Guild Wars 2

Absolute chaos.

This is supposed to be better? No order, no cc, crazy mobs with never ending cc running around all over the place randomly picking targets,kitten npc’s, and this is freedom?

How is dying over and over just to respawn to go back to the same fight challenging? It is just chain rezzing and chain respawning. I was expecting so much more from this, but in truth the dungeons are horrible.

I know you can jump on skype and try to chain your cc’s together but that will not stop a ranger from kicking your entire team 20 times in 1 fight because there is no solid cc.

The holy trinity was there for a reason. It worked. It gave order and an accepted challenge for each roll to accomplish. I don’t mind innovative thinking or trying new things, but it was just ridiculous. I would even say we had a good group and we did complete the dungeon, but it was even worse than any other mmo dungeon I have played.

Maybe I am missing something, but I will take my holy trinity back any day. Good thing this game is spot in for questing and pvp.

And the chaos is glorious…

Plus I don’t have to wait for hours to get into a group, only to have them kick me out just because I don’t fit into their precious mold of a specific build.

Blasted DOA PUGs…. MY BUILD WORKED DANG YOU!!!!

Sorry, still a bit bitter over that.

Azthioth.9682:

Absolute chaos.

This is supposed to be better? No order, no cc, crazy mobs with never ending cc running around all over the place randomly picking targets,kitten npc’s, and this is freedom?

How is dying over and over just to respawn to go back to the same fight challenging? It is just chain rezzing and chain respawning. I was expecting so much more from this, but in truth the dungeons are horrible.

I know you can jump on skype and try to chain your cc’s together but that will not stop a ranger from kicking your entire team 20 times in 1 fight because there is no solid cc.

The holy trinity was there for a reason. It worked. It gave order and an accepted challenge for each roll to accomplish. I don’t mind innovative thinking or trying new things, but it was just ridiculous. I would even say we had a good group and we did complete the dungeon, but it was even worse than any other mmo dungeon I have played.

Maybe I am missing something, but I will take my holy trinity back any day. Good thing this game is spot in for questing and pvp.

Holy trinity blows.

Just because YOU like it, doesn’t mean it’s all that great’. It’s what people are used to, and it’s why people continue to complain. This game isn’t about the holy trinity and hopefully it never will be.

There are plenty of games that cater to your holy trinity needs.

That wasn’t meant to sound rude. >_>

Who wants to wait around for mo’s or tanks or particular builds, and that’s where all elitism extends from. GW1 was hideous in that regard.

Good riddance to the Holy Trinity. Finally an MMORPG that goes back to the roots of well, (MMO) RPGs. It isn’t D&D, it isn’t Ultima Online, but at least it doesn’t have the useless Holy Trinity that only caters to the generation of gamers that doesn’t know what it is to really play a game, an MMORPG at that.

Maybe having it back in the form that we all know it is the bad idea, but why not let every class tank, heal, and dps as they choose?

No more we need a tank since everyone can tank. No need to a healer cause everyone can heal. It’s the mass chaos that bothers me. There is no real challenge other than patience.

The Holy Trinity isn’t necessarily needed, I do agree with you saying that the dungeons are not fun and end-game events are not challenging and frankly no fun.

Remove the “holy trinity” and what do you get?
ABSOLUTE AWESOME.

For reference there ARE tanking abilities.
There ARE healing abilities.
There ARE crowd control abilities.

Just because you don’t use them does not mean that they don’t exist.

You DO know that you can dodge attacks and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can block attack and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can kite mobs and get hit less often right?
You DO know that pretty much every class has ranged weapons available to it right?

From your post it sounds like you are a “dps” and trying to run in and face tank everything on your own. You are expecting others to “tank” for you and “heal” you. Take a few minutes to read what your class can do. Pretty much every class has a “tanky” and “support/healing” option available to it.

Rather than blaming the game for not working how you want it to, why don’t you take the time to learn to play the game?

It always seemed to me that the monsters were pretty stupid to be so easily tricked into focusing the tank. Good riddence.

I haven’t found this to happen unless people were under geared and had no clue what was going on.

Players that understand how to use their characters and dodge can go all day with light healing.

You’re definitely missing something and by the sounds of it, grouping up with complete scrubs.

It shouldn’t be chaos, no wonder why you’re constantly dying. You need proper tactics and good team work (at least in explorables). There is not one strategy for all mobs, you need to adapt to the situation. I’m not going to sit here and tell you what to do, I’ll let you figure it out.

What I will suggest is that you find a good guild and start playing with an organised group. That’s a start.

The removal of the Holy Trinity is interesting for PVP but not so much for PVE especially the concept of tanking, there should definitely be a tanking spec for some of the classes with the ability to hold aggro. Also i don’t know if Anet tested their dungeons enough to notice that they are horrible boring and unbalanced, forcing everyone to go ranged and dodge some random aoe, some bosses you don’t even have to do the dodging thing, like that last one from TA explorable that is a giant tree thing , you basically stand there shooting your ranged weapon until it dies, how is that fun at all?

illgot.1056:

I haven’t found this to happen unless people were under geared and had no clue what was going on.

Players that understand how to use their characters and dodge can go all day with light healing.

There is always someone who never sees or has any problems and that person i never believe.

You can blag on about dodging, but I personally do not believe anyone who says they dodge most attacks. It is not possible. You have 4 mobs randomly selecting someone to shoot. First their animation are too small to see and secondly, you have no idea what direction to look because they are just running around doing as they please.

The point is not that it is not doable. It is that there is no order and that most strats revolve around chain rezzing and running back into the fight before it resets.

And even more to the point is that it is supposed to be the amazing new way of doing dungeons, but instead It is literally just a wow dungeon with all threat removed and a dodge added.

The Holy Trinity wasn’t a challenge either. The only ones who had maybe a slight bit of challenge was the Tank and the Healer (Depending on which MMO we are comparing them too). Most cases like World of Warcraft, Tanking is a Joke, and Healing was hard if the mentally handicapped DD (dps for ya new school gamer’s) wouldn’t stay out of the fire. Now you have the mentally handicapped that still wont stay out of the fire but have no one to keep them alive.

Most groups I have seen consisted of pure DD roles. These are where the biggest complaints are coming from. No structure, no anything. It’s amazing that in a full Guild Run with Classes that Spec Support, Melee that build Tank heavy (I don’t mean Tank as the guy who sits in front and holds the lame AI while the DD smash 2 buttons over and over) and people who know what endurance is and know WHEN to dodge how smoothly things can go. Communication and more then face tanking is needed for these dungeons.

Sure, I will be the first to admit some things need tweaking, but I find it is mostly people that PUG that are having the issues. Which sorry to say I am happy to see a game that punishes pugging. Although I am biased as I refuse to PUG as a good % of the people I have ever met in my 11 years of gaming have been terrible or refuse to listen to direction.

tldr: The Holy Trinity wasn’t challenging except for the healer trying to keep the challenged DD (dps) alive, because they were too stupid not to stand in the <insert damage type here>

Azthioth.9682:

I am going to assume you are joking, twelve, or completely misguided.

As you said, all these abilities are there. but none of them are good enough to be used efficiently at all. Why do I care i have tanking abilities if there is no tank and have to use them at random? Why have healing abilities when they are not nearly enough? Why even bother with healing when one of the rangers gets on you and cc’s you for 5 sec while draining your health? Just let people chain rez.

The point is that this is just a mess inside the dungeon. No order at all. Trinity gave us order and a logical challenge. This is not a challenge. It is a shooting barrel with fish that are really hard to kill.

But that’s just it.
If your not using your abilities efficiently thats a problem with the player, not the game.
If you are “randomly using abilities” that is a problem with the player, not the game.
If your not healing yourslef that is a problem with the player, not the game.
If your not communicating with the rest of the group to work out skills and strategies thats ….you guessed it…a problem with the player, not the game.
There is challenge-a-plenty because you need to use tactics and synergies with the other players and WORK TOGETHER to overcome the obsticles in the dungeons.

And thats just it. People want to shoot fish in a barrel, they expect tank-n-spank and that just does not exist here.

Its easier to blame the game for the “problems” that it is to blame yourself for not being a good player.

I will state that AC (ascalon catacombs) was a total clusterkitten. Its the first dungeon, its quite challenging, you get a bunch of new people that have no real clue what they are doing (eg, don’t weapon swap, dont change out skills for different fights, dont dodge, dont heal themself, dont rez etc etc).

After that dungeons are a BLAST to play.

The holy trinity isn’t needed. People can breeze through dungeons, if they know how to play their class and know their role inside the dungeon. I’m thankful they removed it, I laugh mykitten off when I see in the map chat, people specifically trying find guardians, when other classes are more useful. Like the thief, because of it’s mobility and control. Or Mesmer too, because of their utilities. ETC.

HoukaKetsueki.6924:

The holy trinity isn’t needed. People can breeze through dungeons, if they know how to play their class and know their role inside the dungeon. I’m thankful they removed it, I laugh mykitten off when I see in the map chat, people specifically trying find guardians, when other classes are more useful. Like the thief, because of it’s mobility and control. Or Mesmer too, because of their utilities. ETC.

problem is anet kind of gave this false image that you can do this stuff with any spec/class and thats not the truth at all… each class NEEDS a certain spec to do it thus…getting people run into the dungeon get owned and are now confused as to why. Now even when they realize it…spec…gear…everything is wrong and have to go grind gold to fix it…and then find others are on skype so they can coordinate a group effort and even then…many bosses have to be zerged down do to the one shot mechanics in game.

I don’t think needs to be a holy trinity, D&D has never used a tank/spank menatality and its worked fine(DM can intelligently make enemies attack whoever) but are also mechanics in game to protect, buff, disable, and stop enemy from doing just that, additionally are plenty of restoration items and spells to keep the party alive…

GW2 tried to make there game like D&D but left out all core mechanics make it work.

Failsociety.4569:

The Holy Trinity wasn’t a challenge either. The only ones who had maybe a slight bit of challenge was the Tank and the Healer (Depending on which MMO we are comparing them too). Most cases like World of Warcraft, Tanking is a Joke, and Healing was hard if the mentally handicapped DD (dps for ya new school gamer’s) wouldn’t stay out of the fire. Now you have the mentally handicapped that still wont stay out of the fire but have no one to keep them alive.

Most groups I have seen consisted of pure DD roles. These are where the biggest complaints are coming from. No structure, no anything. It’s amazing that in a full Guild Run with Classes that Spec Support, Melee that build Tank heavy (I don’t mean Tank as the guy who sits in front and holds the lame AI while the DD smash 2 buttons over and over) and people who know what endurance is and know WHEN to dodge how smoothly things can go. Communication and more then face tanking is needed for these dungeons.

Sure, I will be the first to admit some things need tweaking, but I find it is mostly people that PUG that are having the issues. Which sorry to say I am happy to see a game that punishes pugging. Although I am biased as I refuse to PUG as a good % of the people I have ever met in my 11 years of gaming have been terrible or refuse to listen to direction.

tldr: The Holy Trinity wasn’t challenging except for the healer trying to keep the challenged DD (dps) alive, because they were too stupid not to stand in the <insert damage type here>

I disagree with the DPS being the problem with wipes in a traditional MMO. I’t been my expirence that the tank is usually the problem. Not being able to hold agro. If the tank can’t hold agro after 10 seconds, they do not know what they ae doing.

But this game does not use the unholy trinity, so it’s irrevelent. Some of the best groups I have ever been in were PUGs. Nothing wrong with them. Maybe you just had bad expirences in the past and are unlucky. Or maybe i am just lucky.

I think what would would be a great tool to add, is an ingame voice server. Use it to corrdinate things. (as far as I know, there isn’t one). Would make dungeons and other fights/exploration etc go more smoothly.

It’s good that they gave every class DPS, so those who want to go without tanks, healers, etc., can do so, and aren’t forced to wait for support to go hunting.

It’s not good that they took away the option for the rest of us who prefer a definite rôle in a group as tank, healer, bard, etc.

I never liked the Unholy Trinity in MMOs because I found the main tank, healer and dps classes to be one-dimensional and boring to play.

However, I do not like Anet’s take on Dungeoning in GW2, they had the opportunity to make anything of Dungeons but ended up turning it into a very horrible grindy tokenfest experience with Dungeons I hated in exploration mode. There is no way in hell I am going to grind out the tokens for the gear, I’d rather drink battery acid yet I am a dungeon fan in most MMOs.

Sadly, I found getting the pirate’s treasure in Lion’s Arch to be more of an adventure than anything found in the dungeons I have seen, and I stopped going to them after the third of fourth one because I had already seen the pattern evident in their design.

I don’t like being super negative about the feedback, so will give some pro-active ideas about what I think would have worked much better with the GW2 player model.

Rather than have over-the-top bosses who seem to one shot a lot of players most of the time in average level of gear with area effect melee abilities that are not given any indication for melee to avoid, I would rather see dungeon hacks be dungeon hacks.

These can range from events such as defending a position in scripted events to having timed events to reach from point A to point B within a certain time period while having to wade through wave after wave of mobs. Normal mobs should still be the norm, but there should be boat loads of them, with vets being lieutenants and now and then face a champion, who might get support from lots of normal mobs in waves.

The combat was just not designed for someone to take a beating from one massively hard hitting mob, so why just fill dungeons with these kind of encounters? Melee is dead in dungeons.

You know some wonderful exploration dungeon, one with a lot of traps and puzzle solving and decision making and just wading through mobs would have been fun. Graveyard zerging = not fun. Getting one-shot in a durable class, gear and spec = ridiculously not fun.

Challenge is awesome, but it has to be fun challenge. As it is people will grind what they want and never go back. These should be awesome fun even if you don’t want anything.

Personally I think the game offers a lot in terms of teamwork that can more then make up for the trinity. Instead of having a tank and a healer working in synergy so that others dont die you get everyone working together so that no one dies.

There are plenty of skills that mitigate and reflect damage and their are plenty of skills then enhance various damage types.

If you cover each other your survivability increase by a lot! Weaken enemies, reflect projectiles, block attacks, blind enemies, set retaliation boon, interrupt, push back, cripple, regeneration,fear,protection,stability can all increase your allies survivability while at the same time in most cases reduce the enemy’s life in the process.

On the other hand you can provide your allies with boons too, might, fury, swiftness and vigor can all enable your allies to finish the fight quicker by making more damage and be able to engage in and out of combat quickly.

Your choice of armor and traits can make each of these aspects more effective as well.

For me removing the trinity didnt remove these aspects from the game at all, on the contrary it made them available to everyone on every race and class. The only thing is to keep in mind that group content is group content and a group is meant to work together. If you do you can be still be as effective trinity or no trinity

I can’t say I haven’t been to a dungeon yet, but i found that spamming your moves is useless. It makes combat much harder. Just because you can use it and it does damage doesn’t mean you should use to get that damage.

I mostly play Warrior and Mesmer. My warrior often goes sword and board. “2” leaps into combat. Great to get in close fast. “4” will stun the opponent, “5” makes me invincible for 3 seconds. I also have two dodges. I also can swap to a different weapon like the 2 handed hammer(which has a knock down and knock back). If I spam through all of these attacks I will end up doing some good dps, but I can get swarmed by many opponents or lose to a single strong opponent. With proper planning of the effects these two weapons set’s offer I can often mitigate so much damage. I just need to pay attention to what the enemy is doing. If it looks like a strong attack I interrupt with any of the multitudes of options. When I’m in the zone combat is not chaotic at all. It’s clean, elegant and just plane awesome.

I could go on with my Mesmer, but she has all sorts of abilities to distract, condition, damage and avoid damage. Heck the sword makes you invincible for 3 seconds while delivering a series of attacks. The torch will give a condition and make you invisible for 3 seconds. Then explode doing an AOE burn damage. Pop chaos storm or an ally drop an combo starter and the mesmer is doing all sorts stuff on the enemy. add that that every can do all sorts of stuff. it’s just nuts.

This is game that requires studying to a play style, not maxing out the DPS. I’ve used a great sword awesome dps weapon, but in return I’m likely going to take more damage.

How often will this come up? No, it is not necessarily chaos and not necessarily throwing your carcasses at enemies – do not blame the game mechanics for your unwillingness to accept them and sticking to your playstyle from other games. Would you log on to a fps server and complain there your Super Mario jumping skills are not working? Certainly not. GW2 is its own game.

There may be a way to make a better system than holy trinity. But gw2 system sure isn’t. It’s too random. Random is the oposite of skill.

They give you options, that’s all. You choose how to play and other peoples too, what looks like is that you want to force other people to play your way or the way you think is the best or right. You are deadly wrong, let people play the way they want with the build they want, etc… There’s no chaos, it’s just different and not a sistematic thing.
Plus you still can have “roles” just build yourkittenbuild right and talk with your friends to organize yourselves.
For me its working fine, better than ANY other mmo I ever have played.
I think you are using your personal taste, and that’s ok, just do not, never, think its the “truth”.

Well they didn’t actually remove it. They just blurred the picture a little and made classes more similar. Some people like it, I personally don’t.

There’s no chaos, just bad dps players who only know how to get carried by other players, really you just cant do anything yourselves, and puting you all together in a dungeon well god save you

Azthioth.9682:

How is dying over and over just to respawn to go back to the same fight challenging? It is just chain rezzing and chain respawning. I was expecting so much more from this, but in truth the dungeons are horrible.

I know you can jump on skype and try to chain your cc’s together but that will not stop a ranger from kicking your entire team 20 times in 1 fight because there is no solid cc.

I would even say we had a good group and we did complete the dungeon, but it was even worse than any other mmo dungeon I have played.

Maybe I am missing something, but I will take my holy trinity back any day. Good thing this game is spot in for questing and pvp.

I like how you say that “we had a good group and we did complete the dungeon”, yet you also said that you guys are just chain rezzing/respawning.
Which is the complete opposite of being a “good group”, it’s not because you & your team has to use that mechanic to finish a dungeon (be happy you could do it, otherwise you clearly would complain about it being too hard) that the dungeons are not challenging.

Solid cc’s are some of the most ridiculous things in a PvE environment, casting X spell each 10-15 seconds to keep one mob entirely out of a fight (or casting X spell more often for a smaller duration CC with basicly no cd) = hard and challenging ?
Ahhahahaha good one.

The fact of the matter is, the holy trinity was inferior because everyone had their role and only that role, and bad players love that since it gives them the ability to blame others for a wipe due to their bad performance of said role.

You need to pay attention and use defensive abilities / dodge roll out of danger like a “tank” would.
So if you die now, yes it’s hard to go: " QQ tank L2HOLD aggro / i got cleaved because of noob tank"

You need to be able to keep yourself alive with a heal/regen and in most cases you need a condition remover like a “healer” would.
So yes you also can’t go: “Heal me heal me heal me, noob healer kick him”

In the end every profession is able to have a full or semi support build, either with boons or regen for the group or cc’s or all of the above.

In previous MMO’s ive done it all on different characters, now i do it all on one character.
I dont see how that could be a bad thing, unless your a bad player that can’t blame the healer/tank anymore so they blame the devs (decisions) instead.

Azthioth.9682:

Echo.7634:

Remove the “holy trinity” and what do you get?
ABSOLUTE AWESOME.

For reference there ARE tanking abilities.
There ARE healing abilities.
There ARE crowd control abilities.

Just because you don’t use them does not mean that they don’t exist.

You DO know that you can dodge attacks and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can block attack and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can kite mobs and get hit less often right?
You DO know that pretty much every class has ranged weapons available to it right?

From your post it sounds like you are a “dps” and trying to run in and face tank everything on your own. You are expecting others to “tank” for you and “heal” you. Take a few minutes to read what your class can do. Pretty much every class has a “tanky” and “support/healing” option available to it.

Rather than blaming the game for not working how you want it to, why don’t you take the time to learn to play the game?

I am going to assume you are joking, twelve, or completely misguided.

As you said, all these abilities are there. but none of them are good enough to be used efficiently at all. Why do I care i have tanking abilities if there is no tank and have to use them at random? Why have healing abilities when they are not nearly enough? Why even bother with healing when one of the rangers gets on you and cc’s you for 5 sec while draining your health? Just let people chain rez.

The point is that this is just a mess inside the dungeon. No order at all. Trinity gave us order and a logical challenge. This is not a challenge. It is a shooting barrel with fish that are really hard to kill.

I think you need to research the game more. The more you play the more you start to understand how to adapt your build . There is healing wells, weakness aoes etc. Combo fields which can blind mobs or weaken them, shield abilities. Eles and engies have some pretty darn good healing.

The trinity is basically there its just there isn’t a set class that is forced to do it and there is no threat. Everyone has to have a bit of self reliance and I think that is infinitely more challenging then playing health bar tag or just pressing taunt while everyone unloads dmg. How is that challenging for anyone but the tank and healer, and even for them its pretty easy in most mmos to hold aggro and cast heals on grid.

I’ve had dungeons as smooth as butter with ele’s stacking healing power and guards and warriors using shields and thief’s using blinds. There is actually organization to the chaos its just people haven’t figured it out yet for the most part. I think the older the game gets the more you will see people calling for optimal dungeon builds for all the classes.

Azthioth.9682:

illgot.1056:

I haven’t found this to happen unless people were under geared and had no clue what was going on.

Players that understand how to use their characters and dodge can go all day with light healing.

There is always someone who never sees or has any problems and that person i never believe.

Yeah, I mean, he can not be doing something right you aren’t doing right… you can’t be wrong, that’s impossible ;-)

What I (and several guildies) noticed is that there’s a world of difference in dungeons between the average PuG with people running around like headless chicken nuking things, and an organized guild group.

Chaos is much more fun than “LFM healer and tank” hour after hour. And if you happen to play tank or healer then there is allways at least one team member who “knows” tanking/healer better than you.

HOLY TRINITY IS DEAD!!! CHAOS WON!

I am sorry but its random if players make it random. Every skills is useful in certain situations and you’ll be effective if you leverage that, ineffective if you just use skills at random!

So yeah random is the opposite of skill but there is nothing random in gw2 combat!

kal.4350:

There may be a way to make a better system than holy trinity. But gw2 system sure isn’t. It’s too random. Random is the oposite of skill.

no, it is not, even if it were real chaos – which it is not. unpredictable situations force you to adapt on the fly – certainly more skill than having a dedicated player standing in front of a 2 screen high monster for 15 minutes, being targeted by another guy hitting keys 1-4 for 15 minutes, and having a row of various casters, backstabbers and what not standing behind the monster for, you guessed it, 15 minutes. Seriously, I do not intend this to be a personal attack, an insult or whatever and I also do not want to lose anet customers, but there are hundreds of games out there that still work exactly in this way. Play them, just play them and revel in Trinity glory. Stop trying to grind one of the very few MMORPG that are currently different into the mashed potato mass that the MMORPG market is.

Trinity? No. Horrid system. It had its benefits, but they were simply to dictate a playstyle, 1x Tank, 1x Healer, 2x DPS – do this or dont play. Cant get a good tank? Dont play.

As for ‘chaos and random’, I would partially agree with you at the start of the game when players were still getting to grips with the characters and their abilities. Now people are becoming experienced, the skill is coming through more. I now look at a players class, and what weapon they are wielding, and know a little better what they are capable of and how their skills will play out, so we can better work as a team.

You know what? Why don’t we all just cover ourselves in jam and go back to WoW.

This kind of refusal in attitude to move on from a system that is so entrenched (and to be honest, BORING) is exactly the same reason why there’s a new CoD game every year.

Yeah I really have to debate this. I do die a lot in dungeons- but thats because my group is testing the boss. We change our build to take on different roles in the group- but it isn’t tank/healer rolls etc- it’d be custom built for the boss we’re fighting. One example is a Necromancer boss in Twilight arbour who spawns many spiders. He wiped our group three times with conventional tactics. Then we changed up. I ( a warrior) went my quick-movement rifle build, that rids me of conditions and imbolise- so that one player could evade the boss until others ressed if need be. A Elementalist and a Guardian went aoe- removal and led his spiders off to the corner of the room so they wouldn’t bother us. Another guardian mitgated boss damage and a thief went sheer single-target damage. It got hairy and by the end only me and one guardian were standing- but the feeling of him falling was glorious. This is a much better system to holy trinity- a system you’re looking at with rose-tinted glasses. I remember dying just as much in other games- if not more, but then not having the ability to radically change up my playstyle- and having to just slog as ‘always the tank’

Algreg.3629:

there are hundreds of games out there that still work exactly in this way. Play them, just play them and revel in Trinity glory. Stop trying to grind one of the very few MMORPG that are currently different into the mashed potato mass that the MMORPG market is.

GW2 is awesome. It’s just the group content that’s not so good. Really, talking about requiring more skill seeing how events work, makes no sense to me. There’s 0 skill in events. Much much less than having a tank and a healer.

And inside instances, the bosses arent smart, or use cool tactics. The difficulty comes exclusively from having a lot of hp and damage. That’s the cheapest and worst difficulty games can create

You get GW2, a game with a light trinity of Soak/Control/Support, with all 3 also doing damage.

i notice you kept saying “ranger”, which means the only experience you have is with ascalonian catacombs. try different dungeons.

and, for a revelation, try slotting support/utility skills. that’s the MAIN problem i see with most people. they don’t change their mindset from questing → dungeon and play the exact same way with 4 purely-dps skills and a glass cannon build and keep dying, repeatedly, and blame the game and not themselves.

while i can’t say whether the balance is right or not yet (it feels good in some places, undertuned in others and overtuned in more), the systems are there. they just need to be smoothed out and refined.

ITT: PUGs play just as faceroll as they did in WoW, but it doesn’t work here. Conclusion: WoW has to be better.

You should read what you wrote, really.

By the way, what about only encouraging dps? because I went to events with my engineer as healer, and I got bronze, I go with my warrior as tank, and sometimes get silver (rest gold, but because of the damage, not the utiliy I provide). But I go with any class as dps faceroller, as you say, and get gold even if I arrive late.

kal.4350:

Algreg.3629:

there are hundreds of games out there that still work exactly in this way. Play them, just play them and revel in Trinity glory. Stop trying to grind one of the very few MMORPG that are currently different into the mashed potato mass that the MMORPG market is.

GW2 is awesome. It’s just the group content that’s not so good. Really, talking about requiring more skill seeing how events work, makes no sense to me. There’s 0 skill in events. Much much less than having a tank and a healer.

And inside instances, the bosses arent smart, or use cool tactics. The difficulty comes exclusively from having a lot of hp and damage. That’s the cheapest and worst difficulty games can create

Ok. Yes, but it is allready changing now that people are more spread out. You are right, when we all started, the maps sure looked like ant-farms, 50 players turning event enemies into kepab in seconds. But now with less players at events it became harder and requires more thought – and more entertaining imo (and guess what, people are allready starting to complain about this).

A trained eye can look through all the particles and see the true tactics.

-Sagenod-

Lol, the holy trinity hasn’t been removed from the game at all. The roles are still there, and will always be there.

What’s changed is that you don’t have to chose a specific class to fulfill a specific role any more, and that change has been building gradually for years. SWG did it ages, ago. Lotro, on the other hand, gave you classes that leaned towards a mixture of roles and let you equip items and skills to make you as efficient as possible in that role. More recently guildwars 1 and Rift (for example) have let you mix and match classes to build a character to fulfill the role you choose for yourself. The secret world has done away with the idea almost entirely.

Guildwars 2 borrows from all of the above. Classes very loosely lean in favour of one or more aspects of the trinity, and you can be as focused, or as flexible as you like.

Sure, it changes the game. It’s encouraging emergent gameplay, new styles of play that people are experimenting with, some good, some bad, some the same.

What I think is fantastic is a warrior being able to throw away the sword its been cursed with for over 20 years of gaming and being able to pick up a gun, and be good with it. Its the thief that doesn’t have to sneak, back stab and attack from shadows, and can be in your face with a sword and a smile. Or the guardian that can think “I’m sick of healers being so squishy, pass the band aids and the heavy plate armour”

The “pick this character to do this role” thing is a paradigm from a less sophisticated time when it wasn’t so easy to build a game that allowed you much room for variety or diversity of play styles and choice. Guild Wars 2 is another step along the road to allowing players more freedom and flexibility to handle how they approach fulfilling the roles prescribed within “the holy trinity”, and wether they go all out on just one aspect, or balance between several. It also allows them to chose wether they tackle the role with steel, sorcery or something else..

The trinity is still there, it’s just grown up over the years, and to be quite honest, its about time…

I feel the problem in dungeons is that they were designed for dps/tank/healer BEFORE they took it out.

I do not think so, but rather dungeons were designed to make people intelligently avoid damage and use their characters´ abilities to their best – and it seems like a win to me.

I used to die on Ac rangers all the time.

Then I learned that things like blind and reflect/destroy projectiles exists. Funny how those rangers became a complete joke after literally 2 minutes of strategy talks with my buddy.

Azthioth.9682:

Maybe having it back in the form that we all know it is the bad idea, but why not let every class tank, heal, and dps as they choose?

No more we need a tank since everyone can tank. No need to a healer cause everyone can heal. It’s the mass chaos that bothers me. There is no real challenge other than patience.

All professions can already heal, tank and dps quite effectively already, whilst the options to do so are still limited. This limitation on holy trinity roles is necessary because without it, this mmo would feature a holy trinity like all the others. If players had unlimited ability to create tank, healer and dps builds, there would just be a holy trinity again. That’s why we have limits to our tank, healer and dps skills/abilities.

Algreg.3629:

I do not think so, but rather dungeons were designed to make people intelligently avoid damage and use their characters´ abilities to their best – and it seems like a win to me.

Yeah this.

The dungeons aren’t chaos or graveyard zergs if you’re doing them properly. I did a guild run of AC explorable last night and we all came out of it having made money from the run. One guy commented that it was quicker and smoother than his pug of story mode earlier in the week.

Why? We were on TS co-ordinating, discussing tactics before pulls, supporting each other and swapping weapons and skills to deal with specific mobs.

Azthioth.9682:

Absolute chaos.

This is supposed to be better?

Yep, its great, embrace the chaos over the boring scripted dance in other mmos.

You still need control, cc, kiting, debuffs, buffs and so on, its just that everyone is responsible not just one person. If you want to stand there and nuke, go fight a taret dummy, thats essentially what bosses in a certain other mmo have become.

Embracethe chaos, its much more fun, and as people get used to it order will emerge.