Guild Wars 2

I ran an all-thief run of CM last night, and it was a blast. The first boss took longer than usual due to our ranged abilities but then we tore the place apart.

Everyone knew what to do, we combined our skills, and completed in around 35 minutes. Now, we weren’t all level 80 either… group composition was mostly mid-40s, one 50 and one 80.

No. Trinity. Needed.

kal.4350:

By the way, what about only encouraging dps? because I went to events with my engineer as healer, and I got bronze, I go with my warrior as tank, and sometimes get silver (rest gold, but because of the damage, not the utiliy I provide). But I go with any class as dps faceroller, as you say, and get gold even if I arrive late.

You cannot heal 100% of the time so what did you do while you’re healing skills where on cool down?

you cant tank all the time so what did you do while those skills where in cool down?

You can never be a single role exclusively in GW2, you can prep to make one role more effective then the other but ultimately you’re everything during a fight. You simply adopt to the situation at hand!. If you went in and just healed you made yourself less useful on purpose hence the lower reward fits.

If you play holistically but focus on support then you’ll get gold!

IMHO, in GW2 you don’t need a doctor but a medic would be useful, no need for a gatling but you can bring a heavy gunner, you can follow the lead of a sergant without the need of a lieutenant. There are differences between a squad, elite force or a random group. We are all soldiers but combining professions can create different results.

I find the reomoval of the Holy Trinity a great feature of this game. I completely disagree with the player that created the forum who states that the dungeon runs are chaos. If you are well organised and know how to actually play the game (dodge, come up with tactics etc), there is no chaos at all. Instead, you get a well structured fight making success a cooperative and well desrved matter.
I did Ascalonian Catacombs explorable mode, paths 2 and 3 yesterday and I was indeed absolutely stunned by the greatness of the system.

Starting to get annoying having to repeat myself.

The dungeon zerging is due to the waypoint system, not the trinity.
The system means you can run in and die with no consequences, the trinity being removed has nothing to do with it.

The so-called holy trinity is a brain child of a certain kind of game design, a game design that supplemented the lack of smart AI, the inability to adapt to players actions, with a mechanic that can be described with threat = aggro, every action has a threat score, and the player with highest threat became the target.

From that came taunts, that have an extremely high threat score, whoever first introduced them probably intended them to be used as a way to pull an enemy away from a dying team mate. I find it hard to believe the initial design document for the threat system included the concept of one player keeping an enemy always attacking him consistently and never touching the players that are actually hurting it.

Holy trinity was born out of efficiency, while it is necessary to do damage, heal and have some degree of positional control in all encounters, only once players started playing the threat mechanic and abusing its lack of adaptability in pursuit of efficiency the trinity formula as it exists today was born, and many games have since adopted it.

But segregated roles, that you would be stuck in, were never a requirement for a fun encounter, just as min maxing for one of those roles wasn’t. The players did it out of efficiency because of the gear treadmill and the eternal game of catchup that formed.

In a sense, the traditional holy trinity that has now become one way of designing an MMO, even a norm to some, was originally nothing more than exploitation of a limited AI. Holy trinity is not based on three roles, as some would say, it is based on the tanks ability to glue enemies to himself, what the other people do in a trinity setup is also based on it, because a trinity fight is predictable, you end up with rotations and dps meters etc. Take that predictability out and yes there will be chaos, until people find the most efficient way to deal with the lack of taunts, fortunately that is not based on group composition, due to lack of burst heal profession, but on positional play (although with enough players, AoE spam for the win is sad but true… “fighting” the keep lord in WvW is such a sad event).

I gotta admit, sometimes I miss the holy trinity, being dedicated healer / tank.
But again, nothing stopping me from playing other (if not all) MMOs that having those trinity whenever I want. No one is forbidding me to play 2 or more MMOs at the same time.

Let this game be what it is.

I’ll take it the way it is. Can you imagine how long it would take to get a full dungeon set if you had to wait around for a tank or a healer? You could probably easily triple the amount of time it would take if you had to wait around for those specific roles to be filled.

It would go from a 30+ hour grind to a 90+ hour waiting game.

Azthioth.9682:

Echo.7634:

Remove the “holy trinity” and what do you get?
ABSOLUTE AWESOME.

For reference there ARE tanking abilities.
There ARE healing abilities.
There ARE crowd control abilities.

Just because you don’t use them does not mean that they don’t exist.

You DO know that you can dodge attacks and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can block attack and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can kite mobs and get hit less often right?
You DO know that pretty much every class has ranged weapons available to it right?

From your post it sounds like you are a “dps” and trying to run in and face tank everything on your own. You are expecting others to “tank” for you and “heal” you. Take a few minutes to read what your class can do. Pretty much every class has a “tanky” and “support/healing” option available to it.

Rather than blaming the game for not working how you want it to, why don’t you take the time to learn to play the game?

I am going to assume you are joking, twelve, or completely misguided.

As you said, all these abilities are there. but none of them are good enough to be used efficiently at all. Why do I care i have tanking abilities if there is no tank and have to use them at random? Why have healing abilities when they are not nearly enough? Why even bother with healing when one of the rangers gets on you and cc’s you for 5 sec while draining your health? Just let people chain rez.

The point is that this is just a mess inside the dungeon. No order at all. Trinity gave us order and a logical challenge. This is not a challenge. It is a shooting barrel with fish that are really hard to kill.

You are being illogical. Trinity didn’t bring challenge…. it brought about a never changing pattern that made the game easy. As soon as you saw one boss video on World of Warcraft and mimmicked it the fight was one providing no one was failing miserable.

You think its right that a boss should always target the plate wearing tank that is barely hurting it?

And as a healer myself I LOOOOVED looking at spreadsheet bars instead of the actual fight 90% of the time… oh wait, no I didn’t

That “order” you claim, isn’t challenge, it trivilizes everything, no randomness, nothing for you to personall do other than dodge the occasional fire as a dps.

You are just another person that can’t adapt outside of that age old tradition.

I can’t fathom how you think knowing exactly how a fight is going to play out every time is fun.

They’re targeting the super casual players. Did you expect to find something here that requires actual dedication, and preparation?

That’s why there’s no sub.

The perfect example of an action-MMO (which GW2 claims to be) that has no trinity system which focuses on individual skill as well as group cooperation is Vindictus.

GW2 could learn A LOT from the way bosses and encounters are designed in that game.

There are tons of MMOs around that use the holy trinity. There is ONE that doesn’t. Why is it so important for you to “fix” the only game that does things differently?

If it’s not for you, we all understand. I LIKE it this way.

If your dungeon runs are a chaotic graveyard zerg then you’re doing them wrong. Simple as that.

Haragan.8470:

They’re targeting the super casual players. Did you expect to find something here that requires actual dedication, and preparation?

That’s why there’s no sub.

Subs aren’t a requirement for dedication and preparation in a game.

Azthioth.9682:

Absolute chaos.

This is supposed to be better? No order, no cc, crazy mobs with never ending cc running around all over the place randomly picking targets,kitten npc’s, and this is freedom?

How is dying over and over just to respawn to go back to the same fight challenging? It is just chain rezzing and chain respawning. I was expecting so much more from this, but in truth the dungeons are horrible.

I know you can jump on skype and try to chain your cc’s together but that will not stop a ranger from kicking your entire team 20 times in 1 fight because there is no solid cc.

The holy trinity was there for a reason. It worked. It gave order and an accepted challenge for each roll to accomplish. I don’t mind innovative thinking or trying new things, but it was just ridiculous. I would even say we had a good group and we did complete the dungeon, but it was even worse than any other mmo dungeon I have played.

Maybe I am missing something, but I will take my holy trinity back any day. Good thing this game is spot in for questing and pvp.

EXACTLY, the trinity is a lot more fun, more interesting dungeon encounters can be designed under that system too.

Under GW2 system its just 1 shot fests and graveyard rushes until the boss dies. really? tank and spank everything.

Mists of Pandaria cannot come soon enough honestly, that is a lot more fun and skillful then the mindless zerg playstyle that this game encourages. Also items have actual meaning in WoW, unlike GW2.

The game’s philosophy of combat and profession design is controlled chaos. Instead of going through the motions, you constantly adapt to ever-changing situation, coordinate with your team on the fly and exploit new opportunities.

Game doesn’t punish you for playing, but for playing bad - and that comes from wrong assessment of the situation you’re in, endangering you and your team, potentially leading to failure.

Even then, game is nice enough to let you respawn and face the challenge again, having adjusted your weapons loadout, skills and traits, or even going back to town to repair equipment.

Trying to impose an arbitrary order in the game, pigeon-holing entire professions into "healers", "DPSers" or "tanks" or particular builds based on that false distinction is simply wrong.

Tallenn.9218:

There are tons of MMOs around that use the holy trinity. There is ONE that doesn’t. Why is it so important for you to “fix” the only game that does things differently?

If it’s not for you, we all understand. I LIKE it this way.

There are tons of MMOs that in fact do not use the trinity.

Demosthene.2195:

The game’s philosophy of combat and profession design is controlled chaos. Instead of going through the motions, you constantly adapt to ever-changing situation, coordinate with your team on the fly and exploit new opportunities.

Game doesn’t punish you for playing, but for playing bad – and that comes from wrong assessment of the situation you’re in, endangering you and your team, potentially leading to failure.

Even then, game is nice enough to let you respawn and face the challenge again, having adjusted your weapons loadout, skills and traits, or even going back to town to repair equipment.

Trying to impose an arbitrary order in the game, pigeon-holing entire professions into “healers”, “DPSers” or “tanks” or particular builds based on that false distinction is simply wrong.

It fails at all of these designs. There is no punishing for playing bad because the zerg will just down everything even if you face roll your keyboard pressing #1 over and over, you will win every event and get gold in it most likely.

Demosthene.2195:

The game’s philosophy of combat and profession design is controlled chaos. Instead of going through the motions, you constantly adapt to ever-changing situation, coordinate with your team on the fly and exploit new opportunities.

Game doesn’t punish you for playing, but for playing bad – and that comes from wrong assessment of the situation you’re in, endangering you and your team, potentially leading to failure.

Even then, game is nice enough to let you respawn and face the challenge again, having adjusted your weapons loadout, skills and traits, or even going back to town to repair equipment.

Trying to impose an arbitrary order in the game, pigeon-holing entire professions into “healers”, “DPSers” or “tanks” or particular builds based on that false distinction is simply wrong.

In dungeons I think a lot of people seem to be having trouble with the fact that they aren’t being told exactly what to do at all times so they aren’t adjusting their weapons, skill, traits or even tactics. They’re just running back over and over repeating the same thing and then wondering why it doesn’t work.

Haragan.8470:

They’re targeting the super casual players. Did you expect to find something here that requires actual dedication, and preparation?

That’s why there’s no sub.

So that is why 99% of all WoW players cant even walk out of the red, yes?

Remove the holy trinity and what do you get?

People crying about it on the forums?

Salt.4621:

Remove the holy trinity and what do you get?

People crying about it on the forums?

BooooM!!

“These other 2 guys are hurting me a lot, but I’m gonna focus on this guy in the plate armor because he’s making fun of me, even though that guy in the robe over there’s fixing all the damage I do.”

Yeah… I’d rather not go back to that. If you can’t handle GW2’s gameplay, whatevs, but please don’t insist that your mediocrity should be forced down the throats of the rest of us, and please don’t insist the game’s bad just because you can’t play worth a crap.

Oh, and Haragan, the reason there’s no sub fee is because no sub fee is needed. Ever. Take a look at SEC filings of every MMO company out there, and (provided you’re smart enough to make heads or tails of it) you’ll realize that a sub fee means you’re giving the developers $15 a month for absolutely nothing.

While I am very much relieved to see the holy trinity tossed out with the trash, I would’ve like the option to build a stronger support class(es). I like water magic, but it just doesn’t feel very strong in healing compared to what i’m used to from other games.

Zerging goes on in WoW dungeons too by the way. The number of times I’ve been grinding my teeth in a 5 man pug because people are ignoring every single boss mechanic and standing in everything in sight is unbelievable. A lot of those pug runs were completed only because of me and my raid gear boosting these people. They don’t CC, they aggro everything randomly and try to AOE it. (No not every person in a pug is like that, but a lot are.)

Amra.6028:

Haragan.8470:

They’re targeting the super casual players. Did you expect to find something here that requires actual dedication, and preparation?

That’s why there’s no sub.

So that is why 99% of all WoW players cant even walk out of the red, yes?

Why so insecure? I never mentioned WoW. Never played WoW passed BC.

Just stating a fact.

Haragan.8470:

They’re targeting the super casual players. Did you expect to find something here that requires actual dedication, and preparation?

That’s why there’s no sub.

that is so wrong – or maybe we have a different concept of casual. In standard mmorpg, the dedication is in the preparation: character build and equipment. Powergaming there is to grind for the best gear and min/max your character traits (which everyone can do by checking builds on the internet). The playing itself is easy, everyone follows a strict pattern sometimes for half an hour. In GW2, the skill is more in the action itself and on the fly changing of skill setups/strategies.

I am not saying former MMORPGs required no skill or that they are not good games, it is just different here – and dedication has its reward, like improving the guy in front of the screen – and that is a good thing.

I went into a dungeon as half a premade. Me and two guildies with two puggers.

Me and my guildies barely died, created complex kiting patterns, overlapping combo fields and all kinds of stuff to allow us to easily down every boss and trash pull.

The puggers died about 30 times a piece.

Smart players can find order in the chaos, this game has roles, they’re just not the same roles as previous MMOs.

The “tank” is a soak kiter. Warriors do this excellently with fast endurance regen.

Then you have support and control. Heals and CC. Guardians do this amazingly.

Then you’ve got damage, which should still be doing minor control and kiting when necessary.

It really is pretty similar to traditional 3 role PvE.

Anyone else remember the old adventure RPGs where you had a group of people but if someone dies they die for good and if you lose everyone you had to start the game over? >_<

This issue comes up a lot, and I truly believe it is simply a matter of reeducating ourselves to a new method of combat. People see MMO and immediately believe certain things have to be true. Most of this is subconscious and requires some discipline to push past. Timely use of mechanics make it a very strategic experience.

On my Mesmer, using a combination of cripples (focus skill), blocks (sword and scepter skills) reflections (feedback), stuns (sword offhand, mantra and shatters), and, of course, dodge, I’ve been able to keep even boss level mobs occupied indefinitely while teammates mop up adds or deal with other mechanics. It feels unique to the profession, it is effective and it is fun.

I think every profession has ways to provide unique value to the group – with that role changing significantly based on weapon choice, talents and stats. It just takes more thought than the traditional “trinity” model.

At the same time, groups can still “zerg” some (not all) encounters, but they should expect alot of deaths and repair bills. This fits the description from a developer early on of “easy to learn, hard to master.” Everyone gets to play – but those who master their professions get to play without the repair bills and deaths in dungeons.

Done properly, the role of the group is to make order of the chaos described by the OP. Understanding your profession and their skills, that is not only possible, it is challenging and fun.

Azthioth.9682:

Maybe having it back in the form that we all know it is the bad idea, but why not let every class tank, heal, and dps as they choose?

No more we need a tank since everyone can tank. No need to a healer cause everyone can heal. It’s the mass chaos that bothers me. There is no real challenge other than patience.

This wouldn’t help. In Rift 3 of 4 classes can tank (with the right gear and spec) and 2 of 4 can heal but must ppl just don’t want to play anything else but dps.

I prefered to play healers in previous games (wow, vanguard, rift) and still have to see (only lvl 25) how i can adopt to the gw2 system but i think everybody has to do mostly damage but also a bit of healing and tanking and when i look at the forums a lot of ppl are only looking for a max dps spec and expect that anybody else protects/saves them like it was in other games whichs won’t work without dedicated tanks/healers.

It takes time for meta game to adapt. I’ve seen some impressive things in PvP and WvW. It requires intelligence both to do these things and to counter them. This game is more complex and has more potential than any holy trinity game I’ve ever played, IMO. This game is not chaotic. Seeing chaos only means you aren’t seeing the patterns. Whichever people/clans who see through the chaos faster and more accurately will gain significant advantages over the QQing newbs who don’t want to/can’t.

Everyone with any sense knew what they were getting into when they purchased the game. Anet clearly stated time and again that there will be no “Holy Trinity” and anyone who either didnt listen or had their head in the sand cant really complain.

The games all about fast paced action. Where one second your mashing up the mob the next your praying for a swift rez before the hammer drops on your head. The whole concept is that you WILL get downed. You will be defeated. But that dont mean your done. Some of the dungeons may be a little OTT witht eh damage some mobs do but thats a diffeent discussion and frankly is just a slight tuning issue.

On the whole the system is a breath of fresh air, and Im loving it.

Azeroth… sorry, I mean Azthioth, I think you’re just stuck. Like a chess player who just hasn’t yet figured out the strategy of Go.

GW2 will definitely feel like chaos to those who are looking for the aggro and threat elements of WoW. If you’re trying to figure out how to get those blasted creatures to focus on the ONE guy up front (a la WoW) then you’re going to find this hectic, until you suddenly see the battlefield tactic rather than the linear one. If you’re patient and can bring yourself to completely abandon the other play style and learn this one, the chaos will disappear and you’ll start to see the brilliant strategies of Tyria.

Actually, if you remove the trinity you get.. the trinity. Players are sill insisting on certain class composition in groups.

The issue is the player bases, not the game mechanics. Since it’s a thought process change we’re still going to face the same issues of class exclusions/demand we had in other games.

Just look at how in demand warriors/guardians are for dungeon teams as opposed to Engineers or mesmers.

“Remove the holy trinity and what do you get?”

Answer: A different way to enjoy a video game.

Many others have already offered wonderful responses/counters to the OP. I won’t waste much time on it. I am very glad the holy trinity is not here. If I want to “tank” or “heal” (which I often do in MMO’s) I know where I can go find it. GW2 is a fresh take on group strategy.

The Holy Trinity is alive an well on almost every MMO in existence and people still gather here to gripe about the lack of it in this game?

I hope like hell that ANet stands by their guns and their original vision for this game and never, ever institutes the Trinity here.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Actually, if you remove the trinity you get.. the trinity. Players are sill insisting on certain class composition in groups.

These are generally the LFG requests I know to ignore. If I see someone insisting that the last person they need has to be a guardian or a warrior, they clearly don’t know how to play and that dungeon’s probably going to rock them.

Then they’ll come here and make threads like “Remove the holy trinity and what do you get? Absolute chaos,” blaming the game for their inability to play it effectively.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Actually, if you remove the trinity you get.. the trinity. Players are sill insisting on certain class composition in groups.

The issue is the player bases, not the game mechanics. Since it’s a thought process change we’re still going to face the same issues of class exclusions/demand we had in other games.

Just look at how in demand warriors/guardians are for dungeon teams as opposed to Engineers or mesmers.

I never had any problem getting into a group as an engineer – if a group does not understand the usefulness of that class´ battlefield control because they cannot shelf me into their wow-concepts I am happy to have missed that “opportunity”. From what I have seen from terrific mesmer players, I´d say the same of them.

The Trinity is still here, it’s just been blurred so much that people can’t even see it.

You can heal, but it’s not as good as your own personal heal.
You can tank, but you can’t just sit there and take a beating.. you gotta move/dodge/kite in addition to having those few skills/armor that lets you tank
You can dps…. But you gotta adapt and realize that survival is more important that going balls to the walls trying to win at some dps meter (Which doesn’t and won’t exist here)

All im seeing here is a playstyle gripe and how what we’ve done for nearly 8+ years doesn’t work anymore… instead we have to think/adapt to situations at hand (hell, went through AC one time and I nearly switched utilities for each pull cause I knew it would make things easier if I did.. and it felt awesome knowing that)

Adapt. Adapt… Adapt… It’s the only way you’ll grow in this game (and hell, even in real life)

Algreg.3629:

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Actually, if you remove the trinity you get.. the trinity. Players are sill insisting on certain class composition in groups.

The issue is the player bases, not the game mechanics. Since it’s a thought process change we’re still going to face the same issues of class exclusions/demand we had in other games.

Just look at how in demand warriors/guardians are for dungeon teams as opposed to Engineers or mesmers.

I never had any problem getting into a group as an engineer – if a group does not understand the usefulness of that class´ battlefield control because they cannot shelf me into their wow-concepts I am happy to have missed that “opportunity”. From what I have seen from terrific mesmer players, I´d say the same of them.

Oh I agree. It’s their loss. The issue then becomes one of perception in the majority of players. Which then turns into a ‘would like’ and then become a necessity and we end up with ‘must take this or that’ .

Haragan.8470:

Amra.6028:

Haragan.8470:

They’re targeting the super casual players. Did you expect to find something here that requires actual dedication, and preparation?

That’s why there’s no sub.

So that is why 99% of all WoW players cant even walk out of the red, yes?

Why so insecure? I never mentioned WoW. Never played WoW passed BC.

Just stating a fact.

The existence of a sub does not mean anything towards the target audience.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Algreg.3629:

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Actually, if you remove the trinity you get.. the trinity. Players are sill insisting on certain class composition in groups.

The issue is the player bases, not the game mechanics. Since it’s a thought process change we’re still going to face the same issues of class exclusions/demand we had in other games.

Just look at how in demand warriors/guardians are for dungeon teams as opposed to Engineers or mesmers.

I never had any problem getting into a group as an engineer – if a group does not understand the usefulness of that class´ battlefield control because they cannot shelf me into their wow-concepts I am happy to have missed that “opportunity”. From what I have seen from terrific mesmer players, I´d say the same of them.

Oh I agree. It’s their loss. The issue then becomes one of perception in the majority of players. Which then turns into a ‘would like’ and then become a necessity and we end up with ‘must take this or that’ .

as of now, I see more of this “give me wow”-stuff in the forum than in game where the vast majority rather seems to enjoy itself (as opposed to whine how different the game is from that other one they so rock at). And even here they seem to be a minority – if all fails, I allready know a few guildies without a narrow mindset

Azthioth.9682:

The holy trinity was there for a reason. It worked. It gave order and an accepted challenge for each roll to accomplish.

And we all know fighting and war is nothing if not orderly.

Porky.5021:

And we all know fighting and war is nothing if not orderly.

LMAO

Thread just got won, guys. Wrap it up.

Porky.5021:

Azthioth.9682:

The holy trinity was there for a reason. It worked. It gave order and an accepted challenge for each roll to accomplish.

And we all know fighting and war is nothing if not orderly.

haha, dude, you rock!

There is a real holy trinity, there always has been, and it applies in real life combat as well as in games. That trinity is CC (or in real life “Intel” and the various clever methods of feinting and fooling the enemy that warriors have developed over the centuries), Support, and DPS.

(As an aside: there has never been such a thing as a videogame “tank” (high HP low DPS high “taunt”) in real life combat. Real tanks are both tough and DPS monsters. Tanks are a threat precisely because of this.)

The only reason for videogame “tanks” and “healers” has been because of the dumbness of AI (or perhaps, sometimes, developer laziness). As soon as you have smarter AI that doesn’t glom on the guy who’s armoured up to the nines shouting “yo momma” at them, then you have to fight smart.

In this game you have to fight smart. Sure, people can be more tanky or healery and divide their roles a bit, but fundamentally the division of labour has to be more spread out in the team. Everyone has to have some Support skills, and a bit of CC. Everyone needs to be somewhat tough, as well as doing some DPS. That means that tactics can be fluid and shift somewhat. Instead of one team composition, the team composition has to be fluid, such that nobody is fixed in any particular role.

Totally off topic, but what is a “kitten npc”?

Fiddlestyx.9714:

Totally off topic, but what is a “kitten npc”?

“Kitten” is the substitute word for the word filter.

An adorable word filter.

Let me just point out that the “Holy Trinity” has nothing to do with CC. Anet could have put longer CC in the game without any “Holy Trinity” being in place. However I am glad that they kept CC short as it would have affected PVP. I know many players came here from WoW where Blizzard is actually on record of saying that they put priority on PVE over PVP mechanics, and will have a hard time accepting that Anet is more concerned about the PVP aspect of GW2.

Yes because queue times waiting for just ONE tank, or just ONE Healer were working right?

How many times have you wanted to do an instance but couldn’t find a tank or a healer? That is what I find ridiculous.

Scratch that – how many people ROLLED alts to make tanks and healers just so they could actually run content because they knew finding 3 DPS was instantaneous.

Really? dumping a character JUST to be able to play the game using a character you might not enjoy – but at least it gets you in.

That my friend is a totally broken system.

AC is the hardest dungeon IMO and story mode at this point for me yields very few deaths. Explorer mode is another story – but with practice I bet I could get it down as well.

The level of teamwork and dependence on players here in GW2 is far higher than in games that use the Holy Trinity. Because if I have aggro and need to back out, people need to watch for that and pick up the slack. CC’s need to be used, and they need to be used at the right times and players need to know that.

It’s all doable – it’s just very different. I personally love it. Mass deaths happened in the beginning of doing dungeons for me, but now? not so much.