Guild Wars 2

A good point, one which I have been pondering for awhile.

It almost seems like a Chicken or the Egg issue; is it the MMO Company’s fault that players grind due to their design, or is it the players fault for accepting that this system is a good way about going things?

Also, I know quite a bit of kids in elementary/middle schools who say that WoW was their first video game (God help us) and don’t like console games because of the lack of “cool loot”. That appalls me.

I guess by a business standpoint, this is a good decision by Anet/NCSoft because it caters to the people who like to grind, the ones who will most likely be around the longest and most frequently logging in. As to if it holds up to what Anet claims their game to be… I hate potentially arguing that topic so I’ll stay neutral about it.

*Edit I also am displeased with players who complain about the drop system. Remember the RNG/DR days on the forum? Ughhhhh….

Fun first, loot later.

I mostly agree. A lot of problems are based on a lack of balance in the reward system. Rewards were not balanced at game launch. Many reward changes have been inappropriate for the content, a bit like putting square pegs in round holes. Many reward changes have balanced one aspect of rewards and broken others, so players migrate from one set of game content to another after each patch.

Having said that though, all MMOs have a reward system. Other factors are at work such as the style of end game content and lack of goals. There’s possibly an argument that the widespread accessibility of game content for lone players has created a selfish attitude, with little or no compromise for long term social benefits. Even the guild system promotes individual freedom within a loose collective.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Holy-Grind-Wars-2/page/3#post2767235

1,090 responses; Holy Grind 2

Op, take a look.

As i said over and over again,

it’s either reward or grind/nerf.

You stated how Arena.net is rewarding us too much for everything we do, so where is the problem?

I agree that we are being spoiled by them a bit but would it been better to not be or be?

It seem you are being ungrateful and unappreciative of what Arena.net has done in rewarding you.

I believe in practice of Justice and against practice of InJustice (look at my history and see)

In other word,

Arena.net Reward implinentation is Just

Stooperdale.3560:

I mostly agree. A lot of problems are based on a lack of balance in the reward system. Rewards were not balanced at game launch. Many reward changes have been inappropriate for the content, a bit like putting square pegs in round holes. Many reward changes have balanced one aspect of rewards and broken others, so players migrate from one set of game content to another after each patch.

Having said that though, all MMOs have a reward system. Other factors are at work such as the style of end game content. There’s possibly an argument that the widespread accessibility of game content for lone players has created a selfish attitude, with little or no compromise for long term social benefits. Even the guild system promotes individual freedom within a loose collective.

Sure, and I have acknowledged that games need rewards. Plain and simple. But tied to everything? Or rather, must the rewards be changed or unique or a different system to reward new activities?

Picture this: An entire month(roughly two patches(2 week content updates)) where all we get are more dynamic events in zones such as: Orr, Timberlain Falls, Frostgorge sound, Iron Marches, and Kessix Hills. Just dynamic events, maybe a few hearts. Regular events, some with longer chains. Just..content. Maybe open a new zone with just content. Nothing special. Just content. New content that you have never seen before. Maybe a hidden cave or something.

Ask yourself if this is something you would spend time exploring. My guess: people might check it out quickly, realize its run of the mill, and head back to invasion farmin, queensdale champ farming, dungeon farming, LS achievements, etc…whatever nets the most profit and reward.

Burnfall.9573:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Holy-Grind-Wars-2/page/3#post2767235

1,090 responses; Holy Grind 2

Op, take a look.

As i said over and over again,

it’s either reward or grind/nerf.

You stated how Arena.net is rewarding us too much for everything we do, so where is the problem?

I agree that we are being spoiled by them a bit but would it been better to not be or be?

It seem you are being ungrateful and unappreciative of what Arena.net has done in rewarding you.

I believe in practice of Justice and against practice of InJustice (look at my history and see)

In other word,

Arena.net Reward implinentation is Just

Im running rampid in that thread… you don’t see me running around? Trust me, Ive read it.

It is not that I am ungrateful. But why must you NEED to be rewarded for everything? Cant you simply play to have fun?

I actually feel like it’s more the players fault than Anet’s. At launch this game definitely wasnt’ like that – achievements were just something to do on the side, or a check list of what you have done (for things like bosses and jumping puzzles), there was very little vertical progression, especially after level 80, PvP and WvW had basically no rewards at all.

But from day 1 that’s the thing players kept demanding, and they pretty much proved they wouldn’t play content with it so Anet were left either having to add more rewards, and then somehow make sure everything was rewarded equally, or accept that players were going to ignore large areas of the game.

Having come from playing single-player games, mainly RPGs, it seems like a very strange idea to me. Especially this idea of not playing some content at all because the rewards are ‘not worth it’. What’s the point in having these items if you’re not playing the game? As soon as you log out you’ve effectively got nothing to show for your time but the memory and the fun you had doing it so to me that’s the only thing really worth playing for.

And it’s definitely still possible to play this game that way. You don’t need any of the reward items, even ascended gear, to play so if it doesn’t interest you then you can just ignore it. Which from what I’ve heard makes it better than a lot of MMOs.

Like anything it ultimately comes down to what the majority do – if people keep demanding “material” rewards and ignoring content that doesn’t have them Anet will keep making content like that. If people stop worrying about it and play whatever seems fun that will become the focus.

@daniket: First, any other MMO you can ignore the gear grind and rewards too. Nothing against you, but I really dont see how people feel guild wars 2 is different in this regard. Ignore them in GW2, ignore them in WoW..Grind for Ascended in GW2, raid in WoW…who cares? Play how you want, right?

Secondly, I agree. It is a section of the playerbase that has been conditioned from the likes of WoW, and those gear grind games that came before and after it. They clamored for that type of content. Verticle progression and rewards. So we are slammed with it all. Now, you hear the word reward, and you quickly head to dulfy to find out the fastest route possible for that reward. You get that reward and feel proud. Did you have a lot of fun getting there? I dont know. For me, no. Once arenanet started giving people incentives to play, is when the atmosphere shifted for me. Instead of fun, engaging content with really cool looking environments and awsome bosses with huge looking weapons, and all of that kind of stuff…we are given rewards, recycled content, temporary content, RNG..but at the center of it all is rewards.

They could not give us a visually awsome game that took it to a whole new level.. They had to give us rewards instead.

If arenane hit the rewind button and asked us which would we prefer.. A) Really cool bosses, lots of new zones and content, new skills. Lots of beautiful areas and places to explore. Awsome dialogue and lore bits to be found. New enemies to fight, new tragedies to stave off. True dynamic events that have consequence on the world… Ascended gear, lots of gold, lots of skins, lots of minis, a lot of mini games, lots of short stories, lots of T5/T6 mats..

I would dhoose option A. In a heartbeat.

cesmode.4257:

Picture this: An entire month(roughly two patches(2 week content updates)) where all we get are more dynamic events in zones such as: Orr, Timberlain Falls, Frostgorge sound, Iron Marches, and Kessix Hills. Just dynamic events, maybe a few hearts. Regular events, some with longer chains. Just..content. Maybe open a new zone with just content. Nothing special. Just content. New content that you have never seen before. Maybe a hidden cave or something.

Would love this. I’d love New DE’s with longer chains and lore in all the zones.Like the Attunement Crystal DE with the Shining Blade and White Mantle in Brisban Wildlands. Yeah, that one… (does anyone even know about it >.<)

Danikat.8537:

I actually feel like it’s more the players fault than Anet’s. At launch this game definitely wasnt’ like that – achievements were just something to do on the side, or a check list of what you have done (for things like bosses and jumping puzzles), there was very little vertical progression, especially after level 80, PvP and WvW had basically no rewards at all.

But from day 1 that’s the thing players kept demanding, and they pretty much proved they wouldn’t play content with it so Anet were left either having to add more rewards, and then somehow make sure everything was rewarded equally, or accept that players were going to ignore large areas of the game.

Having come from playing single-player games, mainly RPGs, it seems like a very strange idea to me. Especially this idea of not playing some content at all because the rewards are ‘not worth it’. What’s the point in having these items if you’re not playing the game? As soon as you log out you’ve effectively got nothing to show for your time but the memory and the fun you had doing it so to me that’s the only thing really worth playing for.

And it’s definitely still possible to play this game that way. You don’t need any of the reward items, even ascended gear, to play so if it doesn’t interest you then you can just ignore it. Which from what I’ve heard makes it better than a lot of MMOs.

Like anything it ultimately comes down to what the majority do – if people keep demanding “material” rewards and ignoring content that doesn’t have them Anet will keep making content like that. If people stop worrying about it and play whatever seems fun that will become the focus.

Very much this.

It is possible to play the game just for fun as I am sure many people including myself do.
I do feel that the reward system has gotten so out of hand and players so spoilt that any day now I expect people to ask for a reward for logging in.

The worst thing about the whole time put in vs reward argument is that the content players feel is “worth” their time is often the worst types of content i.e. champ farming, Scarlet invasions, pavilion farming etc.
Mindless, no-effort, repetitive content that teaches absolutely no skill at playing the game.

Then you have content like the new Teq fight that is the exact opposite of a champ farm.
It is great content- it is also completely up to you if you do it.
What are players doing? Crying to get it nerfed and the rewards increased and to have fail rewards.

This puts Anet in a bad position because they are a business and want to keep their players, who are becoming more and more entitled each patch.

What we have now is a disproportional reward system.
You get rewarded beyond your wildest dreams for running around like a bot, while playing content in the rest of the game nets you an income, sometimes.

Not sure how to fix it though- not rewarding for fails would be a start I guess.

Wait, OP, you just learned about Pavlov, and behaviorism ? Human behavior ?

Yeah, MMO’s are often are great way of reaching the natural addiction of “effort/reward” in the human psychology.

“Why should I do this if I don’t get nothing in the end ?”

See, playing games in general is much like gambling. You start doing it for fun, but it isn’t. It all happens fast; you start, and you get a reward. “Hey, that felt nice. Meh, it’s not that bad, I could still do it for a few minutes…” and you get another reward. “Hey ! Cool ! That’s nice.” and the cycle repeats itself.

But, like gambling and drugs…

You start giving a few more minutes every time. And rewards are there everytime. It just takes a little more effort, a little more dedication. But you want it. You want that reward. Why not, after all ? I mean, you worked for it, you should get something, right ?

Yeah, some guy somewhere is laughing looking at grinders and farmers, and the people that keep playing day after day after day. It’s an addiction, in the end.

It’s just hilarious when you take a few steps back and look at it.

cesmode.4257:

Ive sort of come to the conclusion that, like Blizzard, Arenanet is conditioning us.

+1 for this topic!

I never played any type of rewarding system like this from GW2, basicaly every single thing you do, rewards you with something… I don’t understand why so many rewards? You won a special box for champions?chests for World Bosses? Gold/Token for Dungeons? Chests/Items for Complete Achievements? Chests for Jumping Puzzles?

Trust me I like receive reward when I accomplish something, but a lot of these items are just auto-rewards! For this reason the only items that I really feel proud of to have is my set of Arah and my mini’s Liadri, otherwise… you know, are just one more item collecting dust in my bank.

I think the problem arises because there is really no “end-game” in this game genre. Think about it. If you play Halo, you can beat the game. It’s over, you’ve gotten your feeling of accomplishment. In an MMO, how do you “win”? Once you’ve reached 80 you still (likely) can do so much more. What is it that can keep you in the game and buying more gems? Because that’s what a business wants. Your money. They must find a way to get it. Rewards, be they tokens or skins or whatever, keep you here and playing and spending money.

Since when giving some people a reward at the end of an activity is considered bad?

I mean… wtf.

You enjoy something? You do it. And additionally you get an extra shiny stuff for it.

What is the problem lol.

Przemek.6835:

Since when giving some people a reward at the end of an activity is considered bad?

I mean… wtf.

Rewards for everything —> Sense of Entitlement --> Players wanting loot more than fun.

I’m not saying that rewards should not be included, its just that rewards shouldn’t be the focus of gameplay.

I think a big problem here is simply the fact how many mats (or gold) you need if you want to have some of the nice skins. And i don’t even talk about Legendarys.

The “endgame” in GW2 is however skin-based, so you want maybe your Vision of the Mists and then see you need 250 Ectos and 1500 Orichalcum .. then you like maybe to have also T3 cultural Armor .. and you see the prices ..

Meili Ying.3820:

Przemek.6835:

Since when giving some people a reward at the end of an activity is considered bad?

I mean… wtf.

Rewards for everything —> Sense of Entitlement --> Players wanting loot more than fun.

I’m not saying that rewards should not be included, its just that rewards shouldn’t be the focus of gameplay.

Uhmm no? If you get a reward for everything then the value of reward starts to go down because everyone can get it. Common sense.

Anyways what’s the diffrence? Would you play the game that is not fun but has shiny rewards?

If people play then they obviously enjoy it. Either the way they anchieve said reward or the reward itself.

Przemek.6835:

Since when giving some people a reward at the end of an activity is considered bad?

I mean… wtf.

You enjoy something? You do it. And additionally you get an extra shiny stuff for it.

What is the problem lol.

When all you begin to think about are rewards, how is that fun? Do you even care what youre doing at that point? Just as long as you get the milk bone at the end?

And someone else mentioned it: If everyone gets the same reward and everyone walks around with the same stuff, it waters down the value. If everyone had The Dreamer(legendary), who cares at that point? If everyone was rewarded a legendary,it waters down the uniqueness.

While I think the legendary grind needs to be adjusted in certain areas, I do think that it is still something to strive for, for a long time. But showering us in gold, T6/T7 mats, rares and exotics to be salvaged…all while playing monotonous invasions…Is that truely fun? Do you care about what you are doing? Are you playing with one hand, and smoking a cig with the other? Do you have your favorite TV show on the second monitor, only paying half attention to what youre doing in game because you’ll be rewarded regardless?

My point is with this entire thread, and those of you that are defending the amount of rewards are only proving me correct, is that arenanet has conditioned us to feel entitled to rewards, and to really go after rewards instead of going after “fun”. There are some really cool event chains in abandoned zones that no one knows about. There is some really cool dialogue between NPCs, but no one sticks around after the event to see. They run off to the next event to get the next reward.

I dont want to say Im immune to this. I definately speed through portions. But I can admit that, until now, Ive been addicted to the amount of rewards that are given to you for everything you do.

I wonder what type of game this would be if we all played because we enjoyed the content of the game. And not playing for rewards.

I don’t think you need to look at guild wars II to see loot put over fun. Way back in old Everquest I the marketing men knew exactly how to sell expansions. In each new expansion there were zones where you could get more xp and better loot. Players would spend their real life money to get these zones. Even the best designed and most interesting low level zones in the old world became deserted as all the players moved to the new dull zones at the same level in the new world. It was a shocking devaluation of game assets (old zones) by the designers but they got away with it for a long time because players put rewards (for time spent) ahead of fun and adventure.

I see in GW2 many attempts to break the failings of older MMOs. However the new design creates new problems and reward balancing is one of those problems.

cesmode.4257:

Burnfall.9573:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Holy-Grind-Wars-2/page/3#post2767235

1,090 responses; Holy Grind 2

Op, take a look.

As i said over and over again,

it’s either reward or grind/nerf.

You stated how Arena.net is rewarding us too much for everything we do, so where is the problem?

I agree that we are being spoiled by them a bit but would it been better to not be or be?

It seem you are being ungrateful and unappreciative of what Arena.net has done in rewarding you.

I believe in practice of Justice and against practice of InJustice (look at my history and see)

In other word,

Arena.net Reward implinentation is Just

Im running rampid in that thread… you don’t see me running around? Trust me, Ive read it.

It is not that I am ungrateful. But why must you NEED to be rewarded for everything? Cant you simply play to have fun?

Because people don’t want rewards for the sake of getting rewards, getting money can used for all kinds of carrots/goals that keep you playing.

Not to mention the simple activity that gives “Rewards” can also be fun at the same time.

If Anet did nothing but add a ton of new dynamic events (aka the same old garbage that exists) no one would do them, because 1. They aren’t rewarding (that’s a given), but also 2. They’re not fun, at all.

It need to be one or the other, but ideally both.

Too many people that keep hating on “rewards” and think they know better, it’s such a silly mindset lol. That’s just one part of the problem.

cesmode.4257:

Don’t believe me? Try going to another game after you have had your complete fill of GW2 and try not to expect the game to reward you for everything. I bet for a lot of us, it will be difficult.

Alright, done.

Playing minecraft.

Knote.2904:

cesmode.4257:

Burnfall.9573:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Holy-Grind-Wars-2/page/3#post2767235

1,090 responses; Holy Grind 2

Op, take a look.

As i said over and over again,

it’s either reward or grind/nerf.

You stated how Arena.net is rewarding us too much for everything we do, so where is the problem?

I agree that we are being spoiled by them a bit but would it been better to not be or be?

It seem you are being ungrateful and unappreciative of what Arena.net has done in rewarding you.

I believe in practice of Justice and against practice of InJustice (look at my history and see)

In other word,

Arena.net Reward implinentation is Just

Im running rampid in that thread… you don’t see me running around? Trust me, Ive read it.

It is not that I am ungrateful. But why must you NEED to be rewarded for everything? Cant you simply play to have fun?

Because people don’t want rewards for the sake of getting rewards, getting money can used for all kinds of carrots/goals that keep you playing.

Not to mention the simple activity that gives “Rewards” can also be fun at the same time.

If Anet did nothing but add a ton of new dynamic events (aka the same old garbage that exists) no one would do them, because 1. They aren’t rewarding (that’s a given), but also 2. They’re not fun, at all.

It need to be one or the other, but ideally both.

Too many people that keep hating on “rewards” and think they know better, it’s such a silly mindset lol. That’s just one part of the problem.

cesmode.4257:

Don’t believe me? Try going to another game after you have had your complete fill of GW2 and try not to expect the game to reward you for everything. I bet for a lot of us, it will be difficult.

Alright, done.

Playing minecraft.

I meant an MMO, my friend. Minecraft does not qualify.

Knote.2904:

Too many people that keep hating on “rewards” and think they know better, it’s such a silly mindset lol. That’s just one part of the problem.

I don’t think that the OP is hating on rewards; I think he’s hating on the mindset of putting rewards first as opposed to fun and innovative gameplay when it comes to making a game.

Przemek.6835:

Uhmm no? If you get a reward for everything then the value of reward starts to go down because everyone can get it. Common sense.

Anyways what’s the diffrence? Would you play the game that is not fun but has shiny rewards?

If people play then they obviously enjoy it. Either the way they anchieve said reward or the reward itself.

Your first statement would be true if the rewards system was all cosmetic at its highest level during the earlier months of the game. That is not the case with the game at this point. In fact, if Ascended gear was just implemented at launch and updates revolved around refining gameplay/teamwork mechanics, this discussion probably wouldn’t be happening and I probably would not be looking down on the rewards mentality (of players and MMO company) as I am right now. Same to say if Ascended gear becomes the last tier of gear without any additional power creep. If that happens, I’ll eat my socks and admit I’m wrong.

There are players who are complaining about the amount of materials/time it takes to craft an ascended weapon. Many want it now (only after 2 weeks of being released) because Exotics were so easy to get which makes this jump in requirements to obtain just one weapon quite shocking to those who got full sets of exotics quickly with little effort. Almost everything they can do gives a “reward” to reach this shiny, but the value to them is in the stats of the weapon (instead of the experience of the gameplay), and the value of BiS stats doesn’t go down. Are they finding it fun? I can’t speak for them, but the complaints say otherwise. That’s what’s bothering me: they claim they aren’t having fun with what they are doing yet they do it anyway. Why are they doing it? Because stats, and stats are the reward they feel like they need to get in order to “keep up” rather than just to play for the fun of the gameplay.

The problem is twofold:
1) Many players nowadays want their loot in the best risk/reward ratio possible in the fastest amount of time, and won’t go out of the way to do something that is a bit more challenging (and perhaps fun) if it doesn’t give better rewards compared to what else they would do. People are already speculating this with Tequatl.

and

2) MMO companies, like cesmode said, have conditioned players to have this want, and feel that they need to center the game/game updates around rewards systems rather than having innovative gameplay. It feels like fluff for the exploring/adventuring type of player, but actual content to the grind addict.

Would you play the game that is not fun but has shiny rewards?

No. Completely the opposite.
I believe that developing fun gameplay should come first, not material rewards.

I don’t think the problem is just with MMOs, I think it is with society in general. The attitude of ‘Me, Me, Me, Now, Now, Now’ is becoming far too common. People are wanting everything new and shiny and they want it as soon as it comes out, even if the variant they had is only a few months old and still does the job perfectly well, take a look at peoples attitude to smart phones for example.

At the same time people need a goal in these games, whether it is finishing the story or getting the best gear, when you have nothing to work towards is when people lose interest and leave the game.

A lot of people are also competitive and when they do succeed they want others to know it which is why the rewards and achievement points are needed to keep people playing.

So, in my view, the top end gear and achievements which are the ultimate rewards should be very hard to get, but should be available either through besting difficult bosses or through investing enough time into general game play, (call it a grind if you want). I personally would want the rewards for boss fights linked not to the level of the boss or to your level but to the difficulty in winning, taking into account the number of players, and each characters level compared to the Champ. This might also help spread players between the zones as taking down a champ single handed would give a higher reward than just joining a zerg.

Most of what you say is similar to my own opinion, however one one major point I agree. ArenaNet is not continuing to brainwash people, rather it is attempting to please everyone. This game is still a great game even when not chasing a carrot, there are plenty of fun things to do in it for fun’s sake. However a large portion of today’s MMO players no longer know how to play for fun, so to attempt to please them achievements and rewards are offered.

Their attempts to close exploitable farming spots is proof they are attempting to make the game remain about having fun not just chasing the carrot, however the carrot chasers love the path of least resistance and therefore are upset when shortcuts are closed.

“Ive sort of come to the conclusion that, like Blizzard, Arenanet is conditioning us.
Warning: a bit of a wall.
TLDR; We are conditioned by Arenanet to play only for rewards, and not for the sake of playing. This is because they pump the game full of rewards, checklists, achievements, minis, and shinies. They use this word “reward” often in order to trigger this type of behavior.”

And yet today many of us on the overflow of TC were talking about how even with the changes to the difficulty of 1 open world boss, they still haven’t learned how to balance the level of content with the level of the reward everyone should receive when fighting such things. It’s STILL to this day even with all of the positive changes coming down the bend, a game where the rewards do NOT match the activities!

I think this thread is aimed more at the living world content?

The temporary bite sized version of a treadmill, a low quality hamster wheel for everyone to work their little hearts on over to get their temporary achievement points, it really does feel awful.

I’d prefer higher quality PERMANENT content each month.

cesmode.4257:

@daniket: First, any other MMO you can ignore the gear grind and rewards too. Nothing against you, but I really dont see how people feel guild wars 2 is different in this regard. Ignore them in GW2, ignore them in WoW..Grind for Ascended in GW2, raid in WoW…who cares? Play how you want, right?

Maybe I should have clarified that more. As I understand it in WoW and similar games certain content is either impossible to complete or literally locked until you get specific gear. You can’t go on to a new raid until you’ve got the full set from the one before. Like trying to do high level Fractals without Agony Resistance, but with the difference that this is unique content that you don’t get to see any other way. (Whereas you can play through every Fractal on level 1 if you want to.)

So yes you can skip raiding for gear if you want to. But you won’t be able to try out other raids without it. Whereas in GW2 you can do absolutely everything in exotics (which you can get relatively cheaply or easily, I bought a full set with karma as soon as I hit level 80), or even if rare or lower gear. For example my first dungeon was the Molten Facility, then I did Arah p2. At the time I’d been level 80 for about 2 weeks and didn’t even have a full set of exotics but it didn’t matter, I could still play all the content.

cesmode.4257:

Secondly, I agree. It is a section of the playerbase that has been conditioned from the likes of WoW, and those gear grind games that came before and after it. They clamored for that type of content. Verticle progression and rewards. So we are slammed with it all. Now, you hear the word reward, and you quickly head to dulfy to find out the fastest route possible for that reward. You get that reward and feel proud.

Maybe you do. I don’t. When a new updates comes out I’ll read the patch notes (on the Wiki because they have extra notes sometimes), any in-game mail and look at the achievement list but just to get an idea of what the update actually is and what’s on offer. Then I just start playing it. I won’t look at guides unless I’m completely lost or there’s something I really want to do and it’s very close to the deadline. (And minor point but again I prefer using the wiki if the info is on there, and if it isn’t I’ll add what I can.)

Yes I’ve gotten some reward items I enjoy, or feel proud of having. But for me it’s either because I’m proud of having completed the content to get it (like the SAB titles and if I’d succeeded the mini Liadri) or because I like the item in it’s own right (like my mini racing moa – easy and fairly boring to get but it’s a tiny moa in an oversized hat!). There’s others I’ve opted to skip, like the Watchknight tonic and probably the Wings of the Sunless because neither the reward or the content interests me.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I put the blame on the players and not on the company. The game launched with little to no rewards for most activities and “not feeling rewarded” was one of the main complaints on the forum. GW2 attracted a lot of MMO players that have been conditioned to only care about rewards by other games, and those players wanted change. In fact, I recall that when the first minigames where introduced in Halloween, one of the thread had the OP asking “what is the point?” and a red poster going, and I quote, " gasp… fun? ".

We can’t really blame when they pander to what (I suppose) is the majority of the playerbase.

Players have been conditioned to getting loot going all the way back to D&D PNP. Blizzard only perfected a system that worked for their sub-based monetization.

ANet tried making a game wherein people would repeat content because it was fun. If they are now concentrating on rewards, it is because players moaned about how unrewarding the game was (and still are, witness the moan posts about Teq “only” dropping world boss rewards plus 1g plus small chance for a “special drop”).

It’s late, and I didn’t take time to read EVERY reply, so forgive me if this has been said.

For me, what is most rewarding, is CHALLENGE. Actually, not so much challenge, moreso overcoming challenge. Jumping Puzzles without guides or w/e are challenging to me. SAB first release was a challenge; I played this through with 4 friends, without a single guide, and we completed all of it. We discovered everything ourselves. The ‘reward’ was a title mostly, but the challenge is what made it worth its while.

This is what the game lacks for me. A challenge. A sense of accomplishment. It’s too easy to get somewhere due to waypoints. It’s often too easy to clear a mob or an event (not always, I know).

I know the game has been designed to be casual, but I still think that you can add a lot more challenging content in the game. Stuff that takes actual teamwork, coordination, a keen eye, a little experience, rather than just a zerg large enough to overcome whatever is ahead.

Gnight everyone

Rewards is a way to make players repeat same content over and over again in MMORPG games.
Doing dungeon for first, maybe second and third times is fun. But repeating it over and over again is not, this is how it works in single-player games. So there MMO developers introduce rewards, so you will repeat doing same content until you get all rewards. This is a cheap way to keep players in game.

Blizzard fell, Square Enix is falling fast, I fear that Arenanet is slipping away……

There are at least two reasons players are playing this game, specifically the new content as it comes out. The first is that they want to play the game and experience the new content, the second is because they’re mad for rewards, as the OP describes. ANet is taking care of both of us, so what’s the problem?

If you find that you are playing just for the rewards, that’s on you. If you don’t like having that as your motivation, do something about it, but don’t claim that having reward available alongside this stream of new content is a design shortcoming.

we are condition to play for rewards becasue thats all the community wants. gw2 has tons of rich lore and people ignore that stuff because spending 2 hours in a dungeon for 50 silver and a few common drops is not worth it. the gw2 community does not play the game for lore. they play it for fun and loot, and anet knows this. they make the loot fitting for the challenge, but when they up the rewards elsewhere, everyone flocks there and no one does the less rewarding stuff.

Well I don’t think rewards are a bad thing. Especially in these kinds of games so I really have no idea what your beef is with.

Playing the game can indeed and SHOULD be fun just for doing so, however earning rewards on top of that is always a nice bonus. In these kinds of games building up wealth alongside of your character strength etc is usually all part of the fun of it. Again, rewards are NOT a bad thing.

I can and easily do play other games that don’t reward me in a reward type of system that gives shines. A good example is that I have always been a civilization fan and when I’m not playing GW2 there is a good chance I am playing civ5. There you build up your nation and can go to war with others to win the game or win in other ways. There is no shinies to earn as such but you do take their land/cash etc. The true reward however is playing the game to the best of your ability and winning by the strategy that you set and use.

I’m sure many people here still play the COD series as well as plenty of other games where you get no shines and have a blast.

Don’t go labelling us all as greedy shiny collectors and say it’s a bad thing. Because once again I say that is usually a big part of what makes THESE types of games fun. Start from nothing, build up your char, build up your wealth and then look back on it all and feel proud of what you have accomplished. What is so wrong with that?

Paulytnz.7619:

Well I don’t think rewards are a bad thing. Especially in these kinds of games so I really have no idea what your beef is with.

Playing the game can indeed and SHOULD be fun just for doing so, however earning rewards on top of that is always a nice bonus. In these kinds of games building up wealth alongside of your character strength etc is usually all part of the fun of it. Again, rewards are NOT a bad thing.

I can and easily do play other games that don’t reward me in a reward type of system that gives shines. A good example is that I have always been a civilization fan and when I’m not playing GW2 there is a good chance I am playing civ5. There you build up your nation and can go to war with others to win the game or win in other ways. There is no shinies to earn as such but you do take their land/cash etc. The true reward however is playing the game to the best of your ability and winning by the strategy that you set and use.

I’m sure many people here still play the COD series as well as plenty of other games where you get no shines and have a blast.

Don’t go labelling us all as greedy shiny collectors and say it’s a bad thing. Because once again I say that is usually a big part of what makes THESE types of games fun. Start from nothing, build up your char, build up your wealth and then look back on it all and feel proud of what you have accomplished. What is so wrong with that?

You can’t compare an MMO with a shooter. You cant compare an MMO with civilization. In a shooter, you shoot things, maybe progress yourself a bit and thats about it. In civilization, you build up a civ and thats about it. In MMOs, its a much more complicated beast and yes there should be rewards in an MMO to keep players in the game because a developer will be constantly adding content to the game, and they need their players to be playing and spending money on the game.

With that said, now that we can effectively eliminate the comparison to COD and Civ, if all you play an MMO for is for shinies and loot, then thats your prerogative. But there is much more to a gaming experience than collecting loot and the sooner people realize it, the better off we will be. The better off a developer will be.

Just as an interesting observation: Look back prior to November 15th and prior to when the game began showering us with loot. The forums were much more positive in my opinion. Sure there were people complaining that there wasnt much to do. But I feel those people were less noisy than the complainers of today(myself :P). This forum was a much more pleasant place to be. Now, it is toxic. Noisy.

I think the reason for this is because we now have a sense of entitlement: “Well wheres my shiny?!!?” Instead of playing the game and simply having fun because its a video game.

cesmode.4257:

I think the reason for this is because we now have a sense of entitlement: “Well wheres my shiny?!!?” Instead of playing the game and simply having fun because its a video game.

Just curious, and I brought this up a little earlier in the thread, but who do you think is more to blame for this sense of entitlement? Is it the MMO companies that have tried (and albeit succeeded) in conditioning us to have this sense of entitlement? Or is it the players who accepted that the company’s way of doing things is good? Or is it fault on both sides for allowing this cycle to continue (most likely the reason)?

Meili Ying.3820:

cesmode.4257:

I think the reason for this is because we now have a sense of entitlement: “Well wheres my shiny?!!?” Instead of playing the game and simply having fun because its a video game.

Just curious, and I brought this up a little earlier in the thread, but who do you think is more to blame for this sense of entitlement? Is it the MMO companies that have tried (and albeit succeeded) in conditioning us to have this sense of entitlement? Or is it the players who accepted that the company’s way of doing things is good? Or is it fault on both sides for allowing this cycle to continue (most likely the reason)?

When Guild Wars 2 was released there was a huge emphasis on having fun, the main attraction of the game were the Dynamic events, an ever changing world (with new DEs) and lots of exploration. If you dig some of the old posts from when the game was released it was highly praised for that kind of “fun”, exploring and moving around the world and do things as they happen around you.

Unfortunately, as the months progressed this type of player became the minority, now the players search for the optimal champion farm train, look for timers to join World Bosses and of course are on an Achievement hunt. Recent releases made the game more of that and I don’t see any signs of Anet returning back to the roots (DEs), and instead they’ll give us more and more farming spots/opportunities and playing for the shinies instead of fun.

Is it Anet to blame? Yes, to a degree, but I believe deep inside lots of players were requesting this type of content, I can’t prove it, but since they continue on this road, their concurency numbers or gem store sales or whatever must be going well. Artificial or not (due to time gating) it’s what matters to them I guess. There was also a post by an Anet dev that they added some new Dynamic Events with the October release (2012 – Mad King), but they didn’t see much praise for them on the forums or elsewhere, so they thought that players didn’t like that type of content. While the new farm spots/changes to World Bosses etc cause long and long discussions….

Meili Ying.3820:

cesmode.4257:

I think the reason for this is because we now have a sense of entitlement: “Well wheres my shiny?!!?” Instead of playing the game and simply having fun because its a video game.

Just curious, and I brought this up a little earlier in the thread, but who do you think is more to blame for this sense of entitlement? Is it the MMO companies that have tried (and albeit succeeded) in conditioning us to have this sense of entitlement? Or is it the players who accepted that the company’s way of doing things is good? Or is it fault on both sides for allowing this cycle to continue (most likely the reason)?

First, Maddoctor is spot on with everything.

Secondly, I think Arenanet abandoned their principles way too quickly. Either they only used them as marketing ploys to lure us in, or they simply gave up the good fight way too quickly.

I think it is a combination of the developer and the playerbase. They feed off one another. If a playerbase says “I want moar shinies, more farming spots, more redundancy”..developers say “sure!” and copy/paste content in. Do you think the invasions were much different than the gauntlet farming? Its just seas of mobs being mowed down in both cases really.

The game has become quite saturated with this type of content and the inflation of it continues to grow. Im not sure if Arenanet’s in-house economist knows what hes doing because hes supporting these farming events. Im not sure if the lead designers necessarily have their pulse on the playerbase. Do their stats truely tell them that we went grinds and farms, simplistic content, fluffy content? I know I want more rewarding content, interesting stories rather than extremely linear crap than what we have been given.

Maybe this is the beginning of the turn of the tide. MMOs might be grinind(no pun) out their niché in the industry. WoW is/has been regarding the king of treadmills and raiding. GW2 is and will be dubbed the king of grinding and farming. Wildstar is and will be dubbed the king of hardcore content and will challenge WoW in terms of raiding (all of the hardcores that left WoW are sitting in Wildstar fan-site forums salivating btw).

I don’t see anything wrong with rewards.
By the way every genre and every game does it. You do something in order to get something. You dig trough dirt in Minecraft in order to find coal, diamonds, any material that you need, you get your sim a job in The Sims in order to get that piece of furniture that you want, you want to play shooters longer because of all the special weapons and tags that you can unlock. Every game has always had some sort of reward system. You don’t bash bricks in Mario just because, you bash them because coins fall out.
Though I don’t like being compared to a dog.

cesmode.4257:

First, Maddoctor is spot on with everything.

Secondly, I think Arenanet abandoned their principles way too quickly. Either they only used them as marketing ploys to lure us in, or they simply gave up the good fight way too quickly.

I think it is a combination of the developer and the playerbase. They feed off one another. If a playerbase says “I want moar shinies, more farming spots, more redundancy”..developers say “sure!” and copy/paste content in. Do you think the invasions were much different than the gauntlet farming? Its just seas of mobs being mowed down in both cases really.

The game has become quite saturated with this type of content and the inflation of it continues to grow. Im not sure if Arenanet’s in-house economist knows what hes doing because hes supporting these farming events. Im not sure if the lead designers necessarily have their pulse on the playerbase. Do their stats truely tell them that we went grinds and farms, simplistic content, fluffy content? I know I want more rewarding content, interesting stories rather than extremely linear crap than what we have been given.

Maybe this is the beginning of the turn of the tide. MMOs might be grinind(no pun) out their niché in the industry. WoW is/has been regarding the king of treadmills and raiding. GW2 is and will be dubbed the king of grinding and farming. Wildstar is and will be dubbed the king of hardcore content and will challenge WoW in terms of raiding (all of the hardcores that left WoW are sitting in Wildstar fan-site forums salivating btw).

Yeah, it’s a shame that Anet had to walk this path so early.

I’ve also got to thinking that Anet should focus on much better story for their living world. In other words, they should focus on the “RPG” over the “MMO”. Instead of finding 10 teeth or mowing down endless mobs for no reason, they should’ve kept the mini-missions style with Rox and Braham back in January; there was story (well, better than what we’ve been getting in recent months) and there were set rewards for each on completion. But I feel that material rewards are meaningless without a good story to back it up.

Pardon me for delving into console games, but I’d like to make an analogy to the -Tales Of- series. These games had good combat systems, but they eventually felt very spammy since you could only equip 4 Artes at one given time. Also, you would often have to grind for virtually everything (rewards/gear/money, you name it) to power up your characters. But I can say that I clearly enjoy this series more than I do GW2 at this point. Why? Because -Tales of- Game I have played has an AMAZING story, and that in itself makes all the grind/spam feel worth it.

Some people talk about Anet’s decisions based on their buisiness/monetary issues. That’s a whole different fish and I’m horrible with economics so I won’t comment on that. I’m just just concerned with Anet making an enjoyable game.

Maybe some of the players complaining about grind wouldn’t mind so much if they had good, polished lore to divert them from the actual repetitiveness they are going through. But that’s just me.

*Edit: And yes, maddoctor gives the best explanation of this.

Mirta.5029:

I don’t see anything wrong with rewards.
By the way every genre and every game does it. You do something in order to get something. You dig trough dirt in Minecraft in order to find coal, diamonds, any material that you need, you get your sim a job in The Sims in order to get that piece of furniture that you want, you want to play shooters longer because of all the special weapons and tags that you can unlock. Every game has always had some sort of reward system. You don’t bash bricks in Mario just because, you bash them because coins fall out.
Though I don’t like being compared to a dog.

Having/obtaining rewards in themselves is not the bad thing. What’s bad is when a whole game model revolves around it, at the expense of fun.

Meili Ying.3820:

Having/obtaining rewards in themselves is not the bad thing. What’s bad is when a whole game model revolves around it, at the expense of fun.

The thing is whether the game revolves around it or not, isn’t that in the eyes of the beholder?
Like for example, Tequatl is a new living story with yet another backpack as a meta reward. I have 9 characters and even then I already have all their backpacks. I don’t need another backpack. Yet I did the living story.

When you run a dungeon and the run is unsuccessful, but you ran with a guild and you all had a lot of fun, is that 1G for 4 hours really that rewarding?

Mirta.5029:

Meili Ying.3820:

Having/obtaining rewards in themselves is not the bad thing. What’s bad is when a whole game model revolves around it, at the expense of fun.

The thing is whether the game revolves around it or not, isn’t that in the eyes of the beholder?
Like for example, Tequatl is a new living story with yet another backpack as a meta reward. I have 9 characters and even then I already have all their backpacks. I don’t need another backpack. Yet I did the living story.

When you run a dungeon and the run is unsuccessful, but you ran with a guild and you all had a lot of fun, is that 1G for 4 hours really that rewarding?

Sure, there are some people doing stuff for fun. However, where is the majority of the player-base? Right now, a lot of them are sitting in Sparkfly overflows. Players aren’t playing Teq to farm, they are doing it because it’s new. This will not continue.

Neither Teq, nor 4 hour dungeon runs are farm content. The farmers are running around FGS, maybe Queensdale, maybe CS doing Champ zergs. The dungeon farmers are doing speed runs, one per path per day, only the paths that can be done quickly enough.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sure, there are some people doing stuff for fun. However, where is the majority of the player-base? Right now, a lot of them are sitting in Sparkfly overflows. Players aren’t playing Teq to farm, they are doing it because it’s new. This will not continue.

Neither Teq, nor 4 hour dungeon runs are farm content. The farmers are running around FGS, maybe Queensdale, maybe CS doing Champ zergs. The dungeon farmers are doing speed runs, one per path per day, only the paths that can be done quickly enough.

And I don’t get the complaint here. Should we just remove all of the easier type of content from the game? Make it give nothing? I too like the Qeensdale farm train and the CoF P1. Right now it’s balanced pretty much nicely as well. Queensdale farm train doesn’t give as much as for example running dungeons does, but the full dungeon reward is capped at 1 a day per path as well. Should we just have a game of content like Tequatl? What should people that don’t have the time to stand around do then? The game is not centered around loot. It is balanced. There are faster ways to get money, sure, but there will always be some. Players that need cash will always find a way.

“Just curious, and I brought this up a little earlier in the thread, but who do you think is more to blame for this sense of entitlement?”

GW2 has easy access to content for players, which is generally a good thing. Very little is gated behind keying or questing or any other restrictions. However there is no character advancement for the same reasons meaning that players spend their time advancing their loot. That’s a design issue.

MMO players have developed a culture where they maximize rewards for time spent. It does tie into a culture where players endure the game rather than enjoy it, just for virtual rewards that only have value amongst peers. They would rather endure less for more gains. This is a player issue. However if the best rewards come with the best content the player attitudes become irrelevant.

cesmode.4257:

Ive sort of come to the conclusion that, like Blizzard, Arenanet is conditioning us.
Warning: a bit of a wall.
TLDR; We are conditioned by Arenanet to play only for rewards, and not for the sake of playing. This is because they pump the game full of rewards, checklists, achievements, minis, and shinies. They use this word “reward” often in order to trigger this type of behavior.

Blizzard brainwashed a generation of MMO players into thinking a themepark MMO with endless gear grind, and a paid subscription is the way to go for the MMO industry. Many MMOs tried to follow their footsteps and failed. Miserably. So we come to, what we thought/think, is a unique game in GW2 and people wanted the same thing. They wanted verticle progression. Arenanet gave it to them. They wanted more. They wanted more rewards. Rewards, rewards rewards. We cannot have a patch without being enticed by rewards. You cannot read an article about GW2 these days without the use of the word ‘rewards’. Everything is centered around rewards. If you aren’t being rewarded, why bother? We can attribute a lot of this mentality to WoW, in a sense, because in WoW…we wanted verticle progression, gear grind, and rewards.

Arenanet takes rewards to a whole new level. And this is bad. They reward you for a lot of things. They reward you and shower you in currency. The more rewards you get, the more you want to play, right?

This whole idea that a game must be centered around “rewards” is creating a Pavlonian society where you guys (the playerbase) salivate whenever arenanet uses the word “reward”. If the article doesn’t have that word in it, suddenly it loses meaning. Have we all become the dog in Pavlov’s experiment?

A few months ago I created a thread about instrinsic vs extrinsic rewards. Playing for fun vs playing for reward. A lot of good points in both camps were made. People agreed with me that we no longer play for fun, but for reward. People also said that rewards ARE fun to them. Thats OK. But don’t you think those people are falling into the Pavlonian way of thinking?

For those of you that don’t know who Pavlov is:

Pavlov performed an experiment where a dog encounters food, they begin to salivate. He began to associate this with a bell sound. Eventually whenever he struck the bell, the dog began to salivate even if no food was present.

So..what is my point here? Arenanet has associated every patch and all content with some sort of reward system, and they use the term frequently. So frequently, that whenever they use the word ‘reward’, we as players begin to salivate and want more..and more..and more rewards. Its becoming a vicious cycle.

I believe most of you(myself included) have lost the purpose of a video game…to play for fun. I believe Arenanet definately has lost sight of this. Otherwise they would create content just to have fun. Not to check off achievements, and be rewarded. We would simply be enjoying their content, rather than rushing to complete achievements, or get the next ascended slot.

Its a vicious cycle started by Blizzard, and perpetuated by Arenanet. Blizzard conditioned us in WoW. Arenanet is doing it again with GW2.

Don’t believe me? Try going to another game after you have had your complete fill of GW2 and try not to expect the game to reward you for everything. I bet for a lot of us, it will be difficult.

If anyone responds to this, try to respond by not going to the opposite extreme in the case. Yes, rewards are part of game. I understand that. Yes, we all want some form of progression. I understand that. This isnt the age old verticle vs horizontal progression argument. This is just laying out how we are being conditioned by this company to expect rewards, because without a reward we do not have fun.

Games need rewards at some level, but not to the extent to which arenanet has gone to. They have removed a lot of the fun of the game and replaced it with something “virtually tangible”…if those words could ever go together.

Welcome to the MMO genre?

they are not mutually exclusive. you can play for fun and ignore the reward stuff for the most part, if that’s your gig. Others can hunt specific rewards if that is – for them – fun.

I think that the OP is both correct and incorrect.

His point about people wanting rewards for everything they do seems to have a good deal of validity to me but the blame seems misplaced. This phenomenon is not unique to post WoW MMOs nor to MMOs in general. It does not even find its origin in MMOs. This is present throughout modern society and has been evolving since before Warcraft let alone the MMO bearing that game’s name.