Guild Wars 2

My proposal: I unlock a new game plus by either getting 100% map completion or finishing the main story quests (i.e., killing Zhaitan).

New game plus allows me to replay the open world PvE with enemies being more difficult (and possibly having my stats nerfed). Rewards should be slightly better (loot drops, etc.) but I’m not asking for anything Monty Haul.

This concept dates back to the original Zelda game on NES and has been used to great success in numerous other games from Diablo II to Borderlands.

The added challenge gives PvE players a reason to log in for many more hours.

As a side note, allowing a “hardcore” mode with perms-death in PvE is also worth a hard think.

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

Without making any comment on the OP’s idea itself, I think you’ve misunderstood him. He’s not suggesting hard mode for all. He gives the examples of a hard-mode player having their stats nerfed or being susceptible to perma-death. It’s a strictly personal effect, which could be accomplished by a condition on the hard-mode player, not unlike the Agony in the Fractals.

Really you could just put on an outfit and take all your armor off and use a white stat weapon. Interesting idea tho.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

You’re either high or trolling me, either way I thank you for your input!

In all seriousness though, a different server might be needed for my “game plus” players.

Andraus.3874:

Really you could just put on an outfit and take all your armor off and use a white stat weapon. Interesting idea tho.

It would not be the same. Just would not.

I’m trying to help both Anet and myself here. A true game-Plus would sustain my interest for several more months, at least. I’m already looking for something else to play.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

Without making any comment on the OP’s idea itself, I think you’ve misunderstood him. He’s not suggesting hard mode for all. He gives the examples of a hard-mode player having their stats nerfed or being susceptible to perma-death. It’s a strictly personal effect, which could be accomplished by a condition on the hard-mode player, not unlike the Agony in the Fractals.

Thank you for understanding Zoltar, or at least for your high level reading comprehension.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

Without making any comment on the OP’s idea itself, I think you’ve misunderstood him. He’s not suggesting hard mode for all. He gives the examples of a hard-mode player having their stats nerfed or being susceptible to perma-death. It’s a strictly personal effect, which could be accomplished by a condition on the hard-mode player, not unlike the Agony in the Fractals.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

replay the open world PvE with enemies being more difficult (and possibly having my stats nerfed)….As a side note, allowing a “hardcore” mode with perms-death in PvE is also worth a hard think.

I didn’t misunderstand anything – he specifically states harder enemies which cannot be done without instancing and if this did occur then you are splitting new players from Vets which would kill the game (Try watching a Noob run through DDO these days)

Much easier to just keep getting new, harder content.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

Andraus.3874:

Really you could just put on an outfit and take all your armor off and use a white stat weapon. Interesting idea tho.

It would not be the same. Just would not.

I’m trying to help both Anet and myself here. A true game-Plus would sustain my interest for several more months, at least. I’m already looking for something else to play.

Yeah I know. Personally I think this is a cool idea and wouldn’t mind turning this on from time to time for fun. I would never bother with the work around I suggested as it would be a pain with like clogging up inventory and a bother to unequip everything plus I don’t care for outfits and put a lot of thought into my character looks. Unfortunately I doubt it will happen. Anets resources seem way too stretched to consider ideas like this.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

You’re either high or trolling me, either way I thank you for your input!

In all seriousness though, a different server might be needed for my “game plus” players.

People who disagree with you are either high or Trolls? If your skin is that thin don’t post in forums.

Andraus.3874:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

Andraus.3874:

Really you could just put on an outfit and take all your armor off and use a white stat weapon. Interesting idea tho.

It would not be the same. Just would not.

I’m trying to help both Anet and myself here. A true game-Plus would sustain my interest for several more months, at least. I’m already looking for something else to play.

Yeah I know. Personally I think this is a cool idea and wouldn’t mind turning this on from time to time for fun. I would never bother with the work around I suggested as it would be a pain with like clogging up inventory and a bother to unequip everything plus I don’t care for outfits and put a lot of thought into my character looks. Unfortunately I doubt it will happen. Anets resources seem way too stretched to consider ideas like this.

Yeah, I understand you. I just post this stuff to vent I guess, I know Anet probably isn’t listening and probably just doesn’t have the resources if they are.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

You’re either high or trolling me, either way I thank you for your input!

In all seriousness though, a different server might be needed for my “game plus” players.

People who disagree with you are either high or Trolls? If your skin is that thin don’t post in forums.

My skin is fine man, I did buffer that statement with “In all seriousness, though.” Don’t take it so seriously.

Reducing your stats/combat effectiveness to get better rewards wouldn’t work if you were still put with regular players; they took out magic find gear for a reason.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

My skin is fine man, I did buffer that statement with “In all seriousness, though.” Don’t take it so seriously.

I can assure you I do not take you seriously Maybe you should focus on what the thread is about instead of trying to start flame wars.

Like I said, it’s not possible to have a hard mode enemies without instancing which would be really bad for the game. Am all for harder content, but it should be new content.

Serval.6458:

Reducing your stats/combat effectiveness to get better rewards wouldn’t work if you were still put with regular players; they took out magic find gear for a reason.

I don’t understand your point. Also, see my comment above about possibly needing a different server for New Game Plus (now copyrighted) players.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

My skin is fine man, I did buffer that statement with “In all seriousness, though.” Don’t take it so seriously.

I can assure you I do not take you seriously

Good, lord knows I don’t take myself seriously.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

My skin is fine man, I did buffer that statement with “In all seriousness, though.” Don’t take it so seriously.

I can assure you I do not take you seriously Maybe you should focus on what the thread is about instead of trying to start flame wars.

Like I said, it’s not possible to have a hard mode enemies without instancing which would be really bad for the game. Am all for harder content, but it should be new content.

Wait, it’s my thread? I think I know what it’s about!

And as for new content, what do you want, more wings? More places to glide? More vertical maps? Good grief, game plus is so simple and proven.

That’s it, I’m breaking out Italian Spiderman.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

FlashAhAhh.4307:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

My skin is fine man, I did buffer that statement with “In all seriousness, though.” Don’t take it so seriously.

I can assure you I do not take you seriously Maybe you should focus on what the thread is about instead of trying to start flame wars.

Like I said, it’s not possible to have a hard mode enemies without instancing which would be really bad for the game. Am all for harder content, but it should be new content.

Wait, it’s my thread? I think I know what it’s about!

And as for new content, what do you want, more wings? More places to glide? More vertical maps? Good grief, game plus is so simple and proven.

I’m just going to ignore the lame personal insults.

Like I’ve said, you can’t have hard mode enemies without instancing. Your “Simple and proven” idea will not work.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

FlashAhAhh.4307:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

My skin is fine man, I did buffer that statement with “In all seriousness, though.” Don’t take it so seriously.

I can assure you I do not take you seriously Maybe you should focus on what the thread is about instead of trying to start flame wars.

Like I said, it’s not possible to have a hard mode enemies without instancing which would be really bad for the game. Am all for harder content, but it should be new content.

Wait, it’s my thread? I think I know what it’s about!

And as for new content, what do you want, more wings? More places to glide? More vertical maps? Good grief, game plus is so simple and proven.

I’m just going to ignore the lame personal insults.

Like I’ve said, you can’t have hard mode enemies without instancing. Your “Simple and proven” idea will not work.

See “Italian Spiderman” above.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

See “Italian Spiderman” above.

Idea still doesn’t work

I also consider the idea unlikely, though I have to say I liked hard mode in GW. ANet seems hellbent on huge events requiring lots of participation. They’ve also stated a reluctance to “split the player-base.” They’re already splitting the total population among PvP, WvW, raids, FotM, the core meta train, guild missions, 4 HoT metas and whatever else people find to do. How much of that would need to be cloned for a hard mode server? Seems like all of the PvE. How much more splitting can the population endure before there aren’t enough people to do metas?

A possible alternative would be that selection of hard mode generates a debuff that cuts player damage, armor and health by 1/3 (not a hard number, just an example). This would be the functional equivalent of buffing mobs, but without the need for a separate server. This would be less challenge than a hard server in group events, since other players might not be affected. However, since it would just be putting a divisor into formulae for that player, it would not split the players up, and should take less resources to implement.

As someone who understands why its more palatable to select a hard mode than to self-hamper by taking off gear, it’s my hope that this idea would allow for a similar experience to a hard server. Functionally, self-reduction is still self-reduction, but at least this allows players to fully gear and trait out a character and pit that character against PvE. I recognize, though, that some might not like the idea of others (not in hard mode) with the exact same build doing more damage in the same events. Hey, it’s an idea. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it.

Come to think of it, if they’re just putting in a check box which adds one function to various formulae, they could do multiple options for the performance reduction divisor, potentially serving a larger group of players.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I also consider the idea unlikely, though I have to say I liked hard mode in GW. ANet seems hellbent on huge events requiring lots of participation. They’ve also stated a reluctance to “split the player-base.” They’re already splitting the total population among PvP, WvW, raids, FotM, the core meta train, guild missions, 4 HoT metas and whatever else people find to do. How much of that would need to be cloned for a hard mode server? Seems like all of the PvE. How much more splitting can the population endure before there aren’t enough people to do metas?

A possible alternative would be that selection of hard mode generates a debuff that cuts player damage, armor and health by 1/3 (not a hard number, just an example). This would be the functional equivalent of buffing mobs, but without the need for a separate server. This would be less challenge than a hard server in group events, since other players might not be affected. However, since it would just be putting a divisor into formulae for that player, it would not split the players up, and should take less resources to implement.

As someone who understands why its more palatable to select a hard mode than to self-hamper by taking off gear, it’s my hope that this idea would allow for a similar experience to a hard server. Functionally, self-reduction is still self-reduction, but at least this allows players to fully gear and trait out a character and pit that character against PvE. I recognize, though, that some might not like the idea of others (not in hard mode) with the exact same build doing more damage in the same events. Hey, it’s an idea. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it.

Come to think of it, if they’re just putting in a check box which adds one function to various formulae, they could do multiple options for the performance reduction divisor, potentially serving a larger group of players.

This could work, I guess the problem for me would be if I take down a boss in hard mode, I still don’t feel all that special because everyone who helped me wasn’t in hard mode…. Then again, if maybe there could be a special reward or something if you achieve Gold in an event where you are in hard mode? But then that would be open to abuse.

It’s a bugger of a problem really, I would LOVE the game to be harder, but that’s easier said than done.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I also consider the idea unlikely, though I have to say I liked hard mode in GW. ANet seems hellbent on huge events requiring lots of participation. They’ve also stated a reluctance to “split the player-base.” They’re already splitting the total population among PvP, WvW, raids, FotM, the core meta train, guild missions, 4 HoT metas and whatever else people find to do. How much of that would need to be cloned for a hard mode server? Seems like all of the PvE. How much more splitting can the population endure before there aren’t enough people to do metas?

A possible alternative would be that selection of hard mode generates a debuff that cuts player damage, armor and health by 1/3 (not a hard number, just an example). This would be the functional equivalent of buffing mobs, but without the need for a separate server. This would be less challenge than a hard server in group events, since other players might not be affected. However, since it would just be putting a divisor into formulae for that player, it would not split the players up, and should take less resources to implement.

As someone who understands why its more palatable to select a hard mode than to self-hamper by taking off gear, it’s my hope that this idea would allow for a similar experience to a hard server. Functionally, self-reduction is still self-reduction, but at least this allows players to fully gear and trait out a character and pit that character against PvE. I recognize, though, that some might not like the idea of others (not in hard mode) with the exact same build doing more damage in the same events. Hey, it’s an idea. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it.

Come to think of it, if they’re just putting in a check box which adds one function to various formulae, they could do multiple options for the performance reduction divisor, potentially serving a larger group of players.

This could work, I guess the problem for me would be if I take down a boss in hard mode, I still don’t feel all that special because everyone who helped me wasn’t in hard mode…. Then again, if maybe there could be a special reward or something if you achieve Gold in an event where you are in hard mode? But then that would be open to abuse.

It’s a bugger of a problem really, I would LOVE the game to be harder, but that’s easier said than done.

Yeah, I agree that some aspects of the idea might present issues. I didn’t even touch on rewards. If reactions to GW2 have told ANet anything, it’s that a lot of players won’t bother with stuff if the rewards don’t make it “worthwhile.” That’s a good point about getting gold, though. Since contributions are based on numbers, reduced numbers would make getting gold medals harder, and might be worthy of a better reward in group events. Not so sure about normal events, though. That might be better solved by some minor adjustments in mob drop tables to favor the hard mode adopter.

Like any compromise, this idea is not going to give everyone exactly what they want. However, it’s my guess that it would take some sort of compromise to allow players and Anet to both get (some of) what they want. What remains to be seen is if Anet would even be interested, or if anyone beyond just a few care.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

The added challenge gives PvE players a reason to log in for many more hours.

Mobs that take longer to die and do more damage isn’t “more challenge”, it’s more like “more annoying”. That’s something the devs already understood when they messed fractal scaling (Toughness above scale 50) and now they fixed it (Toughness doesn’t scale above 50 anymore). More challenging mobs mean mobs with better and more complex skillsets, more challenging mobs mean mobs coming in more optimized groups that combine well with each other. And either of these is impossible in the open world.

maddoctor.2738:

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

The added challenge gives PvE players a reason to log in for many more hours.

Mobs that take longer to die and do more damage isn’t “more challenge”, it’s more like “more annoying”. That’s something the devs already understood when they messed fractal scaling (Toughness above scale 50) and now they fixed it (Toughness doesn’t scale above 50 anymore). More challenging mobs mean mobs with better and more complex skillsets, more challenging mobs mean mobs coming in more optimized groups that combine well with each other. And either of these is impossible in the open world.

True. Very true. I can’t really see it happening. I think new content is probably the way to go.

FlashAhAhh.4307:

No! Our maps are not instances like GW was (or Zelda or Diablo II). You can’t have a hard mode as we are all in the same maps together.

Actually, why not? You could have a -80% healing received from all sources and -50% block/invul/evade duration debuff on you during hard mode. Same enemies, but woe does it feel different.

As stated, you can certainly have normal and hard mode players in the same map fighting the same mobs at the same time, just by scaling down the hard mode players’ damage and scaling up the mob damage for those players but the sticking point is the loot. If the HM players get a higher loot tier then it becomes open to abuse, where a HM player could tag a mob then kite/heal/defend whilst the normal mode players do the work. It would probably evolve into a co-operative farm where guildies/friends take turns to earn easy HM loot. And if the loot is the same then I suspect the OP might not be so interested in HM.

However, I certainly think there is a place for HM versions of instanced stuff like Fractals, Dungeons and Raids. HArder fighte and better lootz.

Edit: misunderstood what I quoted

Personally, I’m all for instanced hard modes, but new game + simply doesn’t work well in massively multiplayer games due to the nature of persistent worlds. It works so well in single player/limited scale co-op because:
it doesn’t divide the players in the world (either the entire world is, or isn’t),
players in hard mode are unable to interact with those in “easy mode”,
the games have no post-story gameplay (once you finish the campaign, you reboot in ng+)
it’s typically used in games where players will either play once on normal and never again, or play through at least one instance of ng+.

If you make it so ng+ players are in the same world as normal players, it’s the whole mf gear debacle over again. Some players reduce their effectiveness to increase their rewards, and other players just have to pick up the slack. If you make a separate ng+ server, one of two outcomes happen. First possibility is not enough people are interested, so meta events never happen, and you just end up doing instanced content solo or in small parties anyways. Second possibility is that enough people move over to the ng+ server, which acts to further fragment the already-divided playerbase.

Gw2 has plenty of post-story gameplay. In many ng+ games, the final mission is final; in gw2, I’d wager the majority of level 80 players have finished their story missions but are still happily playing.

If you want harder content, why not new content? Instead of just artificially inflating old content difficulty, why not play the new hard stuff like fractal level 100, raids, or even not-so-old aetherpath?

Perma death is not ever going to happen in GW2.

In GW1, we had dungeons with entry fees and an actual fail state – they were thrilling in part because messing up was costly.

There is nothing like that in GW2 – all PVE content can be attempted over and over until you give up and then you can try again later.

With Fissure of Woe and Underworld, you had skin in the game and a loss was costly.

If they won’t implement something like that in GW2, perma death is off the table because it’s 100 times more risk.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I also consider the idea unlikely, though I have to say I liked hard mode in GW. ANet seems hellbent on huge events requiring lots of participation. They’ve also stated a reluctance to “split the player-base.” They’re already splitting the total population among PvP, WvW, raids, FotM, the core meta train, guild missions, 4 HoT metas and whatever else people find to do. How much of that would need to be cloned for a hard mode server? Seems like all of the PvE. How much more splitting can the population endure before there aren’t enough people to do metas?

A possible alternative would be that selection of hard mode generates a debuff that cuts player damage, armor and health by 1/3 (not a hard number, just an example). This would be the functional equivalent of buffing mobs, but without the need for a separate server. This would be less challenge than a hard server in group events, since other players might not be affected. However, since it would just be putting a divisor into formulae for that player, it would not split the players up, and should take less resources to implement.

As someone who understands why its more palatable to select a hard mode than to self-hamper by taking off gear, it’s my hope that this idea would allow for a similar experience to a hard server. Functionally, self-reduction is still self-reduction, but at least this allows players to fully gear and trait out a character and pit that character against PvE. I recognize, though, that some might not like the idea of others (not in hard mode) with the exact same build doing more damage in the same events. Hey, it’s an idea. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it.

Come to think of it, if they’re just putting in a check box which adds one function to various formulae, they could do multiple options for the performance reduction divisor, potentially serving a larger group of players.

Heh … if they ever announce the equivalent of hard mode I’ll have to invest heavily in t1-4 stuff.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

Andraus.3874:

Really you could just put on an outfit and take all your armor off and use a white stat weapon. Interesting idea tho.

It would not be the same. Just would not.

I’m trying to help both Anet and myself here. A true game-Plus would sustain my interest for several more months, at least. I’m already looking for something else to play.

There are many, many reasons to play PvE. Putting in all this work for the new must play as the rewards are better gameplay is pointless. Having your stats dropped won’t really make a difference in a zurg. Also it would open up balance problem. As nice of an idea as it is, if you want that feeling, just ToK a character to 80, equip white or blue gear and have at the game.

You can nerf yourself anytime you want. wooden potatoes has a permadeath series too, you can do that.

try playing beyond pve

They’re not going to split certain players off to a different server. They removed the entire concept of servers from PvE because it doesn’t work for their design and population.

Similarly, even a personal debuff “hard mode” doesn’t work for their design. There’s nothing hard about being the only guy in a zerg with an 80% stat debuff or whatever. It would be a completely exploitable difficulty/reward adjustement that would be instantly games by the player base to wring the reward from it for virtually no risk.

The entire concept of new game plus simply doesn’t work in a shared space like an MMO.