Guild Wars 2

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

They won’t be. Support and CC are independent of gear choice. Dodging is better than tanking.

Fuji.6284:

They’ve nerfed most builds people play, regardless if it’s berserker’s or not.

Which would be the goal EXACTLY.

Healers/Support gets new tools and significant buffs. Power-based damage dealers get slowed down enough that healers might actually be able to contribute.

There is a larger pattern and it’s really not that hard to deduce.

The game is entirely dominated by “Lone Wolves” who can accomplish all major goals without any Support or Control characters. Its one dimensional mono-role gameplay, and they are going to keep chipping away at it until Lone Wolves actually have to look outside themselves for help and become Pack Wolves.

So now that Art of Combat and Critical! have been posted, I’ll ask again..

Should I proceed crafting my ascended gear for my mesmer (pve) or wait out this week?

Verificus.4320:

So now that Art of Combat and Critical! have been posted, I’ll ask again..

Should I proceed crafting my ascended gear for my mesmer (pve) or wait out this week?

If you had the intention to use Berseker, I don’t think there should be any problem. You should probably wait, however, for the runes and sigils (unless you don’t mind trashing them later) and use Ruby Orbs in the meanwhile. This might render the ascended gear inferior to an exotic with good runes (In which case you may perfectly wait for the patch).

I’d still wait and I’d expect anything I craft to be nerfed soon. I didn’t say the nerf would be unwarranted, simply that it will happen.

Nike.2631:

Fuji.6284:

They’ve nerfed most builds people play, regardless if it’s berserker’s or not.

Which would be the goal EXACTLY.

Healers/Support gets new tools and significant buffs. Power-based damage dealers get slowed down enough that healers might actually be able to contribute.

There is a larger pattern and it’s really not that hard to deduce.

The game is entirely dominated by “Lone Wolves” who can accomplish all major goals without any Support or Control characters. Its one dimensional mono-role gameplay, and they are going to keep chipping away at it until Lone Wolves actually have to look outside themselves for help and become Pack Wolves.

You know. Like a trinity. kitten .
Why Anet is slowly sliding back into defined roles? I don’t know.
Being multiple roles was a great idea to start with. Although damage was at the head, players could opt for control/support options depending on what utilities, sigils, runes and weapons chosen.
What is Anet doing pulling away from changing (OR ADDING NEW) utilities and weapons? I see that they are changing (nerfing) runes and sigils!!

There’s just a huge disconnect there and cutting out damage isn’t going to do much to help bring supporters/controllers/healers up. They will be even more alienated….
Hell why would anyone want to just do support or control?

blakdoxa.7520:

You know. Like a trinity. kitten .

Actually no, NOT like trinity. Just not mono-role everything.

Not defined roles, not perfect healers who do nothing else, just a demand for more bases to be covered in any combination we choose.

Being multiple roles was a great idea to start with. Although damage was at the head, players could opt for control/support options depending on what utilities, sigils, runes and weapons chosen.

Yup, and that’ll still be true. But they are clearly working towards a world in which you have to mix in at least some of those things within your basic party of 5.

There’s just a huge disconnect there and cutting out damage isn’t going to do much to help bring supporters/controllers/healers up.

If they lower damage output to the point where all DPS groups can no longer consistently kill the boss before accumulated errors/damage wipes the party, you’ll see an absolute shift towards either self-sustain or party sustain.

The only real question is "can they thread the needle so healers (and by “healers” I mean damage dealers who also heal…) land somewhere between irrelevant (where we are now) and required (where most MMOs put them)?"

Nike.2631:

Which would be the goal EXACTLY.

Healers/Support gets new tools and significant buffs. Power-based damage dealers get slowed down enough that healers might actually be able to contribute.

There is a larger pattern and it’s really not that hard to deduce.

The game is entirely dominated by “Lone Wolves” who can accomplish all major goals without any Support or Control characters. Its one dimensional mono-role gameplay, and they are going to keep chipping away at it until Lone Wolves actually have to look outside themselves for help and become Pack Wolves.

Precisely. My new elementalist build will be able to pull out those numbers:

• geyser healing for about 5,500
• water blast finishers healing for about 2,500
• evasive arcana healing for about 4,300
• regen healing for almost 500/s
• soothing mist healing for about 240/s
• water blast healing for about 800/s

That’s almost 2,500 health per second without any blast finishers.

Those numbers are insane and healers finally found their niche. All because of overwhelming feedback from the community.

Bri.8354:

• Banner of discipline (170 precision and 15% critical damage/170 ferocity)
• Spotter (150 precision)
• Food (100 precision and 10% critical damage/70 ferocity)

You’re assuming that the conversion to ferocity is gonna a simple rewrite of values and not a true conversion, you’re also assuming that everything is gonna be nerfed when they have said only crit dmg from traits is going to see a nerf

what I mean is this:

• Banner of discipline (170 precision and 15% critical damage/170 ferocity)
  in proper conversion not just translation it would be 15×15= 225 ferocity not 170 as you claim.

same for food:

• Food (100 precision and 10% critical damage/70 ferocity)
  in proper conversion not just translation it would be 15×10= 150 ferocity not 70 as you claim.

if you do the proper conversion instead of assigning the same value as precision, you end up with only a 10% nerf from traits just as they said it would be.

@ Nike
They would have to completely overhaul healing (healing power, healing skills, healing traits, regeneration, cooldowns, etc.) in order to properly place them somewhere. Also vitality would have to factor in there as well because healing power and vitality don’t scale together well, period. As it is now, Healing power works best with high toughness and little to no change in vitality.
Right now one could go full zerk with no healing power and minimal change in vitality to get the best out of their healing skill.
Sadly, unless you have around 1k+ healing power it’s best to not invest in it at all and leave out vitality. Otherwise, it’s a waste of stats.

To be honest, I don’t know how they can do it.
Anet dug themselves a whole having to balance between healing power being too strong or weak. Right now, it’s pitiful and not worth unless you go all out for it.

If they were content to reduce crit damage contribution from 30 points in the trait lines by 1/3 you’d better believe they’re willing to apply the same coefficient to food and banners… We’ll see when we get there, but don’t think for a moment it couldn’t happen.

Nike.2631:

If they were content to reduce crit damage contribution from 30 points in the trait lines by 1/3 you’d better believe they’re willing to apply the same coefficient to food and banners… We’ll see when we get there, but don’t think for a moment it couldn’t happen.

true, this conversion has deeper meaning behind it but…
if they were gonna reduce it by more than 10% right now they would not have gone on record and say it’s an overall 10% reduction.

what I’m truly afraid of right now is that this new crit dmg style allows them to adjust the coefficient in secret and most of the population would not really notice.

right now:

crit displays percentage, it is hard to hide a nerf to it, because even if you did a 1% reduction, people would notice instantly.

with ferocity:

they can adjust the coefficient to 18 ferocity = 1% crit damage and since your ferocity value hasn’t changed, unless you were really into numbers you wouldn’t notice.

imagine:

15 coefficient
225 ferocity = 15% crit dmg

a.net guys we need to nerf crit damage further, clever dev says, well just lower the coefficient even further now that it is a stat instead of a percentage we can do that easy (dev laughts evily)

18 coefficient
225 ferocity = 12.5% crit dmg

this is my true fear with ferocity

Latinkuro.9420:

true, this conversion has deeper meaning behind it but…

if they were gonna reduce it by more than 10% right now they would not have gone on record and say it’s an overall 10% reduction.

I’m not going to say that particular statement was a BALDFACED LIE, but lets just say their idea of “the average player” who will suffer only a 10% loss in damage is wholly unrelated to the population of Guildwars 2 . People spec’d for condition damage might be getting off that lightly, but nobody both 80th level and actively geared for power-based damage is going to see losses that small…

Nike.2631:

Latinkuro.9420:

true, this conversion has deeper meaning behind it but…

if they were gonna reduce it by more than 10% right now they would not have gone on record and say it’s an overall 10% reduction.

I’m not going to say that particular statement was a BALDFACED LIE, but lets just say their idea of “the average player” who will suffer only a 10% loss in damage is wholly unrelated to the population of Guildwars 2 . People spec’d for condition damage might be getting off that lightly, but nobody both 80th level and actively geared for power-based damage is going to see losses that small…

if the overall coefficient remains 15 ferocity = 1% crit dmg outside of traits yes it will be an overall 10% loss.

however,

as I demonstrated before they can just as easily adjust the coefficient from say 15 to 18 = 1% crit damage, most would be none the wiser as all they see is oh 225 ferocity

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Anyway, as much as I appreciate the math, I think the OP has messed up somewhere: Anet balances on exotics, and not ascended. So, I’ll do the exotic computation myself:

Armor:
315 Major, 224 Minor
Trinkets:
358 Major, 255 Minor
Weapon:
179 Major, 128 Minor
Jewels:
150 Major, 90 Minor

subtotal: 1003 Major, 698 Minor

120 Major/84 Minor (orbs on armor) + 300 major/minor (stats)

Total: 1423 Major, 1082 Minor.

On a standard toon, this comes to 2339 Power, 1998 Precision or kitten crit chance, and +72% crit damage from ferocity.

So, effective power would be 2339 x (.55 × 2.22 + .45) = 3908.

On old stats, you would get 62% from equipment, with an additional 14% from orbs, and 30% from stats to get a total of 106% crit damage.

So, effective power would be 2339 x (0.55 × 2.56 + 0.45) = 4346.

And, 3908 / 4346 = 0.899, or a 10.1% drop.

So, why does everyone get much bigger numbers? This is ultimately about standards, really. When Anet sought to balance zerker gear (which I argue was fine in the first place), they did so to the letter. They looked only at the gear, and nothing else. No boons, no traits, no sigils, no team composition, and no consumables.

The community, however, looks at more things. Curry Butternut Squash Soup and Banner of Discipline receive heavy nerfs, getting their crit rates cut from 10%/15% to 4.6%11.3% respectively. Likewise, the more precision bonuses one gets (fury, spotter, sigils, other banners), the more severe these changes to crit damage become.

Whether focusing on just the build was the right move is debatable. I can see both sides of the argument, but since I opposed the zerker change in the first place, this is like seeing both sides of which foot gets stomped on.

How they got the 10% number makes sense if they are solely looking at exotic equipment.

The reason I based it around ascended was in the past they stated “We expect that in the most extreme power DPS focused builds this change will account for a maximum reduction of about 10% damage.”

The way they made it sound was that in the worst case players would receive a 10% reduction. Instead we are seeing over double that at the higher levels of critical damage.

Latinkuro.9420:

Bri.8354:

• Banner of discipline (170 precision and 15% critical damage/170 ferocity)
• Spotter (150 precision)
• Food (100 precision and 10% critical damage/70 ferocity)

You’re assuming that the conversion to ferocity is gonna a simple rewrite of values and not a true conversion, you’re also assuming that everything is gonna be nerfed when they have said only crit dmg from traits is going to see a nerf

what I mean is this:

• Banner of discipline (170 precision and 15% critical damage/170 ferocity)
  in proper conversion not just translation it would be 15×15= 225 ferocity not 170 as you claim.

same for food:

• Food (100 precision and 10% critical damage/70 ferocity)
  in proper conversion not just translation it would be 15×10= 150 ferocity not 70 as you claim.

if you do the proper conversion instead of assigning the same value as precision, you end up with only a 10% nerf from traits just as they said it would be.

Except they have stated that conversion rates won’t be equal like that, except in sPvP where they are trying to keep critical damage like it is currently.

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

Bri.8354:

they have stated that conversion rates won’t be equal

in that case the 10% loss is a BLATANT AND DISRESPECTFUL STRAIGHT LIE TO OUR FACES

DeadlySynz.3471:

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

The point isn’t to make them stop playing their damage-mongering builds…

The point is to make them stop kicking anyone who isn’t playing the exact same thing.

Latinkuro.9420:

as I demonstrated before they can just as easily adjust the coefficient from say 15 to 18 = 1% crit damage, most would be none the wiser as all they see is oh 225 ferocity

Yeah… No.

Amongst the 3 million players in this game there are far more than enough people who are both detail oriented and very vocal that nothing like that is going to slip by unnoticed.

Its not a question of “did or did not a mouse fart in the back corner of Caledon Woods?” It’s a question of “If the mouse’s fart changed pitch by one note, how many seconds would elapse before someone is on the forum demanding to know ‘what happened and why isn’t there a patch note?!??’?”

right now: having 1 person not be zerker is a tolerable DPS loss.
with ferocity: 1 person playing clerics or knights will be a major DPS loss.

possible zerker community response ?

more gear checks less toleration towards none zerker builds to compensate for the HUGE DPS loss !

Nike.2631:

DeadlySynz.3471:

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

The point isn’t to make them stop playing their damage-mongering builds…

The point is to make them stop kicking anyone who isn’t playing the exact same thing.

What about those players not-playing-the-exact-same-thing joining groups who actually want them?

DeadlySynz.3471:

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

That’s sort of the situation I’m in for WvW.

I typically run a burst damage signet build on my ranger, using a greatsword and longbow. While not the best build in zergs, it works pretty good at bursting down single targets, especially those pesky thieves who act like they are invincible (lets see them escape 1,500 range 15k damage rapid fires that track onto them even while in stealth).

Its only with this sort of high risk high reward build that I can enjoy WvW with. I despise bunker play and in my opinion, its toxic to the game in general. Because that ~20% cut in damage will be devastating to any berserker build I would run, I’m going to be forced into a bunker build, which will very likely make me quit WvW all together.

draconx.3102:

Let’s consider a mesmer in full berserker gear, with scholar runes, and a typical build with 30 points in dueling. We need to make some assumptions because I don’t see all the necessary information is in the blog post:
…….

……. ( snipped for Brevity)

…….

or the 10% figure is pretty misleading.

Edit: Fixed damage reduction calculations I think.

Me I am glad to see crit damage reduced, whether by 10 % or 20 %. I happen to feel that there are other forms of damage, and no one uses them. Why? because the way things are currently.,..precision and crit damage is King.

There are so many different gears available… and yet it " go zerker or go home."

I am sure that this is not what the devs intended. After all, if it were, there would only be zerker gear, and one type of damage… Crit.

Now while I agree that the devs have a right and an obligation to balance out the differing types of damage, I also think that there are other things they could be doing along with the precision and ferocity changes. Adding mobs that have High armor but a susceptibility to conditions would be One as an example. So having all zerker groups would be a Lot more of a challenge. maybe then + vitality + toughness gear would make sense.

I know all the zerker wearers High crit players are gonna fume. But… MMO’s need balance, and not just between classes… Why wear carrion? Why wear Soldiers?

No, I happen to think in My opinion that the crit damage changes are a good first step..but so far, only a good first step..I’d like to see more done.

Nike.2631:

Fuji.6284:

They’ve nerfed most builds people play, regardless if it’s berserker’s or not.

Which would be the goal EXACTLY.

Healers/Support gets new tools and significant buffs. Power-based damage dealers get slowed down enough that healers might actually be able to contribute.

There is a larger pattern and it’s really not that hard to deduce.

The game is entirely dominated by “Lone Wolves” who can accomplish all major goals without any Support or Control characters. Its one dimensional mono-role gameplay, and they are going to keep chipping away at it until Lone Wolves actually have to look outside themselves for help and become Pack Wolves.

Except this sort of idea isn’t promoting variety. The ideal approach is to bring the game in a state in which it’s equally effective to go solo or with a team.

Give people a chance to shine on their own or in a group. Not everybody likes to be dependent on others and the whole concept of GW2 was that each class can be self-sufficient and not worry about others to be able to do well.

This is a slippery slope that I hope they don’t fully go down.

The change was necessary – both to normalize crit damage across items and also to make the scaling similar to precision.
Slowing down DPS won’t have any real effect on the game IMO. If a fight now lasts 20-30 seconds longer it won’t matter.
AI changes, encounter changes might have mattered – an extra 30 seconds of combat won’t.

Anet nerfed overall zerker damage output by 10%. Each fight now lasts 10% longer. That won’t make the baddies in full cleric’s or whatnot shine. They’ll still be shunned and driven away.

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

This!!! The " Go zerker or go Home" meta build has to go… for the sake of the game.

While I hate nerfs… and would have liked to see other ways to make zerker gear and the crit damage mechanic less effective, this is the most direct way, and according to occam’s razor, may be the best.

No other gear matters, no other builds matter. Conditions? Why bother? crap dies too fast to bleed , poison, or burn anything. And the reason is…. kitten …crit damage kills stuff in a few seconds.

I know many people like knowing they are doing " UBER DAMAGE look at my kitten!!!" Not all, but some… but..Longer fights are BETTER fights. There would be a greater demand for strategy, and tactics. And while I think the whole." Bosses cannot be CC’d" thing has to go… and the " 25 stacks of bleeds…etc." is crap… This is a good first step. Zerker gear should do more damage than other gear,….but if it makes all other gear wearers unwanted In group encounters…then there is NO way you could think this would not be nerfed. I am just amazed it took this long. But hey, better late than never.

haviz.1340:

Nike.2631:

Which would be the goal EXACTLY.

Healers/Support gets new tools and significant buffs. Power-based damage dealers get slowed down enough that healers might actually be able to contribute.

There is a larger pattern and it’s really not that hard to deduce.

The game is entirely dominated by “Lone Wolves” who can accomplish all major goals without any Support or Control characters. Its one dimensional mono-role gameplay, and they are going to keep chipping away at it until Lone Wolves actually have to look outside themselves for help and become Pack Wolves.

Precisely. My new elementalist build will be able to pull out those numbers:

• geyser healing for about 5,500
• water blast finishers healing for about 2,500
• evasive arcana healing for about 4,300
• regen healing for almost 500/s
• soothing mist healing for about 240/s
• water blast healing for about 800/s

That’s almost 2,500 health per second without any blast finishers.

Those numbers are insane and healers finally found their niche. All because of overwhelming feedback from the community.

The majority of the community didn’t want this. It was Anet who made this call – sorry to disappoint you but for each player that’s asking for " meaningful roles " and " give healers a spot " on the forums there are at least 5 others just zerk farming dungeons like they don’t care.
Don’t consider this a community issue – this was a developer choice.

The community is asking for ranger pet changes. Will we get them ? No.
The community is asking for fractal changes ? Did we get them ? Not yet.
The community asked for a lot of things and were ignored – see ascended.

Don’t fool yourselves.

Latinkuro.9420:

right now: having 1 person not be zerker is a tolerable DPS loss.
with ferocity: 1 person playing clerics or knights will be a major DPS loss.

The irony being the cleric/knight player’s contribution didn’t go down at all. Its just the Berserkers being less magnanimous now that their margin of error has shrunk to nothing.

possible zerker community response ?

47 threads complaining . We’ll have to see how many more knocks it can take before it actually just collapses and ’zerks start looking for one support character so they can stay pure damage dealer or they re-gear for greater survival. Either way, the extinction of the all-Zerker party is coming.

Quite many knocks as most of dungeon/fractal encounters have been soloed.

Nerelith.7360:

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

This!!! The " Go zerker or go Home" meta build has to go… for the sake of the game.

While I hate nerfs… and would have liked to see other ways to make zerker gear and the crit damage mechanic less effective, this is the most direct way, and according to occam’s razor, may be the best.

No other gear matters, no other builds matter. Conditions? Why bother? crap dies too fast to bleed , poison, or burn anything. And the reason is…. kitten …crit damage kills stuff in a few seconds.

I know many people like knowing they are doing " UBER DAMAGE look at my kitten!!!" Not all, but some… but..Longer fights are BETTER fights. There would be a greater demand for strategy, and tactics. And while I think the whole." Bosses cannot be CC’d" thing has to go… and the " 25 stacks of bleeds…etc." is crap… This is a good first step. Zerker gear should do more damage than other gear,….but if it makes all other gear wearers unwanted In group encounters…then there is NO way you could think this would not be nerfed. I am just amazed it took this long. But hey, better late than never.

Long fights are NOT better… With mob AI as it is, all you would do is fall asleep trying to eat through 1 million hp. And I think you meant “crap dies too slow” to conditions. The reason is not because of crit damage but because of bad design. Strategy and tactics aren’t really needed because the fights become memorized and actions can be routinely carried through without much change at all.
Other gear sets don’t have damage that can even compare to what can be attained by “zerk” gear. We don’t want to boost the other sets because that promotes player’s power creep. Defensively, toughness/healing power/vitality gear are failures because of dodge and the vigor boon (along with any endurance regen traits/utilities). Total damage avoidance will always trump any sort of damage mitigation.

This meshing of active and passive play is Anet’s bane and has been their balancing nightmare.

Nike.2631:

DeadlySynz.3471:

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

The point isn’t to make them stop playing their damage-mongering builds…

The point is to make them stop kicking anyone who isn’t playing the exact same thing.

This issue here is where people like you are misguided.
People don’t kick non-zerkers right now because of gear – they kick them because they’re not playing the meta.
And they’re not playing the meta because their mentality is not geared towards efficiency.

Even if zerker parties will require a healer in the future – it’ll still be 4 zerkers with 1 anchor guardian ( like the meta way at the start of the game ) and anyone else will still be kicked.

Getting kicked is not about gear – it’s about the fact that if you’re not willing to invest the time and effort to play the most effective build then you’re not a player that’s going to roll with the meta-loving profit revering serious players.

Why would that change?

47 threads complaining . We’ll have to see how many more knocks it can take before it actually just collapses and ’zerks start looking for one support character so they can stay pure damage dealer or they re-gear for greater survival. Either way, the extinction of the all-Zerker party is coming.

Except you’re mistaken.

LFGs will become tighter on requirments because the drop in DPS means you can’t half- kitten your DPS spec and you need to go all the way, and anyone who could survive in the current zerker gear will survive just fine anyway. Speed clear guilds will carry on running full offensive set ups.

Literally all this patch is going to do is make fights take slightly longer, and “healers” and “support” players will be even further ostracised because they’re going to be even more of a liability.

This of course could have all been prevented if “support” players stopped complaining about zerker only LFGs and doing themselves a favour and making their own groups.

But instead, now absolutely everyone with critical damage and/or precision suffers. Celestial suffers the most, assassin’s goes from pretty solid to basically a waste of time and berserker is now pushed as the top choice even more.

What makes me sick about this whole thing is how drawn this community is by spite. They don’t care that it’s not going to make people want their builds, they literally just want berserker gear users nerfed out of spite. It’s wrong, sad, and I really hope ANet don’t scale back on damage when it’s going to change nothing besides make it even harder for glass specs in WvW to take on tanky players.

Harper.4173:

The majority of the community didn’t want this.

Of course not. Because in any MMO population you can rule of thumb that only about 20% enjoy support/healing gamplay, and about 10% enjoy the demands of good tanking (which is far more about positioning and control than it is about survivability)

“Damage Dealers should be god-kings, unencumbered by any requirements other than kill it before it kills you” is ALWAYS going to be the majority opinion.

I happen to enjoy healing/support gameplay the most out of Damage/Healing/Control. For the most part I’m glad that they’ve let Damage dealers scurry about without NEEDING to bring a healer. Waiting to have fun because you MUST ‘Find a healer’ is tedious, even for healers. But actively not wanting one is in my opinion going too far. I think it’s silly that they’re trying to promote healing by making healers stronger rather than making content more threatening, but at least I understand the impulse guiding most of these changes from a designer’s standpoint. An designers’ standpoints generally have to not give a crap about “majority preference” .

DeadlySynz.3471:

People just like to play certain builds. Those that play zerker builds will always play them, you can’t force them into something else. Point being, they kill their build off or alter it in such a way that they don’t like the numbers showing up anymore, they are more likely to quit rather than adjust to a build they don’t like.

Not true. You will always have Min-maxers that do not play a build…. " because I Like it." but because it is the easiest way to put out the most damage. That is what " min-maxer" means.

Yes you will Not affect most Crit build players. You will also not affect most conditions playrs. These people play what they play because they enjoy it.

But…. Like Posting a LINE in Vegas on a zero – sum game… if you can post the right odds so the Min-maxers split down the middle…. then you can have a better game. Suddenly you may not have perfect equity between crit and conditions Just as an example….but if you can make it so hard for the min-maxer to know for sure… which build is Most damaging with least effort… maybe they may…split down the middle…

I play conditions on my necro,…I hate the ax. I play conditions on my mesmer. I am aware that neither is gonna be welcome in a dungeon… I also know i am " Not optimal." so yes, you have a point… Crit players will not change, neither will conditions players…but the Min-maxer might.

Second as to " they will just leave the game." that’s a Load… after all.. everyone that threatens to rage quit over some mechanics change, how many actually mean it? More often than Not." I’m gonna rage quit " is Just an empty threat.

Bri.8354:

The way they made it sound was that in the worst case players would receive a 10% reduction. Instead we are seeing over double that at the higher levels of critical damage.

The examples you gave in the opening post are actually only a 13-16% reduction in overall non-Condition damage. Your mistake is that the percentage loss you’re recording is the reduction in “extra average damage that Critical adds on top of normal damage”. You’re ignoring the base 100% damage you’d get if you had no criticals at all.

These are the numbers you quoted for your ‘typical Berserker’ build:

A typical berserker build with ascended equipment not using consumables or skills like banner of discipline will have around:

• Precision: 2,045 (58% critical chance, 78% with fury)
• Critical damage before ferocity: 113% + 50% base critical damage (163% total)
• With ferocity: 1,129 (75% critical damage + 50% base critical damage, 125% total)

You will see a loss of 38% critical damage, which is a 23% damage loss.

So that’s a 78% chance of Crit doing +163% critical damage (263% of Normal), and a 22% chance of doing 100% of Normal before Ferocity. After Ferocity, it’s a 78% chance of Crit doing +125% critical damage (225% of Normal), and a 22% chance of doing 100% of Normal.

What you did is 100 * (1 – (0.78 * 125) / (0.78 * 163)) = 23.3. That’s where your 23% is coming from. It’s identical to simply comparing the percentage drop from 163 to 125. The problem with doing that is… well, imagine what the drop in overall damage would be if my crits gave me +163% critical damage beforehand, and +0% critical damage after? How much DPS loss is that? By the calculations you’re doing, you’d have it be a 100% drop in DPS. Which is wrong: I’m still doing my base normal damage. Even if you remove all my critical chance, there wouldn’t be a 100% drop in overall damage because I’ve still got my non-crits.

So going back to the ‘typical Berserker’, the values to compare are (1 – 0.78) * 100% + 0.78 * (100% + 163%) = 227.14%, and (1 – 0.78) * 100% + 0.78 * (100% + 125%) = 197.5%. 197.5 is 86.95% of 227.14, so it’s a percentage loss of 13.05% in average damage per attack.

I agree this is still more than 10% (maybe they’re factoring in condition damage over a battle as well?… who knows), but it’s definitely a lot less than the 23-25% figures you arrived at.

Nike.2631:

Latinkuro.9420:

as I demonstrated before they can just as easily adjust the coefficient from say 15 to 18 = 1% crit damage, most would be none the wiser as all they see is oh 225 ferocity

Yeah… No.

Amongst the 3 million players in this game there are far more than enough people who are both detail oriented and very vocal that nothing like that is going to slip by unnoticed.

Its not a question of “did or did not a mouse fart in the back corner of Caledon Woods?” It’s a question of “If the mouse’s fart changed pitch by one note, how many seconds would elapse before someone is on the forum demanding to know ‘what happened and why isn’t there a patch note?!??’?”

I hope that is true about the detail oriented people ratio 3:1

and thanks for the colorful example it was hilarious hahahahahahahaha

Nike.2631:

Harper.4173:

The majority of the community didn’t want this.

Of course not. Because in any MMO population you can rule of thumb that only about 20% enjoy support/healing gamplay, and about 10% enjoy the demands of good tanking (which is far more about positioning and control than it is about survivability)

“Damage Dealers should be god-kings, unencumbered by any requirements other than kill it before it kills you” is ALWAYS going to be the majority opinion.

I happen to enjoy healing/support gameplay the most out of Damage/Healing/Control. For the most part I’m glad that they’ve let Damage dealers scurry about without NEEDING to bring a healer. Waiting to have fun because you MUST ‘Find a healer’ is tedious, even for healers. But actively not wanting one is in my opinion going too far. I think it’s silly that they’re trying to promote healing by making healers stronger rather than making content more threatening, but at least I understand the impulse guiding most of these changes from a designer’s standpoint. An designers; standpoints generally have to not give a crap about “majority preference” .

Each profession still has their own healing skill and can dodge… Heal support isn’t going to add much of anything as long as we have our own way to self-sustain while getting out as much damage as possible.
I like healing, support and tanking but with how this game is built there’s not much in the way for any of those specs being needed.

Harper.4173:

This issue here is where people like you are misguided.
People don’t kick non-zerkers right now because of gear – they kick them because they’re not playing the meta.

And lo, the meta is being forcibly rearranged. I don’t think speed runners are wrong to do what they do in the current environment. I think they just better get used to the idea the Devs are going to keep hammering on that environment until that strategy is no longer sound.

And they’re not playing the meta because their mentality is not geared towards efficiency.

If you think playing a quality healer in most MMOs doesn’t require a keen eye towards efficiency, I have no idea what MMOs you’ve been playing.

Even if zerker parties will require a healer in the future – it’ll still be 4 zerkers with 1 anchor guardian ( like the meta way at the start of the game ) and anyone else will still be kicked.

Really. Really? You think its impossible to create an environment/challenges where that’s not true?

Getting kicked is not about gear – it’s about the fact that if you’re not willing to invest the time and effort to play the most effective build then you’re not a player that’s going to roll with the meta-loving profit revering serious players.

Why would that change?

That’s NOT going to change. What’s going to change (hopefully) is that challenges will incorporate enough elements that no single build can cover all of them effectively – so that group content will demand a certain degree of diversity. Again we see signs – the hologram fight features a segment that favored melee, a segment that favored range, and a segment the absolutely demanded conditions.

blakdoxa.7520:

Nerelith.7360:

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

This!!! The " Go zerker or go Home" meta build has to go… for the sake of the game.

While I hate nerfs… and would have liked to see other ways to make zerker gear and the crit damage mechanic less effective, this is the most direct way, and according to occam’s razor, may be the best.

No other gear matters, no other builds matter. Conditions? Why bother? crap dies too fast to bleed , poison, or burn anything. And the reason is…. kitten …crit damage kills stuff in a few seconds.

I know many people like knowing they are doing " UBER DAMAGE look at my kitten!!!" Not all, but some… but..Longer fights are BETTER fights. There would be a greater demand for strategy, and tactics. And while I think the whole." Bosses cannot be CC’d" thing has to go… and the " 25 stacks of bleeds…etc." is crap… This is a good first step. Zerker gear should do more damage than other gear,….but if it makes all other gear wearers unwanted In group encounters…then there is NO way you could think this would not be nerfed. I am just amazed it took this long. But hey, better late than never.

And I think you meant “crap dies too slow” to conditions.

I said. " Crap dies too fast. to Bleed, poison, or burn anything." the last word is there for a reason. What I mean is…. that why bother bleeding, poisoning, or burning anything when crap dies too fast for that to make a difference?

See here is where your argument falls apart. You say all that will happen is mobs will just take Longer to kill..and it won’t mean a thing. But someone ELSE said." the longer a fight lasts..the more chances of being killed by the mobs" EUREKA…that person gets it.

See maybe you are so uber-awesome..that nothing in gw2 can Kill you, because your hand-eye coordination, and superior thinking + knowledge base of all your skills is such that you are always just jumping out of the way as the One shot kill blow lands…or using the right skill at all times….

but…. Not everyone is equally skilled.

So yes.. a Longer fight…on average, with an average player in a group.. means that you need to stategize a Little more. Would i like to see Mob AI improved? of course..but waiting for Mob AI to be improved as the ONLY solution to a problem that needs fixing now is just… irresponsible.

This addresses the " Zerker is King, Go Zerker or go home" meta most directly. Maybe the numbers will need adjusting.

As to players that " rage quit" over the issue… good riddance. All they do is unbalance the game chasing FoTM builds, whining on the forums when their particular EZ Mode is found and adjusted, Ok.. nerfed. And make the game harder for those seeking vatiety to enjoy.

This is NOT all about the zerker wearer. he or she is not the Most important person in this game. There are many of us out there, that do not wish to ONLY wear zerker’s or get lost. We also payed to play this game.

So don’t let the Perfect be the enemy of the good. Saying " This doesn’t solve the problem." doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be implemented. It’s a good start.

Nike.2631:

And lo, the meta is being forcibly rearranged. I don’t think speed runners are wrong to do what they do in the current environment. I think they just better get used to the idea the Devs are going to keep hammering on that environment until that strategy is no longer sound.

even if they nerf it to the ground the new speed running will simply be
let’s figure out which team comp gives us the best possible clear time now that pure beserker parties have gone the way of the dinosaur. (not that that would ever happen)

blakdoxa.7520:

Each profession still has their own healing skill and can dodge… Heal support isn’t going to add much of anything as long as we have our own way to self-sustain while getting out as much damage as possible.

First off, base values for self heals should probably be lowered slightly (8% sound familiar to anyone?) and then the contribution of Healing Power increased so that splashing things like Zealot’s/Keeper’s start to look more appealing than pure Berserker. I have no problem with truly masterful berserker players standing alone, but I’m ready to see the wannabe go down significantly harder .

I like healing, support and tanking but with how this game is built there’s not much in the way for any of those specs being needed.

Remember ‘Toxin’? Suddenly I had no problem finding pointy-end-of-the-spear players who didn’t mind sticking around my Battle Presence-&-buffs Guardian or perma-Regen banners Warrior when I was out slumming in the Tower. Particularly when my band strolled up and rez’d them off the floor.

They know how to do it. If anything, I think they’re trying to be a little more subtle about it. Again, splitting the different between auto-kicked and required.

Latinkuro.9420:

Nike.2631:

And lo, the meta is being forcibly rearranged. I don’t think speed runners are wrong to do what they do in the current environment. I think they just better get used to the idea the Devs are going to keep hammering on that environment until that strategy is no longer sound.

even if they nerf it to the ground the new speed running will simply be
let’s figure out which team comp gives us the best possible clear time now that pure beserker parties have gone the way of the dinosaur. (not that that would ever happen)

I have no problem with that. Then the challenge is for the developer to balance out the game mechanics in a way that leads closer and closer to where any player might have a Niche In a group…

I would still like to see actual Mob AI changed to make content challenging enough that other forms of play are more viable than just zerg , zerg, zerg. Thsi IS a game mechanics problem, that the devs should Look into. It would make it where even if a group wanted to go full zerker…. they might have to either briong CC or heals build players, or incorporate these skills in their own Builds. I see this as a Gw2 weakness.

But Until that is done, to just " well, let things be as they are, because nerfing zerker builds is not a perfect answer." is just zerker build players crying cause the devs are just weakening their play style.

The fact that weakening zerker playsstyle may make other playstyles viable is not something a Lot of zerker’s care about.

But as I said. This isn’t all about the zerker build player. There are other players out there, that have other ideas, besides " wear zerkers and zerg!!!"

Latinkuro.9420:

Nike.2631:

And lo, the meta is being forcibly rearranged. I don’t think speed runners are wrong to do what they do in the current environment. I think they just better get used to the idea the Devs are going to keep hammering on that environment until that strategy is no longer sound.

even if they nerf it to the ground the new speed running will simply be
let’s figure out which team comp gives us the best possible clear time now that pure beserker parties have gone the way of the dinosaur. (not that that would ever happen)

Again, the goal isn’t to stop party optimization. The goal is to create conditions where the optimum configuration is not five copies of one moving part. To create a situation where people are genuinely IMPRESSED that an all ‘zerker team pulled it off. Because the best players will always be able to manage to leverage configurations of their choosing beyond Dev expectations. But where most parties go, "hmm, it’d be nice if we had a little more control for the second mid-boss, but we’re probably good to go if everyone eats food. Lets roll!"

personally,

if after ferocity, zerker is still the best way to clear a dungeon fast, that’s what I will keep wearing.

if after ferocity, the best way to clear a dungeon becomes (for example) condition damage, no problem I will hop on one of my other characters (i have all classes at 80 and geared for this very reason) and adjust accordingly.

If suddenly necro becomes the best speed clear profession for dungeons, that’s what I will be doing them in.

See, adjust and move on

I really can’t understand this whole thing against the “berserker meta”. Things are far from perfect, that’s for sure, but it’s not like a player can’t start his own party and fill it pretty fast. Berserker is not killing any diversity at all.

Nerelith.7360:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

blakdoxa.7520:

Nerelith.7360:

Zoid.2568:

Who cares if it’s 10% or 20% or 30%. As long as berserker is getting nerfed so other builds are more wanted. Like support, CC builds and tankish builds.

This!!! The " Go zerker or go Home" meta build has to go… for the sake of the game.

While I hate nerfs… and would have liked to see other ways to make zerker gear and the crit damage mechanic less effective, this is the most direct way, and according to occam’s razor, may be the best.

No other gear matters, no other builds matter. Conditions? Why bother? crap dies too fast to bleed , poison, or burn anything. And the reason is…. kitten …crit damage kills stuff in a few seconds.

I know many people like knowing they are doing " UBER DAMAGE look at my kitten!!!" Not all, but some… but..Longer fights are BETTER fights. There would be a greater demand for strategy, and tactics. And while I think the whole." Bosses cannot be CC’d" thing has to go… and the " 25 stacks of bleeds…etc." is crap… This is a good first step. Zerker gear should do more damage than other gear,….but if it makes all other gear wearers unwanted In group encounters…then there is NO way you could think this would not be nerfed. I am just amazed it took this long. But hey, better late than never.

And I think you meant “crap dies too slow” to conditions.

I said. " Crap dies too fast. to Bleed, poison, or burn anything." the last word is there for a reason. What I mean is…. that why bother bleeding, poisoning, or burning anything when crap dies too fast for that to make a difference?

See here is where your argument falls apart. You say all that will happen is mobs will just take Longer to kill..and it won’t mean a thing. But someone ELSE said." the longer a fight lasts..the more chances of being killed by the mobs" EUREKA…that person gets it.

See maybe you are so uber-awesome..that nothing in gw2 can Kill you, because your hand-eye coordination, and superior thinking + knowledge base of all your skills is such that you are always just jumping out of the way as the One shot kill blow lands…or using the right skill at all times….

but…. Not everyone is equally skilled.

So yes.. a Longer fight…on average, with an average player in a group.. means that you need to stategize a Little more. Would i like to see Mob AI improved? of course..but waiting for Mob AI to be improved as the ONLY solution to a problem that needs fixing now is just… irresponsible.

This addresses the " Zerker is King, Go Zerker or go home" meta most directly. Maybe the numbers will need adjusting.

As to players that " rage quit" over the issue… good riddance. All they do is unbalance the game chasing FoTM builds, whining on the forums when their particular EZ Mode is found and adjusted, Ok.. nerfed. And make the game harder for those seeking vatiety to enjoy.

This is NOT all about the zerker wearer. he or she is not the Most important person in this game. There are many of us out there, that do not wish to ONLY wear zerker’s or get lost. We also payed to play this game.

So don’t let the Perfect be the enemy of the good. Saying " This doesn’t solve the problem." doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be implemented. It’s a good start.

So. In addition to making the fights last longer by reducing damage, the margin of error increases. That in turn increases the chances of player deaths and possibly wipes. Not only does that make things even longer, players may very well abandon the fight or instance.

The game doesn’t become harder but more tedious.

Also, I don’t understand whether this is a thing about people being rejected from parties Instead of making their own parties with friends or guildies.
If you’re going to PUG one is expected to adhere to the meta…

There’s “enjoyment” and “fun” found by not playing with people who stick to the meta but now it’s “throw the meta under the bus” because no one (the meta) accepts my spec and playstyle?

You can play your build, your way. You just won’t be able to play it with everyone out there because you’ll run into people who are definitely adverse to your build and playstyle.
So?
Just play with others and go at PvE at your own pace with those that play in a similar way to you.

I’ll say it clear, if you haven’t picked up on it, you don’t have to adhere to the meta.

It’s killing me that this is turning into some personal vendetta against the meta…

Latinkuro.9420:

personally,

if after ferocity, zerker is still the best way to clear a dungeon fast, that’s what I will keep wearing.

if after ferocity, the best way to clear a dungeon becomes (for example) condition damage, no problem I will hop on one of my other characters (i have all classes at 80 and geared for this very reason) and adjust accordingly.

If suddenly necro becomes the best speed clear profession for dungeons, that’s what I will be doing them in.

See, adjust and move on

Missing the point – you’re describing content/changes that have failed. Any time the best solution is “an entire party of me” the content design has failed to encourage diversity. Ideally you want the prefight check list to read more like:

“Ok, we need two people who can dish conditions to bust the shield, a straight direct damage Zerk on the adds because their armor is paper but they hit like trucks so burn them quick, a ranged character who can both hit the boss while the shield is down and still stay by the switch, and some soft heals mostly with the Zerk on those adds but ready to react if anything goes off the rails. Take a minute to double check your traits and consumables, then we rock this.”

blakdoxa.7520:

Also, I don’t understand whether this is a thing about people being rejected from parties Instead of making their own parties with friends or guildies.
If you’re going to PUG one is expected to adhere to the meta…
…
It’s killing me that this is turning into some personal vendetta against the meta…

That’s not even necessary. You can start your own party labeled as “Path X. All welcomed” and it still fills rather fast.
I’ve done it myself a few hours ago for AC P3. Ended with a lvl32 Guardian, a lvl55 Necro, a lvl80 Guardian (fairly new to the game, probably farming his first exotics) and a lvl80 Ranger. Is it going to be as fast as a meta run? Obviously not. Is it viable? Absolutely.

Nike.2631:

Missing the point – you’re describing content/changes that have failed. Any time the best solution is “an entire party of me” the content design has failed to encourage diversity. Ideally you want the prefight check list to read more like:

“Ok, we need two people who can dish conditions to bust the shield, a straight direct damage Zerk on the adds because their armor is paper but they hit like trucks so burn them quick, a ranged character who can both hit the boss while the shield is down and still stay by the switch, and some soft heals mostly with the Zerk on those adds but ready to react if anything goes off the rails. Take a minute to double check your traits and consumables, then we rock this.”

You’re describing a content that I would wholeheartly welcome but which, sadly, is far beyond the capabilities of GW2 playerbase.

So basically a trinity of direct DPS, condition DPS and a healer.

How about you get the hint, realise this game isn’t for you and play something else?