Guild Wars 2

The current resource system was designed to work well for the initial leveling experience, and it does. But it does not work well once you are max level, which is where you will spend the vast majority of your time. Leveling is the first few months at best, max level is everything else for the remainder of the game. As such, the resource system has 2 large issues:

1. Drop rates from bags are influenced by character level. Items stop being dropped from bags, or at least have their drop rates significantly reduced, in exchange for others, as you increase in level. Essentially, this PUNISHES people for actually playing characters by lowering the drop rates of needed items if you dare to actually max out your character. Instead, people have multiple characters they ACTIVELY DON’T PLAY just so they can use them to open bags.
2. Material nodes are based entirely on map level. So a level 80 map will only have T5 and T6 nodes. But since ALL FUTURE MAPS WILL BE LEVEL 80, we will NEVER get new sources of lower level materials. This forces people onto maps they have no interest in playing, which they have already completed, and on which they do not actually participate, but merely run around ignoring all events and enemies while they farm. This degrades the experience of all players on these lower level maps and causes issues with event completion and aggro swarming.

Drop rates and nodes distribution need to be changed to a progressive, rather than exclusive, model. You need to gain new drops from bags WITHOUT LOSING THE OLD ONES as you level, and new nodes types need to be added to maps WITHOUT REMOVING THE OLD ONES as map level increases. Being max level should let you obtain anything that can drop from bags and a max level map should have nodes of all tiers on it. The game should not punish you for leveling.

(Additionally, already the sources of T5 and T6 mats outnumber the sources of any other tiers by more than 2-1, and eventually, if the system is not changed, they will outnumber all other tiers combined.)

You may have missed the recent addition of Unstable Rag, Unstable Metal Chunk and Unstable Hide. All available in the newer L80 maps.

Good luck.

I don’t know about you, but as often as I play, I don’t “actively play” most of my toons. It’s simply mathematically improbable; I’d have to make a concerted effort for it to be otherwise.

Having mid-tier loot drop more often for mid-tier toons also helps newer players earn gold from impatient veterans. Make it easier for veterans to gain T4 loot helps you & I, but it hurts those starting the game this year.

What you see as a problem, I see as a clever way to redistribute wealth.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You may have missed the recent addition of Unstable Rag, Unstable Metal Chunk and Unstable Hide. All available in the newer L80 maps.

Good luck.

A minor workaround that barely admits there is an issue is not a solution.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

The current resource system was designed to work well for the initial leveling experience, and it does. But it does not work well once you are max level, which is where you will spend the vast majority of your time. Leveling is the first few months at best, max level is everything else for the remainder of the game. As such, the resource system has 2 large issues:

1. Drop rates from bags are influenced by character level. Items stop being dropped from bags, or at least have their drop rates significantly reduced, in exchange for others, as you increase in level. Essentially, this PUNISHES people for actually playing characters by lowering the drop rates of needed items if you dare to actually max out your character. Instead, people have multiple characters they ACTIVELY DON’T PLAY just so they can use them to open bags.
2. Material nodes are based entirely on map level. So a level 80 map will only have T5 and T6 nodes. But since ALL FUTURE MAPS WILL BE LEVEL 80, we will NEVER get new sources of lower level materials. This forces people onto maps they have no interest in playing, which they have already completed, and on which they do not actually participate, but merely run around ignoring all events and enemies while they farm. This degrades the experience of all players on these lower level maps and causes issues with event completion and aggro swarming.

Drop rates and nodes distribution need to be changed to a progressive, rather than exclusive, model. You need to gain new drops from bags WITHOUT LOSING THE OLD ONES as you level, and new nodes types need to be added to maps WITHOUT REMOVING THE OLD ONES as map level increases. Being max level should let you obtain anything that can drop from bags and a max level map should have nodes of all tiers on it. The game should not punish you for leveling.

(Additionally, already the sources of T5 and T6 mats outnumber the sources of any other tiers by more than 2-1, and eventually, if the system is not changed, they will outnumber all other tiers combined.)

This is working as intended as selling lower tier mats they earn while leveling to end game consumers gives newer players more valuable loot. It also gives incentive to endgame players to populate the old maps (or pay a premium for those mats).

Its a great way to transfer some gold from veterans to newbies and helps keeping the wealth gap in check.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You may have missed the recent addition of Unstable Rag, Unstable Metal Chunk and Unstable Hide. All available in the newer L80 maps.

Good luck.

A minor workaround that barely admits there is an issue is not a solution.

I’m not sure how minor it is, if as you say, everyone is in end-game maps.

(Of course, everyone is not in end-game maps, but, still….)

I think the system is working as intended. It encourages max level players to play in lower level maps, which helps the new players out since there will be experienced players there to help with events and just to talk/answer questions about the game. You wouldn’t find this if all tiers of mats were available on nodes on lvl 80 maps.

The way that drops change as you levelup does annoy me though, but mostly because its so inconsistent. At level 80 I get just as many minor sigils from bags as I did when my character was level 20, yet I will never, ever use a minor sigil on my level 80 character.

If by bags you mean champion bags or the like, you’re correct. If you mean things like Medium Moldy Bags or the many enemy specific resource bags, you’re not.

What you see as a problem I see as deliberate system design. I’m opposed to solutions that make it easier for players to bypass the intended requirement to spend more time pursuing endgame goals. If long-term goals need to exist — and it’s obvious to me that ANet thinks they do — then I’m in their corner if the reason for the request is rooted in player impatience, which is usually the case.

ANet admitted when they introduced Ascended that they badly overestimated the time it would take players to get their exotic gear. At the same time, they said they thought people would sell the mats for higher prices. Those observations were rooted in the low amount of mats needed, the plethora of mats available and the lack of any requirement for lower tier mats for exotic gear.

ANet “fixed” that with Ascended (and other endgame goals). Whether they went too far is a matter of perspective. If your motivation is to finish endgame goal X faster, the answer is, “Yes.” If your motivation is something else, well, mats like Linen are at a price where it’s actually worth farming (if one is inclined), and the same is true for other lower-tier mats, so, “No.”

So where are the problems (we know that any system designed by humans is likely to have some)? My answer is that they are in imbalances within tiers. For instance, T6 leather is at a much higher price than metal, and T6 cloth is in the toilet by comparison.

There’s also the scaling issue, if there is one. Down-scaling does not produce a level-equivalent experience, although it’s better than it once was. So, the question is, “Would farming lower-level zones for mats be more compelling with greater challenge, or is allowing max level players to farm faster by killing mobs faster the way to go?”

I do think its important that downscaling is not increased. Players should have an advantage for being a higher level in a lower level map

Boogiepop Void.6473:

This forces people onto maps they have no interest in playing, which they have already completed, and on which they do not actually participate, but merely run around ignoring all events and enemies while they farm. This degrades the experience of all players on these lower level maps and causes issues with event completion and aggro swarming..

This here is not an existing problem. In fact it’s a huge foundation for the game and a big selling point for so many of us. The ability to have fun, run around old maps at will and still get relevant rewards is of enormous importance for this game. If anything it improves the experience for lower levels since I have rarely seen events ignored by downscaled passerbys. Most ppl see an active event en route – they join in.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet admitted when they introduced Ascended that they badly overestimated the time it would take players to get their exotic gear.

fify

OriOri.8724:

I think the system is working as intended. It encourages max level players to play in lower level maps, which helps the new players out since there will be experienced players there to help with events and just to talk/answer questions about the game. You wouldn’t find this if all tiers of mats were available on nodes on lvl 80 maps.

The way that drops change as you levelup does annoy me though, but mostly because its so inconsistent. At level 80 I get just as many minor sigils from bags as I did when my character was level 20, yet I will never, ever use a minor sigil on my level 80 character.

One of the bigger issues with the downleveling tactic is that the drops we get from open-world mobs might be zone-appropriate (good for farming materials of that level) or character-appropriate (a level 80 green is relatively useless).
The map rewards that give cloth/leather of that tier are muddied with other, less important materials. It’s a good system overall, just weighted oddly for something that gets spent by the hundred.

I’d actually feel better about going into lower level zones if I’d stop getting greens and below that were below level 80.

Wanze.8410:

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet admitted when they introduced Ascended that they badly overestimated the time it would take players to get their exotic gear.

fify

Yeah, thanks. Hazards of posting late at night.

Randulf.7614:

This here is not an existing problem. In fact it’s a huge foundation for the game and a big selling point for so many of us. The ability to have fun, run around old maps at will and still get relevant rewards is of enormous importance for this game. If anything it improves the experience for lower levels since I have rarely seen events ignored by downscaled passerbys. Most ppl see an active event en route – they join in.

I have no problem with the ABILITY to go to maps and have fun IF YOU WANT TO. But a lot of the people on these maps are not there for fun, they are merely running from node to node, ignoring all other players and enemies, degrading rather than contributing to the fun of people who actually want to be there by triggering improper scaling in events, causing population capping issues, and dragging trains around the map.

We want the population of maps to want to be there and to be participating. The level scaling allows this to happen and is a great system. The node issue has the opposite effect.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

I have no problem with the ABILITY to go to maps and have fun IF YOU WANT TO. But a lot of the people on these maps are not there for fun, they are merely running from node to node, ignoring all other players and enemies, degrading rather than contributing to the fun of people who actually want to be there by triggering improper scaling in events, causing population capping issues, and dragging trains around the map.

We want the population of maps to want to be there and to be participating. The level scaling allows this to happen and is a great system. The node issue has the opposite effect.

This is generally untrue. Node farmers are not present long enough or in great enough numbers to impact scaling, population caps, or mob trains.

1. Event scaling adapts quickly, so the few seconds a player spends mining a node isn’t going to affect the scaling, and if it does, it will downscale promptly after the node farmer leaves.
2. Low level maps are almost never at population cap unless a World Boss fight is currently happening, in which case the node farmers are not the ones causing the cap.
3. Mob trains can be annoying for appropriately-leveled players who run into them, however, the AI in this game is pretty dumb and it shouldn’t take you more than 2 minutes to figure out how to avoid having a mob train ruin your day.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Randulf.7614:

This here is not an existing problem. In fact it’s a huge foundation for the game and a big selling point for so many of us. The ability to have fun, run around old maps at will and still get relevant rewards is of enormous importance for this game. If anything it improves the experience for lower levels since I have rarely seen events ignored by downscaled passerbys. Most ppl see an active event en route – they join in.

I have no problem with the ABILITY to go to maps and have fun IF YOU WANT TO. But a lot of the people on these maps are not there for fun, they are merely running from node to node, ignoring all other players and enemies, degrading rather than contributing to the fun of people who actually want to be there by triggering improper scaling in events, causing population capping issues, and dragging trains around the map.

We want the population of maps to want to be there and to be participating. The level scaling allows this to happen and is a great system. The node issue has the opposite effect.

On behalf of all who enjoy gathering, and running around node to node, kitten kitteny kittens skritty skritt kitten!

Rauderi.8706:

I’d actually feel better about going into lower level zones if I’d stop getting greens and below that were below level 80.

That’s how it was at launch. A lot of people asked for (and ANet agreed) that it would be better if at least some of the rewards were consistent with the zone’s level.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Randulf.7614:

This here is not an existing problem. In fact it’s a huge foundation for the game and a big selling point for so many of us. The ability to have fun, run around old maps at will and still get relevant rewards is of enormous importance for this game. If anything it improves the experience for lower levels since I have rarely seen events ignored by downscaled passerbys. Most ppl see an active event en route – they join in.

I have no problem with the ABILITY to go to maps and have fun IF YOU WANT TO. But a lot of the people on these maps are not there for fun, they are merely running from node to node, ignoring all other players and enemies, degrading rather than contributing to the fun of people who actually want to be there by triggering improper scaling in events, causing population capping issues, and dragging trains around the map.

We want the population of maps to want to be there and to be participating. The level scaling allows this to happen and is a great system. The node issue has the opposite effect.

The node issue actually brings more people participating. W/o them, the maps would be almost empty and no one would be participating. The issue you are describing barely exists because most ppl generally do participate between nodes if something pops up. I have certainly never in 4 years seen irregular scaling of normal events due to node farmers. I would be surprised if that was an issue anywhere in the game.

I don’t really mind it. It’s a boon to new players that will be able to have a decent sized cache when they hit 80. I think having the game be more welcoming to new players is far more important than veteran players’ wealth who can always afford an excess character slot anyways. And if they can’t, then they really don’t need the more expensive materials.

Besides, if 80s could easily get things like wool and rugged leather, then they wouldn’t be worth much anyways and it’d be just as a non issue as mithril or silk. And then people would complain they are worthless.

Drop rates from bags are influenced by character level. Items stop being dropped from bags, or at least have their drop rates significantly reduced, in exchange for others, as you increase in level. Essentially, this PUNISHES people for actually playing characters by lowering the drop rates of needed items if you dare to actually max out your character. Instead, people have multiple characters they ACTIVELY DON’T PLAY just so they can use them to open bags.

Why do you need multiple bag openers? Just one is good enough and that slot can be recycled for key farming or whatnot.

This also ignores the opportunity cost of reserving a slot for said purpose.

But since ALL FUTURE MAPS WILL BE LEVEL 80, we will NEVER get new sources of lower level materials. This forces people onto maps they have no interest in playing, which they have already completed, and on which they do not actually participate, but merely run around ignoring all events and enemies while they farm.

This is complete nonsense and suggests either you haven’t played the LS3 maps or weren’t paying attention.

Unstable salvageable items salvage into mid-level materials and are found in all of the LS3 maps. These maps give far MORE mats then the other level 80 maps. Objectively speaking, the direction has been towards more access towards mid level materials in level 80 zones. In fact these are the places a level 80 should be going if they want to farm some. And there was also Wintersday, where players could purchase bundles with mid-level mats with karma; further proof that they’re making these materials more accessible.

In addition these were also added to WvW tracks, which gives more accessibility as well.

The “problem” is being solved already.

And even if you ignore all that, you could always forge karma gear from hearts and salvage mid-level materials too.

Finally, why do you even need those materials as a level 80?
https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/46741-Bolt-of-Damask

The cost of making these isn’t even that far off from the price of placing a buy order. During some times of day, Damask is being made at a loss. Ascended armor is overpriced anyways; what’s another 50 gold?
The only real problem is leather:
https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/46739-Elonian-Leather-Square

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Rauderi.8706:

I’d actually feel better about going into lower level zones if I’d stop getting greens and below that were below level 80.

That’s how it was at launch. A lot of people asked for (and ANet agreed) that it would be better if at least some of the rewards were consistent with the zone’s level.

I’m aware of the history of it. After the occasional but heavy-handed pokes some of our materials have gotten, it might be time to revert that change. The RNG in LS3 zones are still giving out random tiers, which means T3-4 cloth/leather isn’t funneling in fast enough.

ArchonWing.9480:

The only real problem is leather:
https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/46739-Elonian-Leather-Square

I have even less T4 leather than I do linen. Random drops in level-appropriate zones aren’t providing enough because a good number of them end up being L80, and the LS3-RNG scraps aren’t providing enough either.

And thinking of it from a lowbie point of view, if those materials are so scarce, a crafter can’t afford to sell those materials anyway. Sure, my first level 40 thief/leatherworker could sell his materials, but what’s he going to actually advance his crafting with?

Re: Buy gear and Mystic Forge: It’s a plausible, if irritating workaround. Looots of clicks to get one or two scraps that still need to be refined. It might be a nice idea to have a karma vendor in Lion’s Arch that actually just sells small amounts of the material, on a limited buy. Take the cost of the go-to item, for example Crab Grabbin’ Gloves, charge a convenience markup, and limit the buy per day. It could even use the multi-tier purchasing like some of the holiday vendors use.
6,400 Karma: 10 Linen (once per day)
8,000 Karma: 10 Linen (etc)
If that’s too much, tweak the numbers down appropriately:
2560 Karma: 4 Rugged Leather (1/day)
3200 Karma: 4 Rugged Leather (etc)

If there’s a worry that a vendor would take away from the zones, put them into the zones. It would drive traffic into the mid-tier zones and give players a direct semi-farm to get materials that are otherwise driven by whimsical RNG.

Rauderi.8706:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Rauderi.8706:

I’d actually feel better about going into lower level zones if I’d stop getting greens and below that were below level 80.

That’s how it was at launch. A lot of people asked for (and ANet agreed) that it would be better if at least some of the rewards were consistent with the zone’s level.

I’m aware of the history of it. After the occasional but heavy-handed pokes some of our materials have gotten, it might be time to revert that change. The RNG in LS3 zones are still giving out random tiers, and the LS3-RNG scraps aren’t providing enough either.

ArchonWing.9480:

The only real problem is leather:
https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/46739-Elonian-Leather-Square

I have even less T4 leather than I do linen. Random drops in level-appropriate zones aren’t providing enough because a good number of them end up being L80 and the LS3-RNG scraps aren’t providing enough either.

Which lower levels won’t have a problem with. Of course they’re not going to drop for you.

The last few times I leveled normally, I salvaged things nonstop and stockpiled a bunch of linen, wool, etc. At some points I would be selling green armor for 7s a pop. Easily enough to self-gear the character. It’s why the system works as it does.

If you want stuff from LS3, you can also spend your unbound magic on these:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic-Warped_Packet
or
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic-Warped_Bundle
Sell materials and buy what you need.

You can get unbound magic by consuming winterberries too.

And thinking of it from a lowbie point of view, if those materials are so scarce, a crafter can’t afford to sell those materials anyway. Sure, my first level 40 thief/leatherworker could sell his materials, but what’s he going to actually advance his crafting with?

Read above.

They don’t need to craft at all. Just save up gold from selling materials and buy equipment

Re: Buy gear and Mystic Forge: It’s a plausible, if irritating workaround.

Well, consider that’s the reason why it’s profitable. People don’t want to do it, leaving the people that do.

ArchonWing.9480:

Which lower levels won’t have a problem with. Of course they’re not going to drop for you.

The last few times I leveled normally, I salvaged things nonstop and stockpiled a bunch of linen, wool, etc. At some points I would be selling green armor for 7s a pop. Easily enough to self-gear the character. It’s why the system works as it does.

So the solution to getting material at end-game is
…to make a level 40 character.
I shouldn’t have to mention how unusually skewed that is.

If you want stuff from LS3, you can also spend your unbound magic on these:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic-Warped_Packet
or
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic-Warped_Bundle
Sell materials and buy what you need.

Scanned the packets contents. 50s-1g for a chance at something useful?
Sell the materials? Yeah, that 10 Copper Ore drop is going to sell for much golds.
It ought to be obvious that the whole point of the discussion is that we’re done with dribbles and drops with frustrating RNG. Gambling unbound magic and gold to get something worth less than the gold value makes for horrible resource management.

And thinking of it from a lowbie point of view, if those materials are so scarce, a crafter can’t afford to sell those materials anyway. Sure, my first level 40 thief/leatherworker could sell his materials, but what’s he going to actually advance his crafting with?

Read above.
They don’t need to craft at all. Just save up gold from selling materials and buy equipment.

Then what about Ascended? That can’t be bought. Pieces, perhaps, but the actual crafting skill can’t be purchased without going back to buy all those materials that were sold earlier. It’s nonsensical.
Unless there’s more advocating for “I hope I get something useful” RNG drops from high-tier fractals (which need some Ascended gear) or if/however it happens in PvP/WvW. I haven’t bothered to check, but those game modes aren’t my thing.

My beef with the mats is the insignias. Specifically, the addition of a stupidly high number of cured hardened leather squares (along with the new legendary crafting system) to craft gossamer insignias – all without doing squat to increase the drop rate of hardened leather (gossamer is dirt cheap easy to get all the time, at least for me) has seriously made making exotics stupid expensive.

Last time I looked, TP prices put the sections at about 24 silver. It appears that the USE of hardened leather was increased, but the drop rate wasn’t.

I’d rather have a root canal without anesthesia than try to “farm” hardened leather.

The rest of the mat farming I see as mostly an intact system, but IMHO, every exotic should salvage out AT LEAST ONE hardened leather section because 30 went into making it, regardless of the armor type. In EVERY exotic armor piece, the insignias require far more mats than the rest of the armor. But one normally only gets the lesser thing (like mithril from heavy armor). Do that, and I think the problem with hardened leather would go away.

Fix the hardened leather situation and you’re mostly good for everything else. Folks may complain about things, but the only really “broken” mat I see is getting hardened leather.

If this isn’t the case for everyone, then maybe the drop rate algorithms for the individual players need to be looked at.

mathion.8549:

Last time I looked, TP prices put the sections at about 24 silver. It appears that the USE of hardened leather was increased, but the drop rate wasn’t.

Last time I looked it was below 20s already.

How does it feel complaining about something they just announced to change with the next update?

mathion.8549:

My beef with the mats is the insignias. Specifically, the addition of a stupidly high number of cured hardened leather squares (along with the new legendary crafting system) to craft gossamer insignias – all without doing squat to increase the drop rate of hardened leather (gossamer is dirt cheap easy to get all the time, at least for me) has seriously made making exotics stupid expensive.

Last time I looked, TP prices put the sections at about 24 silver. It appears that the USE of hardened leather was increased, but the drop rate wasn’t.

I’d rather have a root canal without anesthesia than try to “farm” hardened leather.

The rest of the mat farming I see as mostly an intact system, but IMHO, every exotic should salvage out AT LEAST ONE hardened leather section because 30 went into making it, regardless of the armor type. In EVERY exotic armor piece, the insignias require far more mats than the rest of the armor. But one normally only gets the lesser thing (like mithril from heavy armor). Do that, and I think the problem with hardened leather would go away.

Fix the hardened leather situation and you’re mostly good for everything else. Folks may complain about things, but the only really “broken” mat I see is getting hardened leather.

If this isn’t the case for everyone, then maybe the drop rate algorithms for the individual players need to be looked at.

Did you miss the big announcement in this very sub-forum? If so, check out Mike O’Brien’s thread. You may find it enlightening.

Good luck.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

mathion.8549:

My beef with the mats is the insignias. Specifically, the addition of a stupidly high number of cured hardened leather squares (along with the new legendary crafting system) to craft gossamer insignias – all without doing squat to increase the drop rate of hardened leather (gossamer is dirt cheap easy to get all the time, at least for me) has seriously made making exotics stupid expensive.

Last time I looked, TP prices put the sections at about 24 silver. It appears that the USE of hardened leather was increased, but the drop rate wasn’t.

I’d rather have a root canal without anesthesia than try to “farm” hardened leather.

The rest of the mat farming I see as mostly an intact system, but IMHO, every exotic should salvage out AT LEAST ONE hardened leather section because 30 went into making it, regardless of the armor type. In EVERY exotic armor piece, the insignias require far more mats than the rest of the armor. But one normally only gets the lesser thing (like mithril from heavy armor). Do that, and I think the problem with hardened leather would go away.

Fix the hardened leather situation and you’re mostly good for everything else. Folks may complain about things, but the only really “broken” mat I see is getting hardened leather.

If this isn’t the case for everyone, then maybe the drop rate algorithms for the individual players need to be looked at.

Did you miss the big announcement in this very sub-forum? If so, check out Mike O’Brien’s thread. You may find it enlightening.

Good luck.

About ANets solution to the problem. Well first it remains to be seen how easy it will be to farm leather, which will dictate how much the price of leather falls. But really I am extremely curious, like a few others, as to why Anet didn’t just decrease the amount of leather needed in recipes instead of introducing new sources of leather? I feel like it would have been much easier to just

• Decrease number of raw leather needed for refinement by 1 piece and/or
• Decrease the amount of leather needed to make patches by ~40%

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

OriOri.8724:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

mathion.8549:

My beef with the mats is the insignias. Specifically, the addition of a stupidly high number of cured hardened leather squares (along with the new legendary crafting system) to craft gossamer insignias – all without doing squat to increase the drop rate of hardened leather (gossamer is dirt cheap easy to get all the time, at least for me) has seriously made making exotics stupid expensive.

Last time I looked, TP prices put the sections at about 24 silver. It appears that the USE of hardened leather was increased, but the drop rate wasn’t.

I’d rather have a root canal without anesthesia than try to “farm” hardened leather.

The rest of the mat farming I see as mostly an intact system, but IMHO, every exotic should salvage out AT LEAST ONE hardened leather section because 30 went into making it, regardless of the armor type. In EVERY exotic armor piece, the insignias require far more mats than the rest of the armor. But one normally only gets the lesser thing (like mithril from heavy armor). Do that, and I think the problem with hardened leather would go away.

Fix the hardened leather situation and you’re mostly good for everything else. Folks may complain about things, but the only really “broken” mat I see is getting hardened leather.

If this isn’t the case for everyone, then maybe the drop rate algorithms for the individual players need to be looked at.

Did you miss the big announcement in this very sub-forum? If so, check out Mike O’Brien’s thread. You may find it enlightening.

Good luck.

About ANets solution to the problem. Well first it remains to be seen how easy it will be to farm leather, which will dictate how much the price of leather falls. But really I am extremely curious, like a few others, as to why Anet didn’t just decrease the amount of leather needed in recipes instead of introducing new sources of leather? I feel like it would have been much easier to just

• Decrease number of raw leather needed for refinement by 1 piece and/or
• Decrease the amount of leather needed to make patches by ~40%

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

No idea. I’m sure Mike and the other Devs have more information to decide what’s best for the game and the game’s economy. It’s probably a bit early to comment on how good or bad it will be, since the players have yet to experience the new content, or see what the ramifications are.

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

At a guess, it’s ANet doing what they often do: trying to address multiple issues with one change. The issues, as I see them:

1. There’s never enough stuff to do. Adding repeatable content players will want to do is a good thing.
2. New leather supply will address some peoples’ concerns about the materials issue.
3. It’s being billed as “challenging.” If it is, then it’s something else to scratch that itch.

IndigoSundown.5419:

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

At a guess, it’s ANet doing what they often do: trying to address multiple issues with one change. The issues, as I see them:

1. There’s never enough stuff to do. Adding repeatable content players will want to do is a good thing.
2. New leather supply will address some peoples’ concerns about the materials issue.
3. It’s being billed as “challenging.” If it is, then it’s something else to scratch that itch.

Plus, changing the recipe will cause a different set of problems which are harder to address. There isn’t a simple happy medium as some want to believe.

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

Isaiah Cartwright mentioned their reasoning behind this during the AMA:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5e6uxb/a_crack_in_the_ice_devs_here_ask_us_anything/daa7qb8/?context=3

Wanze.8410:

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

Isaiah Cartwright mentioned their reasoning behind this during the AMA:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5e6uxb/a_crack_in_the_ice_devs_here_ask_us_anything/daa7qb8/?context=3

That’s a copout. They already changed the recipes before when HoT dropped, which is what led to leather getting in such a bad state that they felt they had to intervene again. Reverting some of those changes, not even all of them, is the better fix to this, since the changes are the root of the problem.

Isaiah says that changing recipes causes a static change in demand, which doesn’t often balance itself out. So the proper solution to this problem is to revert some of the illthought changes to recipes, since that is when leather stopped being able to balance itself out.

OriOri.8724:

Wanze.8410:

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

Isaiah Cartwright mentioned their reasoning behind this during the AMA:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5e6uxb/a_crack_in_the_ice_devs_here_ask_us_anything/daa7qb8/?context=3

That’s a copout. They already changed the recipes before when HoT dropped, which is what led to leather getting in such a bad state that they felt they had to intervene again. Reverting some of those changes, not even all of them, is the better fix to this, since the changes are the root of the problem.

Isaiah says that changing recipes causes a static change in demand, which doesn’t often balance itself out. So the proper solution to this problem is to revert some of the illthought changes to recipes, since that is when leather stopped being able to balance itself out.

Remind me again which recipes saw the amount of materials reduced in the past?

IC talked about reducing materials in a recipe which results in a static drop in demand.

OriOri.8724:

Isaiah says that changing recipes causes a static change in demand, which doesn’t often balance itself out. So the proper solution to this problem is to revert some of the illthought changes to recipes, since that is when leather stopped being able to balance itself out.

You keep saying it was a “bad” and “ill-thought” change and that “leather stopped being able to balance itself.” Both are statements of feeling, not of fact. It changed the dynamics so that leather hasn’t been vendor trash — that was a major, positive effect.

Remember when people complained about the similar changes to cloth? That the amounts were “bad” and “ill-thought” and that “silk stopped being able to balance itself?” Despite that, silk is running at below 30 copper, which is below gossamer (something that people thought impossible).

The only thing of which we can be reasonably sure is that balancing supply and demand is extremely difficult: there are no simple solutions, there’s no predictable “sweet spot” which ensures that panicked buyers don’t drive the prices up while ensuring that panicked sellers don’t drive it down. Even rumors of changes affect our behavior (ecto is up, leather is down despite the fact that nothing has changed yet, so we don’t know the impact of the AB/ML nerf, challenging-group leather farm).

In other words, there is no “proper solution”. There are just individual theories about what might/might not work. I’m inclined to trust ANet’s assessment on this rather than any of ours: despite the high price of leather, I can still buy all I need (even if I hate the price).

@Illconceived – I disagree that these are statements of feeling and not fact. If the changes to recipes that were made when HoT dropped were not ill thought out and bad changes then we wouldn’t be in this situation where Anet felt compelled to add a new leather source to the game to balance for those changes in the first place. Its a fact that leather prices rose when HoT dropped and changed recipes and added absolutely massive new sinks for leather. And its also a fact that ANet saw this as enough of a problem to devote developer time to coming up with a new leather farm.

OriOri.8724:

@Illconceived – I disagree that these are statements of feeling and not fact. If the changes to recipes that were made when HoT dropped were not ill thought out and bad changes then we wouldn’t be in this situation where Anet felt compelled to add a new leather source to the game to balance for those changes in the first place. Its a fact that leather prices rose when HoT dropped and changed recipes and added absolutely massive new sinks for leather. And its also a fact that ANet saw this as enough of a problem to devote developer time to coming up with a new leather farm.

You claimed that Anet adjusted recipes by taking off material requirements to ease demand, which they never did.

Wanze.8410:

OriOri.8724:

@Illconceived – I disagree that these are statements of feeling and not fact. If the changes to recipes that were made when HoT dropped were not ill thought out and bad changes then we wouldn’t be in this situation where Anet felt compelled to add a new leather source to the game to balance for those changes in the first place. Its a fact that leather prices rose when HoT dropped and changed recipes and added absolutely massive new sinks for leather. And its also a fact that ANet saw this as enough of a problem to devote developer time to coming up with a new leather farm.

You claimed that Anet adjusted recipes by taking off material requirements to ease demand, which they never did.

No, I claimed that Anet adjusted recipes, which in turn, by their own (although admittedly later) account, caused a static change in demand and which didn’t balance itself out. If it had, they would not have felt the need to introduce a new way to obtain leather.

Boogiepop Void.6473:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You may have missed the recent addition of Unstable Rag, Unstable Metal Chunk and Unstable Hide. All available in the newer L80 maps.

Good luck.

A minor workaround that barely admits there is an issue is not a solution.

There are the nodes in guild halls and WvW maps. WvW maps these are repeatable. So I see they are trying.

OriOri.8724:

Wanze.8410:

OriOri.8724:

@Illconceived – I disagree that these are statements of feeling and not fact. If the changes to recipes that were made when HoT dropped were not ill thought out and bad changes then we wouldn’t be in this situation where Anet felt compelled to add a new leather source to the game to balance for those changes in the first place. Its a fact that leather prices rose when HoT dropped and changed recipes and added absolutely massive new sinks for leather. And its also a fact that ANet saw this as enough of a problem to devote developer time to coming up with a new leather farm.

You claimed that Anet adjusted recipes by taking off material requirements to ease demand, which they never did.

No, I claimed that Anet adjusted recipes, which in turn, by their own (although admittedly later) account, caused a static change in demand and which didn’t balance itself out. If it had, they would not have felt the need to introduce a new way to obtain leather.

but we are talking about a static drop in demand, not a static change.

OriOri.8724:

@Illconceived – I disagree that these are statements of feeling and not fact. If the changes to recipes that were made when HoT dropped were not ill thought out and bad changes then we wouldn’t be in this situation where Anet felt compelled to add a new leather source to the game to balance for those changes in the first place. Its a fact that leather prices rose when HoT dropped and changed recipes and added absolutely massive new sinks for leather. And its also a fact that ANet saw this as enough of a problem to devote developer time to coming up with a new leather farm.

No matter what they did, someone was going to be annoyed and the balance wouldn’t have been perfect, so they would have had to change something. This isn’t the first time they overtuned too hard in one direction and had to pull back; it won’t be the last time

That doesn’t mean that their original change was ill-conceived (no pun intended); it just means that it wasn’t perfect, as happens to anyone who tries balancing rewards for an economy of this size.

So sure, they see that the balance isn’t where they want right now. All the same, notice how they aren’t reversing the recipes; they reported that they are adding a single new source.

tl;dr it’s an opinion that the original changes were bad

That’s a fair argument Illconceived.

IndigoSundown.5419:

OriOri.8724:

I wonder what the rationale was behind going through the extra work to make a whole new farm for leather instead of adjusting a few dozen (at most) numbers in recipes

At a guess, it’s ANet doing what they often do: trying to address multiple issues with one change. The issues, as I see them:

1. There’s never enough stuff to do. Adding repeatable content players will want to do is a good thing.
2. New leather supply will address some peoples’ concerns about the materials issue. <—
3. It’s being billed as “challenging.” If it is, then it’s something else to scratch that itch.

We had been itching for a direct farm for leather and cloth. Silk has dipped enough to be TP-buyable without much pain, but the leather issue is still getting out of hand at T5/6. Hopefully the direct farm that’s being floated covers T6 and we get a refinement adjustment for T5.

Wanze.8410:

Remind me again which recipes saw the amount of materials reduced in the past?

Didn’t happen often (because ANet lootnerfing stingy blah blah blah), but:

Soft Wood Planks.

There was a glut of it for a while, the refinement went from 3 logs to 4 logs. Naturally, the price spiked. Then, for some odd reason, it dropped to two (2) logs per plank, and the price is still well above vendor, on an item that is easily farmable.

The econ team normally sticks to their guns, but they’re not immovable.

I wish there were some way they could provide lower level crafting materials to higher level players for participating in lower level events. That would be a better way to get higher level players involved in lower level maps than getting them to go there specifically to farm nodes.

Isn’t that what Map Rewards do?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Isn’t that what Map Rewards do?

Kinda? Except the rotation on map rewards isn’t conducive to farming at all. In core Tyria, if I recall properly, it takes two events to get a reward from the track. There are three or four items on each track, at least. So that’s at least 6-8 events before you actually see a guaranteed leather/cloth scrap.
That’s waaay bad. :\

Honestly, there’s two changes that could make all the difference in dealing with this leather/cloth issue:
1. On loot rolls, if it’s not a rare or exotic drop for a high-level character, always drop the zone’s level equivalent gear. RNG on gear drops is still a factor in what a character gets, but it makes getting those cloth/leather drops much more certain. On the high end it means level 80s getting fewer junk-80 drops that normally get vendored or salvaged for T5s, which is a bloated market overall (except leather…).
2. For salvaging, change the drop charts to include anything that would go into the production of the item. That includes leather/cloth possibly dropping from all armor. Do exotics have a higher drop rate for T6? Because it certainly doesn’t feel like it.

Those are pretty good ideas, especially number 1. I also think number 2 is appropriate since it now requires leather and cloth to make all gear that leather and cloth should be in the salvage table of all gear.