Guild Wars 2

I’m not writing this to start a flame war I’m just pointing something out to the devs because I care about the game. I’ve played many an mmo and I’ve noticed a trend that seems to hurt players of certain classes more then others that seems to have krept into this title as well of late. I would hope that future patches would address this more logically when the balance for pvp bleeds over into pve.

In every game I’ve played that’s had semi-modern weaponry in a fantasy setting there seems to be this notion that a magical elf fireball does WAY more damage then grenades, bombs, stabs to the heart, poisons, bullets, or other highly destructive weapons of war.

Five minutes talking to any medical professional or military medical doctor who’s worked in the field during wartime will tell any of you how hard it is to keep people alive who have been in an explosion, been hit my grenades or mines, been shot even grazed in a limb, been stabbed thru the chest, been poisoned by poisons cooked up in a lab, or who’ve been horribly burned by chemical fires or acid.

Yet when I’ve played any of the fantasy games the theme of the “balance classes for pvp” seems to always be the same. Let’s make the magic so much more powerful then anything else in the game.

When did it become the norm that weapons of war and assassination should step aside to allow fairy magic to dominate the worlds of class balancing? When did it become okay that bullets can’t seem to keep up with even the simplest of spells? When did it become okay to allow pvp balance issues to affect pve gameplay?

A few examples of what’s broken: (oddly all with the scout or adventurer professions)

1. pistols fire as slowly as rifles do yet do half the damage
2. there doesn’t seem to be a big blast sniper style shot from stealth for thieves
3. even the headshot ability for thieves isn’t a big damage finisher
4. bombs, grenades don’t scale with gear and do just as little damage as pistols do
5. bleed, poisons can’t keep up with burn damage output
6. the most agile of ranged classes can’t shoot more then one arrow at a time for the #1 longbow ability and can’t do as much damage with their #1 shot as a warrior less skilled in this weapon as warriors are not focused on ranged, and shoots slower then the already slow pistol shots
7. kits don’t give temporary buffs when equipped but the temporary weapons of elementalists are (one of the most OP classes of the game)
8. if positioning is important why is it that shadowstep or shadowshot never put a thief behind an enemy? or that enemies aren’t slowed when one blinds them while going into stealth to backstab? (chased I dunno how many minizombies while in stealth because they ran off like Honey boo boo child on her energy drink across the entire map)
9. no option for ranger to put a fire zone down or use flame arrows without an AOE
10. no option for explosive arrows
11. acid attacks and fumigation attacks hardly do anything to enemies even those who would normally be weakened tremendously by these attacks (EG)

Isn’t it time to finally fix the glaring issues with the leatherwearing bunch so that normal pve gameplay can resume and can we have a little more honesty when it comes to the issues of balance because what will hurt more, a magic missile from a harry potter fan waving a stick or an Armor Piercing Bullet?

Edit: I would like to add that I’m not a pvp player at all, I’m speaking solely from a PVE standpoint.

realism has no place in a fantasy game when thinking in terms of balance. Sorry..but just because you think a bullet should do more than a sceptre, doesnt mean it should. If you want full on Sci Fi or War hero..then go play it. Pistols and rifles cant be the same damage..you can wield two pistols, you can not wield 2 rifles..that would be awesome though. Anyways, I can get off 3 unloads in the time it takes for one deadshot..I do about 6-8k on an unload so its pretty equivalent.

There’s a lot wrong with your post, but let me highlight one point in particular:
kits don’t give temporary buffs when equipped but the temporary weapons of elementalists are (one of the most OP classes of the game)

Well you must be doing SOMETHING wrong, as whenever I swap a weapon kit as an engineer, I get 5 seconds of swiftness and vigor.

Mungrul.9358:

There’s a lot wrong with your post, but let me highlight one point in particular:
kits don’t give temporary buffs when equipped but the temporary weapons of elementalists are (one of the most OP classes of the game)

Well you must be doing SOMETHING wrong, as whenever I swap a weapon kit as an engineer, I get 5 seconds of swiftness and vigor.

Yeah and you have to trait for them to get it. My point was that other weapons for other classes give them boons when they equip even from sigils. Engineers don’t even get sigil boons or countdowns.

Balance comes before realism. That’s why melee are able to hack through a pile of rocks with their swords faster than an engineer can blow it up with grenades.

Ditton.3149:

realism has no place in a fantasy game when thinking in terms of balance. Sorry..but just because you think a bullet should do more than a sceptre, doesnt mean it should. If you want full on Sci Fi or War hero..then go play it. Pistols and rifles cant be the same damage..you can wield two pistols, you can not wield 2 rifles..that would be awesome though. Anyways, I can get off 3 unloads in the time it takes for one deadshot..I do about 6-8k on an unload so its pretty equivalent.

That’s a nice logical fallacy you have there. Let me fix it for you. Sure it’s a fantasy game with RL weapons included. Since the RL weapons are in there one would think there would be more logic involved with the balancing of the power of those weapons other then cutting them off entirely. If they didn’t want to have the challenge of balancing RL weapons of war then why put them into a fantasy game in the first place, why not make all weapons including those of war all magical all the time for it to be truly a fantasy setting.

Basically you’re saying that it’s still okay even if the engineers suddenly could drop a nuclear bomb for enemies to be perfectly fine after being hit by that despite the knowledge otherwise just because it’s a game. There’s still a basic scale to be used for these weapons to compare damage output. All anyone’s asking for is a more logical approach to that scaling.

ThiBash.5634:

Balance comes before realism. That’s why melee are able to hack through a pile of rocks with their swords faster than an engineer can blow it up with grenades.

You’ve just made my point for me. On second glance I think you did that on purpose? LOL

Ditton.3149:

realism has no place in a fantasy game when thinking in terms of balance. Sorry..but just because you think a bullet should do more than a sceptre, doesnt mean it should. If you want full on Sci Fi or War hero..then go play it. Pistols and rifles cant be the same damage..you can wield two pistols, you can not wield 2 rifles..that would be awesome though. Anyways, I can get off 3 unloads in the time it takes for one deadshot..I do about 6-8k on an unload so its pretty equivalent.

Let me ask you this, are you wearing all berserker gear? Because if you are that’s the second effect of what I’m talking about. The problem when it comes to lack of logic and lack of scaling damage of attacks properly based on a realistic system is that often, the changes used to balance gameplay will pigeonhole people into a single style.

If you are indeed wearing berserker gear with all pow/pre/% crit damage that my friend is also a secondary effect of this model that forced people to play in only one spec choice. Also I believe not part of what their original overall plan for this game to be. I don’t think they wanted to pigeonhole people into only one viable style but causing unnecessary imbalance by not measuring weapons on a logical scale will ultimately lead to that every time.

So you’re saying that bullets, bombs, grenades, etc. do more damage than magic in real life? Ok, I’ll give you that one. But, I’m pretty sure the same medical professionals would tell you they have no idea how hard it would be to treat the victims of magical elf fireballs.

Further, I don’t really see these magical attacks particularly OP at the moment in-game. Maybe some of them here or there, but no more than some other classes more physical attacks.

I think class balance is paramount, and rangers and engineers certainly need some dev attention. Thieves – not so much, but that’s just personal opinion. I also don’t see ele’s as an uber-OP class right now, but that might just be me.

In short, I think all classes should be on a more-or-less equal footing. Still a lot of room for improvement on that score.

tigirius.9014:

Ditton.3149:

realism has no place in a fantasy game when thinking in terms of balance. Sorry..but just because you think a bullet should do more than a sceptre, doesnt mean it should. If you want full on Sci Fi or War hero..then go play it. Pistols and rifles cant be the same damage..you can wield two pistols, you can not wield 2 rifles..that would be awesome though. Anyways, I can get off 3 unloads in the time it takes for one deadshot..I do about 6-8k on an unload so its pretty equivalent.

That’s a nice logical fallacy you have there. Let me fix it for you. Sure it’s a fantasy game with RL weapons included. Since the RL weapons are in there one would think there would be more logic involved with the balancing of the power of those weapons other then cutting them off entirely. If they didn’t want to have the challenge of balancing RL weapons of war then why put them into a fantasy game in the first place, why not make all weapons including those of war all magical all the time for it to be truly a fantasy setting.

Basically you’re saying that it’s still okay even if the engineers suddenly could drop a nuclear bomb for enemies to be perfectly fine after being hit by that despite the knowledge otherwise just because it’s a game. There’s still a basic scale to be used for these weapons to compare damage output. All anyone’s asking for is a more logical approach to that scaling.

its not a logical fallacy..because comparing magic which doesnt exist to science fiction that doesnt exist is not logical, its theoretical at best. What you are saying is that you want them to limit their imagination and what things can do to line up better with physically accurate real life proportions, which I think is stupid. I think they should just do what they are doing and balance the numbers and systems in the game, let the pseudo realism be kitten

Oh and no..Im not wearing all berserker gear. If you mean should we have more skills and or options then yeah I agree with that much, id love a few more options in combat. I just dont think balance and real world physics applications have anything to do with one another in game mechanics.

Ditton.3149:

tigirius.9014:

Ditton.3149:

realism has no place in a fantasy game when thinking in terms of balance. Sorry..but just because you think a bullet should do more than a sceptre, doesnt mean it should. If you want full on Sci Fi or War hero..then go play it. Pistols and rifles cant be the same damage..you can wield two pistols, you can not wield 2 rifles..that would be awesome though. Anyways, I can get off 3 unloads in the time it takes for one deadshot..I do about 6-8k on an unload so its pretty equivalent.

That’s a nice logical fallacy you have there. Let me fix it for you. Sure it’s a fantasy game with RL weapons included. Since the RL weapons are in there one would think there would be more logic involved with the balancing of the power of those weapons other then cutting them off entirely. If they didn’t want to have the challenge of balancing RL weapons of war then why put them into a fantasy game in the first place, why not make all weapons including those of war all magical all the time for it to be truly a fantasy setting.

Basically you’re saying that it’s still okay even if the engineers suddenly could drop a nuclear bomb for enemies to be perfectly fine after being hit by that despite the knowledge otherwise just because it’s a game. There’s still a basic scale to be used for these weapons to compare damage output. All anyone’s asking for is a more logical approach to that scaling.

its not a logical fallacy..because comparing magic which doesnt exist to science fiction that doesnt exist is not logical, its theoretical at best. What you are saying is that you want them to limit their imagination and what things can do to line up better with physically accurate real life proportions, which I think is stupid. I think they should just do what they are doing and balance the numbers and systems in the game, let the pseudo realism be kitten

Oh and no..Im not wearing all berserker gear. If you mean should we have more skills and or options then yeah I agree with that much, id love a few more options in combat. I just dont think balance and real world physics applications have anything to do with one another in game mechanics.

Uhm I hate to break it to you but they have already invented and used for years explosives, guns, pistols, rifles, grenades, flame throwers, chemical weapons, chemical guns, piercing bullets, explosive bullets, incendiary bullets just to name a few out of the arsenal that the engineers alone have and that’s leaving out the older weapons (but which should be more deadly) arrows, daggers, poisons. Soooo where is the scifi again?

All this is about is asking them for a more honest approach because they aren’t scaling these weapons in a logical manner and magic always seems to be the most powerful weapon in these games, it breaks the lore, if magic were as powerful as the imbalance they create by not scaling with these details in mind, then there would be for example no need for the three factions to work together just send all elementalists and guardians into the field and wipe the dragons off of the face of tyria. It’s obvious to anyone who has done the math.

No no…. we can keep going along this avenue of thought. Hold still while I summon a font of lava under your feet while calling down a meteor strike on your head.

funkin.3814:

So you’re saying that bullets, bombs, grenades, etc. do more damage than magic in real life? Ok, I’ll give you that one. But, I’m pretty sure the same medical professionals would tell you they have no idea how hard it would be to treat the victims of magical elf fireballs.

Further, I don’t really see these magical attacks particularly OP at the moment in-game. Maybe some of them here or there, but no more than some other classes more physical attacks.

I think class balance is paramount, and rangers and engineers certainly need some dev attention. Thieves – not so much, but that’s just personal opinion. I also don’t see ele’s as an uber-OP class right now, but that might just be me.

In short, I think all classes should be on a more-or-less equal footing. Still a lot of room for improvement on that score.

Actually was talking about guardians a little too tho i didn’t make that comparison sorry.

Thieves do need as much attention as the other classes because right now their really is no viable AOE choice for them. They are as cutoff from AOE as much as Mesmers are in their weapon choices and how they behave. Bouncing attacks can only go so far for tagging and oddly the old endgame style (the one we hope they’ll return us to ASAP) was focused on doing massive AOE to participate in events with any kind of rewards after participation.

Title says honest balance system, topic inside focuses on thieves.

Vakirauta.6397:

Title says honest balance system, topic inside focuses on thieves.

Meh, really more focused on making medium armor users stronger and making light armor users into fairy librarians and school teachers, or something.

Vakirauta.6397:

Title says honest balance system, topic inside focuses on thieves.

Actually the majority of the concerns I have focuses on engineers but I tried to keep a balance between the examples in my post.

tigirius.9014:

ThiBash.5634:

Balance comes before realism. That’s why melee are able to hack through a pile of rocks with their swords faster than an engineer can blow it up with grenades.

You’ve just made my point for me. On second glance I think you did that on purpose? LOL

Not really. I was kinda illustrating why what you’re asking simply isn’t viable. You would basically invalidate any warrior build except a rifle wielding one.

Also, I feel that you cannot state that magic is more or less powerful than bullets and grenades. It gets even more iffy with Asuran tech, which combines both. With your reasoning a Glyphic Rifle should be less powerful than a normal one. However you simply cannot create a MMO that way.

From the very start the grasp of the FANTASY world your playing in is lacking for you.
Logic has very minimal influence in FANTASY
Examples:
Never met a real world Ettin
Never met a Centaur
Never met a Minotaur
Never seen a hermit crab half my size that will chase me across the beach and be immune to near most anything.
Never seen a dragon….much less one with 4 or 5 smaller heads as a lower jaw with 2 sets of wings and what 4 or 5 tails….
Closest thing we have to Sylvari are Vegans…..
And if I ever meet a real life Charr….. um…. yea….. fight or flight will take over
Just some small but glaring examples of Fantasy ruling in a Fantasy world.
The problem with logic is…. well its too logical, un-imaginative and very very boring.

I’ve never been hit by a magical elf fireball.

I expect it really hurts. Because of the fire. And the magic.

And because it’s been shaped into a ball via the application of eldritch techniques.

tigirius.9014:

Yeah and you have to trait for them to get it. My point was that other weapons for other classes give them boons when they equip even from sigils. Engineers don’t even get sigil boons or countdowns.

Since you mentioned elementalists I figured you were meaning the stat boosts their conjured weapons now provide instead of boons. I’ll certainly agree that engineer’s kits need to either use their weapon’s stats or provide their own like conjured weapons do, but I’d like to point out that conjured weapons themselves don’t provide any boons on equip regardless of an elementalist’s traits.

…

Also when did elementalists suddenly go from being often perceived as underpowered to overpowered? I must have missed something somewhere. Is it just because people discovered that d/d can do some very nice burst damage or something?

tigirius.9014:

Vakirauta.6397:

Title says honest balance system, topic inside focuses on thieves.

Actually the majority of the concerns I have focuses on engineers but I tried to keep a balance between the examples in my post.

tigirius.9014:

1. kits don’t give temporary buffs when equipped but the temporary weapons of elementalists are (one of the most OP classes of the game)

You can not be serious.

I am overpowered? As an elementalist I think not, trying playing one, I have just been in a group, farming grawl in the Frostorge, and the thief in that part had each mob down to 30% before I could get my lightning whip out.

Sorry OP wrong just wrong

Let’s make this GTA1 – 1 hit, you’re dead. Or HoH mode of DMC – same. It’s because it’s fantasy, based somewhat on reality, that it plays like this and unlike what you’d prefer. Besides, I think a burning rock chucked at someone at high speed (consider the rock’s mass when it comes to its acceleration) would do much more damage than a tiny bullet.
What’s more, compared to the other MMOs, hell, RPGs in general, you can die pretty quickly in GW2, even if you have your 28k health points, instead of being a tower with 200k HP taking blows for half an hour before you fall. And thanks to scaling, the game makes sure you never take 0-1 damage from foes, just because you’re level 75 exploring a low level map. I like it better this way.
I like to think that because of the presence of magic or other mystical forces, creatures of fantastical lands are protected by them to a point (then again, cutscenes, CG cinematics and films based on games tend to tell us it’s not like it at all and people die really quickly (and that Phoenix Down doesn’t really work)).

I’d want to ask you then, what would be harder to heal – the effects of a grenade explosion, or a meteor strike? Because if we go with RL logic, ignoring balance, then the second should leave a mile-wide crater with nothing left to heal at all. Killing the caster in the process, by the way.

While on the one hand, I completely get what you’re saying…on the other hand, I have to ask why you want realism in the game where you’re fighting dragons with flamethrowers side-by-side with cat-people who are throwing ice spells at an approaching horde of robot golems?

I mean…really?