I would like a real time data log that shows me all the damage done, dps, total damage, amount of deaths etc in my speed clears.
It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.
It of course should be opional to toggle on or off, that way casuals won’t feel under pressure, but more determined palyers could use the data to improve their builds?
I would like a real time data log that shows me all the damage done, dps, total damage, amount of deaths etc in my speed clears.
It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.
It of course should be opional to toggle on or off, that way casuals won’t feel under pressure, but more determined palyers could use the data to improve their builds?
I personally loved Recount and used it all the time in Wow. However in your post you already kind of contradicted yourself and pointed out why a lot of people don’t want this in the game. You said you want it to improve your skills, but then the first thing you said was that you want to see who isn’t pulling their weight and ‘leeching’ off other people as you call it. This is the big issue.
You said these players can disable it for themselves, but the real issue is that other party members would be able to see their data therefore leaving them vulnerable for harassment for not being good enough/ getting kicked from the party halfway through a dungeon. Soon there would be ‘meta’ damage you would expect from certain classes and if someone didn’t meet it people would have a go at them or get rid of them.
Don’t get me wrong, it might also encourage a lot of people to try and get better at the game, myself included, but it’s the harassment factor which prevents this function from being included. Maybe if the person who doesn’t want such function would have the option to disable it and that in turn would also disable their data being seen by other party members would solve that issue but then people would probably kick you if they couldn’t see your data in dungeons/fractals because they would be uncomfortable/assume you’re a bad player.
I would like some form of recount. Maybe a way to see just your own stats. No way to link to anyone etc.. that way you won’t ever be required to link in chat.
It would need much more refinement, but could see it being a great addition to the game.
Recount, though not without benefits, ultimately leads to elitism. As someone mentioned above, people will soon create metas on how much dps each class needs to do to be seen as “good”. What you must understand in this is that GW2 is not like WoW wherein each player is given specific roles: there are no dedicated healers or tanks, which means everyone would be subjected to damage output. This would deter people from ever trying out anything besides trying to dish out the most amount of damage, unless it’s maybe in an organized dungeon run.
Having even your own data shown only to you with no means to link it still creates prejudice. If you see yourself doing more than 30-40% of the damage for example, you’d assume that with 5 players including yourself, there was at least one person who didn’t quite do as much damage as the norm (20% equally amongst 5 players), or worse that the other 4 did equally poorly.
In that scenario, you would either be very proud of yourself that you are able to do so much more damage than them and look down on them, or just grow to distrust them and maybe add them to your block list to make sure you don’t party with them next time. Either way, it does not promote cooperation.
That is why I don’t believe that adding such a tool will have more benefits than drawbacks.
Don’t forget to include things like Health received per second so you can see how much all the leechers are keeping you from going down inbetween those big hits.
Pulling your own weight is relative. There are many ways to pull weight, and yes while it is true that in dungeons it is generally Berserker gear and a damage build, that is not always the case (for example, at Tequatl its PVT and damage build).
That’s why something like this would be completely useless and unwelcome.
I play with all classes with varied gear, including zerk on half of them, in a great variety of situations in the game and I can say that it is impossible to generalize.
Daisuki [SUKI] LGBT-Friendly Guild Leader | NA – Jade Quarry
I’m usually really sweet… but this an internet forum and you know how it has to be.
/i’m a lesbiab… lesbiam… less bien… GIRLS/
For me, I just need a tool to screen players who join my party. If the lfg post requires zerkers, you shouldn’t be able join if you are not in full zerker gears, for example.
It may help you improve your damage, not skills. I haven’t done any dungeons in this game yet, but i assume there are more roles than just dps. And if someone is doing their job of controlling mobs, or having to be boon/condition heavy, their dps will be lacking. Then some elitist will come along and slam them for “not pulling their weight”.
I enjoy it as a novelty in games that have it, but they do more harm than good…
Possibly instead of a meter used in battle, there were practice dummies with built in dps meters which you could practice your rotation on. I could see that as beneficial
It may help you improve your damage, not skills. I haven’t done any dungeons in this game yet, but i assume there are more roles than just dps. And if someone is doing their job of controlling mobs, or having to be boon/condition heavy, their dps will be lacking. Then some elitist will come along and slam them for “not pulling their weight”.
I enjoy it as a novelty in games that have it, but they do more harm than good…
Possibly instead of a meter used in battle, there were practice dummies with built in dps meters which you could practice your rotation on. I could see that as beneficial
Damage and support are not mutually exclusive. In Gw2’s soft trinity, dps always comes first, then support second. If you prioritize support, it will diminish your overall effectiveness.
Keep in mind that CC, offensive and defensive support comes primarily from weapon skills, traits, and a little bit from your traits. You can still be in DPS gears while at the same time doing as much support for your team.
I would totally support a recount type feature on training dummies. Anything else, however is a no go. Yes, recount can be a good tool for learning – in theory. In reality, it’s mainly used in all the negative ways already outlined in this thread. GW2 is a different game than that and I would like to see it stay that way.
Also worth repeating – DPS isn’t the end all, be all stat. A recount that could analyse uptime for boons/conditions/healing etc would be fantastic as well
This would be a very bad idea. Most encounters and tasks do not require DPS and a recount would not accurately depict who is pulling the weight in the group. Not only that, it adds to the toxicity that already permeates dungeons and events in general.
If you end up with a pug, just carry harder. You’ll be proud of yourself in the end.
Liaison for [Teef]
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta
There is no need for recount in this game. Things are not on tight enrage timers like raid bosses used to be in Wow. Min-maxing (especially force min-maxing others) is not needed.
The more tools a company gives for elitists to flourish, the worse the atmosphere of the game will be for the rest of us. I don’t think any company should encourage people to empower one set of the population to demean another set of the population. Now I’m not saying all elistists do this…but some do and they’re loud and obnoxious.
We already have farmers vs people who want to just play the game in multiple threads shouting at each other, and we’ve already had a number of threads about people arguing about elitists in LFG…this would just make the issues worse.
As far as I know, there is already a DPS overlay or two out there (albeit probably a crappy one).
But in terms of them making or supporting such a tool, I doubt it’s ever going to happen. They have a game that is highly casual in design and unless they start adding raids that require 90% of your raid group to be giving out high performance of play to succeed, there is no reason for them to add or support such a tool.
It would just shine a light on glaring inadequacies of most players (which means more elitism and more players choosing not to cooperate with one another) and has the possibility of shining a light on glaring imbalances in DPS between classes (which means more balancing work).
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
Plus even a basic tool like recount doesn’t just count dps. it counts heals, damage taken, all sorts of stuff. So for example, it could also show who is giving the most might or buffs, who is providing the most reflects if any. So pulling your weight isn’t necessarily as general as basic dps
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
That’s a good point. This game has a lot of support skills fluidly built into it that would look bad on a DPS meter.
I used to play a game that had DPS meters and there was always that nagging feeling when playing a support role, “How much am I actually helping?” And of course, you would end up measuring your worth in healing and damage contributed.
Among friends it was never an issue because you all understood that certain builds are helping everybody’s damage and the proof was in the meter, but I’m not sure pugs were as understanding.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
I’ve never been booted from a party in any game for a low DPS, and you know, I still don’t want the kitten thing.
Not all good players need be elitists. Some of us don’t mind teaching…or even carrying…others.
How about something different: instead of counting the individual stats of party members, give the overall stats of the entire group. So, in cases with random people there is no change, but when in a group with closer friends/guildies you can actually measure an improvement! Of course if you want to improve just yourself, go SOLO!
There, a simple way of solving the elitisism problems from a counter, I think it’s a win-win.
The OP’s post reminds me, yet again, of why I left WoW and do not want to ever go back again. I left WoW soon after Failbot hit the airwaves. The raiding community had already been toxic as puppy and that elevated its toxicity to an artform. Every new performance meter did this, Failbot toxicity was just my limit.
Here is another thing that Recount does not take into consideration:
This game has things like the “spotter” trait for Rangers (I am forgetting the name of the equivalent on Guards), which I always run. By doing that I am decreasing my personal DPS and upping group DPS (thus making me not look as uber) by not choosing a higher DPS trait.
I was in a party about a year ago with a guy who didn’t know his class. It was 4 guildies and this guy, who was a pug.
It took us longer to run whatever dungeon we were in but he listened, tried, learned, and was a very nice guy. He was a nice enough guy and we had so much fun in the first dungeon that we ran two more dungeons with him.
I will take a guy like that over an elitist any day.
~~On Blackgate since Beta~~
80s: Necro x2, Ranger, Warr, Guardian x2, Ele x2, Mes, Thief
As a necro, you want to know why my dps in boss fights is so poor? Because I spend half the fight reviving downed zerker warriors.
Just curious, what boss fights?
I think downed zerkers is a pretty common stereotype and over-generalization of zerker players. Most of my run is with zerkers, at least I think, and no one really downs a lot to be res. Almost all just rallies.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
I’ve never been booted from a party in any game for a low DPS, and you know, I still don’t want the kitten thing.
Not all good players need be elitists. Some of us don’t mind teaching…or even carrying…others.
Wait, can’t you teach in a dps setup? Because there’s a lot of “elitists” helping new people in gw2. Or did I misunderstood?
Anyway, nay, a dps meter would lead to bad behaviors, like all pug guards running 5/6/2/0/0/2 or any more damaging option that suits instead of the support 5/4/0/0/4, or eles not running pf and weak spot.
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
I’ve never been booted from a party in any game for a low DPS, and you know, I still don’t want the kitten thing.
Not all good players need be elitists. Some of us don’t mind teaching…or even carrying…others.
Wait, can’t you teach in a dps setup? Because there’s a lot of “elitists” helping new people in gw2. Or did I misunderstood?
Anyway, nay, a dps meter would lead to bad behaviors, like all pug guards running 5/6/2/0/0/2 or any more damaging option that suits instead of the support 5/4/0/0/4, or eles not running pf and weak spot.
Sure I can teach. I’m not the problem. I wouldn’t be using recount.
The problem is (and this is a problem most people seem to not acknowledege) is that the hard core community remains a small percentage of games, because the hard core community isn’t welcoming in general.
There are plenty of people who don’t know what to do in a dungeon, try a dungeon get yelled at and kicked and never get back. (I rewrote the next sentence six times to not get infracted lol).
The people who do this are their own worst enemies because they chase off potential players who might one day be like them through lack of patience. Then they complain no one knows how to play the game.
The tool set provided for any game shouldn’t encourage people to treat other people like this.
The more tools a company gives for elitists to flourish, the worse the atmosphere of the game will be for the rest of us. I don’t think any company should encourage people to empower one set of the population to demean another set of the population. Now I’m not saying all elistists do this…but some do and they’re loud and obnoxious.
We already have farmers vs people who want to just play the game in multiple threads shouting at each other, and we’ve already had a number of threads about people arguing about elitists in LFG…this would just make the issues worse.
For people who marginalize and point the finger at “elitists” making them out to be a plague and something you wouldn’t want to share a dungeon with – I find it very odd that the same people want to deny these “elitists” the tools through which interaction between them and the “playhowyouwant” crowd would be kept to a minimum.
How is someone choosing who he wants to play with “demeaning” to others?
How is it that someone in cleric’s sneaking into my full zerker party is perfectly ok but the moment that I exclude someone based on my own criteria it becomes demeaning?
Maybe I just don’t want to play with that player – for whatever reason. It would spare us both grief and time if there was a way to avoid each other.
That way I wouldn’t have to make him ping his gear and then listen to “his thoughts” on the matter of kicking him because he didn’t meet the requirements for the party that were posted.
It would be less traumatic for him and for me. So why not?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The more tools a company gives for elitists to flourish, the worse the atmosphere of the game will be for the rest of us. I don’t think any company should encourage people to empower one set of the population to demean another set of the population. Now I’m not saying all elistists do this…but some do and they’re loud and obnoxious.
We already have farmers vs people who want to just play the game in multiple threads shouting at each other, and we’ve already had a number of threads about people arguing about elitists in LFG…this would just make the issues worse.
For people who marginalize and point the finger at “elitists” making them out to be a plague and something you wouldn’t want to share a dungeon with – I find it very odd that the same people want to deny these “elitists” the tools through which interaction between them and the “playhowyouwant” crowd would be kept to a minimum.
How is someone choosing who he wants to play with “demeaning” to others?
How is it that someone in cleric’s sneaking into my full zerker party is perfectly ok but the moment that I exclude someone based on my own criteria it becomes demeaning?
Maybe I just don’t want to play with that player – for whatever reason. It would spare us both grief and time if there was a way to avoid each other.
That way I wouldn’t have to make him ping his gear and then listen to “his thoughts” on the matter of kicking him because he didn’t meet the requirements for the party that were posted.
It would be less traumatic for him and for me. So why not?
Because tools like this encourage more elitists to play. Do you know why I won’t play Archeage? Because the rule set and setup encourage people to grief. The game is made to grief in. So more griefers will be there, because that’s the kind of thing they enjoy. Hopefully that means less griefers here.
The less Anet appeals to that demographic, the happier I am.
It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.
I can’t fathom the sheer idiocy of such a statement as it pertains to Guild Wars 2. Since when are the dungeons in this game that hardcore to require something like a DPS meter? There is not a single thing in this game outside of maybe grinding a Legendary that can be even remotely referred to as “work.” Half the time I end up four-manning a dungeon because the group is too impatient to wait for someone else to join. Coupled with the fact that everyone gets their own loot from dungeons and freeloaders don’t steal anything from you you’ve been trying to get, why is it such a problem? Because it took an extra minute or two to down a boss because someone wasn’t Zerker? Oh. My. Jesus. I’m quitting the game right now.
It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.
I can’t fathom the sheer idiocy of such a statement as it pertains to Guild Wars 2. Since when are the dungeons in this game that hardcore to require something like a DPS meter? There is not a single thing in this game outside of maybe grinding a Legendary that can be even remotely referred to as “work.” Half the time I end up four-manning a dungeon because the group is too impatient to wait for someone else to join. Coupled with the fact that everyone gets their own loot from dungeons and freeloaders don’t steal anything from you you’ve been trying to get, why is it such a problem? Because it took an extra minute or two to down a boss because someone wasn’t Zerker? Oh. My. Jesus. I’m quitting the game right now.
It’s not just about the extra time it took the run to finish. The smoothness of the run is also considered. If a 1 min boss took 2 min instead, that’s higher the chance that someone might miss dodge, then domino effect, could lead to a wipe. Those things leaves me scratching my head at the end; it just wasn’t a pleasurable experience.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
I’ve never been booted from a party in any game for a low DPS, and you know, I still don’t want the kitten thing.
Not all good players need be elitists. Some of us don’t mind teaching…or even carrying…others.
Wait, can’t you teach in a dps setup? Because there’s a lot of “elitists” helping new people in gw2. Or did I misunderstood?
Anyway, nay, a dps meter would lead to bad behaviors, like all pug guards running 5/6/2/0/0/2 or any more damaging option that suits instead of the support 5/4/0/0/4, or eles not running pf and weak spot.
Sure I can teach. I’m not the problem. I wouldn’t be using recount.
The problem is (and this is a problem most people seem to not acknowledege) is that the hard core community remains a small percentage of games, because the hard core community isn’t welcoming in general.
There are plenty of people who don’t know what to do in a dungeon, try a dungeon get yelled at and kicked and never get back. (I rewrote the next sentence six times to not get infracted lol).
The people who do this are their own worst enemies because they chase off potential players who might one day be like them through lack of patience. Then they complain no one knows how to play the game.
The tool set provided for any game shouldn’t encourage people to treat other people like this.
Thing is the hardcore community described at elitists are actually the most helpful to new players. Look at the dungeon mentor guild, and the dozens of arah soloers taking inexperienced players with them to show them the ropes. Those people getting yelled at are usually guilty. They join an “exp” lfg, and expect to get carried to the endboss. The few willing to learn get all the support from us elitists. This thread and the dungeon in general is full of hate against better and experienced players for whatever reason, meanwhile those experienced players are busy teaching. There’s idiots on both sides, and name calling on both sides, but you can’t reduce a community of like minded players looking for improvement into a stereotype of unwelcoming and uneducated crowd. There’s nothing to do in this game as an “hardcore” ( read: experienced) player; thus we teach the new generation of players.
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
I’ve never been booted from a party in any game for a low DPS, and you know, I still don’t want the kitten thing.
Not all good players need be elitists. Some of us don’t mind teaching…or even carrying…others.
Wait, can’t you teach in a dps setup? Because there’s a lot of “elitists” helping new people in gw2. Or did I misunderstood?
Anyway, nay, a dps meter would lead to bad behaviors, like all pug guards running 5/6/2/0/0/2 or any more damaging option that suits instead of the support 5/4/0/0/4, or eles not running pf and weak spot.
Sure I can teach. I’m not the problem. I wouldn’t be using recount.
The problem is (and this is a problem most people seem to not acknowledege) is that the hard core community remains a small percentage of games, because the hard core community isn’t welcoming in general.
There are plenty of people who don’t know what to do in a dungeon, try a dungeon get yelled at and kicked and never get back. (I rewrote the next sentence six times to not get infracted lol).
The people who do this are their own worst enemies because they chase off potential players who might one day be like them through lack of patience. Then they complain no one knows how to play the game.
The tool set provided for any game shouldn’t encourage people to treat other people like this.
Thing is the hardcore community described at elitists are actually the most helpful to new players. Look at the dungeon mentor guild, and the dozens of arah soloers taking inexperienced players with them to show them the ropes. Those people getting yelled at are usually guilty. They join an “exp” lfg, and expect to get carried to the endboss. The few willing to learn get all the support from us elitists. This thread and the dungeon in general is full of hate against better and experienced players for whatever reason, meanwhile those experienced players are busy teaching. There’s idiots on both sides, and name calling on both sides, but you can’t reduce a community of like minded players looking for improvement into a stereotype of unwelcoming and uneducated crowd. There’s nothing to do in this game as an “hardcore” ( read: experienced) player; thus we teach the new generation of players.
I agree with this actually, I said the same thing about farmers. All communities have good and bad players in them.
The more visible your bad players, the more likely your communities reputation will be tarnished by them. By the same token, there are people who run around calling others bads, talking about how great they are. It’s not just my imagination. And not all of them are great. That’s not my imagination either. In my experience, the best people aren’t usually the loudest.
Tools like this won’t just empower the true elite. Tools like this will give a weapon to the other crowd, which is my problem with it.
Ranger Warhorn 5 grants Might and Fury to the entire party, but doesn’t deal any direct damage itself. So, if a player wants to increase their personal DPS and appear to “pull their weight,” they must never use it — even though it would greatly benefit the party and increase everyone’s overall damage-dealing potential.
GW2 has all kinds of skills like this, with more complicated potential benefits hidden through support and buffs, or combo fields and finishers. Appealing to a raw personal damage meter as a measure of player ability or who is “pulling their weight” is incredibly myopic. You sound like you do not understand this game at all, much less sound like someone anyone would want to play with.
It is none of your business, how much DPS other party members are doing. If you don’t like playing with random people or don’t feel like most people are as “good” as you, find a hardcore guild and party up with them.
And you sound like one of the people that fears being booted for low contributions or performance. Plus, if they are in my party, then yes it is my business. Your way of reasoning is very selfish. What you’re basically saying is yeh, i’ll join your party but I’ll do the hell what I like and no suggestions, hints, advice or directions from other party members are welcome. Who wants to party up with someone like that?
I’ve never been booted from a party in any game for a low DPS, and you know, I still don’t want the kitten thing.
Not all good players need be elitists. Some of us don’t mind teaching…or even carrying…others.
Wait, can’t you teach in a dps setup? Because there’s a lot of “elitists” helping new people in gw2. Or did I misunderstood?
Anyway, nay, a dps meter would lead to bad behaviors, like all pug guards running 5/6/2/0/0/2 or any more damaging option that suits instead of the support 5/4/0/0/4, or eles not running pf and weak spot.
Sure I can teach. I’m not the problem. I wouldn’t be using recount.
The problem is (and this is a problem most people seem to not acknowledege) is that the hard core community remains a small percentage of games, because the hard core community isn’t welcoming in general.
There are plenty of people who don’t know what to do in a dungeon, try a dungeon get yelled at and kicked and never get back. (I rewrote the next sentence six times to not get infracted lol).
The people who do this are their own worst enemies because they chase off potential players who might one day be like them through lack of patience. Then they complain no one knows how to play the game.
The tool set provided for any game shouldn’t encourage people to treat other people like this.
Thing is the hardcore community described at elitists are actually the most helpful to new players. Look at the dungeon mentor guild, and the dozens of arah soloers taking inexperienced players with them to show them the ropes. Those people getting yelled at are usually guilty. They join an “exp” lfg, and expect to get carried to the endboss. The few willing to learn get all the support from us elitists. This thread and the dungeon in general is full of hate against better and experienced players for whatever reason, meanwhile those experienced players are busy teaching. There’s idiots on both sides, and name calling on both sides, but you can’t reduce a community of like minded players looking for improvement into a stereotype of unwelcoming and uneducated crowd. There’s nothing to do in this game as an “hardcore” ( read: experienced) player; thus we teach the new generation of players.
I agree with this actually, I said the same thing about farmers. All communities have good and bad players in them.
The more visible your bad players, the more likely your communities reputation will be tarnished by them. By the same token, there are people who run around calling others bads, talking about how great they are. It’s not just my imagination. And not all of them are great. That’s not my imagination either. In my experience, the best people aren’t usually the loudest.
Tools like this won’t just empower the true elite. Tools like this will give a weapon to the other crowd, which is my problem with it.
Pretty much what I was going to say. Good players generally know they’re good without the use of recount and it’s ilk. They’re also usually willing to share their knowledge, which as a dungeon noob I’m personally very grateful for.
The prominent use of DPS meters is to enable the undesirables to foist the blame for their own incompetence onto others, usually in the most obnoxious way possible. My experience, obviously, ymmv.
The more tools a company gives for elitists to flourish, the worse the atmosphere of the game will be for the rest of us. I don’t think any company should encourage people to empower one set of the population to demean another set of the population. Now I’m not saying all elistists do this…but some do and they’re loud and obnoxious.
We already have farmers vs people who want to just play the game in multiple threads shouting at each other, and we’ve already had a number of threads about people arguing about elitists in LFG…this would just make the issues worse.
For people who marginalize and point the finger at “elitists” making them out to be a plague and something you wouldn’t want to share a dungeon with – I find it very odd that the same people want to deny these “elitists” the tools through which interaction between them and the “playhowyouwant” crowd would be kept to a minimum.
How is someone choosing who he wants to play with “demeaning” to others?
How is it that someone in cleric’s sneaking into my full zerker party is perfectly ok but the moment that I exclude someone based on my own criteria it becomes demeaning?
Maybe I just don’t want to play with that player – for whatever reason. It would spare us both grief and time if there was a way to avoid each other.
That way I wouldn’t have to make him ping his gear and then listen to “his thoughts” on the matter of kicking him because he didn’t meet the requirements for the party that were posted.
It would be less traumatic for him and for me. So why not?
Because tools like this encourage more elitists to play. Do you know why I won’t play Archeage? Because the rule set and setup encourage people to grief. The game is made to grief in. So more griefers will be there, because that’s the kind of thing they enjoy. Hopefully that means less griefers here.
The less Anet appeals to that demographic, the happier I am.
So basically you’re saying that “elitists” are worse than “playhowyouwants”.
You’re just justifying it through the use of " this demographic is better than that demographic" which is just plain wrong.
I’m not saying either is better – I’m saying give us tools to avoid each other and unwanted grief on both sides.
I’m not asking for DPS-meters or inspects in dungeons – but for filters in the LFG – so people who don’t want to play together never meat each other.
It reduces overall tension because it allows everyone to find people more similar to them.
Just like I could have a tick requiring 100% zerker gear if someone wants to join my party – others could have a tick requiring 0% zerker gear.
See what I mean?
Elitism isn’t the problem – it’s elitists interacting with “Playhowyouwants” and the resulting tension and grief that’s the problem.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Tools like this won’t just empower the true elite. Tools like this will give a weapon to the other crowd, which is my problem with it.
And how exactly does a LFG filter become a “weapon”?
The OP’s suggestion might not be the best idea – but an AP limiter, gear limiter and other such filters could easily be placed in the LFG.
Tension would be lower because the two groups wouldn’t be interacting that much after its implementation.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Pretty much what I was going to say. Good players generally know they’re good without the use of recount and it’s ilk. They’re also usually willing to share their knowledge, which as a dungeon noob I’m personally very grateful for.
The prominent use of DPS meters is to enable the undesirables to foist the blame for their own incompetence onto others, usually in the most obnoxious way possible. My experience, obviously, ymmv.
The problem is that good players with time will be able to help but there are a lot of us who simply don’t have time for that.
And some of us who simply don’t care for it.
I’ve done enough COF P1 teaching and had enough of it.
The real problem is people who refuse to adapt or learn at all under the pretense of “don’t tell me what to do” .
@Woljnir – It’s about time but more importantly about the experience.
Believe it or not – but taking too long for a boss or wiping on a boss actually ruins the game experience for me. The whole dungeon experience is made poorer if I have to constantly have to take care of someone who simply has no idea.
It’s not just about time – but also about the quality of my time spent in game.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.
Dps meter haters are the epitome of hypocritical thinkers.
They want you to be able to “play how you want”, and “not encourage elitism”
Unless of course how you want to play is well or with like minded people, in which case you are the devil and should leave the game.
You can’t argue with them because you are wrong by definition in their mind. The idea of playing well and learning to improve yourself is repulsive to them.
Sure I can teach. I’m not the problem. I wouldn’t be using recount.
The problem is (and this is a problem most people seem to not acknowledege) is that the hard core community remains a small percentage of games, because the hard core community isn’t welcoming in general.
There are plenty of people who don’t know what to do in a dungeon, try a dungeon get yelled at and kicked and never get back. (I rewrote the next sentence six times to not get infracted lol).
The people who do this are their own worst enemies because they chase off potential players who might one day be like them through lack of patience. Then they complain no one knows how to play the game.
The tool set provided for any game shouldn’t encourage people to treat other people like this.
If recount existed I would be using it and I don’t see how that would make me “part of the problem”.
First of all hardcore doesn’t mean elitist, minmaxer doesn’t mean kittenbag. Second of all I refuse to acknowledge your problem given that two of the most succesful games ever (Dota2 and LoL) are hardcore in nature and have extremely toxic communities.
Not that I condone yelling at newbies. Or at anyone, really.
“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”
Why not have such a tool that only shows your own stats? Then you can see where you need to improve without letting the “elitists” have hard numbers to judge people with.
“You’ll PAY to know what you really think.” ~ J. R. “Bob” Dobbs
I would like a real time data log that shows me all the damage done, dps, total damage, amount of deaths etc in my speed clears.
It would be nice to have something like Recount so i can see who isn’t pulling their weight. Can’t stand leechers who get loot and gold off of others hard work and abilities.
It of course should be opional to toggle on or off, that way casuals won’t feel under pressure, but more determined palyers could use the data to improve their builds?
First, that’s mighty white a ya.
Second, if it was optional (which, if they even consider this, I would hope it would be, not that it would matter much to me, I’m always clear when joining fractals to build my mawdrey, for example, that I’m not very good at that content, and always join level 1, so expectations are hopefully where they should be), then how would it solve your problem if the ‘leechers’ optionally turn their’s off? Or, would that be a criteria of someone joining you, that they had to turn it on so you could put stars on bellies of the ‘haves’ and ‘soon to haves’? I guess I can live with that, that also helps me identify you, as I’m also not interested in playing with people that derive their success not by what they accomplish, but by what they have that others can’t have.
Because I primarily play MMO’s for immersion and exploration.
I improve my skills through practice – not spreadsheets.
Pretty sure you just ignored the concept of an on/off toggle so you had something to complain about.
That said, I’m not entirely certain a DPS meter would really be of any use here, as aggro seems to just be based on giving a boss a whole bottle of nodoz and seeing who they swing at next.
You are lying to yourself if you think that dps meters wouldn’t create more hostility and “toxicity” in the community.
Sure not everyone using it is going to be a kittenhead, but many will, and is it really worth it? Just so you can see your dps numbers? If you are such a good player you should be more aware of your dps contribution and spot who is lagging behind in terms of damage.
GW2 pve is a co-operative environment. Any form of dps meter is divisive, as evidenced in this thread. I don’t see how these polar ends can be reconciled, and imo a dps meter would be used to get rid of ‘bads’ instead of educating them, cos u know- a elitists’ time is more important than anyone elses…
