids and will help. Actually, there’s a fourth option…pretty much what I’ve done…don’t raid.

Probably not what the OP wanted to hear…but not sure what else is possible. Best of luck.

honestly i love how people say form your own group. sure i will. as soon as lfg isnt spammed with “SELLING RAIDS” bs. they should be banning those people.

sophiewhite.3149:

honestly i love how people say form your own group. sure i will. as soon as lfg isnt spammed with “SELLING RAIDS” bs. they should be banning those people.

Why exactly should they be banned? They aren’t doing anything against the rules.

Not everybody cares about you having a meta build. Just today my guild was putting together a raid group, advertising “No Experience Necessary”

Berelious.3290:

Not everybody cares about you having a meta build. Just today my guild was putting together a raid group, advertising “No Experience Necessary”

That’s a guild philosophy I can get behind!

This is a lot more shameful then most elitist I’ve met. You’re just being as toxic as they are on the opposite side of the spectrum. Being inflexible isn’t exactly a good quality when trying to raid with 9 strangers.

I have been very vocal about this very topic, but from a different perspective.

Personally, I feel the issue is with the limited design of the raids themselves. While I do think playing at the highest level (which does include min/maxing) should result in the highest reward, there should be a raiding experience for people like the OP who enjoy different playstyles.

To me, the answer is variable difficulties with scaling rewards, thus offering raid experiences for people with a wider range of playstyles. This isn’t unprecedented (in fact, most of the game works this way) and is something the raid developers should strongly consider.

Tsumiju.3071:

Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc? It seems nobody want’s to do raids unless someone has handed them the exact guide on a plate.

Neither statement is correct, as you’ve phrased them.

• People do not rely on exact builds. Some training guilds recommend different builds.
• Plenty of people who are experienced raiders run other things, once they know what works.

Tsumiju.3071:

It’s getting lame but I’m not changing a working build just to be “allowed” to participate in raids.

You’ve conflated two different ideas.

• Your build might ‘work’ in one game mode, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good choice for other modes. For example, lots of great PvE builds won’t work in WvW or sPvP or vice versa.
• It’s not about being ‘allowed’ to participate, it’s about understanding that you are not yet as experienced as the raid organizers. They know what’s required to succeed; you do not — not because you’re not clever or skilled enough, only because you haven’t seen it in action.

I’m a very experienced driver, but that doesn’t give me the knowledge to race at speeds double (or more) of what I drive on the freeway. Everything I know about being a ‘good’ driver on public roads isn’t enough to help me succeed on a race track. I rely on experts to show me what I need to do, including changing my idea of how positioning, speed when I reach a curve, and (to my chagrin) how often I need to look for other vehicles (hint for that last one: never, when I’m with a trainer).

tl;dr if you want to participate in someone else’s organized raid, then presume that they have good reasons for asking people to run certain builds. If you feel restricted by that, organize your own raid group and figure out what works by trial and error.

Miku.6297:

TheShniper.1852:

There is a reason for meta builds. People want to get raids done fast. Not wait around for someone who has a terrible build/arnor set. Most of these people arent being snobs.

The first part of this I agree with, and is a perfectly fine attitude. I totally understand people wanting to get through content as quickly and painlessly as possible. It’s the second part that gets to me..

Just because someones build/armor set isn’t EXACTLY what YOU consider meta, doesn’t mean it’s “terrible build/armor set”. That mentality, and condescending attitude is being a snob.

While it is true some people are more sensitive about comments. If you walk up to someone and say “your build is terrible and your armor/stat layout is terrible” Do you really think that will be well received? Or is it more likely to be considered an insulting…

Actually, I’m not sure if it’s about “Get it done quickly” as much as “Get it done at all”. Raids have extremely rigid, punishing mechanics, and an Enrage Timer that prevents passive/survival play. They also require close teamwork – If you’re gonna run as a PUG, you need to have the role you fill already fit a functional composition. It’s especially important to have the best stats possible if you’re inexperienced (Sure, pro groups do it in greens. But new raiders are best using at least ascended weapons+trinkets and exotic armor for the leeway in damage and armor they provide).

You are correct, snobs that think their special snowflake build and way of playing is more important than doing what is necessary to make the team successful have no place in raiding.

They also have no place in team PvP, or basically any sort of team environment in any walk of life.

Miku.6297:

Just because someones build/armor set isn’t EXACTLY what YOU consider meta, doesn’t mean it’s “terrible build/armor set”. That mentality, and condescending attitude is being a snob.

I don’t think everyone thinks that players not using a meta build have terrible build/armor sets. They just don’t know how good or bad it is and would rather get someone using a build they know is good (the meta) instead of risking it being a person with a terrible build/armor set.

Some probably do think that every build that is not meta is terrible, but it’s not everyone who does.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Ensign.2189:

You are correct, snobs that think their special snowflake build and way of playing is more important than doing what is necessary to make the team successful have no place in raiding.

They also have no place in team PvP, or basically any sort of team environment in any walk of life.

I’m loving the irony.

You mean like the irony of the OP saying people who use meta builds are snobs then saying the people who use meta builds aren’t actual players?

Yes. This thread is full of irony.

MoarChaos.8320:

This is a lot more shameful then most elitist I’ve met. You’re just being as toxic as they are on the opposite side of the spectrum. Being inflexible isn’t exactly a good quality when trying to raid with 9 strangers.

Well it’s not like you get the chance to be flexible as you’re often faced with being kicked for refusing to link your gear, then kicked upon inspection if you don’t follow the meta like a good little lamb.

Ameepa.6793:

I think the point there was that others have the same right to play how they want as you have the right to play how you want. It is you yourself who has to make that decision.

If you insist playing with meta people, you have to adapt to meta needs.
If you want to play your own way, you have to find like minded people to play with.

Two groups do not mix well.

Choice is yours.

Sadly it’s hard to “decide” who to play with, it’s more a case of joining lots of groups and having them waste your time by going through every player’s gear to find the non-meta builds :/

Tsumiju.3071:

Ameepa.6793:

I think the point there was that others have the same right to play how they want as you have the right to play how you want. It is you yourself who has to make that decision.

If you insist playing with meta people, you have to adapt to meta needs.
If you want to play your own way, you have to find like minded people to play with.

Two groups do not mix well.

Choice is yours.

Sadly it’s hard to “decide” who to play with, it’s more a case of joining lots of groups and having them waste your time by going through every player’s gear to find the non-meta builds :/

Don’t join meta groups if you are not meta and they won’t waste your time and you won’t waste their time.

That’s why people are suggesting you to try to form your own group to find other like minded people to play with. They probably are not even nearly as numerous as meta people, but who knows, you might find enough to start the raid.

What you are doing now is trying to force others to adapt to your style because you do not want to adapt to their style. It does not work. Complaining about the exact same thing you are doing yourself.

MoarChaos.8320:

“I showed up. I don’t care what you set up with your mostly guild group. Cater to me?” I don’t know if that’s how you intend to sound, but it is what you’re asking of people.

You will always find like minded people if you make your own group. Demanding people learn what your build does, and accept you into their raid isn’t a thing.

Catering would mean others switching their gear to support mine, that’s an incorrect assessment. What would be nice however is to get into a squad and actually see some combat first, if things aren’t working out DPS wise or healer wise or whatever, ask people what other characters they have, and ways round it. Kicks and cries of “you dont meta” shouldn’t be the norm.

Tsumiju.3071:

So YOU get to decide that I need to spend months and a ton of gold refitting my gear to suit YOUR playstyle but won’t even discuss other players ways of doing things?

If he takes the responsibility of organising/leading the raid group, of course he has the right to determine what kind of players get into his group. The freedom of “play what you want” is restricted in a team environment, as there are 9 other players who have their own interests. And I doubt most players are interested in carrying a staff-camping nomad guard with full spirit weapons (or a comparable special snowflake build you seem to be so fond of).

CMM.6712:

It’s your right not to. Form your own group and play how you want. BUT don’t force others to play your way either… see how that works?

Excelsior.

The thread creator allows EVERYONE to play the way they want – INCLUDING meta builds.
The meta sheeps however scrap that idea. So what is your point again against the TC?

CptAurellian.9537:

If he takes the responsibility of organising/leading the raid group, of course he has the right to determine what kind of players get into his group. The freedom of “play what you want” is restricted in a team environment, as there are 9 other players who have their own interests. And I doubt most players are interested in carrying a staff-camping nomad guard with full spirit weapons (or a comparable special snowflake build you seem to be so fond of).

There’s no determination about the “kind” of player based on just linking gear and not talking to them about even the concept of “will it work with what we’re doing” if the commander had said “we’re looking for DPS stats like yours, but need more stuns, what skills are you using” then that would be better but just kicking and then sending a tell directing me to metabattle to fix my “wrong build” is just lame.

Tsumiju.3071:

CptAurellian.9537:

If he takes the responsibility of organising/leading the raid group, of course he has the right to determine what kind of players get into his group. The freedom of “play what you want” is restricted in a team environment, as there are 9 other players who have their own interests. And I doubt most players are interested in carrying a staff-camping nomad guard with full spirit weapons (or a comparable special snowflake build you seem to be so fond of).

There’s no determination about the “kind” of player based on just linking gear and not talking to them about even the concept of “will it work with what we’re doing” if the commander had said “we’re looking for DPS stats like yours, but need more stuns, what skills are you using” then that would be better but just kicking and then sending a tell directing me to metabattle to fix my “wrong build” is just lame.

Well that was a terrible commander, not all of them are like that. As for the preference of meta builds in pugs, they do it because it’s faster. Most of those groups are not there to train on the bosses but kill them. They don’t want to spend time teaching everyone the mechanics of the fight or the proper builds for the fights, they expect them to be ready beforehand and that’s because of one reason: speed.
Sometimes meta builds change, the best builds change, but the community is slow to follow and still expect the old meta builds instead of the new ones. For example I still remember for how long 4 Warriors + 1 Mesmer was considered “meta” by many people even long after it wasn’t.
If everyone comes with knowledge of the fight and the best build possible, then it saves everyone’s time as they can start killing sooner. That’s the nature of a meta.

If you don’t have a “meta” build you’d better join a training run, there are some around.

Tsumiju.3071:

if the commander had said

The commander in this case has already said. They said run a meta-build. You need to get over this, you are not being singled out but are instead making yourself stand out. “I refuse to conform” just means you aren’t going to get in a raid.
And the thing is, that is probably a good thing. Because when the commander says “right, you need to get on teamspeak”, are you going to refuse and insist everyone uses mumble?
And when the commander says “take out the big boss against the wall” are you going to refuse and start arguing about it being better to take out the small guy in the far corner first?
There’s a reason for the builds, they’re not made up. It’s from experience of what works. The second you start going “well I’ve got this other build..” you’re inconveniencing a bunch of other people who have the right build to get the job done. As has been said, make your own group and see how that goes. I suspect not well because this isn’t something you get carried on and people will just quit your group when you can’t get through the content.

It has also been said that you could join a training/raid guild. If you joined mine we’d still insist you had a metabattle build. And if we had enough PS warriors and you were another a PS warrior, you wouldn’t get in. Raids are about builds and team composition so I’d recommend having a few characters you can raid on if you are serious about raiding.

I somehow feel for you OP, though I’m not sure if you’re taking the right approach here.
See, I don’t like following metabattle.com and to follow all those guides word by word myself. I enjoyed GW1 for the very reason, that if you were smart enough, you could come over everything just by creativity. Sabway, Discordway, Spiritway etc.- for a long time I didn’t even know what those ment and still got everything done with balanced team builds or making quick adjustments when playing with real players. Later I found out, that my own team builds used some parts of the before mentioned “meta” builds, but there were still alot of things I approached differently that still worked and were equally efficient.
Now times changed and GW2 is quite different than GW1. Let me elaborate:
By “times changed” I’m talking about Information distribution. Information is available faster and faster nowadays. New LS season? Wait a couple of hours and Dulfy presents you a complete guide to everything. Ofc it’s each and everyone’s own decision wether to look things up there or not, but thing is- many people do. And by doing so, two things happen. First, they gain an advantage over people that don’t read the guides, they now exactly when they have to do what to get X done.
Second, expectations change. Someone who looked up everything about X will more likely expect everyone else to do so aswell and will less likely take his time and explain everything or even discuss things if there are different viable approaches. One can read up how to be succesfull, so he expexts them to do so.
Now the differences between GW1 and GW2. GW1 had thousands of skills and thus a whole lot of combinations that worked well together. Some were quite obvious, some others not, but they still were there. In return, the gameplay itself I feel was more relaxing. I always compared it to playing a piano- if you set up everything right you just had to push the buttons in the right order to enjoy the music, or well, the slaughter.
GW2 on the other hand is very simplyfied when it comes to buildcrafting, there’s quite few room for efficient builds for a specific role, many Specialisations are mandatory and gear-wise the general route is also pretty much carved in stone.
So the irony here is, that almost every build that gets stuff done efficiently will inevitably have a lot in common with the so called meta builds (I’d estimate about 90% at the least).
This makes me feel the gameplay is much more demanding when it comes to more challenging content, since movement and active defense is way more important while and one has to improvise more often.

So why am I writing all this, since I said at the beginning that I feel your issue? Keeping in mind what I wrote above, I simply don’t bother with ppl strictly following “the meta” anymore, since the whole way GW2 is set up, it rewards this behaviour greatly and thus I can understand why people act the way they do.
But since dull copy&pasting is not my playstyle, I simply avoid every lfg that has some “meta” in it, cuz the chances you’ll either meet some “snobs” or copy&pasters not knowing kitten are quite high (though I’m sure that most of those ppl would barely notice any difference).

What is the consequence of this? Though my wife and I would love to experience the raids, we still havent. In addition to not running strict meta builds, we also have a strong aversion against any form of voice-comm (yeah, it makes things easier, but we strongly believe that if everyone knows his role, has learned the encounter and sticks to his/her job, anything can be succesfully done without it).
So for now we accepted things the way they are and don’t bother too much about, since we’re also moving to a new place in the next few weeks (which means even less spare time, a lot of things to coordinate etc. etc.). But when it’s all set and done, we’re probably try to get our little family&friends guild a bit more running and hopefully find some like-minded, flexible people. And then we’re hopefully going to raid aswell.

tl;dr: you can’t change the way things are, but you can change your PoV and the way you approach things

Miku.6297:

[…]
Just because someones build/armor set isn’t EXACTLY what YOU consider meta, doesn’t mean it’s “terrible build/armor set”. That mentality, and condescending attitude is being a snob.

While it is true some people are more sensitive about comments. If you walk up to someone and say “your build is terrible and your armor/stat layout is terrible” Do you really think that will be well received? Or is it more likely to be considered an insulting…

A very wise reply this is.

It’s the reason I stopped doing dungeons and raids in mmo’s.

Back in the days of old Dungeons and raids used to be played because of the thrill and adventure. Somewhere along the road someone picked up a stopwatch and others started to fill the internet with “the best way to beat X boss” and all hell broke loose

I have a build which I find fun to play and I’m not changing that because other people demand you to play your class a specific way. Yes sadly this means I’m not gonna enter a raid or dungeon soon, but so be it.
To each his own I say. I personally like to see a lot of different builds in an mmo, it makes the mmo feel more lively.
I remember loving the different combo’s you could get when getting a few different builds together.

It’s also a never ending battle, on one side people want endless build varities with every class, on the other side people want a meta build for each class, thus killing the build variety.

Shame though that Anet pushes people into raids when they want full masteries and a working XP bar (somehow it works on your psyche) .

A meta is not simply being decided upon by a few players who prefer it that way. It is the colaboration of thousands of players with a lot of trial and error. Those builds have been proven to be effective if used with the right meta strategy.
Many feel like it is the only thing that could ever work or nothing better could possibly exist. That is of course silly as the meta does indeed constantly, even if slowly, evolve and change. New ideas find their way into it eventually.

There are two sides to this one, though. Isn’kitten bit silly to see those with little experience in raids argue so hearthfully against builds which have been proven to be effective thousands of times?
Makes me wonder if the entire thing isn’t more about wanting to feel special for running something nobody else does than actually playing a good build?

I feel like both sides can take this one way too far sometimes. Play whatever you want to play. Make your own party with whichever requirements you wish to set but respects others ideas and wishes to run anything (yes this includes a full meta party) they like.

Henry.5713:

I feel like both sides can take this one way too far sometimes.

Absolutely.

Henry.5713:

Play whatever you want to play. Make your own party with whichever requirements you wish to set but respects others ideas and wishes to run anything (yes this includes a full meta party) they like.

The biggest issue for the OP is that people take the path of least resistance, especially when loot is involved. When someone makes a build and tells you “if you press 1121131121134511” then you’re playing as efficiently as it’s possible to play at the current time" it’s much, much easier to filter out everyone who doesn’t use that than it is to filter people into two groups; “builds that work even though they’re not meta” and “builds that are undeniable fail”.

All that said, the attitude of some folk on this issue is just appalling.

Build wars!

person 1: You HAVE to do (X) in your build or you are a noob.
person 2: You HAVE to do (not X) in your build or you are a noob.
player: sigh

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

Danikat.8537:

I don’t know if this works in GW2 but in GW1 I found the simple solution to the problem was to make up a name for my build.

In that game the skills you chose were the main aspect of your build and groups would often ask you to share your skill bar in chat so they could decide whether they thought it looked good or not.

Honestly 9 times out of 10 the people making the call had no real idea what they were doing. If I told them I made the build up myself, I’ve used it in this dungeon/mission/whatever many times before and it works they’d kick me. If I told them I can’t remember what site I got it from but it’s called [whatever I felt like calling it at the time] (‘DOT + Profession name’ was a common form, or AoE + profession name) they’d accept it, no questions asked.

(Or if they were particularly observant I’d have to explain one detail, like I had a fiery bow string to go with Mark of Rodgort or yes, Dervishes do have AoE skills.)

Love it.

This whole “meta build or get out” attitude defeats the point of the game imo. The game doesn’t offer me dozens of possible builds per character just so bad balance or made up community rules can limit me to only 1 or 2 of them. Why even play an RPG then?

Okay I can understand that sometimes people prefer to play with a team where everyone can pull their own weight. That’s fine. I wouldn’t wanna play with a completely unoptimized or nonsensical build myself.

However, there is no reason to go overboard with this especially considering most of the content (open world, dungeons, story, etc) barely asks more of anyone than to know how to dodge or react to the encounter.

And yet it often gets to the point where running a meta build and strategy is the expected default for everyone and everything. It’s the same when everyone relies on cheesing events, exploiting the AI and terrain to skip encounters, or generally skip as much of a dungeon run as possible everytime you play it.
Whether you do that or force people to run meta builds so you don’t have to coordinate a team of individuals, actively develop strategies based on what you have and don’t have to learn more than one easy way to beat the game – it’s all comming down to the same:

You cut out the part of the game which is supposed to be fun and go straight to the mindless grind behind it. Cut out the fun and go to work. When you’re kicking someone because he makes things “more complicated” for you you’re essentially saying “look I don’t enjoy this [game] either but… let’s just get it done”.
At which point, I have to wonder: Why even play? For everyone like that: You’re turning this game into a job. Stop it and get a real one instead.

For everyone who’s already kittened off by now, again: If you’re just behind meta builds it so you can garuantee a group of people who know how things roll from time to time then that’s fine with me.
Just don’t let it get out of hand.

Menadena.7482:

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

The problem is when people like you force their way into raids, for example, when there are already some min \ max players…

Menadena.7482:

I am more than happy to let the min/max people get away from the rest of us and hang out in raids or such. Unfortunately they insist on bringing their gaming culture everywhere, like gaming missionaries forcing their ideas on everyone.

I think the opposite is also true. Players who don’t follow the meta want to enter min-max groups and thus we get threads like this one.

Escadin.9482:

This whole “meta build or get out” attitude defeats the point of the game imo. The game doesn’t offer me dozens of possible builds per character just so bad balance or made up community rules can limit me to only 1 or 2 of them. Why even play an RPG then?

The game offers you loads of options so you can choose which ones work best for any given situation. Lots of the meta builds have a great variety of tools to use depending on the encounter, they are not “use 123 and nothing else” kind of things.

And really when profession A can do Healing much better than profession B is it so unreasonable to ask for A to do the Healing while B covers another aspect? If profession C has amazing CC while profession D has amazing condition damage, then C will be dealing with CC and D with conditions. It doesn’t matter if all of them can do it, the one best at it will cover that role.

It’s called Team building. It’s when you stop thinking only of yourself and start thinking of your team as a whole.

@op You may need to consider the difference between elitism and experience.

Elitism does exist in the raiding community, just as it does in any aspect of the game, but just because there are party/squad requirements doesn’t mean that those requirements are in place because of elitism.

Illconceived Was Na makes a very good point in his previous post. I will illustrate with a brief story. My raid team came into raid highly experienced in GW2 “challenging group content” with Arah/Aether, Fractals, etc. We ignored meta, and came in with the attitude that each was responsible for fulfilling their roles and could choose the best build/gear to do so. After weeks of failing VG we had a long talk and as a group agreed to pony up the cash and outfit the entire team in berzerker/viper gear (as appropriate) and try it that way. The very next run we shaved 30 seconds off our previous best attempt, and we defeated VG shortly after that. The gear builds really are there for a reason, from the experience of those who have learned the content.

Secondly, raiding, more than any other content in GW2 is about teamwork. My raid team is a relaxed group, we train folks that have never run raids and enjoy doing so. But if you were to come in the raid with us wearing even 50 toughness our team will almost certainly fail because of the mechanics of aggro. We would politely ask you to please change your gear, and if you are unwilling then you simply cannot run with our team. No snobbery, no elitism. These are really great, really nice people I have the fortune to work with. But the fact is that your gear will literally, truly, make the raid unable to be completed. That isn’t even talking about roles and the need for some people to chill/cripple for maximum duration while others need to CC break bars, specific Players range while others melee, etc.

So you tell me: should we have you on our team if your unwillingness to adjust means that our team will almost certainly fail?

I suggest finding a guild/team that is willing to train, ask lots of questions not only on what builds they suggest but WHY they suggest those builds. Watch stuff on YT, read posts on forums from folks that raid a lot. Learn from their experience and willingness to share rather than becoming offended at required meta builds.

The main reason for a PvE meta to exist is to put players on the same page in terms of group composition, roles and general strategy.

It’s mostly a case of resource management,
For example, you want several boons to be raid wide covered. A general purpose build might use specific traits or gear to get them for itself and work wonders, but when it comes to group play, it makes no sense for every character to bring self buffing capabilities when that can be handled by “specialized” builds at much less effective cost.
Meta builds and raid comps are designed so group buffing, healing, CC and other utlities which could be needed to deal with specific mechanics, are all handled at minimal DPS cost.

That being said, the most common meta approach is not necessarily the “best” approach. It’s usually designed with quite skilled players in mind and tends to give up loads of defense and safety nets in favor of a DPS potential which is far from needed to beat most of the timers (that’s why Matthias keeps topping those “most difficult boss” threads that appear from time to time).
However, even if plenty of groups could benefit from more fail-safe compositions, the basics of most builds remain pretty much the same. There aren’t really that many options when trying to design an efficient raid build so, when a custom build differs too much from the metabattle ones, it’s PROBABLY going to be suboptimal on its role without bringing too much new to the table.

Q: Since when did MMO endgame content rely on players following the exact guide from sites like metabattle etc?
A: Since always, because as long as a game has variable numbers, there will always be an optimal set. Its called META: Most Efficient Tactic Available

The fact you’re making that presumption means you never played GW1, Diablo, World of Warcraft or any other RPG before?

GW2 has been very lenient in its designs. You don’t need META to play the game and enjoy both the easy and the hard content. Raids however are the peak of this difficulty designed for players to hunt this META and use it. The META will also change with new raid wings and class updates. Maybe with the next expansion we get new Elite Specs, which redefine the META again.

IN SHORT:
The game is very un-meta friendly. Meaning you can play ALMOST all content without being META which is a lot more than most games do. ONLY raids are designed for META-ish builds.