Guild Wars 2

I thought DPS loved to tank, trying to overaggro the Tank and all.

Welcome to Guild Wars 2! Where your dreams comes true!

Kailthir.6384:

I disagree with the DPS being the problem with wipes in a traditional MMO. I’t been my expirence that the tank is usually the problem. Not being able to hold agro. If the tank can’t hold agro after 10 seconds, they do not know what they ae doing.

If the tank doesn’t hold aggro over the dps then it is the dps’s fault. if the tank doesn’t hold aggro over the healer then it is the fault of the tank or his lack of gear. The dps always has the option of slowing down to keep aggro under the tank but the tank can only do so much aggro and then he is topped out. either by the limits of gear or the limits of skill. But dps always has the option to adjust output. So unless you hit an enrage timer, it is the responsibility of dps to adjust to the ability of the tank to output aggro.

And you illustrate exactly the kind of dps that is the problem coming into this game. dps that refuses to take any responsibility for their actions and expected to be able to go all out all the time. Well, if you are just going to go all out dps in this game, I hope you stick to trivial mobs.

The holy trinity is still in this game. People that think it isnt are just fanboys and dillusional. You still need beef, heals and cc. It just so happens that everyone can do it but some do it better than others…. allas …. the idea is still there and it should be. You need roles in a game otherwise just let everyone have the same skill sets. Which this game pretty much has.

It was a good idea to try to break the monotony but at the same time they have made the game very Vanilla feeling.

Kailthir.6384:

I disagree with the DPS being the problem with wipes in a traditional MMO. I’t been my expirence that the tank is usually the problem. Not being able to hold agro. If the tank can’t hold agro after 10 seconds, they do not know what they ae doing.

One big flaw with your reasoning.

Assuming equal gear, if a DPS outputs as much DPS as he can, just unloads, and a tank outputs as much threat as he is able, just unloading, DPS threat will ALWAYS over-run tank threat.

That’s the nature of tanks, we cannot hold aggro off someone who is trying to pull it, as DPS can outthreat a tank in equal gear situations.

When the tank reaches his maximum TPS output, then it’s the DPS’s job to stay under that bar.

Very few MMOs have had systems where a tank could inherently out threat a DPS.

I can agree somewhat with the OP, at least see where he is coming from. I love playing healers, even if it means having fail Deeps yell at me when they stood in the fire. I chose GW2 to play for PRECISELY the reason that there is no trinity. I wanted to see what it was like. I can see it rocking in PVP but PVE? I have yet to do a dungeon so I guess Ill find out. I am perfecting a “healing” trait spec for my Engineer however so I can incorporate that role into my gameplay. The way I see, no one is gonna yell at me for their mistakes anymore! lol!

Sounds like you need to get better at this game, so keep practicing. Believe it or not the set up in this game does work, I have completely finished dungeons. The holy trinity didn’t work in other games either if you got bad players.

This game made a bold move to do this and its one of the best things about this game.

Any one can join a party.

Unlike Wow and other games that needed a healer and tank, you didn’t always make the group because wasn’t needed.

Azthioth.9682:

Maybe having it back in the form that we all know it is the bad idea, but why not let every class tank, heal, and dps as they choose?

No more we need a tank since everyone can tank. No need to a healer cause everyone can heal. It’s the mass chaos that bothers me. There is no real challenge other than patience.

This doesn’t fix the actual, complained problem about the Trinity, which was grouping. WoW 5s require one Healer, one Tank, 3 DPS. Thing is, player populations are rarely a 1/5 : 1/5 : 3/5 split. In terms of HTD, it’s more like 1/10: 1/25 : 43/50. Remember Dungeon Finder queues in WoW? Or LFG 1 Tank <insert raid here>?

In terms of gameplay, the trinity isn’t actually bad; heck, I’m a long-time healer in virtually every other MMO I’ve played. However, in an MMO situation, the spread of the playerbase that chooses to fulfill the minority roles is usually completely out of whack with the game-defined ratios.

Slither Shade.4782:

It always seemed to me that the monsters were pretty stupid to be so easily tricked into focusing the tank. Good riddence.

They aren’t easily tricked. Being a good tank was a very very challenging job, as you usually did less damage than dps but had to keep the threat up with taunts and shouts or something similar.

I have enjoyed this game very much and since its free will come back to it again over and over, but I have to agree with OP the dungeons are not fun for me currently.

With the holy trinity the ones who work is the tank and healer. With a good tank the healer never gets targeted and the dps just pew pew everything until the mob is down, never in danger unless the healer isnt paying attention.

And jumping out of the glowing floor, is only a challenge for mentally impaired people.

Here you will have a lot of trouble if you have a glass cannon character.

If you’re not prepared to pull your weight and encourage your allies to do the same, then you’re not going to get much enjoyment out of the game. There’s a steep learning curve, but that is definitely preferable to watching a boss endlessly hammer on the same target whilst everyone else stays at a distance and moves occasionally. I much prefer Arena Net’s choice and commend them for an enjoyable experience.

On a side note, what’s with people asking for core game design points to be changed?

I think may complain because PvE feels more like PvP with the random-ish Aggro Table. PvE’rs like control. Controlling who the mob hits, how much damage they should do, When the damage will come. This game doesn’t have that and its scary for some.

Fillet.6840:

I think may complain because PvE feels more like PvP with the random-ish Aggro Table. PvE’rs like control. Controlling who the mob hits, how much damage they should do, When the damage will come. This game doesn’t have that and its scary for some.

qft

I think part of the problem is that few people spec for anything other than pure dps, since pure dps is the most efficient way to level. I would love to spec for better heals or better support, but not at the cost of kittening myself in solo play.

We need a dual spec or even tri spec system.

Phy.2913:

I think part of the problem is that few people spec for anything other than pure dps, since pure dps is the most efficient way to level. I would love to spec for better heals or better support, but not at the cost of kittening myself in solo play.

We need a dual spec or even tri spec system.

I played all the way to 80 with mostly defensive/support traits.

Honestly, the worst part about the trinity was the fact that you couldn’t transition roles without rerolling. The class chokepoint for end-game was frustrating as hell.

Guild Wars 2 differs in that every class can adopt every relevant role with appropriate gearing and speccing. Right now, people are sort of fixed with one set of gear so there is a general lack of players with truly flexible gear, but as time goes along, you’re going to see people with completely adaptable layouts.

Apathy.6430:

Phy.2913:

I think part of the problem is that few people spec for anything other than pure dps, since pure dps is the most efficient way to level. I would love to spec for better heals or better support, but not at the cost of kittening myself in solo play.

We need a dual spec or even tri spec system.

I played all the way to 80 with mostly defensive/support traits.

Would it have been faster and more efficient to use power/precision traits? I know that would be the case with my engi.

Phy.2913:

Apathy.6430:

Phy.2913:

I think part of the problem is that few people spec for anything other than pure dps, since pure dps is the most efficient way to level. I would love to spec for better heals or better support, but not at the cost of kittening myself in solo play.

We need a dual spec or even tri spec system.

I played all the way to 80 with mostly defensive/support traits.

Would it have been faster and more efficient to use power/precision traits? I know that would be the case with my engi.

Don’t know, but that would only be relevant if it was some kind of race.

im not blinded by fanboyism OP. their dungeon set up is horrid. no other word to describe. Seems like no thought went into it at all.

frOst.2198:

im not blinded by fanboyism OP. their dungeon set up is horrid. no other word to describe. Seems like no thought went into it at all.

You mean you cant make it through?

Fillet.6840:

I think may complain because PvE feels more like PvP with the random-ish Aggro Table. PvE’rs like control. Controlling who the mob hits, how much damage they should do, When the damage will come. This game doesn’t have that and its scary for some.

Indeed, I myself don’t like the current threat system.

Amra.6028:

You mean you cant make it through?

Looks like he hit a nerve, and I agree with him.

I’ve played holy trinity games, specifically the obvious one. I hated tanking, loved healing, and hardly bothered on my damage characters because, well… you never get in and everyone else can do your job, probably better. Now I can do whatever I want with my characters as long as it works. I like it a lot better. Being a straight up healer was fun – but only if the tank wasn’t a horrible failure, and that was about half the time. Put it this way: holy trinity makes you super dependent on other people do be able to do your own job half right, which causes more problems than it solves. Plus, only two of the holy trinity are “important”.

Viking.1950:

If the tank doesn’t hold aggro over the dps then it is the dps’s fault… The dps always has the option of slowing down to keep aggro under the tank but the tank can only do so much aggro and then he is topped out.

Whaaat. Ok, so, I played a human warrior for five years on and off, and I did a LOT of freaking Heroic dungeons in wrath and cata. My “option of slowing down” was to literally TURN AROUND and stop being useful for up to twenty seconds. How the heck is tanking not the job of the tank? I’m guessing you must have played a half rate one, because my friend I play with was a tank less geared than me as a dps, and I never pulled off him.

ah, the holy trinity, where a boss want to kill the dude poking him with a tooth pick and saying mean things to him, but ignores the people in the back throwing nuclear weapons at him -.-

I hate it personally. It feels unfocused.

Azthioth.9682:

Maybe having it back in the form that we all know it is the bad idea, but why not let every class tank, heal, and dps as they choose?

Kind of like what Rift tried and while it worked to an extent there because the game was pretty much totally PvE focused, seems like it would be impossible to balance in a highly PvP focused game like this.

Its just spammy DPS. And whats more they can only do so much with the dungeon content to make it interesting. Most of it revolves around dodging all the spammy one shot abilities mobs have. If they try to do something elaborate with the content it just becomes too hard and turns into a spawn n zerg fest.

Golgathoth.3967:

Viking.1950:

If the tank doesn’t hold aggro over the dps then it is the dps’s fault… The dps always has the option of slowing down to keep aggro under the tank but the tank can only do so much aggro and then he is topped out.

Whaaat. Ok, so, I played a human warrior for five years on and off, and I did a LOT of freaking Heroic dungeons in wrath and cata. My “option of slowing down” was to literally TURN AROUND and stop being useful for up to twenty seconds. How the heck is tanking not the job of the tank? I’m guessing you must have played a half rate one, because my friend I play with was a tank less geared than me as a dps, and I never pulled off him.

I used to play tanks during MMO’s and While I stopped playing wow a long time ago, I did play cata for a decent while before I got bored. But tanking was very very easy, specially as a death knight. I never had issues with it.

What I had issues with as a tank was Lack of healing. Plenty of healers do not know how to keep a tank topped off and when they NEED to be topped off. Then when the Tank dies, and the Boss is taking out dps, tank gets a Brez and DPS just keeps doing full damage while the tank is taunting like crazy, battling his cooldowns and kittens to get the aggro back.

Course if you still fail. its always the tanks fault. It is an ungrateful job, but it was somewhat fun if you had a good party or guild.

I remember back in the LK era where I would tank with one hand on my DK. Those was the good old days cause I could tank while eating and watching YouTube at the same time. Now gw2, that gets all my attention. Can only eat before or after the fight. But hey at least I’m not bored.

I completely agree. It’s a good thing the pvp in this game is so good, because dungeons are incredibly poorly designed. There’s a reason the trinity has existed so long. There is nothing good about the “Chaos”. Maybe it’s fine for some but I could never take this game seriously at high end.

faintsmile.4692:

I completely agree. It’s a good thing the pvp in this game is so good, because dungeons are incredibly poorly designed. There’s a reason the trinity has existed so long. There is nothing good about the “Chaos”. Maybe it’s fine for some but I could never take this game seriously at high end.

Sounds like your loss.

I’m thoroughly enjoying running explorable modes with pugs.

Got me where people are getting their groups, but for the groups I have come across it’s the same thing as it was with the holy trinity. Now it’s , we need 2 tank/warriors, 2 range and 2 casters. Theives are not even wanted in most groups, those that don’t follow this build complain about dying to much. Each time I join a group like this that has the casters support healing the dps and back and forth, with hunters plucking at range and heals along with the tanks , it’s a win win. Any other group usually ends up in a faliure and people yelling at each other for not working togather.

Mind you, this might be a bit different in guilds, but alas as a general group deal (that seems this posting is all about and the trinity factor effect) , this is pretty much now the norm and what? we are 1 month into game release?

I argue the trinity is full well and alive, the only difference in guild wars 2 and other MMO’s are concerned is no dedicated healer. Tanks, CC and dps abound! So take out one class and that = no trinity? Meh, if you ask me, bring the healers into the game and wala , trinity, right now it’s just mages that become the healers. Only thing this has done is kittened mage play and made surviavibilty that much more difficult. Let’s not even get started on the “under water adventure” and the bugs that bring to the game.

Apathy.6430:

faintsmile.4692:

I completely agree. It’s a good thing the pvp in this game is so good, because dungeons are incredibly poorly designed. There’s a reason the trinity has existed so long. There is nothing good about the “Chaos”. Maybe it’s fine for some but I could never take this game seriously at high end.

Sounds like your loss.

I’m thoroughly enjoying running explorable modes with pugs.

If I don’t enjoy it, then what exactly am I losing by not doing it?

faintsmile.4692:

Apathy.6430:

faintsmile.4692:

I completely agree. It’s a good thing the pvp in this game is so good, because dungeons are incredibly poorly designed. There’s a reason the trinity has existed so long. There is nothing good about the “Chaos”. Maybe it’s fine for some but I could never take this game seriously at high end.

Sounds like your loss.

I’m thoroughly enjoying running explorable modes with pugs.

If I don’t enjoy it, then what exactly am I losing by not doing it?

Armor and weapon skins. And that warm, fuzzy feeling of having just blasted through a harrowing adventure with four friends.

Remove the holy trinity and what do you get?

You get GW2 of course.

Azthioth, quit being butthurt over wiping in a dungeon because you don’t understand it. There are ways to do them that are structured. I went in with a group of guildies using vent and, with communication, we had a very structured strategy that took us through Sorrow’s Embrace whilst taking on 5+ elites at once. Sure, some of us would go down every so often, but that’s why you have someone come and help pick you back up onto your feet. It’s a fairly simple concept; work together using utilities that will mitigate mob’s damage whilst everyone dps’ the mobs down. Throw out support when needed and use crowd control to your advantage. That golem is charging up his ranged volley attack? Get a guardian/mesmer to use a skill that reflects it right back at itself for massive damage.

This is a thinking game that goes far beyond the simplistic boring concept of Tank, Healer, and DPS. Learn to play it or just stop complaining and go play a new game. This game isn’t meant to have the holy trinity, and it never will have it. You’re arguements are completely moot and they prove nothing besides the fact you’re only acting as an individual in dungeons, not as a team player.

@OP … learn 2 play thats all i can say dodge use your skills and traits wisely and don’t try playing like you did in WoW and your OK.

I dare saying that you belong to group thats leaving a group after 2 deaths, i hope you all leave soon those who keep trying to force Arenanet making GW2 more like the avarage mmo’s WoW and hundreds of other mmo’s who have same trinity.

I love the challenge and dying is part of this get use to this or leave i don’t wanne hear your crying and whines anymore sick and tired of this

Guild Wars 2 Forever!!!

Bah you guys are full of it, this game is so the holy trinity without a healer. The same tactics used in WoW and other games are used here. Don’t try to make it seem like these dungeons are some new holy concept. Once figured out they are like all others, tank, dps, heal, cc. The only differance here is no healer so the casters usually fill in with that along with insta rez. Funny, casters get insta rez ability choices wonder why? Anyways, OP has a good point , you might not agree, but at least come back with some actual legit suggestions. Geez.

You see what happens when you remove their automated user interface ? :p

OMFG this game sucks it doesnt spam my screen with caps when i have to heal myself or a teamate it does not tell me when i have to run out of boss aoe too .. OMFG !!!!!!

/sarcasm off

Locking this thread as the discussion has derailed and gone off-topic.