Guild Wars 2

The simplest way to fix the condition problem, is to revert burning back. Each player’s burning stacks in duration. None of the other conditions seem out of line.

If you want PvE stacking, allow each player to have their own burning on the target (so a world boss may have 20 different burns on them for example, but each burn would be stacking in duration and not intensity).

Problem solved.

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

True – I think just the numbers need tweaking, but the concept of stacking it seems fine.

On a related note – funny how MtD doing 3k torment ticks on a golem was deemed “too much”, when looking at all these other sources of insane damage.

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You know, just like you can’t do 19K burn every second. Not sure how ONE tick of 19K burn equates to “zomg!!11! 19K burn every second!!QQ!11!”

Vesuvius.9874:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You know, just like you can’t do 19K burn every second. Not sure how ONE tick of 19K burn equates to “zomg!!11! 19K burn every second!!QQ!11!”

Because you can’t land a single backstab for that much, let alone land a backstab for that much and still have copious amounts of survivability.

Diminishing returns on stacking is whats needed, and or simply reducing the number of stacks certain skills apply per application on a case by case basis. A lot of classes use burning and it’s well balanced for them.

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

What everyone else said. Also because burning is not the only condition. Burning by itself is capable of doing as much as a full hundred blades with a single tic. And then you factor in poison, bleeding, torment…And the difference really shows. I don’t care about pve, but burning is ridiculous in pvp.

NO! condi builds r unplayable without it! the culprit here is guardian justice if u r going to nerf something start there

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You can’t do 19k burn every second either. It takes a bunch of long cooldown skills and even then the 19k ticks maybe 1-3 times before dropping back down to 3-4k.

By the way… 100blades without being hit? Have you even heard of Endure Pain? How about Aegis? Give me a break. Zerk has been king of PvE for 3 years. Now they have an equal, and everyone is crying foul without thinking.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Vesuvius.9874:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You know, just like you can’t do 19K burn every second. Not sure how ONE tick of 19K burn equates to “zomg!!11! 19K burn every second!!QQ!11!”

Because you can’t land a single backstab for that much, let alone land a backstab for that much and still have copious amounts of survivability.

21k backstab damage.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/One-shotted-by-theif-18519-damage/first#post5215422

70K+ backstab damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTwL3013GA

Still think 19K is too much?

That video cast is best case (if we talk abut the same). Usually you dodge the flame spam … And of course use a cleanse. He can´t reaply such a spam immidiately. Shure he can burn you for 5-10 stacks again. But he is very sqishy. His defence is a bit blinding and i think one arcane shield.
Of course he can try to disengage with superspeed when the shield fires on low HP …
But yes the stack application is crazy. You can counter it, but i think manny classes have a hard time.

You do all recall that new buff called ‘Resistance’ that’s not really fully implemented right?

You know, the buff that has this as a description: ‘Resistance temporarily negates the affected target of all effects caused by conditions.’

Ykfox.3825:

You do all recall that new buff called ‘Resistance’ that’s not really fully implemented right?

You know, the buff that has this as a description: ‘Resistance temporarily negates the affected target of all effects caused by conditions.’

That’s what all the zerker fanboys are willingly blind to.

Kagamiku.9731:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

What everyone else said. Also because burning is not the only condition. Burning by itself is capable of doing as much as a full hundred blades with a single tic. And then you factor in poison, bleeding, torment…And the difference really shows. I don’t care about pve, but burning is ridiculous in pvp.

Show me a burning build that does 20k in a single tick that also has plenty of torment, bleed, poison, etc. Wooden Potatoes video shows ONLY burning with some very crappy bleeds as a afterthought. And the burns in WP’s build only tick 19k for a couple of seconds, and require popping a lot of long cooldowns. Longer cooldowns than 100blades.

Necros can put up a “whopping” 2 stacks of burning if they camp in deathshroud and spam 1, meanwhile their bleeds and poison disappear. Mesmer can get roughly 10 stacks of torment on a foe for 8 seconds, and I don’t really expect that damage to be good when 90% of pve is stack and kill. Show me the mobs that constantly run around while also attacking? Most of them stop moving to attack. Mesmer bleeds are even more pitiful, and they get 2 short sources of 1 burn stack, and 1 RNG source of poison for 5 laughable seconds.

Sorry I’m not familiar with engineer post-patch, so feel free to enlighten me.

You know, the irony is that it is all the zerker fanboys/girls crying out in rage over this.

Which is hilarious, because this is how condition damage focused people felt before this update.

Yes, burning is a bit excessive at the moment, and it needs tweaking, but if they nerf it as much as these people want it nerfed it’s going to be useless again, and guardians will go back to only being able to run Zerker.

Guardians deserve to run condition builds too, kitten it.

Condi damage is largely fine. There are some weird ones where Elementalist can burst someone with 17 stacks of burning and tick for 7k damage. Considering what Meteor Shower does, that’s not… entirely outrageous, just a bit over the top maybe.

On my guardian, I’m lucky to maintain 10 stacks of burning with burning duration runes, sigils, and food. I can get bursts of burning stacks that high, but they don’t last very long. Unless I’m doing something terribly wrong…

Anyways, Resistance is a thing that’s not entirely there yet. I figure a lot of world bosses are gonna start getting Resistance or something, or maybe a form of defiance that weakens condis as they stack up. Because let’s be honest, 20 second Shatterer fights are hilariously silly.

It’s a lot of damage guys.
I switched to Balthazar rune on my engi and went for
burns,since I was getting decimated by it and I decided
to hop on the burn train too, and it is out of control.
Where’s the fun in this?You can melt another player in
5 secs.The game has become burn or gtfo.
A nice solution would be to cap it to 5 stacks in PvP.
It is still a lot of damage.
Leave it as it is in PvE and WvW.

Aenaos.8160:

A nice solution would be to cap it to 5 stacks in PvP. It is still a lot of damage.

<sarcasm>Another nice solution to go with that would be to cap crit chance and crit damage to 5%. It is still a lot of damage.</sarcasm>

Conditions now are the best reason why Anet should split PvP and PvE balance. I don’t understand why they just don’t do this. “Oh we don’t wanna split the community” isn’t exactly a valid reason. The community is already fairly separated as it is when it comes to people hanging out in LA versus HotM

Vesuvius.9874:

Aenaos.8160:

A nice solution would be to cap it to 5 stacks in PvP. It is still a lot of damage.

<sarcasm>Another nice solution to go with that would be to cap crit chance and crit damage to 5%. It is still a lot of damage.</sarcasm>

This is hilarious.

I have both conditions engineers and zerk wars, so I am not fussed, but I can’t believe people get narky with each other about it.

Angry condition peeps getting snide with angry power peeps?

Hahaha Ridiculous. ROFL.

Get out more, dudes.

I play 7 classes and all shorts of builds.
As I mentioned in my post,I currently run my
Engi to take advantage of the new burning.
Burning is way out of control ,and no matter how much
fun you get from bursting your opponents to their unavoidable
death in a few secs,it is not good for the game.
It is so strong,it defines PvP atm.
Also,it’s not like the classes that apply burning don’t crit and do
normal damage as well.For example my Engi runs with almost
2k Power, 1k Condition Damage and 30% to 60%
crit chance.

Vesuvius.9874:

Aenaos.8160:

A nice solution would be to cap it to 5 stacks in PvP. It is still a lot of damage.

<sarcasm>Another nice solution to go with that would be to cap crit chance and crit damage to 5%. It is still a lot of damage.</sarcasm>

“If you need to indicate that you are being sarcastic,then your sarcasm has failed.”

‘A wise man like Hodor’
2015 A.D

Aenaos.8160:

Vesuvius.9874:

Aenaos.8160:

A nice solution would be to cap it to 5 stacks in PvP. It is still a lot of damage.

<sarcasm>Another nice solution to go with that would be to cap crit chance and crit damage to 5%. It is still a lot of damage.</sarcasm>

“If you need to indicate that you are being sarcastic,then your sarcasm has failed.”

‘A wise man like Hodor’
2015 A.D

Given the level of intellect around the zerker vs condi argument, I felt it was necessary.

The whole reason condition damage was buffed was because it was kitten compaired to zerker builds. Sure in long fights conditions sometimes came out on top,but not always. Anet even said that they want to promote the use of other builds do players weren’t just using one stat choice for the whole game.

With all the new mechanics coming on HoT, zerker builds r going to struggle survivability wise. Deal with it. Zerkers are glass cannons. Conditions are finally good and leave my kitten engi alone. My pistol pistol build is finally viable. The point is this: try a different play style. Sure burning might be slightly op, but a survivability mechanic to deny condition damage is their. USE it.

On another note. Was killing a 80 veteran with my condition engi. Fight lasted about 10-15 seconds. Warrior walks up, hundred blades a diff vet to death in about 3 seconds… Get my point

Vesuvius.9874:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Vesuvius.9874:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You know, just like you can’t do 19K burn every second. Not sure how ONE tick of 19K burn equates to “zomg!!11! 19K burn every second!!QQ!11!”

Because you can’t land a single backstab for that much, let alone land a backstab for that much and still have copious amounts of survivability.

21k backstab damage.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/One-shotted-by-theif-18519-damage/first#post5215422

70K+ backstab damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTwL3013GA

Still think 19K is too much?

“It’s very difficult because depends of many factors…
The highest crit when I was alone was 13k to a mesmer and 13k to a warrior.”
his own comment.

He had every possible buff on him and maxed out on all factors to increase damage.

Half the people in this thread seem to be talking about pve and the other half pvp

It seems that balance really needs to be separate between the two to deal with these problems, no idea if that is feasible but i dont see why not since confusion is already different in each mode

Excludee.3850:

Conditions now are the best reason why Anet should split PvP and PvE balance. I don’t understand why they just don’t do this.

What’s the issue here? Conditions are perceived to do too much damage in PvP, while not enough in PvE?

Easy solution: Decrease PvE enemies’ hit points so that they aren’t so bloated, bringing them more in line to what players’ hit point totals are. Increase toughness to make up for it. Although this suggestion goes as far back at least as far as GW2’s betas, so clearly this is not going to happen for one reason or another.

If the issue here is simple numbers, then change the numbers so that PvE and PvP aren’t so widely different.

Kagamiku.9731:

Vesuvius.9874:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Vesuvius.9874:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You know, just like you can’t do 19K burn every second. Not sure how ONE tick of 19K burn equates to “zomg!!11! 19K burn every second!!QQ!11!”

Because you can’t land a single backstab for that much, let alone land a backstab for that much and still have copious amounts of survivability.

21k backstab damage.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/One-shotted-by-theif-18519-damage/first#post5215422

70K+ backstab damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTwL3013GA

Still think 19K is too much?

“It’s very difficult because depends of many factors…
The highest crit when I was alone was 13k to a mesmer and 13k to a warrior.”
his own comment.

He had every possible buff on him and maxed out on all factors to increase damage.

Thanks for the explanation for the 70K backstab damage. Now only if you could provide one for the 21K backstab damage.

Burning needs a tweak, yes, but NOT a gutting! Ele full-condi builds are a little bit more viable now thanks to the burning change; I would hate for them to go back to being largely a joke/novelty.

Please do NOT over-nerf burning.

Glenstorm.4059:

Burning needs a tweak, yes, but NOT a gutting! Ele full-condi builds are a little bit more viable now thanks to the burning change; I would hate for them to go back to being largely a joke/novelty.

Please do NOT over-nerf burning.

That is why my original post explicitly mentions to revert burning, and not nerf it.

Burning is clearly only OP when stacked to extreme levels. If you flat nerf burn itself, each individual burn because as worthless as a single bleed stack. The fundamental idea of a DOT that is high damage and stacks in intensity is a recipe for abuse.

LEARN TO CLEANSE problem solved

Necronin.9680:

The whole reason condition damage was buffed was because it was kitten compaired to zerker builds. Sure in long fights conditions sometimes came out on top,but not always. Anet even said that they want to promote the use of other builds do players weren’t just using one stat choice for the whole game.

With all the new mechanics coming on HoT, zerker builds r going to struggle survivability wise. Deal with it. Zerkers are glass cannons. Conditions are finally good and leave my kitten engi alone. My pistol pistol build is finally viable. The point is this: try a different play style. Sure burning might be slightly op, but a survivability mechanic to deny condition damage is their. USE it.

On another note. Was killing a 80 veteran with my condition engi. Fight lasted about 10-15 seconds. Warrior walks up, hundred blades a diff vet to death in about 3 seconds… Get my point

So much for struggling?

Burning needs to be tweaked but to say it should go back to duration is just stupid. Burning was terrible pre patch.

To get this insane amount of burning you need a lot of stacks, and is not easy as looks. Power builds have burst and conditions need to build up.

Aganist players is really hard to do that.

If burning is nerfed, I really hope that is not over nerfed. This is what finally make Condi Guardian viable, after so many years.

It needs some work, but completely revert it is hardly the solution.

Vesuvius.9874:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Vesuvius.9874:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Xenon.4537:

Whats the average burn damage? WP posted a video where he got 19k for about 2-3 seconds using every burn duration and proc he could. How is 19k burn different from a 19k backstab or 100blades?

Because you can’t do a 19K backstab or 100-blades every second while actively avoiding being hit? Burning SHOULD hit hard, but not that hard.

You know, just like you can’t do 19K burn every second. Not sure how ONE tick of 19K burn equates to “zomg!!11! 19K burn every second!!QQ!11!”

Because you can’t land a single backstab for that much, let alone land a backstab for that much and still have copious amounts of survivability.

21k backstab damage.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/One-shotted-by-theif-18519-damage/first#post5215422

70K+ backstab damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTwL3013GA

Still think 19K is too much?

Your argument would hold if it wasnt for the fact that the video was of thief back before Mug and Assassin signet got changed. The video shows Assassin signet with 1 charge which was the old 50% 1 hit damage boost.

Second is the link to the screenshot which shows mesmer (light armor) being hit for 21k, not unheard of if it was a low level or 1,9k armor, and the thief taking all damage boosts into play.

I have to agree that the burn damage is out of control as the amount of stacks that can be applied by one profession is rather huge atm and can do insane amount of damage per tick. What i find most frustrating is of course in pvp and wvw where the ones stacking condition damage can also stack vit and toughness to be fairly tanky or have a solid armor rating vs zerk.

I too have put my guardian onto the burn wagon in spvp due to the fact that if i dont, im at an disadvantage and if im up against other burn type professions then i wont have a big chance at winning. And since i want to win, ill take what does the best.

I am split however on the topic of whether it should be reverted to duration or stay with stacking. I just think that the 3x burn stacks at instant speed is a bit too much.
Thieves have 2x on steal, but everything else is through Dagger training or Lotus strike which applies 1 stack. With spider vennom that is 6 strikes. Each venom stack is around 10secs. The highest i could get my thiefs poison stack was 15 stacks doing 1.5k per tick where i had to take quickness to pump at as many hits as possible.

15 stacks burning from my guardian im hitting 5k-6k per tick which is not balanced. Yes burn should be the hardest hitting condi but the gap is too large at the moment between burn and other conditions.

I would love to have bleeding damage a bit increased and burn stacking (not overal base damage and duration) lowered. Maybe the burn stacking must be done for each class now. I ahd another idea to clean burning always first, so a singel condi remover will remove burn. But maybe that would be a hard burn nerf.

Tsyras.5274:

The simplest way to fix the _ problem, is to revert

If the simplest solution to problems was to revert, then ANet should just return the game to how it was at launch.

Hmmn, except there were other problems, which led ANet to make changes to fundamental mechanics and so reverting would bring back those. So maybe “revert” is never the best solution — even if it sounds simple, it rarely is that simple to implement.

I think it’s important when trying to come up with a solution to make sure we understand the issue first. It might be one condition, it might be the synergy of conditions & traits, it might be something else. It probably isn’t as simple as any of us think it is.

Wolfric.9380:

I would love to have bleeding damage a bit increased and burn stacking (not overal base damage and duration) lowered. Maybe the burn stacking must be done for each class now. I ahd another idea to clean burning always first, so a singel condi remover will remove burn. But maybe that would be a hard burn nerf.

Guardian – burning
Ele – burning and little bleeding
Engineer – poison,burning,bleeding,confusion.
Necro – burning,poison,torment,bleeding
Ranger – burning,bleeding,poison
Thief – poison,torment,bleeding,confusion, and little burning
Warrior – burning,torment,bleeding

Nerf burning definite ruin all condi build on class when use only one DMG condition like Guardian and Ele,

Cronicle.5691:

I too have put my guardian onto the burn wagon in spvp due to the fact that if i dont, im at an disadvantage and if im up against other burn type professions then i wont have a big chance at winning. And since i want to win, ill take what does the best.

See how you are complaining about taking what does best? That’s the entire non-zerker population right there when zerker was the meta. People had to go with zerker even if they didn’t like it just because that’s “what did best”. Now that condis are giving the zerkers a run for their money, everyone’s QQing about nerf nerf nerf.