Guild Wars 2

More or less three years ago, during the GW2 hype, ArenaNet released an article called: “Is it Fun? Colin Johanson on How ArenaNet Measures Success”. The message behind the article was that, in a MMORPG without monthly fees like GW2, the common MMO strategy of measuring success through subscriptions would not work; which means ArenaNet was free to measure success by how they wanted, and they chose to measure it on the game being fun or not. This would, thus, allow ArenaNet to make many design decisions that would promove fun.

You can read the article right here; and do take a look, it’s interesting.

I would like to take a look back on that article, and see how much of it still applies to the game today. First taking a look at the bullet points:

• “Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best.”

And now we have ascended gear, which is far from being common and is definitely grindy; and legendaries being at the level of ascended, so they are indeed more powerful than most of the stuff in the game.

• “Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!”

So, how many of those who spent a lot of time farming the Silverwastes for a beta portal got one? Not many? Maybe because they had a small chance of getting it as a drop. Wouldn’t it be more fun to always get rewareded for finishing with something you want to have?

• “Fun impacts development. Explorable dungeons have multiple paths you can take and random events. Because of this you don’t feel like you need to play the same dungeon over and over again if you want to chase the prestigious rewards at the end, but can instead mix up that experience to keep it fresh and fun.”

Did any dungeon added after release have multiple paths? No? Oh well.

Were those chasing portal keys feeling like they needed to play the same two maps over and over agains if they wanted to chase the reward at the end? Yes? Oh well.

• “Fun impacts customization. The event and personal story systems allow you to get a sense of customization from your characters.”

ArenaNet said they will remove the branching personal storyline from future storyline content, just like what we got in the Living World season 2. Linearity is the name of the game now, it appears.

• “Fun impacts gameplay. The pursuit of fun in content led us to make many gameplay decisions, including:Everyone who helps kill a creature gets experience and loot, so you’re not competing with other players; everyone gets rewarded for events with karma they can spend to buy rewards they want, rather than get a random roll of stuff they might not want; content scales in difficulty, so if more people show up, there is still stuff for you to do”

If there are too many players hitting an enemy, you risk not dealing enough damage and thus not getting experience and loot, meaning you are often competing with other players. Karma, awarded for events, is basically useless; the desirable drops at those which are random and often are not something players want (see the spoons at Teq, while people are farming it for the ascended weapons). Content scales in difficulty rather poorly, so large zergs just spam 111 and win the game.

So, yep, that article clearly holds rather nicely after all those years.

The way i see it, there isn’t enough fun.

Same dungeons and pvp maps. Only one WvW map, which turned into PvE. Two small zones, Dry Top & Silverwastes. And then Living Story.

All this for nearly 3 years.

I’ve only been playing PvP lately because PvE is just repetitive content with no rewards.

First:
•“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best.”

And now we have ascended gear, which is far from being common and is definitely grindy; and legendaries being at the level of ascended, so they are indeed more powerful than most of the stuff in the game."

Loot implies that it is related to drops. Also do you need Ascended/Legendaries to be the best? No. Can you complete any and all content with exotic gear (which are obtained multiple ways other than reliance upon drops)? Absolutley. The only thing the REQUIRES ascended is high level fractals. However you can still do and experience all that fractals have to offer (up to level 10) with exotic gear and nothing more.

I could go one, but I won’t. This is simply nothing more than an “Anet lied” thread, by taking what was said 3 years ago and applying it to things that don’t relate at all.
Fun is subjective. I still play nearly everyday because I find it fun. Others don’t and thats ok.

Ultimately this thread is non constructive and only serves to push the agenda that Anet has lied. This topic has been discussed at length many many times. It only serves to inflame the community, and not actually offer anything of value to the game, or to the developers.

/thread

More importantly, it’s rather clear that ArenaNet is measuring success through metrics. Do you guys remember:

• When ArenaNet was asked if they were ever going to fix Char and Asura bad armor textures? And ArenaNet said they wouldn’t, because very few people play as one of those races? Is that measuring the success of the Char and Asura based on how fun they are, or based on metrics?

• When ArenaNet asked a designer to overhaul the Ascalon Catacombs dungeon so less people would farm there? And when the dungeon was changed, and less people farmed there, and thus (obviously) less people played there, that designer was fired? Was that measuring the success of the dungeon based on how fun it is, or on metrics of how many people played it?

• When ArenaNet introduced log in rewards? Were those introduced because they make the game more fun? Or because they were meant to increase the number of unique log ins each day, which is an important metric?

• When ArenaNet asked people to grind the Silvewastes and Dry Top for beta access? Was that because grinding for a lot of time knowing most players would not get a portal is fun? Or because ArenaNet wanted to have metrics showing a lot of people playing on those two maps?

So, how do you guys think ArenaNet measures success today? Based on how fun GW2 is?

It’s pretty clear OP is just another person who farmed a beta portal and didn’t get one and is now mad about it so they lash out at every other thing they can find.

I play every single day because I have more fun on this game than any other game. In fact this is the only game I’ve ever got to max level on, because I typically get bored. I think they’ve succeeded in making a fun game. It isn’t perfect but it’s fun.

Test.8734:

More importantly, it’s rather clear that ArenaNet is measuring success through metrics. Do you guys remember:

• When ArenaNet was asked if they were ever going to fix Char and Asura bad armor textures? And ArenaNet said they wouldn’t, because very few people play as one of those races? Is that measuring the success of the Char and Asura based on how fun they are, or based on metrics?

• When ArenaNet asked a designer to overhaul the Ascalon Catacombs dungeon so less people would farm there? And when the dungeon was changed, and less people farmed there, and thus (obviously) less people played there, that designer was fired? Was that measuring the success of the dungeon based on how fun it is, or on metrics of how many people played it?

• When ArenaNet introduced log in rewards? Were those introduced because they make the game more fun? Or because they were meant to increase the number of unique log ins each day, which is an important metric?

• When ArenaNet asked people to grind the Silvewastes and Dry Top for beta access? Was that because grinding for a lot of time knowing most players would not get a portal is fun? Or because ArenaNet wanted to have metrics showing a lot of people playing on those two maps?

So, how do you guys think ArenaNet measures success today? Based on how fun GW2 is?

The defenders aren’t going to like that at all. Prepare a flame suit.

susonn.3284:

It’s pretty clear OP is just another person who farmed a beta portal and didn’t get one and is now mad about it so they lash out at every other thing they can find.

I play every single day because I have more fun on this game than any other game. In fact this is the only game I’ve ever got to max level on, because I typically get bored. I think they’ve succeeded in making a fun game. It isn’t perfect but it’s fun.

The OP apparently has a bone to pick with Anet. He has started several threads all with the same theme. Going back 3 years and picking about interviews and quotes, and putting them back together with their interpretation as to how they have lied, and are basically dishonest.

The OP is just trying to stir upon dissent and nothing more.

While i’m not necessarily dis-agreeing with you, the beta key is, in my opinion, an exception to any/all of the rules. it’s has nothing to do with anything in GW2. HoT Beta access is essentially a completely different game, currently (no, not in coding and such, but as in, they’re completely seperate)

Also I could say it was arguably intended as a happy side effect of playing the newest content, rather than an “omg uber rng grindfest!”.

Also, unrelated to the above

ascended gear, as said, is unessential and practically an unnoticeable difference in anything but high level fractals. Try comparing it to a majority of other mmo’s, where you NEED to grind to do ANY of the high level content in them. in gw2, you don’t need to do ANY grind to do ANY content. And that’s a good thing to me

Also, even though there aren’t any new dungeons in the game, aside from story-mode, all the dungeons also function as endgame content. that’s ~25 paths, and ~14 fractals. a good number of endgame dungeons, in my opinion (i still haven’t even beaten all of them!)

I do agree though, that the loot system needs to change, though perhaps not in the same sense you want it.

edit TL;DR/summary: Yes I think there is problems, but every other mmo i’ve played has done it worse. so I can overlook them

To be honest, I got to agree with OP. While I wouldn’t say its all “Anet Promises” and “Anet Lied”, I do think that when the hype was real, they made a lot of bold..claims. Saying their game was going to be different, and while it is different, there is a lot of stuff they can improve on, but they don’t because it costs money. Another reason why they spend so much time on the gem store. To be honest, I think I got what I payed for at launch, but with so many patches, that pretty much left some stuff in permanant ruin, I think for in the future Anet needs to be mindful of such articles like OP mentioned and really work on polishing any Xpacs they do, and after all that, try and polish the game so people don’t remember the buggy game that was bugged for forever, but remember the nice game that was interesting and actually different from every other game on the market.

I agree with many of the points the OP makes. Much of the fun that they talked about in the beginning is no longer there and was certainly abandoned in favor of other things. No new dungeon content when it seemed like that was a major point in the beginning. Abandoning multiple story paths and even decreasing customization with simple things like focusing new skins on outfits and not armor skins.

Little things like that make me feel like they’re less worried about GW2 being fun and more about GW2 competing with playerbases of other games to be successful. Nothing wrong with that, but it makes me play the game less and less.

People read into those statements what they wanted to read. When they game didn’t match their interpretation they got upset.

Another rant, move along.

pdavis.8031:

susonn.3284:

It’s pretty clear OP is just another person who farmed a beta portal and didn’t get one and is now mad about it so they lash out at every other thing they can find.

I play every single day because I have more fun on this game than any other game. In fact this is the only game I’ve ever got to max level on, because I typically get bored. I think they’ve succeeded in making a fun game. It isn’t perfect but it’s fun.

The OP apparently has a bone to pick with Anet. He has started several threads all with the same theme. Going back 3 years and picking about interviews and quotes, and putting them back together with their interpretation as to how they have lied, and are basically dishonest.

The OP is just trying to stir upon dissent and nothing more.

I think people focus too much on the OP and not what he’s saying. If you disagree with it, please do so. But there is no reason to attack him over his opinions, no matter how much you disagree with him.

I see far too much bullying tolerated here concerning people with the “wrong” opinions.

I can easily counter this thread by showing what the bullet points actually mean.

• “Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best.”

My Ascended Greatsword does the same damage as my friend’s Eternity. Nothing wrong here.

• “Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!”

I’m able to run a dungeon, get tokens, and select whichever weapon or armor I want. That statement still holds true, so I’m not sure what the point is.

• “Fun impacts development. Explorable dungeons have multiple paths you can take and random events. Because of this you don’t feel like you need to play the same dungeon over and over again if you want to chase the prestigious rewards at the end, but can instead mix up that experience to keep it fresh and fun.”

Each dungeon has different paths to take. Still does. Some paths provide more challenge, some are quicker. I get to vote on the path with my party, and majority rules.

• “Fun impacts customization. The event and personal story systems allow you to get a sense of customization from your characters.”

My Noble human storyline is different from my Commoner human storyline. Different events and dialogue takes place.

• “Fun impacts gameplay. The pursuit of fun in content led us to make many gameplay decisions, including:Everyone who helps kill a creature gets experience and loot, so you’re not competing with other players; everyone gets rewarded for events with karma they can spend to buy rewards they want, rather than get a random roll of stuff they might not want; content scales in difficulty, so if more people show up, there is still stuff for you to do”

When I kill the Karka Queen daily, I’m not competing with other players for the end chest. If I manage to come in and deal damage while the KQ is at a quarter HP, I still get loot.

Conclusion – Yes, this game is fun. I get to play how I want, when I want, and all without a subscription fee.

Edit – One of the real metrics Anet looks at is how much Gems is purchased with real money. I’ll give you some data on that right now. When I get home from work, I’m going to buy another $50 in Gems. Why? Because I love this game. I can afford to convert my Gold into Gems, but that does nothing to support Colin’s salary.

“ Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!”

That is not fun to begin with. Let’s say I need 50 tokens to get the item I want and I get one token per run.

Then I do one run and I know I still need to do 49 more. How much ‘fun’ does the reward of the one token five me? None whatsoever. The token is completely useless for me until I have them all 50. Getting that one token does not feel fun of rewarding to me at all. Because I am not after the token but after the Item I need 50 tokens for.

That means I am simply grinding along, seeing the numbers of tokens going up until it reaches 50. That is not fun.

A token system like this is good, but should be something for along the way as a side thing. The rewards you get with the tokens should be a ‘nice to have’ but in general not something people are specifically after. You should be doing the dungeon for another reason (that can be multiple) but if for example you are unlucky with the RNG reward at the very least you do get those ‘nice to have’ items along the way.

Now put in an item with a 1/50 drop-rate. This would mean that the item drops on average 1 in 50 times. I can be lucky and it will drop sooner or unlucky and it will drop later. Likely what happens is that when I do different content for different items, one time I’m lucky, the other time I’m unlucky but my average drop-rate should be around the actual drop-rate.

When this is implemented then every time I complete the dungeon there is the rush of ‘will it drop’ and that rush alone makes it way more fun while at the same time you know on average it will drop once every 50 runs. Would that have been combined with the token system, then even if you where unlucky and you had to do it 100 times before it dropped, at the very least you did get some ‘nice to haves’ along the way.

So the way Colin describes it, it’s already not fun but a boring grind.

Now about the RNG OP talks about. Yeah while I say, RNG would be better there, I talk about a ‘doable’ RNG. Like the 1/50, depending on the content and the rarity that can also be 1/100 or 1/250. Basically the same as the numbers of runs you would need to do when you have a token system in place.

That however is not to be compared with the RNG as it is in GW2 like with the portal. There is no real working towards that item. With an extreme low RNG of 1/10000 or less (not sure what the drop-rate on the portal is, but this holds true for a lot of items that do drop in the game) then RNG is not fun, or really not anything you can do much with. Then it becomes more ‘luck’ of getting it.

Meaning people grind there heads of and indeed might still end up with nothing.
From a luck perspective it would be more like if you had my example of 1/50 but then only had 10 runs you could do.. So if you get it, has indeed to do far more with luck then with anything else.. And then it’s not fun anymore indeed.

So to summarize it.
- Tokens (currency) can be good, but only as a secondary option, make it the main way and it becomes a boring grind.
- RNG can be more fun by giving the “will it drop rush” but only if the drop-rate is within limits (this also depends on the content.. When I simply have to crush eggs by running in a room filled with hundreds of thousands of eggs a 1/10000 isn’t much at all)
- The RNG as we have it in game, where it’s completely unreasonable and so does not allow you to really work towards getting something specific (other then grinding gold for those items where that is possible) is indeed not fun.

So here you have a problem why the game feels to grindy.. what is not fun.

pdavis.8031:

and putting them back together with their interpretation as to how they have lied, and are basically dishonest.

The OP is just trying to stir upon dissent and nothing more.

The interesting thing is that nowhere in the OP here it’s stated that ArenaNet has lied.

So tell me: after reading it, have you, by yourself, reached the conclusion that ArenaNet has lied and been dishonest?

Or are you just trying to stir upon dissent and nothing more?