Guild Wars 2

I understand religion is a sensitive subject for many and being an atheist i don’t care much for it at all. Throughout the game I have noticed dialogue that catered for or against religion within the game realm and i was wondering why it is needed in video games? for example the tournament master would say “I pray to the spirits of the wild…but they hardly answer” there would be other dialogue similar to this throughout the game but i was just curious as to why this is necessary in games .

Whatever your views on real-world views on religion are, faith (or lack thereof) can add depth to fictional characters.

I think they say they rarely answer? but i may be wrong hm. It’s just an aspect in the game, like in this world, we have religion thrown at our faces whether we like it or not, Tyria also has such religious pepz, but at least these gods and spirits really do exist and have been observed by enough people of their day and age to say to the least that yes, they exist.

Holyblesserx.7618:

I understand religion is a sensitive subject for many and being an atheist i don’t care much for it at all. Throughout the game I have noticed dialogue that catered for or against religion within the game realm and i was wondering why it is needed in video games? for example the tournament master would say “I pray to the spirits of the wild…but they hardly answer” there would be other dialogue similar to this throughout the game but i was just curious as to why this is necessary in games .

Religion is huge in our culture. Nearly everyone has one. It’s only natural to add real world myths to a video game, especially a fantasy role playing game.

I like how the different races and individuals have all sorts of views, mixes things up.

Religions are a part of culture, they may not be accurate to reality but they are interesting and full of imaginative subject matter.

I don’t go to church but I play video games every day. Do what you will with this answer.

It helps give the different races their distinct culture and flavor. Norn aren’t just big humans, they worship spirits of nature that are real and an integral part of their culture. One of the norn personal stories involves rescuing the Minotaur spirit, your personal story is influenced by the spirit you choose to follow, Owl sacrificed itself and was consumed by Jormag to allow the norn to escape…

The humans of Divinity’s Reach continue to worship their own gods even though they seem to have been driven from the world or destroyed. This tells you a lot about their stubbornness and commitment.

For the sylvari, the Pale Tree is not just a goddess but the mother of every single member of the community. And asura worship Science, not gods. Not sure about charr though… I haven’t played them much, they seem to have a sort of ancestor worship thing going on.

It’s needed if you want your game to reflect the complexities, variety, and realism of a living world. All complex societies have some form of religion, ritual, or tradition and many different viewpoints on the matter. By having a wide range of religious, spiritual, and atheistic views in the game, the world is more interesting and it offers more points for the player to connect to on an emotional level. If the game were completely devoid of religion, or viewpoints for/against religion, it would be less lifelike and the societies we encounter in-game would be less interesting.
Personally, I’ve enjoyed hearing the different worldviews of the characters, and developing religious worldviews for my own characters—who range from atheist, to agnostic, to deeply religious.

Given that to some extent these games are both fantastical and anachronistic, this presence makes sense.

The only thing that bugs me a little bit is how the ‘atheist’ race is also the most militant and hostile race. It’s very likely it would be the opposite.

Holyblesserx.7618:

I understand religion is a sensitive subject for many and being an atheist i don’t care much for it at all. Throughout the game I have noticed dialogue that catered for or against religion within the game realm and i was wondering why it is needed in video games? for example the tournament master would say “I pray to the spirits of the wild…but they hardly answer” there would be other dialogue similar to this throughout the game but i was just curious as to why this is necessary in games .

In historical settings, atheists were incredibly rare. GW2 seems to emulate a 1700-1800 CE time period, there were practically no outspoken atheists at that time in earths history. It would be odd to have a semi-historical setting without religion.

Also in a world where magic and gods and spirits are actually real, some people are bound to revere them.

Relgion expands the world….it’s the simple. It provides culture for various races. And in a game, religion is real in the way that magic is real.

OP, you say you’re an atheist. So you don’t believe in God. So maybe we should keep religion out of the game.

Well, I don’t believe in magic…should we keep that out of the game?

I don’t believe in Asura. Should we keep them out of the game?

Within the context of the game, the spirits of the wild are real. They’re part of the story and lore of the world, same as magic. Since neither provably exists in the real world, why keep them out of the game?

I think it’s in the charr beginning video where it says they killed their gods with…something. Building, manufacturing? I think the point of it was that they moved on from deity worship.

It isn’t necessarily required, but religion can be a powerful story-telling tool that helps add more depth to a culture, an organization, or even an individual.

Take the humans for example. One of their key, defining traits is that they’re a tenacious and resilient people. One of the main reasons for that tenacity is their religion: most humans believe they have a sort of manifest destiny from their Six Gods. They don’t get demoralized when the going gets rough because they believe they’re just being tested by their gods. You can beat them to the edge of extinction, but they’ll just bounce back because they believe it is the will of The Six for them to do so. Their faith and belief defines them.

Similarly, the charr’s lack of any religion is a defining characteristic of their race. They were fooled once before by a supposed religious caste who turned out to be nothing but deceptive power-mongers. Now, one of the defining features of the charr race is that they will bow before no one — not even a “god” — and treat anything spiritual or supernatural with extreme suspicion.

Using religion can also help define a character. How a character’s personal religious views match (or contrast) with their society’s views can tell you something about that character. A norn who didn’t believe in the Spirits of the Wild, or an asura who believed in a sentient deity could be a very interesting plot device. Similarly, showing a human character frequently praying to Dwayna is an easy way to convey that the character is loyal, orderly, puts others above himself, etc.

Whether you embrace it, shun it, or are indifferent to it, “religion” has existed in our world since the dawn of civilization. To have a well-developed fantasy world that doesn’t have any sort of references to religions would feel odd. But it’s not completely unheard of. Beowulf is a prime example of a fantasy that is explicitly devoid of religion or any concept of a “here-after”.

Einlanzer.1627:

Given that to some extent these games are both fantastical and anachronistic, this presence makes sense.

The only thing that bugs me a little bit is how the ‘atheist’ race is also the most militant and hostile race. It’s very likely it would be the opposite.

The Charr are more agnostic or misothiestic than atheistic. I feel that the Charr would admit there are gods/spirits they just don’t care about them.

Einlanzer.1627:

Given that to some extent these games are both fantastical and anachronistic, this presence makes sense.

The only thing that bugs me a little bit is how the ‘atheist’ race is also the most militant and hostile race. It’s very likely it would be the opposite.

Many (but not all) members of a certain german political party prominent during WW2, who’s name gets filtered by these forums were atheists, and, of course, very militaristic. And many communists have been atheistic and militaristic – notably Joseph Stalin.

The Charr are kind of like kitten-Germany (See what what the forums do there).

Atheisim, and a lack of spirituality certainly became more common after the industrial revolution in western culture, when people started to realise science did a better job of explaining the natural world than religion did. So it’s not surprising that the industrialised Charr have been portrayed as atheists.

Nothing wrong with it. Stories can have any and all kinds of elements to help develop thoughts or ideas and get the audience thinking.

In this story there are six gods.

FYI, I’m also an atheist. Nevertheless, gods in stories have never bugged me and sometimes are fun to indulge in, depending on the story of course. Fiction is fiction, so have fun with it, yea?

Blackmoon.6837:

Nothing wrong with it. Stories can have any and all kinds of elements to help develop thoughts or ideas and get the audience thinking.

In this story there are six gods.

FYI, I’m also an atheist. Nevertheless, gods in stories have never bugged me and sometimes are fun to indulge in, depending on the story of course. Fiction is fiction, so have fun with it, yea?

op wasnt about it being bothersome. just a general question

It’s worth pointing out, the Charr of the three allied legions aren’t Athiest in the slightest. They acknowledge the Gods and Spirits other races worship as beings of power, but refuse to place themselves in a subservient position to any such being. To the Charr, there’s little difference between a Human cowering under the protection of Balthazar, a Norn who joins the Sons of Svanir, and a Grawl prostrating himself before whatever shiny object catches his attention – all are admitting profound personal weakness. They apparently recognize some distinction in the veneration of the Norn towards the Spirits of the Wild that makes it at least tolerable, although it’s hard to pinpoint the exact difference.

This is less a function of industrialism and more a function of political revolution against the once-dominant Flame Legion, and rejection of the ideals of the Shaman Caste most concentrated therein. Industrialism among the Charr really kicked into full gear after the revolution, rather than precipitating it. The Shaman Caste has moved through several “Gods”, starting with the Titans, then the Destroyers (during which the other three legions split off, all before Primordius awoke, so they didn’t risk Dragon Corruption apparently), and finally attempting to elevate one of their own, Gaheron Baelfire, as a living god.

Holyblesserx.7618:

op wasnt about it being bothersome. just a general question

My apologies. I just don’t see a reason to inquiring over the subject matter of fiction unless it is being opposed.

Quite frankly, not to be rude, it should be common sense as to why religion is in stories. There are numerous reasons as to how it works in a story; it’s just a matter of how you interpret it. When it boils down to interpretation, well that’s when we get to the essence of personal enjoyment etc. No reason to go further I say.

I suppose I’m just having a hard time understanding the complexity that Holyblesserx is suggesting.

The thing is, there’s an element of negative prejudice in even posing the question. On Earth, there’s no real proof that God exists, and religion is obviously looked down upon.

On Tyria, the gods are real. We’ve seen them and their avatars. So the question as asked is why is it necessary to including religion in a game. The very question leads me to believe as an atheist the OP has problem with religion (which I suppose is fine since most religions have a problem with atheism).

Religion, like it or not, is part of humanity. And you know, I’m not a big fan either, but it doesn’t mean I can deny it’s existence, or it’s impact on human society. Not having religion in a fantasy game would almost be more of a “lie” that having it, considering how wide-spread it is.

I guess the question I’d ask the OP is why you would not put religion into a game.

Holyblesserx.7618:

I understand religion is a sensitive subject for many and being an atheist i don’t care much for it at all. Throughout the game I have noticed dialogue that catered for or against religion within the game realm and i was wondering why it is needed in video games? for example the tournament master would say “I pray to the spirits of the wild…but they hardly answer” there would be other dialogue similar to this throughout the game but i was just curious as to why this is necessary in games .

You need to read – movies don’t count – some of the seminal RPG works (LoTR, Conan the Barbarian stories). It’s a non-question.

As a pretty militant atheist, who believes religious buildings should have an 18+ age restriction, it would slightly irk me that my human characters have to choose a god… but the concept is so glossed over (mentioned in only a few comments in Story mode) that it is a completely ignorable issue.

I choose to ignore it.

The other point that I would make is that for humans, at least, religion would be particularly strong since their race has had a real battering in recent times, so many people would need something to fall back on for personal strength and for community values. Religion fits the bill.

GuzziHero.2467:

As a pretty militant atheist, who believes religious buildings should have an 18+ age restriction, it would slightly irk me that my human characters have to choose a god… but the concept is so glossed over (mentioned in only a few comments in Story mode) that it is a completely ignorable issue.

I choose to ignore it.

The other point that I would make is that for humans, at least, religion would be particularly strong since their race has had a real battering in recent times, so many people would need something to fall back on for personal strength and for community values. Religion fits the bill.

I’m in the same boat as you but if gods were real I’d totally pick one that I liked to support me in life.

I mean you actually get spells directly from them, reliably :p

And people call me indignant for being a creationist. Guess I’ll give perspective from the opposite end of the spectrum.

The metaphysical, spiritual, nth dimensional, astral, or whatever you want to call it, adds a creative outlet for the universe to be expanded upon, and also describes the very world in ways that aren’t plainly stated. From the conviction of faith in the humans to the indignation for defiance of the charr, these elements give the races identity, personality, and culture. It provides a meaningful method to express conformity and rebellion in individual characters. It provides meaning to conflict and war that extends beyond power, wealth, resources, discrimination, and status. It makes rebellion and loyalty much deeper to the story.

Religion in fiction provides a very rich breeding ground for content and creativity in the game. It can make things complex, or it can be overly simplified. It is for this reason that I seldom look deeper into super pretendy fun time to find something to be concerned with. There are only a few exceptions where I take offense to something:

#1: The story is a thinly veiled allegory against Christianity, religion, and/or religious people.
#2: The purpose of the work is designed to inspire detrimental behavior in its audience (note: not exclusive to Christianity, religion, and/or religious people).
#3: Central and/or critical plot points depend on the falsehood of Christianity and/or real world religion specifically.

And GW2 does none of these things. Though it does skirt the line with sylvari sexuality at times, it isn’t explicit or severe, and can be understood readily in other ways. It is fairly neutral in most things, actually. The gods in the game are real to the game, so any statement of something like animal spirits “rarely answering” can’t be extrapolated to further meaning without breaking a barrier in logic: the animal spirits are real to the game. Magic in the game, from what the game explains, is a physical property that is measurable and likely quantifiable, making it an expansion of universal physics than anything occultic. The polytheistic nature of the world has yet to make any statements on monotheism vs. polytheism applicable to the real world, or any statements other than being a given. The secularist race (the charr. I’d call it secular charrism) in the game acts out of rebellion and not presumed falsehood. The presence of this race doesn’t make any statements otherwise, since the gods make quite an impact to the humans and norn. The afterlife plainly exists, but isn’t well defined in any way, so it makes no statements on punishment, justice, or the lack thereof.

So again, with the lack of anything to be sincerely offended by, I must stress this term once again: Super Pretendy Fun Time. GW2 is not trying to grab our attention then hijack our entertainment because one of the writers has an intolerant chip on their shoulder.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

And people call me indignant for being a creationist. Guess I’ll give perspective from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Indignant?

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Just made me scratch my head at that use.

#1: The story is a thinly veiled allegory against Christianity, religion, and/or religious people.
#2: The purpose of the work is designed to inspire detrimental behavior in its audience (note: not exclusive to Christianity, religion, and/or religious people).
#3: Central and/or critical plot points depend on the falsehood of Christianity and/or real world religion specifically.

I’m curious how you would view the Shin Megami Tensei series, especially “Nocturne”.

Me, I find it intriguing because I find “religion” and “faith” are distinct things. I know plenty of people who claim one religion or subdivision of such . . . and willingly act against principles central to it (“Do unto others…” for instance).

When someone writing a fiction wants to pick up the idea of blind devotion being wrong? I’ll stand behind the story on that note, because you should never default to “because I was just following policy” for how you live your life.

And GW2 does none of these things. Though it does skirt the line with sylvari sexuality at times, it isn’t explicit or severe, and can be understood readily in other ways.

. . . what sexuality? They’re gender-neutral and have . . . have nothing to . . . suddenly my brain hurts trying to grasp this.

I don’t have anything more to say to your post, so to go back to the OP.

- – - – -

It’s really hard to try to talk about religion in a fiction not making sense when there is tangible proof in-setting that they actually have a presence and power. In the real world, it’s rather easy to do for people. (Don’t bother debating me on this, I won’t do it.)

In a world where you could in the past seek an audience with the Five Gods and speak to their avatars by showing some sign of respect and offering a small tithe . . . where you could travel to the Underworld (domain of Grenth, god of death) to fight back the former holder to the position . . .

Arguing that religion is “passe” is kind of missing the point, don’t you think?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Indignant?

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Just made me scratch my head at that use.

The usage is quite literal: feeling, characterized by, or expressing strong displeasure at something considered unjust, offensive, insulting, or base. In this particular case, “characterized” is the active usage.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m curious how you would view the Shin Megami Tensei series, especially “Nocturne”.

Me, I find it intriguing because I find “religion” and “faith” are distinct things. I know plenty of people who claim one religion or subdivision of such . . . and willingly act against principles central to it (“Do unto others…” for instance).

When someone writing a fiction wants to pick up the idea of blind devotion being wrong? I’ll stand behind the story on that note, because you should never default to “because I was just following policy” for how you live your life.

Only thing I know about the Shin Megami Tensei series is the Persona 4 TV show. Anyway, religion and faith are different things, much like how cars and fuel emissions are different things, but don’t kid around: they go hand in hand with each other. Unless a distinction is made to say otherwise, commenting on one speaks profoundly about the other. It is unfortunate that I can’t recall ever seeing this distinction, from fictional works to the beliefs held by people I know personally. As forgiving as I am, I won’t inject a divide into a story where there clearly isn’t a divide.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . what sexuality? They’re gender-neutral and have . . . have nothing to . . . suddenly my brain hurts trying to grasp this.

And that is why I said:

…it isn’t explicit or severe, and can be understood readily in other ways.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Just made me scratch my head at that use.

The usage is quite literal: feeling, characterized by, or expressing strong displeasure at something considered unjust, offensive, insulting, or base. In this particular case, “characterized” is the active usage.

Not a standard usage I’m used to. Got it

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Anyway, religion and faith are different things, much like how cars and fuel emissions are different things, but don’t kid around: they go hand in hand with each other. Unless a distinction is made to say otherwise, commenting on one speaks profoundly about the other. It is unfortunate that I can’t recall ever seeing this distinction, from fictional works to the beliefs held by people I know personally. As forgiving as I am, I won’t inject a divide into a story where there clearly isn’t a divide.

Blame Kevin Smith’s movie “Dogma”. Wherein it goes pretty much as irrevereant as you can while at least trying to carry positive messages. It’s a mess, but I was young and one conversation separating “faith” from “religion” stuck with me. Also a couple talks with various religious leaders . . . but we get off track rather fast.

Let’s just say it’s been reinforced and there is a distinction in my current world view. I speak no more of it here since it’s definitely way outside the topic.

On topic, I’d just say there is “faith” in all the races of Tyria, though not necessarily religion. Even the charr, their “faith” is more in each other than any deity. The asura have the Eternal Alchemy, which is to me, similar to people who speak of ‘destiny’ or ‘a divine plan’.

However, the only organized religions we can see are the worship of the Six Human Gods. The Spirits of the Wild are treated less as deities and more as forces of nature to which a face and a mind can be attributed, and as such “I pray to the Spirits of the Wild, but they rarely answer”.

To borrow/mangle a phrase from another fiction: “Wolf is not a tame wolf to come when its called.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Indignant?

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Just made me scratch my head at that use.

It’s legit.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Me, I find it intriguing because I find “religion” and “faith” are distinct things. I know plenty of people who claim one religion or subdivision of such . . . and willingly act against principles central to it (“Do unto others…” for instance).

This is true.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

When someone writing a fiction wants to pick up the idea of blind devotion being wrong? I’ll stand behind the story on that note, because you should never default to “because I was just following policy” for how you live your life.

Story of the charr, titans, and flame legion.

The other legions eventually threw off that yoke, and thus the rebellious and critical eye of the charr towards deities and even magic in general.

“Rely on iron, not false gods.”

The titans were certainly false gods (felled by humans) and the flame legion theocratic slavers.

Were the flame legion to have their way, I imagine charr society might be a bit like Bioshock Infinite with a Pyre Fierceshot as Booker.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . what sexuality? They’re gender-neutral and have . . . have nothing to . . . suddenly my brain hurts trying to grasp this.

It’s not very hard to understand. The sylvari are not gender-neutral. There are males and females. With regards to their sexuality it is indiscriminate.

Some fall in love with each other, another race, same gender, different gender…

The sylvari are not able to reproduce of themselves, like humans or asura might for example. Maybe that’s what you meant?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s really hard to try to talk about religion in a fiction not making sense when there is tangible proof in-setting that they actually have a presence and power. In the real world, it’s rather easy to do for people. (Don’t bother debating me on this, I won’t do it.)

In a world where you could in the past seek an audience with the Five Gods and speak to their avatars by showing some sign of respect and offering a small tithe . . .

The same can be said for the Jews and the Christians. Avatars being a pillar of cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night, a guy named Jesus Christ.

Did things no other person or mere mortal could ever accomplish.

All of this is some fairly basic theology and much of it recorded history. Tangible proof of God’s presence and power. Not debating or anything. Just an honest observation.

These faiths are also very exclusive and warn those who would listen that God is going to judge a sinful world for it’s sins.

I’m going to guess that’s why most of the world can’t really stand either Jews or Christians. There’s enough there to make one pause and think, maybe this is true.

And if it is, I’ll need to change, pay attention to all of these things.

The Jews alone make a compelling physical case for their God. Their mere existence defies some impossible odds and irritates many to no end.

The rhetoric is often vile, conspiracy loaded (Jews control the banks, Jews caused 9/11, Jews are the 1%, Jews are Anonymous), just blind irrational hatred.

They can’t even be bothered to be consistent about it.

No other people has been the target of so much hate, so many genocide attempts. Their nation was long dead until about 65 years ago.

No other people has kept their unique identity in such a vast diaspora, let alone their language and unique customs completely intact.

It’s interesting.

Hi everyone,

Just jumping here to ask to, please, try and avoid any kind of real life religions discussions. Remember, this is a game and we are OK with you discussing the religions that happen in the game and how they affect the background of the characters, but try not to attack or judge someone based on their beliefs.

Thanks for your understanding. Please keep this discussion friendly.

CETheLucid.3964:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . what sexuality? They’re gender-neutral and have . . . have nothing to . . . suddenly my brain hurts trying to grasp this.

It’s not very hard to understand. The sylvari are not gender-neutral…

Sorry, I should have been better.

When talking about the race, there is absolutely no reproduction taking place and what little I have found suggests the forms of male/female might as well not matter. In my own . . . personal lexicon, that is “gender neutral”. I should call it “gender irrelevant” but so far this is almost the only case in fiction I ran across.

. . . I still prefer Beta Colony as an example of a place where it’s just plain weird to think about how things happen there. It also makes my head spin a little trying to think too much about it.

What so complicated about this? What the npc said is true. The spirits of the wild don’t answer just any willy wally. There must be a need and importance for them to answer or they will just be a 24hr helpdesk.

As an atheist I actually think religion is pretty interesting. Be it in real life, be it in games. It adds some depth to characters and their actions. (and opens up a whole lot of creative swears…)
Religion also opens up a whole lot of story-material.
Humans taking over Ascalon and the Charr taking it back had quite a lot to do with the gods too if I’m not mistaken.
Also the flame legion and the other legions, it’s once again about religion.

To compare to real life, there have been crusades, wars. (not all pretty, but still interesting) and the whole bible, which is also quite a story.
So yeh. Religion adds in quite a lot of story-material. I’m not saying you can’t write good stories where religion isn’t present. But it adds for a nice backstory imo.

I did not have a lot of time to type my last post (5am, getting ready for work!) so I’d like to expand a little on why religion in GW2 does not affect me. I will not go into my atheist views r/l, as they are very extreme and not fit for this discussion!

Humanity in our world has used religion for pretty much as long as they have been able to think. Religion has many purposes, partly to explain things that cannot be explained by other means (why the sun rises, why the tides ebb and flow etc), partly to galvanise and form community structures and partly for one group to dominate others. The strong dominate the weak, the clever dominate the strong – this is a theme that has been prevalent in religion since there has been religion.

This is where my ‘issue’, if it is that, with religion in GW begins.

The 6 ‘Gods’ are not gods at all. If they have or had any real physical presence, they are physical, perhaps superphysical, but they are not Gods. Gods are completely supernatural, not bound by laws of physics. Their works may be physical, but they themselves are beyond what we would call structurally defined.

In the words of William S. Burroughs: “Consider the impasse of a One-God Universe. He is all-knowing and all-powerful. He cannot go anywhere since he is already everywhere. He cannot do anything since the act of doing pre-supposes opposition. His universe is irrevocably thermodynamic, having no friction by definition.”

I would strongly hesitate at calling anything that can be opposed, defeated, or that would be able to withdraw it’s very essence from the things that it creates, a God. For if, in GW lore, the 6 Gods are meant to have withdrawn, then surely their ‘works’ would also? If the works remain in place, or were present before the Gods appeared then they are not works of God. Hence the term God is completely inappropriate in this instance.

So no, I have no problem with religion in GW2. Because, the religion present (at least in the human line) is not based upon a supernatural deity which I would struggle to believe in or support, but upon superphysical manifestations which are not Gods at all.

I am also atheist but I have no objections to the portrayal of religion in a game, even if it celebrates one over others. If it provides opportunities like getting blessings at shrines, and visiting FoW and UW and gives me magics, then… that’s a good game.

In our real world we have scientific explanations (or at least hypotheses) for almost all phenomena. We can get along perfectly well without religion, and in reality, most people do most of the time. But in a game like this, you have to account for magic and ghosts. Even the Asura call it the “eternal alchemy” not the “eternal chemistry.”

Wanderer.3248:

Many (but not all) members of a certain german political party prominent during WW2, who’s name gets filtered by these forums were atheists, and, of course, very militaristic. And many communists have been atheistic and militaristic – notably Joseph Stalin.

Slight quibble: “Gott mit uns” is not an atheistic slogan. And like Christopher Hitchens used to say, “Stalin should not have been in the dictatorship business if he couldn’t exploit the deep religiosity already present in the country into a worship of himself and the state as godlike.” That’s not really atheism either.

Just popping in to thank the participants in this discussion for being both interesting and respectful. I have no other input.

As an agnostic (/watches all the atheists in the room cringe at the word =D), I think it’s fine that religion is in the game. Religion holds a MAJOR place in the concepts of anthropology, and it’s difficult for us, as humans, to imagine a civilization that didn’t come across or perceive at least the concept of religion at some point. Religion has been used throughout our own history by civilizations that never came in contact with each other before, or at least hadn’t for millions of years, to describe things that the people of the time simply didn’t have the technology to explain. It seems to be an inherent part of our human makeup, regardless of cultural influences. In a world of magic and steampunk tech, why would these humans/human like people be any different?

Now, for many games the religion is a little different in the fact that the beings they pray to are tangible and can actually be interacted with… or at least you can see their real time effects on the world. The spirits that the norn speak of meddled with people all through GW1. You killed one of the human gods in that game, and spoke to some of the others! So, it is rather incomparable to real life, you know?

tl;dr- It makes sense to me. Whether you believe that the target of a religion exists or not is one thing, but is impossible to deny that religions themselves are an integral part of human history and something that is difficult to avoid in ANY civilization. The lack of it would almost be unrealistic.

GuzziHero.2467:

The 6 ‘Gods’ are not gods at all. If they have or had any real physical presence, they are physical, perhaps superphysical, but they are not Gods. Gods are completely supernatural, not bound by laws of physics. Their works may be physical, but they themselves are beyond what we would call structurally defined.

In the words of William S. Burroughs: “Consider the impasse of a One-God Universe. He is all-knowing and all-powerful. He cannot go anywhere since he is already everywhere. He cannot do anything since the act of doing pre-supposes opposition. His universe is irrevocably thermodynamic, having no friction by definition.”

I would strongly hesitate at calling anything that can be opposed, defeated, or that would be able to withdraw it’s very essence from the things that it creates, a God. For if, in GW lore, the 6 Gods are meant to have withdrawn, then surely their ‘works’ would also? If the works remain in place, or were present before the Gods appeared then they are not works of God. Hence the term God is completely inappropriate in this instance.

They are gods, just not in the modern monotheistic (particularly Judeo-Christian) definition.

Plenty of religions in history, particularly polytheistic religions, have had gods that were not omnipotent, omnipresent, or even immortal. They can have physical forms as well, and can be bound by certain physical laws or constraints.

So the Six are gods in the vein of multiple real-world polytheistic religions – they remind me of Greek gods, for instance, in that they have own foibles and character flaws (such as Batlh killing a man in a rage over a board game, then feeling remorse for it). And gods in many religions can be defeated and die – if you’re familiar with the Nordic concept of Ragnarok, many of the gods die in that conflict. So I think the Six are very definitely gods, in the polytheistic definition of very powerful beings, but ones that can potentially be killed and are not all-knowing or all-powerful.

As for the original topic – as many, I think the religious aspects are very important for fleshing out the world and making it feel alive. Religion and faith are an important part of culture and society throughout history, and if a fantasy world ignored it entirely, it would feel fake and unrealistic. Yes, it’s fantasy, but good fantasy is also believable, and creating believable cultures (and thus, the faiths of those cultures) is important to make the world feel alive.

GuzziHero.2467:

The 6 ‘Gods’ are not gods at all. If they have or had any real physical presence, they are physical, perhaps superphysical, but they are not Gods. Gods are completely supernatural, not bound by laws of physics. Their works may be physical, but they themselves are beyond what we would call structurally defined.

IMO, that’s the incorrect definition of a god. A god is anything that people choose to worship. For all we know, Zeus may have been a real guy at some point, and his legend just grew out of control over time. It makes him no less of a god in his religion. There are modern religions that also revere living gods… in fact, one of those gods was born about 10 years ago or so, if I remember correctly. It was all over the news.

There is no definition to what is required to join the god club besides someone worshiping you. If someone, ANYONE, considers you a god, then you are by definition a god.

GuzziHero.2467:

So no, I have no problem with religion in GW2. Because, the religion present (at least in the human line) is not based upon a supernatural deity which I would struggle to believe in or support, but upon superphysical manifestations which are not Gods at all.

I’m not sure I entirely understand why a religion in game must be believable in order to be acceptable. Such a religion would define who your character is in some ways. If you don’t believe in that religion, then wouldn’t your character be an atheist in a very theistic world? That’s a pretty defining attribute, I’d say.

I, personally, see no reason why the game world should be required to work on a different ruleset to this one. There are religions that I don’t believe in at all in this world. I’d be perfectly ok with such unbelievable religions existing in the game world, too.

Tolmos.8395:

I, personally, see no reason why the game world should be required to work on a different ruleset to this one. There are religions that I don’t believe in at all in this world. I’d be perfectly ok with such unbelievable religions existing in the game world, too.

Well, a key difference of the games’ and our worlds religion would certainly be that in tyria, there is lots of proof that the entities in question at least actually exist. There may be dispute about whether they should be worshipped and how, but I would assume that even the fiercest dwayna follower wouldn’t argue that the spirits of the wild just aren’t there.
I don’t know about you, but personally, I’d be a lot more inclined to worship a god if there were a chance to talk to them first. Maybe.

I’ll just leave these here.

I’m an athiest, too. Religion in this game is a fairly good way to add depth to characters and the game itself.

I’m not insulted by it or anything. Besides, religions of odd types are pretty much a trope in fantasy-type games and fantasy literature.

I honestly dont see the problem or really the point of the question at hand. I think you are taking atheism a step further than needed.

It’s a fictional world with actual gods, thats the story of the game. It’s still fiction, there is nothing pro or against the gods and faiths of our own world. There is a need for gods due to the depth of the story. Doesnt matter if its positivity towards the gods or negativity, aslong as it doesnt bash our real world cultures its fine. They can borrow things from our world, thats ok, but do it in a respectful manner.

It opens up options for your character, flavor in skill, depth in story, design of the cities and the world. Without gods we would have no temples really in the same sense.

wintermute.4096:

Tolmos.8395:

I, personally, see no reason why the game world should be required to work on a different ruleset to this one. There are religions that I don’t believe in at all in this world. I’d be perfectly ok with such unbelievable religions existing in the game world, too.

Well, a key difference of the games’ and our worlds religion would certainly be that in tyria, there is lots of proof that the entities in question at least actually exist. There may be dispute about whether they should be worshipped and how, but I would assume that even the fiercest dwayna follower wouldn’t argue that the spirits of the wild just aren’t there.
I don’t know about you, but personally, I’d be a lot more inclined to worship a god if there were a chance to talk to them first. Maybe.

I don’t disagree, though I also still think there is nothing wrong with an in game religion existing that worships a god I will never see. That, to me, is just as true to reality as the idea of a religion worshiping a living god.

Look at it from this way- what about from the perspective of a player who has never played GW1 and never bothered to read up on what happened in it? All they are given is the lore. In that case, would they be as inclined as us to believe in Kormir? I know what she is because I played the story and saw her “ascend” (aka, steal the crap out of Abbadon’s power and run off to be all immortal like). But someone who never played GW1, or read the wiki on it, might say “Kormir was never there. They just made that story up!”. To them, its a religion with a god they will never see or interact with. Yes, that ignorance is their own fault, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is an unbelievable religion to them. In their case, I still see no reason why they would want the religion to not be in the game.

Agree with those who say that religion adds depth to the story and helps to differentiate the groups in the game.

What I find most interesting, however, is that someone named “Holyblesser” is asking why religion is in the game.

Religion is just useful narrative shorthand when creating a fantasy universe.
By implementing a religion, you immediately enable the audience to understand highly complex concepts as they are already familiar with the structures and strictures of organised religion.

You may as well be asking why there are asura or any of the races in the game. Or why is there science in the game? Or magic systems? Or political systems?

Religion in the game is just part of the back story. It provides depth, context, and ‘flesh’ to the game world. All cultures on earth have developed some kind of religion so it makes sense that cultures in another world would develop religion as well.

Tolmos.8395:

GuzziHero.2467:

The 6 ‘Gods’ are not gods at all. If they have or had any real physical presence, they are physical, perhaps superphysical, but they are not Gods. Gods are completely supernatural, not bound by laws of physics. Their works may be physical, but they themselves are beyond what we would call structurally defined.

IMO, that’s the incorrect definition of a god. A god is anything that people choose to worship. For all we know, Zeus may have been a real guy at some point, and his legend just grew out of control over time. It makes him no less of a god in his religion. There are modern religions that also revere living gods… in fact, one of those gods was born about 10 years ago or so, if I remember correctly. It was all over the news.

I can’t help it, I’m sorry.

“Ray . . . if someone asks you if you’re a god, you say YES!”

I, personally, see no reason why the game world should be required to work on a different ruleset to this one. There are religions that I don’t believe in at all in this world. I’d be perfectly ok with such unbelievable religions existing in the game world, too.

There are, mostly around the grawl and the Flame Legion. Balefire is worshipped as a god, and the grawl worship . . . okay, they pretty much go “Cargo Cult” on anything.

Lafiel.9372:

…we have religion thrown at our faces whether we like it or not…

I never understood this line of thinking. It’s not thrown in your face. It’s not meant to make you feel good or bad. It’s not there to prosthelytize. It’s there simply to add another aspect of a particular race’s culture to the story of the game. I don’t like seafood, but I don’t see a Red Lobster and get mad that seafood is being thrown in my face. It’s simply there and I’ll let those that enjoy it to enjoy it and those who don’t eat elsewhere. I don’t get offended if someone orders shrimp kittentail when I order my soup. You can have a debate about whether Xbox or Playstation is better, but you don’t get mad when you see someone playing one or the other. (Awkward analogies but it’s what came to mind, sry)

You can’t argue that throughout history religious beliefs have shaped cultures, incited wars, and been the basis for values. That we have 5 races each with different religious views, from aetheist to polytheistic, gives another level of depth to each race. If religion is in a game, it’s no different than each race having different political hierarchies and methods of rule. Politics and religion. I don’t feel that Anet is throwing a monarchial political system in my face because of Queen Jennah.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I can’t help it, I’m sorry.

“Ray . . . if someone asks you if you’re a god, you say YES!”

Hahaha love that quote!

Tolmos.8395:

IMO, that’s the incorrect definition of a god. A god is anything that people choose to worship. For all we know, Zeus may have been a real guy at some point, and his legend just grew out of control over time. It makes him no less of a god in his religion. There are modern religions that also revere living gods… in fact, one of those gods was born about 10 years ago or so, if I remember correctly. It was all over the news.

There is no definition to what is required to join the god club besides someone worshiping you. If someone, ANYONE, considers you a god, then you are by definition a god.

I’m not sure I entirely understand why a religion in game must be believable in order to be acceptable. Such a religion would define who your character is in some ways. If you don’t believe in that religion, then wouldn’t your character be an atheist in a very theistic world? That’s a pretty defining attribute, I’d say.

I, personally, see no reason why the game world should be required to work on a different ruleset to this one. There are religions that I don’t believe in at all in this world. I’d be perfectly ok with such unbelievable religions existing in the game world, too.

My point is, for something to be a God, it doesn’t have to be believable… it has to be unbelievable, using normal rules of logic. It has to be something that relies completely on faith, or at least leaves few enough hints about it’s true existence or form, for blind faith to fill in the gaps.

If something can be truly explained, can be mortalised or physically manifested, then it does not qualify as a God. Your example of Zeus would make him first a Hero, and then a Myth, once logically impossible acts were added to his legend, but he would never be a God. A God is something that cannot be explained, or quantified, using normal rules of logic. Our feeble human minds do not yet have the capacity to understand fully anything that has no beginning, no end and exists beyond the physical. They probably never will, but that is where Gods find their homes, outside the bounds of true understanding. For this reason, I could never consider anything which has a physical manifestation to be a God.

The group who worship ‘living gods’… well that touches on my extreme atheistic views so I will not go there!

I do not agree with your definition of a God. I can believe in the Celestial Teapot. It does not make this a God. I can believe truly and honestly in the existence of sunlight (in fact, I do!) but it does not make it a god. If anyone believes in me enough to make me comparable to a God… I would refer that person for therapy. It takes a LOT more than belief in a physical object or person to create a God.