Guild Wars 2

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

First, I think we need to establish the biggest problem with the event reward structure, so that we know exactly what problems we are solving.

From my perspective, the biggest problem with the event reward structure is that it inherently works against the intended gameplay. We all collectively want a system that encourages people to do events all around the world, including those that are harder, more involved, more out of the way or off the beaten path, and including those in zones of all levels. However, the current events system rewards higher completion payouts in higher level zones.

Equally importantly, many players are motivated to do open world content by item loot. Some open world content is very generous with this, which is why we end up with huge champion and karma trains running around places like Orr and Frostgorge, while other events don’t reward this as much.

I think the core problem is that the current event reward system doesn’t give you any real incentive to do anything other than what is the most farmable, and it’s not really going to be possible to equalise the loot and rewards of every single event within the current structure. If people are going to get bucketloads of champion boxes, loot bags and crafting materials from slaughtering Risen spawns en masse at the most farmable Orr events, it’s no surprise that people aren’t gravitating to places like the Harathi Hinterlands as much as they should.

What we need, and I am honestly not sure how best to achieve this, is a reward structure that inherently rewards people more for playing the widest variety of events throughout the game, and for playing them as intended (ie not intentionally failing the events for more champion spawns or whatever).

The first idea that comes to mind is something similar to what you did with hearts and map completion or what a lot of other MMOs do with quests and loremaster-esque achievements: An achievement with some meaningful reward (likely a title) for completing events in a particular zone. What if there was an achievement for completing every event in Queensdale that gave you the title “Queen’s Protector” or an achievement for completing every event in Brisban Wildlands that gave you the title “Tamer of the Wildlands”? Something like that I imagine would encourage people to do those events – even if it only works once, which is why we’d need some sort of more comprehensive reward structure overhaul for the long term.

I agree with Anthony, that events should be the core of the game experience. Or in a different perspective: exploration should be the core of the game experience. Imho DryTop is a good start since people search the map for events, BUT over time people learn the timetables, learn the location of the events, so the experience will feel more and more like a grind (as people always do the same, contrary to Anets vision of adding new events while increasing the intervalls for older events to spawn).

I think Anet should try to realize the once dropped vision of having tons of events in a map rather than only a few which repeat constantly. Now with the incentive to do these events (map-progress) it would make the experience much less stale.

Sure, trains would get hurt since people have to look out for events in other places than the known ones, but it wouldn’t get boring as fast. Also I’d suggest to add more desireable rewards to the last two/three tiers.

munkiman.3068:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’d have to agree. I believe a far better method would be something like Dry Top, or (as I believe someone above suggested), something like Nicholas the Traveler from GW — the point being to have something he wants that drops from mobs in various locations.

So much this! Please! I know we have geode traders in dry-top, but i loved trading with Nicholas each week. Maybe his great-grandson?

You just know it’s going to be Petunias the Sylvari Traveler with her pet Oakheart named Groot…. wait… there’s a similar character already in GW2…. only it’s an actual player…..

Could this be simpler? Remember when Southsun had those Magic Find buffs? What if there was just an NPC – Nicholas-style – who moved between zones every day. He gives you a buff with +MF EXP Karma Coin only within the zone.

This would mean lots of people in the open world, though just within the zone of the day. Still, it’d mean you can do some open world content with better rewards.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I agree with the dry top approach. The zone wide event is a lot of fun, and gives personal and group goals to the whole map.

If you could implement something like this in all new zones (hint hint) I think it would be great progress over the heart idea.

After you add 5+ zones with zones like this you could add a daily to help people focus in on a specific map, or give bonus progress to a certain map every day.

timmyf.1490:

Could this be simpler? Remember when Southsun had those Magic Find buffs? What if there was just an NPC – Nicholas-style – who moved between zones every day. He gives you a buff with +MF EXP Karma Coin only within the zone.

This would mean lots of people in the open world, though just within the zone of the day. Still, it’d mean you can do some open world content with better rewards.

Petunias the Sylvari Traveler could also give you recipes for crafting precursors! You just have to complete an absurd of collection first though.

timmyf.1490:

Could this be simpler? Remember when Southsun had those Magic Find buffs? What if there was just an NPC – Nicholas-style – who moved between zones every day. He gives you a buff with +MF EXP Karma Coin only within the zone.

This would mean lots of people in the open world, though just within the zone of the day. Still, it’d mean you can do some open world content with better rewards.

For that to get people away from zerging the popular farming events it’d have to be an astronomically powerful buff.

It seems to me a big reason that we don’t have a bunch of brand spankin new zones in the game is because the devs didn’t want the “older” game world to be empty. I think there are ways to put in new zones and create reason for players to go back to old zones as well. Incentives could be added to “old” maps so that players still populate them.

The Hard Mode heart thing isn’t a bad idea on that front at all. If youa re level 80 you talk to a completed heart vendor and they give you a new task that is much harder to complete.

A Nicholas style collector is a great idea too.

As far as new maps are concerned, I was a little disappointed that Southsun and Dry Top didn’t offer players rewards for completing all the things there. Sure, it doesn’t count for Map completion and it shouldn’t, but that doesn’t mean players shouldn’t get rewards for completing them.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I really want to play the event chain in an area, but if it hasn’t started yet?

Hearts are like having a magazine in a waiting room. You’re really not interested in back issues of Home and Garden, but it’s better than counting dots on the ceiling.

Lasur Arkinshade.4107:

What we need, and I am honestly not sure how best to achieve this, is a reward structure that inherently rewards people more for playing the widest variety of events throughout the game, and for playing them as intended (ie not intentionally failing the events for more champion spawns or whatever).

The first idea that comes to mind is something similar to what you did with hearts and map completion or what a lot of other MMOs do with quests and loremaster-esque achievements: An achievement with some meaningful reward (likely a title) for completing events in a particular zone. What if there was an achievement for completing every event in Queensdale that gave you the title “Queen’s Protector” or an achievement for completing every event in Brisban Wildlands that gave you the title “Tamer of the Wildlands”? Something like that I imagine would encourage people to do those events – even if it only works once, which is why we’d need some sort of more comprehensive reward structure overhaul for the long term.

good one, this is one of the ideas we discussed during the horizontal progression CDI. The problem imho with that idea was that people would eventually have to wait for events with longer spawn timers. Waiting for an event to happen isn’t fun. Some ideas (which surely aren’t perfect either):

• reward for doing a number of unique events in a row (without having to do all in a map). Why not give us a champion bag after 3 unique events. 2 Champion bags after 6 unique events etc. Reset would be at 5 champion bags.

• like above but a more hardcore approach: reset when using a waypoint. This would prevent players from using waypoints only to find events near waypoints.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

Now this is drawing way back to when I was a new player, so my memory may not be crystal, but:

I think I remember feeling very drawn toward Point A, Point B .etc. It was all about map completion, getting the next POI, getting the next WP. On one hand, the hearts may have facilitated that because they in themselves are a map completion point. On the other, the hearts were my least favorite because they often took more effort and sometimes would not unlock on the map unless you got close enough, even if the area got unfogged.

Now on all of my alt characters, hearts are my favorite for leveling. Probably because I’m not feeling the same rush to the top as I was on release. I was by no means planning to be the first 100% or the first 80, but you know what I mean. The early game “Go! Go! Go!” mentality.

I think Dry Top is a very good way to do things on a bit more of a veteran level, but most of us are feeling extreme pressure because we let ourselves go crazy into thinking the place will turn into a ghost town and it’ll be 1-2 years before ya’ll nerf/buff do whatever you need to do to get the rewards attainable again.

We saw it happen hardcore with the twisted nightmare tower thing in Kessex.

I think you’re on a better track with Dry Top though, because the chests are rewarding year ‘round. It isn’t just a place to fulfill achievements.

It ALL boils down to rewards. If its a checklist of achievements or unique items, players only stay until they’ve got em. If its good gold, karma, every day items, players will keep coming back. Tie skins to content, it’s all going to depend how much players like the skins. Make a bulky/funny weapon set and people will stay as long as its the new funny thing, make a set that’s sleek and downright cool and people will keep coming back as they make new characters, builds, dye combos or outfits.

timmyf.1490:

Remember when Southsun had those Magic Find buffs? What if there was just an NPC – Nicholas-style – who moved between zones every day. He gives you a buff with +MF EXP Karma Coin only within the zone.

I love that idea, but I also think that events feel too unrewarding compared to champions. Also exploring feels too unrewarding to me, why not have the champions roam around instead of waiting on a location to be killed?

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I think this game lacks “structured quests”, and the hearts and the events (as they currently are) can’t substitute it.

By “structured quests”, I mean lore/ story-driven (or not) optional tasks with an interesting gameplay scenario behind them (with a proper structure, rising action, climax, etc, and varying degrees of difficulties and tasks).

Think of the structure of LW episodes, but without instances, and possibly without cutscenes.

This structured model could ask you to explore certain localizations, manually-trigger events, talk to NPCs, all within each “quest”. Basically, like GW1’s quest system, but with player-triggered dynamic events inbetween.

I think such a system would offer a much richer experience than what hearts offer, or what dynamic events offer without outside support.

I believe this was all discussed in one CDI.

Dirame.8521:

timmyf.1490:

Could this be simpler? Remember when Southsun had those Magic Find buffs? What if there was just an NPC – Nicholas-style – who moved between zones every day. He gives you a buff with +MF EXP Karma Coin only within the zone.

This would mean lots of people in the open world, though just within the zone of the day. Still, it’d mean you can do some open world content with better rewards.

Petunias the Sylvari Traveler could also give you recipes for crafting precursors! You just have to complete an absurd of collection first though.

I think i just miss Yakkington and opening the gifts

Some sort of map wide visual of where ongoing events are would help also. Orange circles, visible big map wide for example. Orange dots for NPC that would like to hand out a quest.

It doesn’t help wandering around looking for stuff to do on a map and not finding anything for long stretches of time. This makes maps appear empty and boring. So much easier to go back to Frostgorge and hit the champs again. Or Instead of of doing events to get karma, heading to that EOTM map.

And NICHOLAS! Geez bring this type of NPC back, pleez

DiogoSilva.7089:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I think this game lacks “structured quests”, and the hearts and the events (as they currently are) can’t substitute it.

By “structured quests”, I mean lore/ story-driven (or not) optional tasks with an interesting gameplay scenario behind them (with a proper structure, rising action, climax, etc, and varying degrees of difficulties and tasks).

Think of the structure of LW episodes, but without instances, and possibly without cutscenes.

This structured model could ask you to explore certain localizations, manually-trigger events, talk to NPCs, all within each “quest”. Basically, like GW1’s quest system, but with player-triggered dynamic events inbetween.

I think such a system would offer a much richer experience than what hearts offer, or what dynamic events offer without outside support.

I believe this was all discussed in one CDI.

something like small side stories? stuff that you do mostly through interacting with NPCs and objects in the world?

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

On another note, if you guys gave to each dynamic event unique/ interesting rewards, and if hearts allowed characters to manually trigger events in that area the first time around…

…I think playing with alts and searching for hearts would be a lot more interesting. Hearts would be, this way, not the end goal, but a vehicle for that goal (to find and complete events, to collect their rewards reliably).

To borrow from the Story vs Explorable mode of each dungeon. How about something similar for renown hearts. Once you complete a heart (or all hearts in a region), some or all of the hearts offer repeatable “part 2” content that follows up in some way to the original goal of that particular renown heart. I think there would some flexibility in how to apply this to provide variety across all of the regions in the game.

It seems once I “complete” a map region, the only reasons I return there are for dungeons, world/guild events, or specific resource gathering. Repeatable renown heart events that scale helpfully for a character’s level would be a perk. Maybe even a way to reward players with region specific materials that max level players are grinding for anyway, such as wool scraps or whatever.

Rethinking Nicolas the Traveller idea:

What if Nicolas successor doesn’t simply collect stuff from a map, but from certain locations in the whole game? Week 1 would be rare spawns in ruins in any zone, Week 2 would be rare spawns in caves/mines, week 3 in Ogre territory, etc. An additional dropchance from events in those locations.

People would finally feel rewarded to explore hidden mines, corners of Tyria… you can’t drop mystic coins in all of the maps

BrunoBRS.5178:

something like small side stories? stuff that you do mostly through interacting with NPCs and objects in the world?

It would include that alongside exploration and events.

I like Dry Top, but events are designed to be stumbled upon, while in Dry Top it’s the objective to do them. It leads into a “Stumple upon all the events!”-objective. I personally would like to see events displayed on the map zone you’re in, but it would be overwhelming for new players, and probably even new level 80 players, so I can’t think of a good way to implement it. Although if you 100% a zone it could be unlocked or something like that.

Hearts are boring, yes, and rewards are weak unless you’re at the level your zone requires (maybe even weak rewards then, too!).

Knaifhogg.5964:

I personally would like to see events displayed on the map zone you’re in

they clarified the reason why they aren’t doing it once: the time it takes you to run to an event far away it is a high chance it’s over when or before you arrive. This would only lead to frustration.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Knaifhogg.5964:

I personally would like to see events displayed on the map zone you’re in

they clarified the reason why they aren’t doing it once: the time it takes you to run to an event far away it is a high chance it’s over when or before you arrive. This would only lead to frustration.

There’s always WPs, but I think warping everywhere is a bit immersion breaking.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

Is it possible that Dry top is getting that degree of participation because it is the, “new shiny,” and that given time it will, like any MMO content, become less played ?

I am not attempting to denigrate the idea that design premise contributes to the replay value but I am not sure if it has been around long enough to say at this time.

I think this idea has some viability, but not so much as a complete reset to the hearts. What if once the initial heart is done, it’s done, however adding new tiers of karma vendor loot that does get reset once a month – kind of like the tiers of the vendors in Dry Top when the sandstorm dissipates. Make the hearts repeatable but taking more effort to complete it than the tier before – say instead of requiring 10 actions of a particular type to complete, it takes 20, or 30, etc. Each day you can only go up one tier that would unlock better karma loot, this would help promote exploration rather than sitting at one heart and grinding along. It would also promote socializing between veterans and newer players because 80 characters would be in starting zones more often (now that champs are almost non-existent in starting zones, map completion is pretty much the only pull that 80s have to stick around in starting zones) – give the newer players something to aspire to and awe at the second they come into the game by having level capped players fighting along side them using a wide array of skills, giving them more incentive to pursue higher levels.

I think they should add bonus rewards for lv.80 players to each map.

• get 100% map completion first for that specific map.
• 1-2 random heart vendors have a job for you – a small quest. Guides are useless.
• complete this quest for a special reward (unique skin for each map)
• you can reset that challenge by doing 10 unique events in that zone.
• now 1-2 other heart vendors have a job for you.
• price: 4 champion bags OR a rare/exotic OR 3g

I honestly hate that idea as most of those quest were tedious and boring doing the first time plus I seriously doubt it would interest players to complete them unless they started offering much better rewards.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Knaifhogg.5964:

I personally would like to see events displayed on the map zone you’re in

they clarified the reason why they aren’t doing it once: the time it takes you to run to an event far away it is a high chance it’s over when or before you arrive. This would only lead to frustration.

Yeah, but right now I use a homepage to find where the events are, that doesn’t update once an event has finished.

Another problem with Dry Top is that there are many champion events (and a legendary one) that need enough people, but the map is still designed for people to spread out. So whenever I stumble upon an event, it’s likely it’s one I need more people for but I think there’s plenty of people running past thinking the same thing.

So yeah, displaying all events is hardly a perfect solution but it would improve the current state at least.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I agree with this. Hearts are too static and boring. Events provide a more dynamic experience. However, some zones lack dynamic events and it takes a long time to find them.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I like the spirit of Dry Top’s design, but there are a few things that bug me, personally:

1) Timers: I don’t like feeling pressured to get X done in Y amount of time to gain access to rewards and then lose all progress after a relatively short amount of time has passed.

2) Difficulty of events: This relates to timers in that people are often going to skip over one event to do another purely because of time constraints. Cuts out some of the “dynamic”/spontaneous feel for me.

3) Special currency: I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it makes me feel more motivated to participate in the zone activities and unlock tiers. On the other hand, it makes me feel like playing in Dry Top is wasted time, unless I want a specific reward from that zone.

I feel like the system of unlocking tiers/rewards could be carried over to other zones with some tweaking. But for me, the big thing is a persistent notion of progress and accomplishment.

For example: Say you take the event chains in a zone like Harathi Hinterlands and show the amount of centaur control vs. seraph control in a way that is similar to the Dry Top tier system. Something like this would mostly be a UI change and then you could add in certain merchants or zone-wide bonuses, depending on how much stuff is under seraph control.

Which would solve my complaints in that:
- Instead of a timer, like Dry Top, you base it on the events themselves.
- Difficulty stops mattering significantly because the related events for seraph control are specific and targeted.
- Any related rewards – if added – would be bought with universal currency.

Events are the game’s best open world content, no doubt. It’s the big sell – to wander around while you’re leveling your first character, and find yourself swept up in big events with a growing swell of a crowd. Remains fun to this day.

Issues with events?

- Visibility. I think the viewing area for events that aren’t zone-wide meta events is too small.

- no reason to seek great amounts of karma.

Mentioned this idea before, and I know it’d wreck havoc on the markets, but is there any possibility of making higher level mats purchasable with karma?

Alternatively, like Dry-Top, each zone or at least region could have some selection of high-level rewards available. Mini snow leopards and norn-themed gear from the snowy areas, golems and ray-guns from maguuma. Etc, etc.

Anthony, can you tell me why karma seems much less important now than it has been at release? There were a lot of karma-rewards when the game was new but new karma-sinks got quite rare over time. I currently have a lot of karma on my account and besides spending a small part of it for a legendary I have no idea what to do with it. Do you think we will see any new karma-sink somewhere in the future?

The system on drytop brings me to an idea how it could be used in zones with meta-event bosses. This would need much more effort from players so it’s important that rewards have to be adjusted considerably.

—> like drytop people will have to do enough events in a certain amount of time in order to start the meta-event chain

What would this solve?

• Meta bosses would feel much more important to that zone
• People would have to work for the chance to fight a boss
• bosses would give much better rewards
• people wouldn’t have to wait 1h before the boss spawns

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

The system on drytop brings me to an idea how it could be used in zones with meta-event bosses. This would need much more effort from players so it’s important that rewards have to be adjusted considerably.

—> like drytop people will have to do enough events in a certain amount of time in order to start the meta-event chain

What would this solve?

• Meta bosses would feel much more important to that zone
• People would have to work for the chance to fight a boss
• bosses would give much better rewards
• people wouldn’t have to wait 1h before the boss spawns

Hmm, or even something as simple as having event completion affecting drop rates in the zone.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

I think that the fact that DryTop is new is a huge factor in the play. But I totally agree that each zone should have a large meta reward & personal rewards. If there were full unique weapons & armor & back sets to craft/unlock in the zones that would be epic. But they will have to be significant. You can’t have 1 backpack or a pair of shoulders & gloves in a zone & expect people to go gaga over it. I’d love to play in the old zones with big over-arching push/pull type mechanics to get unique rewards.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

Yes Dry Top works very well, but its small and focussed. Hopefully new maps will much bigger like the rest of the game. Also, when the need to get stuff from Dry Top dies down and we move to other areas, how will it affect dry top and the tiers? Will there be enough people to unlock all tiers?

On the flip side, Southson is a disaster, an abandoned ghost town. It needs something like hearts to make it part of the world. Right now, there is precisely no reason to lead new players to it in any logical sense. It has no story or perceivable lore if you went there at the time of season 1. WHich is a shame, because I love that map and the work put into it by the designers.

I agree events should be the bulk content (and less rigidly timed compared to Dry Top), but hearts add lore and also enhance a region. I think the only issue I ever had with them was that they finished too quickly – after all spending more time exploring and playing the world is not going to be a bad thing

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

The intent of the Renown Heart system was originally to help players find event content. They also provide a decent method for us to give the player some context and awareness of what’s going on in the area. There are probably a few issues in that design which we could discuss. We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

On the topic of keeping players engaged with open world content, I think this goal may be for more approachable from a different angle. Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

Yes, but the problem with Drytop is that they are the same events over and over. There is only so many times you can do the same events until you get fedup of doing them.

The other problem with Drytop is that is small, I know it’s going to be a lot bigger when it’s done, but at the moment you can see all it has to offer in a few hours, and with the map goals, I’ve noticed there are “proffered” events, it might just be the maps I’m in but some events are totally ignored.

What I would like to see, I have no idea if this is possible, but at max level or on a sliding scale, I would like to see all DE’s give the same rewards depending on level no matter where you are in the world. So if you are out and about helping a friend level,
Mapping or just like a map for its look or feel, it’s worth your while doing them. Or even give a few mats for that level area. Like with map completion. That way if I wanted to get mats to help me level a crafting I would have a more viable way of doing it than doing dungons for gold to buy mats of the TP. And it keeps people in the open world.

There are many maps I’ve not been back to since mapping them 2 years ago, fire heart rise for instance, there would be many more if the living story had not taken me into maps I’d not been back to in ages. Being a guild wars 1 player I tend to stick to the areas I liked in Guild wars, maybe it’s me being sentimental, but I spend most of my time in Ascalon and Queens Dale. I sometimes go to Orr if I want some Obby shards, or want to do a temple, but they are not often. And with alts it’s just a case of being I. The map long enough to do the PS because all the rewards are in the high level maps.

I really enjoy the game. But if you want reward you have to go to the high level areas or world boss train. I feel that Drytop will end up
Like Southsun. Abandond once the LW leaves there and the prophet you can make from the area drys up. I think if it wasn’t for the back item people would probably not be there now, but the. It might be the best place at the moment to farm karma.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Anthony, can you tell me why karma seems much less important now that it has been at release?

We have added a few karma sinks along the way but typically new content comes with a new currency, eg. candy corn or geodes. I haven’t personally implemented all of this content or currency but if I had to guess I would say that this pattern exists because we actually want to give you specific rewards for specific content.

I totally understand the motivation for specific rewards; it’s a good thing to have special things attainable only in certain areas.

It’s a tough nut to crack, because the idea of a ‘earn anywhere, spend anywhere’ currency is really nice too.. specially for one that’s soulbound and doesn’t experience inflation.

So.. me, personally, I’d let karma be for fairly generic useful stuff.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Rethinking Nicolas the Traveller idea:

What if Nicolas successor doesn’t simply collect stuff from a map, but from certain locations in the whole game? Week 1 would be rare spawns in ruins in any zone, Week 2 would be rare spawns in caves/mines, week 3 in Ogre territory, etc. An additional dropchance from events in those locations.

People would finally feel rewarded to explore hidden mines, corners of Tyria… you can’t drop mystic coins in all of the maps

I’d be up for that, although i think he should move and with an objective to moving. Like “resupply the pact” or something like that. That could be pretty cool.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

I haven’t personally implemented all of this content or currency but if I had to guess I would say that this pattern exists because we actually want to give you specific rewards for specific content.

I love this answer… a lot. I always thought that having too generic rewards would be a bad thing for the game because people find that one area where events can be farmed best and ignore all the rest of the world. DryTop was a very good step in that direction imho. Thank you.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I feel that Drytop will end up Like Southsun. Abandond once the LW leaves there and the prophet you can make from the area drys up. I think if it wasn’t for the back item people would probably not be there now, but the. It might be the best place at the moment to farm karma.

I don’t think so because once you have those expensive rewards you can go for the much cheaper lockpicks. The chests aren’t too hard to find in those sandstorms and you get good loot out of them. + Anet can still add new loot to the hidden chests.

Lheimroo.2947:

It’s a tough nut to crack, because the idea of a ‘earn anywhere, spend anywhere’ currency is really nice too.. specially for one that’s soulbound and doesn’t experience inflation.

So.. me, personally, I’d let karma be for fairly generic useful stuff.

so it’s a good thing that we have both, generic currencies and specific currencies, everyone is happy

(a few more sinks for the generic currency would be nice though still)

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Anthony, can you tell me why karma seems much less important now that it has been at release?

We have added a few karma sinks along the way but typically new content comes with a new currency, eg. candy corn or geodes. I haven’t personally implemented all of this content or currency but if I had to guess I would say that this pattern exists because we actually want to give you specific rewards for specific content.

I posted that idea awhile ago (having area items that are trade able for area based stuff) but i also thought of the caveat, Those merchants should also be able to flush the overages. Either trade for karma (or copper) to give them more utility. I may have 500 geodes and bought everything i want for them (say 6 months later), but now i’m stuck with them, type thing. I know there is issue with balancing the economy, but i do think players still need more gold/karma earning potential (unlike the massive amount of jugs we once had). Just a thought. Gold talks?

I find this idea quite horrible, sorry. I’ve been dithering over buying another character slot for a while now, and the biggest thing that’s stopping me is doing “teach 15 Quoggans to catch crabs” again.

Some things more likely to draw my L80s to, say, Lornar’s Pass would be:
- Make downscaling work better, so it’s as hard as the Cursed Shore (I get the impression this is something to do with Ferocity)
- Nicky the traveller, descendant of a certain GW1 character
- Treasure hunts
- Interesting quests
- The same loot as a L80 area for a L80 character, including T6 and ascended materials, once the fights are the same difficulty

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We could also let it suffice to say that hearts do not make the best repeatable content the game has to offer.

We most certainly agree here.

Consider Dry Top, which has no hearts. Players on that map are participating in events all the time, largely on the premise that each event contributes to both map-level and personal-level goals. This gives me the notion that with a little help at the system level, events can and should be the bulk of repeatable open world content in Tyria.

I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

At least you are willing to listen, and thank you for the chance to communicate. I hate the map level, or boss event reward systems that we’ve had in this game. Yes, I have personal goals, but because of the megaserver system I simply cannot achieve the map level achieves for the Dry Top vendors. I had the same problems with the Scarlet Events.

My personal goals and rewards should not depend on megaserver population, cooperation, and language issues.

Thank you for listening.

Morte.5916:

- The same loot as a L80 area for a L80 character, including T6 and ascended materials, once the fights are the same difficulty

That’d mean if you have no low level characters, you can’t get low level mats. Linen, for example. Not good.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Anthony, can you tell me why karma seems much less important now that it has been at release?

We have added a few karma sinks along the way but typically new content comes with a new currency, eg. candy corn or geodes. I haven’t personally implemented all of this content or currency but if I had to guess I would say that this pattern exists because we actually want to give you specific rewards for specific content.

Thank you for the insight! That makes a lot of sense. Currency being delivered by certain areas prevents people from stockpiling universal currencies and getting rewards without experiencing the content.

Regarding the mechanics in Dry Top: after visiting every location in Dry Top, which is exceptionally beautiful, I only want Geodes for the backpiece and the various recipes in the long term. Farming them with the events gets boring after 1-2 hours, because it’s always exactly the same choreography.

There is also a difference in loot in and out of the sand storm: if I want to farm Geodes, I show up xx:38 and do the events during the sandstorm, resulting in 8 or 10 Geodes per event. The other 37 minutes of the hour I do something else, elsewhere. The events out of the sandstorm only bring 2 Geodes – I don’t see a point in being present in Dry Top and doing them if I only want Geodes.

I don’t understand the motivation behind the increasing bounty level and the last 20 minutes where you harvest what others have sown. It’s not a nice mechanic, and it is a monotonous cycle. And I have seen people who sell a taxi to a level 5 Dry Top in the lfg tool for money.

How about a system similar to the “Favor of the gods” from Guild Wars 1 and count event successes instead of maxed titles? After x successful events, the sandstorm comes for 30 minutes and bounties are doubled and prices halved, if you absolutely must have this sandstorm mechanic. I would rather not have this but give all the vendors the same items and the same price.

Or count successful events individually for each player and give him alone some perk or cheaper prices for some time if he reaches the required number of events. Save the number between map changes, so he can go offline in between.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

BrotherBelial.3094:

I feel that Drytop will end up Like Southsun. Abandond once the LW leaves there and the prophet you can make from the area drys up. I think if it wasn’t for the back item people would probably not be there now, but the. It might be the best place at the moment to farm karma.

I don’t think so because once you have those expensive rewards you can go for the much cheaper lockpicks. The chests aren’t too hard to find in those sandstorms and you get good loot out of them. + Anet can still add new loot to the hidden chests.

I’m personally not intrested in anything from the locked chests. Sure they are a nice free reward and a good dragonite farming spot, but with that said. I’m also not fussed with the rewards in Drytop. I don’t like the weapon skins you get using the fossils, I only got the Ascended inscription because I got the hammer in a chest and used it before I realised that I could have sold it. I did sell the second one I got.

I know ANet can’t please everyone. But for me personally Drytop is nothing but a Karma farm. And one I didn’t enjoy a whole lot. But as I said, that might just be me.