Guild Wars 2

Hello ANet and Tyrian’s,

With all the changes in the levelling system, as well as changes to the strength of foes; As well as there being a lot of lvl80 now, actually using this feature on a regular basis. I think it is time to re-evaluate the scale-down feature, and rebalance it so that it regains it’s original functionality, of making all area’s in the game ‘end-game-content’.

What I would like to know though, and has come up in several other threads that somehow came into contact with the scale-down feature. How should it function?
Should it make lvl80s weaker than the appropriate level of the map, should it make them level appropriate? or should lvl80s be stronger, basically neglecting that player skills have also increased during the level up process, and trivialising the content and as such, in essence not make it end-game content at all…

What should change, if anything? Should skills fade-out or not? Should traits fade out? Or should there just be a steep decrease in base stats…

this OP is formulated as open as I could, I do have some opinions of my own, but keeping this generally formulated I hope that everybody can chip in, without having to fight a strongly opinionated OP

A lv80 in Queensdale should have just as much problems with a Centaur as they do with a Risen in Orr. At least, that’s my personal opinion. The low level zones are already extremely forgiving, with their yellow enemies, and rarely do you ever get into any kind of danger outside of skill points even as an actual newbie.

All end-game content in this game is balanced around Rares, so I see no reason why the low level content shouldn’t also be balanced around Rares too if you are capable of wearing them, especially since the next update will add low-level Exotics. Although some extra compensation is also needed for traits.

Furthermore, PvE needs a significant difficulty boost in general, more in line with the difficulty currently offered by the Southsun Cove and Mordrem mobs (which make the Risen look weak in comparison). Yes, it will make the game more difficult for newer players, but it will also mean that they actually need to group up with allies to accomplish their goals again (this is an MMO afterall).

There is just no excuse for only having four lv80 maps in the game, thus being forced to find end-game content in low-level areas, yet it be so rediculously easy.

As quick fixes, I would:

1) Reduce downscaled level by one (now you downscale to level 26 in level 25 areas)

2) Increase multiplier for stat downscaling (so you would end up with less stats, to balance traits and triple stat from gear).

3) Revert trait decision (give us more trait points, etc while leveling up)

Personally I think it would be a nice compromise to reduce the stats of high level players a bit more (especially on the levels 1 – 10) without locking traits and utilities. I want the content to be challenging, but I do still want access to all the customization options that keeps the combat interesting.
Right now I find myself equipping low-level weapons and attack as little as possible when doing low-level events just to make sure that any low-level participants at least have enough time to tag most of the mobs before I kill them.

Ok, here we go again:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Threads like these pop every now and then. There are generally two types of people replying:

• People like OP who want monsters in low level areas buffed or high-level players nerfed, because otherwise they don’t have challenge and fun.

• People like me who want everything to stay as is because we enjoy character progression and want to kill weak monsters for poor rewards in low-level areas much faster, because otherwise we think it’s boring and not fun.

If I invested in leveling and gearing my character in ascended, I deserve return on investment in form of faster kills and easier dailies. Getting to 100% map completion was rather boring already on my fully geared lvl 80. I don’t want huge HP bags with stupid AI everywhere, doubly so if they drop 1 silver stuff.

If your problem lies in running with underlevel friends, than simply gear yourself with greens of that level or take off some armour. Sorry, but I don’t want to be involved in a global solution to someone’s own personal problem

Lishtenbird.2814:

There’s been a thread on this subject before. There were basically two groups of people:

• those who thought it was boring because it was easy;
• those who thought it would be boring if it wasn’t easy.

You’re in the first group. I’m in the second. You like challenge; I like progression, I like to feel stronger, I like to get lower rewards only for easier tasks.

If they buffed the monsters for 80s, I do not think I would ever finish my map completion.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ok, here we go again:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Threads like these pop every now and then. There are generally two types of people replying:

• People like OP who want monsters in low level areas buffed or high-level players nerfed, because otherwise they don’t have challenge and fun.

• People like me who want everything to stay as is because we enjoy character progression and want to kill weak monsters for poor rewards in low-level areas much faster, because otherwise we think it’s boring and not fun.

If I invested in leveling and gearing my character in ascended, I deserve return on investment in form of faster kills and easier dailies. Getting to 100% map completion was rather boring already on my fully geared lvl 80. I don’t want huge HP bags with stupid AI everywhere, doubly so if they drop 1 silver stuff.

If your problem lies in running with underlevel friends, than simply gear yourself with greens of that level or take off some armour. Sorry, but I don’t want to be involved in a global solution to someone’s own personal problem

Lishtenbird.2814:

There’s been a thread on this subject before. There were basically two groups of people:

• those who thought it was boring because it was easy;
• those who thought it would be boring if it wasn’t easy.

You’re in the first group. I’m in the second. You like challenge; I like progression, I like to feel stronger, I like to get lower rewards only for easier tasks.

If they buffed the monsters for 80s, I do not think I would ever finish my map completion.

Just a small question: After the mega server update, have you been in an event with a lot of high level players, and tried to get credit as a low level player?

Your opinion only takes into account a few situations, such as world completion. Whereas the general idea behind adjusting the down-scaling system is to make the game a better place for everyone to be, not just your lv80.

Hannelore.8153:

A lv80 in Queensdale should have just as much problems with a Centaur as they do with a Risen in Orr. At least, that’s my personal opinion.

So he should be weaker than a low level character ? Because the lowbie at lvl 5 will
much faster kill the lvl 5 centaur than the 80 kills the risen.

Also .. give the 80 level 5 items, reset all traits and don’t use them .. and i suspect he
will also be weaker than the lvl 5 character.

I would suggest that scaling stays the way as it is for lv.1 – 80 but once you’re there you have the option to make the game manually more difficult for yourself:

Veteran Mode

• talk to a zone npc in order to unlock a new mode for yourself (veteran mode)
• to turn veteran mode on, you have to put on the veteran costume
• your level gets scaled down to -1 of the maximal zone level.
• the veteran costume doesn’t affect your looks, but your gear get’s scaled down to white-rarity (which makes the game harder for you).

a lot of things could be unlocked when playing in veteran mode:

• from now on you get a zone token for each successful event completed with a gold-medal
• prestige rewards can be purchased for these tokens.

I guess it would be nice if they found a quick and easy solution to alter the scaling and make the existing PvE content more interesting, but I think it is better for them to find ways to do that by creating new content. For instance, the Toxic Offshoot thingies are kind of along the lines I’m thinking, although those are pretty old now; something related to the Living Story that takes place in the other zones but maybe is more interesting than the offshoots. Something larger-scale.

Beldin.5498:

Hannelore.8153:

A lv80 in Queensdale should have just as much problems with a Centaur as they do with a Risen in Orr. At least, that’s my personal opinion.

So he should be weaker than a low level character ? Because the lowbie at lvl 5 will
much faster kill the lvl 5 centaur than the 80 kills the risen.

Also .. give the 80 level 5 items, reset all traits and don’t use them .. and i suspect he
will also be weaker than the lvl 5 character.

Yes, because the high-level player has far more experience, along with utility skills, elite skills, traits, runes, and sigils, and other advantages. The power curve between low level and high level players is exponential, not linear.

Making them take longer to kill the mob compared to a level 5 is the only way to balance that they can skill for many damage bonuses, defenses, CC, heals, and even use skills that can completely turn the fight once every few minutes.

The only other option would be to take those things away…

Hannelore.8153:

Beldin.5498:

Hannelore.8153:

A lv80 in Queensdale should have just as much problems with a Centaur as they do with a Risen in Orr. At least, that’s my personal opinion.

So he should be weaker than a low level character ? Because the lowbie at lvl 5 will
much faster kill the lvl 5 centaur than the 80 kills the risen.

Also .. give the 80 level 5 items, reset all traits and don’t use them .. and i suspect he
will also be weaker than the lvl 5 character.

Yes, because the high-level player has far more experience, along with utility skills, elite skills, traits, runes, and sigils, and other advantages. The power curve between low level and high level players is exponential, not linear.

Making them take longer to kill the mob compared to a level 5 is the only way to balance that they can skill for many damage bonuses, defenses, CC, heals, and even use skills that can completely turn the fight once every few minutes.

The only other option would be to take those things away…

Why do you want that ? Have actually any lvl 80 stealing your loot when you played
a low level ? Have they stolen your copper node ?

Since thats not really possible .. whats your problem ? Do you personally want to
have more challenge ? Then DON’T go into low level areas.

Do you want to level with a low level friend ? No problem .. equip a white lvl 5 weapon and see how your friend kills faster than you.

Really .. tell me why you are here on a crusade to nerf other people to feel that they
only have gotten worse with every level and better gear and traits.

Beldin.5498:

Hannelore.8153:

Beldin.5498:

Hannelore.8153:

A lv80 in Queensdale should have just as much problems with a Centaur as they do with a Risen in Orr. At least, that’s my personal opinion.

So he should be weaker than a low level character ? Because the lowbie at lvl 5 will
much faster kill the lvl 5 centaur than the 80 kills the risen.

Also .. give the 80 level 5 items, reset all traits and don’t use them .. and i suspect he
will also be weaker than the lvl 5 character.

Yes, because the high-level player has far more experience, along with utility skills, elite skills, traits, runes, and sigils, and other advantages. The power curve between low level and high level players is exponential, not linear.

Making them take longer to kill the mob compared to a level 5 is the only way to balance that they can skill for many damage bonuses, defenses, CC, heals, and even use skills that can completely turn the fight once every few minutes.

The only other option would be to take those things away…

Why do you want that ? Have actually any lvl 80 stealing your loot when you played
a low level ? Have they stolen your copper node ?

Since thats not really possible .. whats your problem ? Do you personally want to
have more challenge ? Then DON’T go into low level areas.

Do you want to level with a low level friend ? No problem .. equip a white lvl 5 weapon and see how your friend kills faster than you.

Really .. tell me why you are here on a crusade to nerf other people to feel that they
only have gotten worse with every level and better gear and traits.

You really should stop being so defensive.

As for the main topic, I once made one of my own in the past, primarily because I enjoyed leveling up characters in areas that were a few levels higher. It would be to a point that my character’s blows would glance sometimes and my conditions didn’t last as long coupled with the fact you could only get hit a few times and if you go down, you were dead.

I made the topic with under the premise that, once you get to level 80, there’s really no option available to get that. And no, equipping white gear doesn’t make your conditions wear off the mobs faster or force some of your attacks to glance. So my idea was to make it so you can chose when you wanted to gain experience and level up or the option to turn experience gain off for some other bonus gain.

That was in the past however, now I’m more focused on the feel one gains from such circumstances: there were areas that felt very dangerous because of how many foes were about and in close proximity. You had to be very careful or be overwhelmed. After you get to 80, that level of danger is really hard to capture unless you just have an unfamiliar build.

So my suggestion for this topic:
-Make the difficulty fluctuate for down-leveled players (i.e. there will be areas that have enemies that are easy…but then there will be enemy lairs where events occur where the difficulty swings higher)
-This wouldn’t affect players that are lower than the max level.

How it would look is, for simplicity, in Kessex Hills:
-Most of the open areas, downleveled players will experience the same difficulty as they do now. A lot of the simpler hearts leave you around +2 to the area.
-The town where the Krait have began to overrun the area, the foes will be tougher because the leveling will put you on level (or +0).
-Go underwater where the Krait are coming from and you’ll be looking at being scaled back to -2.
-That same area but during an event, you’ll remain at -2 scale but your conditions will be cut by 33% the duration and 50% of your non-crit attacks will glance.

If I were dreaming, I would even try to tie this dynamic scaling to events in the area, possibly gaining buffs to overcome some of the disadvantages in place to do more damage or survive better if the enemy forces are losing ground.

Beldin.5498:

Do you want to level with a low level friend ? No problem .. equip a white lvl 5 weapon and see how your friend kills faster than you.

Really .. tell me why you are here on a crusade to nerf other people to feel that they
only have gotten worse with every level and better gear and traits.

Calm down, we made suggestions that you won’t get nerfed. It’s just that people want all 100% of the content to be relevant for them, not only 15% of the zones we have. Backscaling was made with that in mind. Why else would they have created that system? Currently you one/two hit most of the enemies when scaled back as a lv.80 with exotic/ascended gear.

So why not let people optionally have a bigger challenge by scaling back a bit more to play in the same range as a leveling player?

You rightfully ask why people don’t just put on some white gear. Fair question.

• First of all, they would have a greater risk but without greater reward. It wouldn’t feel fair. You want something good out of a mob which took you 15min to kill.
• Their builds won’t work either (builds that work with a certain amount of crit-value to generate specific effects).

about my suggestion “Veteran Mode” above, there’s one problem: it would feel as an requirement for people to play in that mode in order to unlock the new rewards for the zone-tokens.

There could be a solution to this though:

• a successful completed (gold-medal) event gives you 0-2 token
• the same in veteran mode (your level decreased by 1-2) gives you 2-3 token

This way even casual players who don’t want the bigger challenge or hate being nerved can earn the tokens via events.

(won’t work in dungeons of course since then you’ve got back the magicfind-gear dilemma, crippling your group)

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

You rightfully ask why people don’t just put on some white gear. Fair question.

• First of all, they would have a greater risk but without greater reward. It wouldn’t feel fair. You want something good out of a mob which took you 15min to kill.
• Their builds won’t work either (builds that work with a certain amount of crit-value to generate specific effects).

But thats what people ask for with the harder downscaling .. more risk for nearly no rewards.

If i’m in low level zones, i’m mostly there to harvest and mobs are mostly just annoying
and i would mainly even prefer them to be grey / non-aggro like in other MMOs.

If you want harder fights .. go Southsun and have fun with the Karkas. They can
also drop powerful blood. Who really wants to fight 5 minutes against a lvl 2 skelk to
get a claw thats worth 15 copper ?

The baseline for scaling is the same as it always was. A level 80 character in masterwork gear should have same the difficulty when scaled down as when they were genuinely at that level in the corresponding gear. You don’t don’t want level 80s going off to fight Zaitan in masterwork but needing rares for tough mobs in Queensdale.

Rather than a forced change to the down-levelling, I’d personally like to see two sets of megaserver instances for each map (with exception of cursed shored, southsun, dry top and any other level 80 zone added in the future).

Normal Mode, Where the down-levelling works as it currently does but drops are made increasingly more level specific.

Hard Mode, where all that’s changed is that enemies are up-levelled to 80 and drop max level loot. Enemy distribution quantities and respawn rates would remain the same, they’d just be raised to 80. Players are not downscaled on this version of the map. Some parts of the game might turn out to be unbalanced by just up-levelling the mobs, but it could be ironed out over time.

These would be combined with a down-levelling preference option where you can manually chose to downscale further than default. e.g. “+1 (default), =, -1, -2 … -10”. This could perhaps also allow you to downscale yourself below 80 on max level maps.

Kaz.5430:

Rather than a forced change to the down-levelling, I’d personally like to see two sets of megaserver instances for each map (with exception of cursed shored, southsun, dry top and any other level 80 zone added in the future).

Normal Mode, Where the down-levelling works as it currently does but drops are made increasingly more level specific.

Hard Mode, where all that’s changed is that enemies are up-levelled to 80 and drop max level loot. Enemy distribution quantities and respawn rates would remain the same, they’d just be raised to 80. Players are not downscaled on this version of the map. Some parts of the game might turn out to be unbalanced by just up-levelling the mobs, but it could be ironed out over time.

These would be combined with a down-levelling preference option where you can manually chose to downscale further than default. e.g. “+1 (default), =, -1, -2 … -10”. This could perhaps also allow you to downscale yourself below 80 on max level maps.

I remember someone making this suggestion before and I thought it was a neat idea, especially since it was sited as a similar feature to what the original Guild Wars had.

I think a valid counter made against it though was, it would divide the players between max level players and not, which wasn’t a problem in the original GW for some reason.

Kaz.5430:

Rather than a forced change to the down-levelling, I’d personally like to see two sets of megaserver instances for each map (with exception of cursed shored, southsun, dry top and any other level 80 zone added in the future).

Normal Mode, Where the down-levelling works as it currently does but drops are made increasingly more level specific.

Hard Mode, where all that’s changed is that enemies are up-levelled to 80 and drop max level loot. Enemy distribution quantities and respawn rates would remain the same, they’d just be raised to 80. Players are not downscaled on this version of the map. Some parts of the game might turn out to be unbalanced by just up-levelling the mobs, but it could be ironed out over time.

These would be combined with a down-levelling preference option where you can manually chose to downscale further than default. e.g. “+1 (default), =, -1, -2 … -10”. This could perhaps also allow you to downscale yourself below 80 on max level maps.

While this is a very good idea that could also help separate farming zergs from the experience of low level players, at the same time it does not do much for the player who wants to play with his guild mates or friends in a low level zone.

At the very least, a self-handicap is absolutely needed. I see no reason why we should not be able to “nerf” ourselves without ruining our entire build.

Not sure if it can be coded properly, but I feel thatrunes and sigils should be of the same quality, as would be available for a character at max level for zone.

If you are level 80 in a level 15 zone, while you would gain all 6 effects of having superior runes, it should only be as effective as the minor runes that other players would have at level 15. Same for sigils.

Traits I would leave alone, as they are well earned now. And since this might make the level 80 character more effective than level 15 players, add to that that they dodge better, and have some idea of synergy boosting builds… their health should be lower… armor should also not Block as Much damage as a level 15 set of armor.

I feel that a level 80 in Queensdale should be as afraid of 4 Tamini, as he is of 4 Risen.

At some of the people that feel this suggestion is a bad one, and assuming they come back to read the rest of the discussion, let me formulate why I think the system needs a balance pass:

1. The system was put in place so that the whole world would be a viable place to play the game. The whole game was supposed to be ‘end game’. While I am still somewhat in doubt if a lvl80 should feel more powerful; I think we can all agree that lvl80 are currently to strong!

The system was likely balanced around masterwork or rares, but in the meantime we got exotics and ascended gear added. The system saw no revision when the DPS meta developed. The system saw no revision when foes were made easier to compensate the changes to the stats, trait & levelling system. The system saw no revision to compensate for more people learning how the game works, and as such become better players.

2. Multiple people have expressed that high level players can ruin the experience for lower level players (and have experienced this first hand). They are simply to strong, resulting in low level players unable to ‘tag’ foes in order to receive loot. While I can solve that by equipping some masterwork gear, I can not make others equip masterwork gear…

While I like to come to a solution that favour both those that feel the need their progression has to mean something, I personally think that save guarding low level players against these kinds of experiences is much more important. Personally I would like the whole game to be and feel like end-game. For my own enjoyment, but also because then I can bring up that argument ‘again’ (like it was done at the start of this game) in the countless threads asking for more ‘end-game’ content. Which to me points out that this system was meant to function this way (not sure if there are Dev quotes to be found to state this, but I do know it ‘was’ the argument used in most ‘where is end-game content’ at the start of the game!)

Leo G.4501:

I think a valid counter made against it though was, it would divide the players between max level players and not, which wasn’t a problem in the original GW for some reason.

While I agree with this counter argument to an extent, if normal mode reverted back to drops appropriate for the zone (rather than player), people would play normal mode to also farm lower level items to salvage. I also think that megaservers will remove a portion of the downside, this idea would have been bad with the old system though.

Hannelore.8153:

At the very least, a self-handicap is absolutely needed. I see no reason why we should not be able to “nerf” ourselves without ruining our entire build.

I suggested something along those lines in the last paragraph.

I think it’s good for the game to have noticeable character progression. Right now, a higher-level player has an easier time against low level mobs and I think that’s okay, since the rewards are only a little over half what you’d get from fighting level 80s. If everything is exactly the same level then the game ceases to be an RPG, and higher level zones lose their sense of danger.

People also bring up the issue of L80s stealing loot from low level players, but this almost never happens due to event upscaling and how little damage it takes to tag a mob.

I think to satisfy everyone, there ought to be difficulties that you can toggle on by visiting an NPC in Lion’s Arch.

Normal: Your level is capped at zone+1 (how it currently is).

Veteran: Capped at the zone’s level. Unlocked at level 15 (around when you have access to masterwork gear). Gain +22% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 2 or greater, regardless of their level.

Elite: Capped at zone-1. Unlocked at level 30 (around when you have access to rare gear). Gain +69% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 3 or greater, regardless of their level.

Champion: Capped at zone-2. Unlocked at level 60 (around when you have access to exotic gear). Gain +156% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 4 or greater, regardless of their level.

Legendary: Capped at zone-3. Unlocked at level 75 (roughly once you’re into the end-game zones). Gain +306% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 5 or greater, regardless of their level.

Bonuses don’t apply to karma since you would be mingling with other people in the same zone who aren’t necessarily playing higher difficulties, and would otherwise boost your karma gain.

Toggling a difficulty would give you a portrait border when highlighted by other players (the same portraits that enemies of the same difficulty label have). As well, a difficulty can be selected and agreed-upon by the entire party when entering a dungeon.

Hannelore.8153:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ok, here we go again:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Threads like these pop every now and then. There are generally two types of people replying:

• People like OP who want monsters in low level areas buffed or high-level players nerfed, because otherwise they don’t have challenge and fun.

• People like me who want everything to stay as is because we enjoy character progression and want to kill weak monsters for poor rewards in low-level areas much faster, because otherwise we think it’s boring and not fun.

If I invested in leveling and gearing my character in ascended, I deserve return on investment in form of faster kills and easier dailies. Getting to 100% map completion was rather boring already on my fully geared lvl 80. I don’t want huge HP bags with stupid AI everywhere, doubly so if they drop 1 silver stuff.

If your problem lies in running with underlevel friends, than simply gear yourself with greens of that level or take off some armour. Sorry, but I don’t want to be involved in a global solution to someone’s own personal problem

Lishtenbird.2814:

There’s been a thread on this subject before. There were basically two groups of people:

• those who thought it was boring because it was easy;
• those who thought it would be boring if it wasn’t easy.

You’re in the first group. I’m in the second. You like challenge; I like progression, I like to feel stronger, I like to get lower rewards only for easier tasks.

If they buffed the monsters for 80s, I do not think I would ever finish my map completion.

Just a small question: After the mega server update, have you been in an event with a lot of high level players, and tried to get credit as a low level player?

Your opinion only takes into account a few situations, such as world completion. Whereas the general idea behind adjusting the down-scaling system is to make the game a better place for everyone to be, not just your lv80.

Prime examples being the Savanir Shaman event or The Reactor Fire Elemental that dies in a matter of seconds and if not an 80, no chance at loot.

Or The one in Harathi Highlands that due to sheer DPS output from zerk 80’s even when downscaled makes lower ( level appropriate people) get basically nada due to the way they judge loot .

Tulki.1458:

I think it’s good for the game to have noticeable character progression. Right now, a higher-level player has an easier time against low level mobs and I think that’s okay, since the rewards are only a little over half what you’d get from fighting level 80s. If everything is exactly the same level then the game ceases to be an RPG, and higher level zones lose their sense of danger.

Not true since the entire world suddenly becomes the equivalent of Orr, for a level 80, the entire world gains a sense of danger. This is what the developers intended, then seemed to shy away from the idea.

People also bring up the issue of L80s stealing loot from low level players, but this almost never happens due to event upscaling and how little damage it takes to tag a mob.

Unless a low level player never gets to tag the mob, because the mob is killed too fast by the plethora of level 80’s.

I think to satisfy everyone, there ought to be difficulties that you can toggle on by visiting an NPC in Lion’s Arch.

Or all level 80’s can be downscaled so they are effectively the same level as the maximum level of the area… lower health, lower armor… runes and sigils adjusted for the level.

Normal: Your level is capped at zone+1 (how it currently is).

I would preferr the character, normal to be at zone…except with less health and armor than those around you, why less? You already fight more effectively, you have 6 runes that all grant you bonuses , unlike minor runes that can only be stacked as 3 sets of 2 for level 15’s, you also know how to dodge better….= 100 % damage mitigation. You should suffer more when you make a mistake, since you are a veteran, and the people around you aren’t.

Veteran: Capped at the zone’s level. Unlocked at level 15 (around when you have access to masterwork gear). Gain +22% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 2 or greater, regardless of their level.

Elite: Capped at zone-1. Unlocked at level 30 (around when you have access to rare gear). Gain +69% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 3 or greater, regardless of their level.

Champion: Capped at zone-2. Unlocked at level 60 (around when you have access to exotic gear). Gain +156% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 4 or greater, regardless of their level.

Legendary: Capped at zone-3. Unlocked at level 75 (roughly once you’re into the end-game zones). Gain +306% to adventure stats (mob experience, coin, magic find) while downscaled. All crafting materials dropped by killed foes are tier 5 or greater, regardless of their level.

Bonuses don’t apply to karma since you would be mingling with other people in the same zone who aren’t necessarily playing higher difficulties, and would otherwise boost your karma gain.

Toggling a difficulty would give you a portrait border when highlighted by other players (the same portraits that enemies of the same difficulty label have). As well, a difficulty can be selected and agreed-upon by the entire party when entering a dungeon.

The whole toggle thing would not work for me since the whole issue is that there are level 80’s that are souring the experience for new players, … what if they choose to NOT go to the toggle dude, and downscale ?? It should be out of everyone’s hands, and level 80’s in a level 15 zone should be at a disadvantage, since they have 6 runes, and traits , and Know How to select skills that synergize better, and Know how to dodge, boss tactics, tell tales..etc.

Hannelore.8153:

Just a small question: After the mega server update, have you been in an event with a lot of high level players, and tried to get credit as a low level player?

Your opinion only takes into account a few situations, such as world completion. Whereas the general idea behind adjusting the down-scaling system is to make the game a better place for everyone to be, not just your lv80.

The problem is with megaservers and world bosses, not with downscaling. Prior to megaservers, doing world bosses on my lvl 80 was my favourite pastime; you had different amounts of random level players and more often than not it was fun and challenging – especially 5-manning Golem or Svanir. After megaservers, I rarely do these bosses as they’re a boring laggish zerg, regardless of my level.

I do not mean that the problem doesn’t exist; what I mean is that the problem is with world bosses and crediting, not with downscaling the whole game to the lowest (uncommon) denominator. Chopping a leg off when your nail got fungal infection is outright wrong.

Plus, they’re called “world bosses” and not “level 10 map bosses” for a reason; it takes people from all over Tyria to beat them. Leveling to 80 takes 2 weeks of casual play, and everything under 80 is just a set up learning phase and should not be balanced around it. Asking to kill the game for 95% of players for a benefit to 5% of entitled players who gonna merge with the 95% in 2 weeks anyway is wrong. You have a whole map (and multiples of them per level bracket) apart from world bosses (which spawn on timers) to play in – just go and play there.

Kohlteth.3715:

Prime examples being the Savanir Shaman event or The Reactor Fire Elemental that dies in a matter of seconds and if not an 80, no chance at loot.

Or The one in Harathi Highlands that due to sheer DPS output from zerk 80’s even when downscaled makes lower ( level appropriate people) get basically nada due to the way they judge loot .

Did Fire Elemental yesterday on a lvl 10 warrior in random underlevel gear – got both chests just fine. Again, not saying that the problem doesn’t exist, though.

I would like it balanced so that going to a level 40 area is about as hard as the Cursed Shore for a level 80 character in exotics. My reasons are a bit roundabout…

1. I’d like more variety for level 80s
2. I’d only go places that reward me reasonably well
3. So if I’m to go to Lornar’s Pass, it has to pay as well as Orr
4. And if it pays like Orr it has to be difficult like Orr, with appropriate downscaling

It seems odd that one would make an MMO where most of the content isn’t of interest to people at the level cap. You’re spending all that time and money developing areas that will be visited once, or not at all. I can’t see why Anet did this, unless (a) they screwed up or (b) they’d like people to quit their game after making 80 (one-off price, one-off content).

If it were me, and I intended to retain players, there’d be a few tutorial areas and everything from Harathi Hinterlands onward would be level 80. GW1 Factions and Nightfall (and Eye of the North) worked like that. You could start a character on Sunday morning, have max armour by the evening, and check with enthusiasm to see where the Zaishen Mission was that day. Players even made Prophecies unofficially work like that, if you paid for a run from Ascalon to Droknar’s Forge then paid a leveller outside Drok’s.

Daily GW1 Zaishen Missions/Bounties/Vanquishes with worthwhile hard mode rewards had people visiting content they’d normally ignore. The rewards made them go back, and the hard mode (effectively downscaling) made the rewards appropriate.

So.. I want downscaling that’s tough enough to justify full rewards in mid-level areas, and I want full rewards because why else would I go to them?

Stooperdale.3560:

The baseline for scaling is the same as it always was. A level 80 character in masterwork gear should have same the difficulty when scaled down as when they were genuinely at that level in the corresponding gear. You don’t don’t want level 80s going off to fight Zaitan in masterwork but needing rares for tough mobs in Queensdale.

How it can be same when it was recently changed?

Kohlteth.3715:

Hannelore.8153:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ok, here we go again:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Threads like these pop every now and then. There are generally two types of people replying:

• People like OP who want monsters in low level areas buffed or high-level players nerfed, because otherwise they don’t have challenge and fun.

• People like me who want everything to stay as is because we enjoy character progression and want to kill weak monsters for poor rewards in low-level areas much faster, because otherwise we think it’s boring and not fun.

If I invested in leveling and gearing my character in ascended, I deserve return on investment in form of faster kills and easier dailies. Getting to 100% map completion was rather boring already on my fully geared lvl 80. I don’t want huge HP bags with stupid AI everywhere, doubly so if they drop 1 silver stuff.

If your problem lies in running with underlevel friends, than simply gear yourself with greens of that level or take off some armour. Sorry, but I don’t want to be involved in a global solution to someone’s own personal problem

Lishtenbird.2814:

There’s been a thread on this subject before. There were basically two groups of people:

• those who thought it was boring because it was easy;
• those who thought it would be boring if it wasn’t easy.

You’re in the first group. I’m in the second. You like challenge; I like progression, I like to feel stronger, I like to get lower rewards only for easier tasks.

If they buffed the monsters for 80s, I do not think I would ever finish my map completion.

Just a small question: After the mega server update, have you been in an event with a lot of high level players, and tried to get credit as a low level player?

Your opinion only takes into account a few situations, such as world completion. Whereas the general idea behind adjusting the down-scaling system is to make the game a better place for everyone to be, not just your lv80.

Prime examples being the Savanir Shaman event or The Reactor Fire Elemental that dies in a matter of seconds and if not an 80, no chance at loot.

Or The one in Harathi Highlands that due to sheer DPS output from zerk 80’s even when downscaled makes lower ( level appropriate people) get basically nada due to the way they judge loot .

Totally wrong .. the DPS has nothing to do with getting the body loot of champs, its
just who hits them first.
Ignore the Portals at the Svanir Shaman for example and alredy start to fire on him
when he is still invulnerable .. and you will mostly get his body loot.

And yes .. i did that with a level 15 elementalist after the megaserver and got loot.

Also as a player who is leveling you maybe run once into these events .. if ever, and
there is no really need to nerf everything because of false assumptions in something
thats in the end takes maybe 20 minutes of your leveling phase.

This kind of heavy rebalance would be more than welcome. The population density on higher level zones removed any semblance of challenge and fun from the events. For those of us, who simply don’t care about the loot (because it’s silly to care about it), the lower level zones would be a perfect escape, if we got weak enough to not juggernaught through them.

+1 OP

I made a post a long time ago that went something like…

“Issue:
Currently if you enter a level 15-25 area, for example, you are downscaled to a level 23 which is nearly the highest “recommended” level for that area. With a level 80 character with level 80 gear you still dominate the area, and it is not near challenging due to how much experience you have playing the game. My perspective: I have a friend who just started playing, and I would like to play with them. I consider myself pretty skilled, but when I’m downscaled I’m still to powerful to help. I often find myself standing and not attacking, so they can learn the game. I want him to learn, him to play, AND me.
Suggestion:
I suggest if you enter a level 15-25 area, for example, you should be downscaled to a level 15, the lowest “recommended” level for the area. This makes the entire area much more challenging. Which, frankly, it should be. If you’ve played the entire game and have appropriate armor, understand combat, dodging, etc. you should have a good deal of experience. Also, with appropriate armor and weapons it should better balance itself.”

Arghore.8340:

1. The system was put in place so that the whole world would be a viable place to play the game. The whole game was supposed to be ‘end game’. While I am still somewhat in doubt if a lvl80 should feel more powerful;
(…)
Personally I would like the whole game to be and feel like end-game. For my own enjoyment, but also because then I can bring up that argument ‘again’ (like it was done at the start of this game) in the countless threads asking for more ‘end-game’ content.

First: I do not think that any system can rebalance an experienced, full ascended Level 80 and an newbie level 1, so that both have the same challange/difficultiy in level 1 zones. Even between different 80s players the 80-zones/content feels different in ist difficulty.

Second: Yes, the whole game is supposed to be endgame. To my understanding, that means when you start a new level 1 toon then you are already in “the endgame” and you do not have to wait until your reach level 80.

There was a time, frome time to time, when I wanted that i.e. Queensdale is a challenge again, and so I startet a new toon. That solved the problem for me.

And there is a time when a friend and I just want a relaxed run and get some mats or run for map completition through maps and then it is not bad, that an 80 can just ignore the mobs in the lower than 80 areas.

So I think an easier solution could be, that the mobs in low level areas could be “neutral” to level 80s and do not give loot. Of course, this is not perfect and there will be people that want to loot the mobs there.

So, I think the downscaling issue, to my understanding, is not an easy to solve issue and the developer ressources should be directed somewhere else.

Of course, if there are complaints from a lot of new players in China, I am sure that this issue will be fixed fast.^^

Greetings.

Asmodeus.5782:

This kind of heavy rebalance would be more than welcome. The population density on higher level zones removed any semblance of challenge and fun from the events. For those of us, who simply don’t care about the loot (because it’s silly to care about it), the lower level zones would be a perfect escape, if we got weak enough to not juggernaught through them.

So, if the population density in higher level zones could be reduced, than there would be no need to “escape” to lower level zones? Maybe you should ask for that.

Greetings.

I asked for this. Repeatedly. Non stop. Since April. Check my post history. A third of these have been deleted for being rude, however. I got three suspensions just for opposing Megaserver (well, two, but the third happened because of the points accumulated from the previous two and I was still feeling angry at the Megaserver ;p).

There was another discussion about this, but it appears that thread has moved on to page 3 or 4. I’m posting a clarified version of my suggestion here…

I was generally fine with the downscaling as it exists; it worked well in most situations, and probably would have worked fine with most of April’s changes. However, the Trait changes now have an older L80 (or even most 60+) be far more powerful than normal in lower level zones, due to having more traits to work with.

My suggestion is to tweak how downscaling affects trait and skill access, leaving the rest of the system alone:

Below L60 disables GM Traits.
Below L30 disables Elite skill.
Below L20 (starter zones) disables all remaining Traits.
Trait point allocation for the stats is unaffected, and may be re-assigned as needed.

The idea here is not to completely match a newer player (an 80 in Exotic or better will still do better), but instead to narrow the gap between the two in a given zone. In turn, this would (hopefully) allow the devs to re-balance each zone with an eye toward that general gap (perhaps to the point of removing Defiant use in early zones), and also be challenging to more of us. It also uses existing mechanics that (I hope) are easily applied.

Sungak Alkandenes.1369:

Below L60 disables GM Traits.
Below L30 disables Elite skill.
Below L20 (starter zones) disables all remaining Traits.
Trait point allocation for the stats is unaffected, and may be re-assigned as needed.

This would ruin whole builds people have worked for a while just to play the playstyle they want. Almost all builds are trait dependant.

Why not just scaling the level of the player instead? I want to create clones when dodging, but I wouldn’t one-shot every mob when my level is 1 below that mob.

Zok.4956:

So I think an easier solution could be, that the mobs in low level areas could be “neutral” to level 80s and do not give loot. Of course, this is not perfect and there will be people that want to loot the mobs there.

So, I think the downscaling issue, to my understanding, is not an easy to solve issue and the developer ressources should be directed somewhere else.

Of course, if there are complaints from a lot of new players in China, I am sure that this issue will be fixed fast.^^

Greetings.

I also see the need to have areas where less-skilled players can practice and where people who want to relax and gather materials can proceed without full concentration. That’s why I revised my old suggestion to the one I posted earlier:

-The zones are already divided into sections. So make those sections have fluctuating difficulty OR further divide those sections so parts of them are more dangerous.
—Think of zones where you have enemy faction occupation or take-over of an area. Those would be the spots you need to be careful at because there would be rebalancing to also challenge high level/skilled players.
—Characters not above the max level of that area just have to make do with what they have, no rebalancing required.

-This altered difficulty would be more prevalent the more dangerous and enemy dense the areas are. So you might not find very many danger-zones in Queensdale but it’s sometimes necessary to cross danger-zones to get to certain places like Fireheart Rise.

The idea is sort of a compromise that will give those hardcore players the desire to head to the non-80 zones while also leaving space for those that don’t always want to need to give 100%. It also makes logical and canonical sense. There could even be map-wide influence that alters this difficulty depending on the state of some events (if the devs want to get fancy with their living-world).

PS: starting to wonder if another thread is in order.

I think this thread was meant to be aimed at discussion on “How would it function?” with a probably tangent on “Where it would function?”. But a lot of what’s being discussed is “Should it be changed?”.

Lishtenbird.2814:

The problem is with megaservers and world bosses, not with downscaling.

Exactly this imo.

The solution is not nerfing the downscaling system but adding an option to let people to switch to less crowded maps (not to mention this would solve a lot of late big issues about lag spikes and freezes).

Geralt.7519:

Lishtenbird.2814:

The problem is with megaservers and world bosses, not with downscaling.

Exactly this imo.

The solution is not nerfing the downscaling system but adding an option to let people to switch to less crowded maps (not to mention this would solve a lot of late big issues about lag spikes and freezes).

I disagree, the problem appears in small groups as well. High level players trivialize events for leveling players.

Furthermore, without megaservers you couldn’t even complete group events in most zones.

Almost all non-raid non-krait witch group events are soloable. The hardest one so far was recapturing the hylek city in Sparkfly Fen – at the time, it took longer to do this alone capping circles while other circles were being capped back than it did to solo the old version of Tequatl. All of the original world bosses except the shatterer and dwayna were soloable. Off topic though.

The idea of scaling both mob level and loot rarity up is interesting but has an issue – namely that nearly everyone already gets t5 materials by default regardless of mob. Mid-level zones where mobs may drop t4, in particular linen, would still be used by a lot of 80s since those drops are worth exponentially more than t5s. This solution only really helps people clearing maps at lower tiers where material value is still somewhat limited.

It’s pretty much impossible not to tag the Svanir shaman unless you’re very late, he’s a HP bag. Same for fire elemental – if you missed it, you were late, or bugged – you can definitely do enough damage to be recognised as an event completer, a threshold far lower than the requirement to be recognised as a killer of a mob – which isn’t relevant on any epic-rank boss since they’re not mobs. No real exceptions to this. The ‘cannot tag for lack of dps’ problem where non-80s are screwed over happens more during the Ulgoth boss series, and the champs prior to the Caledon Wurm. People usually use parties to increase their chances of getting drops on this map, but it is a problem.

While having ‘80’ versions of maps people can opt in for loot seems the most appealing fix to this problem at present, there would need to be some other form of reward modification. Maybe a higher chance of precursors, exotics or rares, since the masterworks and blues at level 80 are nearly worthless. Ascended bloodstone dust from chests alone isn’t a sufficient incentive as few people have enough alts that they actually need to use most of it.

Hayashi.3416:

Almost all non-raid non-krait witch group events are soloable.

Let’s agree to disagree then. I don’t feel this is true, at least not for 90% of the playerbase.

You haven’t mentioned what you think about scaling the character down, about -1 to -2 of the current zone level.

Hayashi.3416:

… Same for fire elemental – if you missed it, you were late, or bugged – you can definitely do enough damage to be recognised as an event completer, a threshold far lower than the requirement to be recognised as a killer of a mob – …

Ok, the fire elemental was actually the first world boss I ran into when I started playing my main character (Sylvari) just mere weeks after the game went live. This event took roughly 10-15min, in that fight I lost all but my boots in armour (yes that means all armour red, then getting downed that many times -1). And it felt EPIC and mighty dangerous…

Que the ‘Mordue backpack hunt’, when the pre-event went on all the people were just standing there (just 10 or so were actually engaged with the content). Then the fire elemental spawned, there were 3 to 5 big flashes of light, and it was over… nothing epic nothing dangerous, it wasn’t even funny enough for a ‘lol, he went down fast’. To be frank, in hindsight, I don’t even know why he’s even spawning, you can just omit that part and nothing would have changed for anyone around.

Sure it might have been enough for everybody to press 1 about 5x, and get a loot bag, but is that really what GW2 is about? Press 1 for loot… I dunno, but it sure ain’t the game I thought I bought 2y ago!

Nah. There’s no need to tweak the scaling any more.

Just add autobalance measures to make sure extremes can’t happen.

For example, nothing but critters should die in one hit by a player.

Right now, players can go to the firs heart in Queensdale and repeatedly kill the young wurms in one hit to troll the players, same with other simiar lower level areas.
Within a single second, nothing should be able to take more than 1/3 of the health of a creature of their same scaled level 1/4 if the creature has higher level, and 1/2 if the creature has lower. This way you need 3 seconds per creature at least, not matter how many players are attacking it, giving everyone a chance to hit it.

MithranArkanere.8957:

This way you need 3 seconds per creature at least, not matter how many players are attacking it, giving everyone a chance to hit it.

Doesn’t this just sound wrong to you?

Even if it was balanced properly there wouldn’t be much point to working on it since the zones are dead because they’re uninteresting and largely pointless.

This game should’ve been designed to hit the level cap early on just like the original Guild Wars so that there weren’t so many pointless areas, but it’s a little late for that now. The dynamic events are just as boring & uninspired as they were since the game launched over 2 years ago with many of them frequently being broken, so that doesn’t help either.

@Pjwned, that is largely based on your opinion though, stating it as a fact doesn’t change that… Maybe some people love cruising through the open world, just as a past time, and would love to be challenged a bit more when doing so… In this sense I agree with your statement on the level cap, but the scale-down feature was supposed to be the solution to dealing with a more traditional level up system.

Unfortunately due to balance passes, increases in item-level cap, changes to the level up system (and consequent easing of the lower level content); this system has lost it’s initial goal. Or rather, it didn’t grow along side the changes that were made elsewhere, to compensate for these changes. Hence, my suggestion to ‘rebalance’ it…

UnitedChaos.8364:

+1 OP

I made a post a long time ago that went something like…

“Issue:
Currently if you enter a level 15-25 area, for example, you are downscaled to a level 23 which is nearly the highest “recommended” level for that area. With a level 80 character with level 80 gear you still dominate the area, and it is not near challenging due to how much experience you have playing the game. My perspective: I have a friend who just started playing, and I would like to play with them. I consider myself pretty skilled, but when I’m downscaled I’m still to powerful to help. I often find myself standing and not attacking, so they can learn the game. I want him to learn, him to play, AND me.
Suggestion:
I suggest if you enter a level 15-25 area, for example, you should be downscaled to a level 15, the lowest “recommended” level for the area. This makes the entire area much more challenging. Which, frankly, it should be. If you’ve played the entire game and have appropriate armor, understand combat, dodging, etc. you should have a good deal of experience. Also, with appropriate armor and weapons it should better balance itself.”

This sounds Likr an awesome idea. I do Not see why a level 80 downscaled to 15, should be too distressed in the zone, ..let’s face it, they faced the zone at 15 with less armor, and weapons, and it probably was not horrible.

The only reason i can see why anyone would object is because." I earned level 80, I deserve and am entitled to faceroll in lower level zones….just like in other MMO’s."

1. This is Not other MMO’s
2. it was the intent of the devs when this game launched that for a level 80, there be no " Lower level zones." the entire map, was supposed to be a level 80 zone.

Seeing I haven’t even posted my own view on this, i’ll do it now … I agree with most people (well obviously) that this system should be made harder then it currently is (why else make this thread ).

So what I would like is that the system would factor in the amount of level difference that you level down… I think a fairly simple formula would accomplish this:

CurrentPlayerLevel – MaxMapLevel = PlayerMapDifference

PlayerMapDifference * 0.1 = PlayerSetBack (round to int.)

MaxMapLevel – PlayerSetBack = PlayerScaleDownLvL

Meaning as much as

1. (lvl)80 – (1/)15 = 65
1. 65 * 0.1 = 6.5 -> 7
1. 15 – 7 = Set Player to lvl 8

2. (lvl)60 – (20/)30 = 30
2. 30 * 0.1 = 3
2. 30 – 3 = Set player to lvl27

3. (lvl)80 – (20/)30 = 50
3. 50 * 0.1 = 5
3. 30 – 5 = Set player to lvl25

4. (lvl)25 – (1/)15 = 10
4. 10 * 0.1 = 1
4. 15 – 1 = Set player to lvl14

5. lvl44 – (30/)40 = 4
5. 4 * 0.1 = 0.4 → 0
5. 40 – 0 = Set Player to lvl40

additional conditions
Now because you would want players that do not have a big level difference with the previous are to still feel like they increased in power with their increase in level, you could put some {IF …} conditions in there. F/e:

{IF CurrentPlayerLevel < 30 then
PlayerScaleDownLevel = MaxMapLevel + 1}
Meaning that in the last previous example 4. the level is set to 16 instead; this {IF} takes into account that before lvl30 you do not have an elite

While I think this is a good place to start, one could think of other {IF…} in relation to other defining moments in the increase of power: Mainly Traits, the adept also being rewarded at lvl30, the major at 60 and the elite at 80.

{IF CurrentPlayerLevel > 60 then PlayerSetBack +1}
{IF CurrentPlayerLevel = 80 then PlayerSetBack +2}

This would make the entire system look somewhat like this:

{If (CurrentPlayerLevel < 30);
Then (PlayerScaleDownLevel = MaxMapLevel + 1);
Else
CurrentPlayerLevel – MaxMapLevel = PlayerMapDifference;

PlayerMapDifference * 0.1 = PlayerSetBack (round to int.);

{If (60 < CurrentPlayerLevel < 79);
Then (PlayerSetBack +1);
MaxMapLevel – PlayerSetBack = PlayerScaleDownLvL;
Else
{If (CurrentPlayerLevel = 80);
Then (PlayerSetBack +2);
MaxMapLevel – PlayerSetBack = PlayerScaleDownLvL;
Else
MaxMapLevel – PlayerSetBack = PlayerScaleDownLvL;
}}

Set PlayerLevel = PlayerScaleDownLvL;
}

or something along those lines, and dang programming is such a perishable skill

Meaning as much as

1. (lvl)80 – (1/)15 = 65
1. 65 * 0.1 = 6.5 -> 7
1. 7 + 2 = 9
1. 15 – 9 = Set Player to lvl 6

2. (lvl)60 – (20/)30 = 30
2. 30 * 0.1 = 3
2. 3 + 1 = 4
2. 30 – 4 = Set player to lvl26

3. (lvl)80 – (20/)30 = 50
3. 50 * 0.1 = 5
3. 5 + 2 = 7
3. 30 – 7 = Set player to lvl23

4. (lvl)25 < 30
4. 15 + 1 = Set player to lvl16

5. lvl44 – (30/)40 = 4
5. 4 * 0.1 = 0.4 → 0
5. 40 – 0 = Set Player to lvl40

I think just setting the base stats to this level will more then compensate for the added strength, while not ‘borking’ a players’ build. Now obviously this would need testing! If this makes combat to trivial still, it might be an idea to ‘remove’ access to certain trait levels if the difference in PlayerLvL vs MapLvL reaches certain thresholds.