Guild Wars 2

I see a few comments like, “This is a themepark not a sandbox, so there needs to be progression.” or “This is an MMO, so there needs to be rewards.” or “People play MMOs for loot.”

I liked GW1 and now GW2 precisely because it slays those sorts of sacred cows. (Actually, in my mind, they don’t slay enough! But at least they’re trying.)

Anyways, a lot of the problems seem to stem from mentality gained from themepark MMOs.

Maybe ANet needs to make sandbox the endgame to shut those people up.

“Rewards as incentive is a community issue, not developer”

lol bottom line is… the customer pretty much chooses what developers develop. Thats how they stay in business. Thats how any company stays in business.

I don’t care what MMO it is… if the customer base as a whole is having valid complaints then they need to take that into serious consideration which it doesnt look like they are OR they are just taking their sweet time doing it… which is very dangerous with the short attention span of todays MMO gamer.

May I ask who this customer base as a whole is? I personally don’t care about item progression and grinding for numbers and I also bought this game. But it seems like for you I’m not part of their “customer base”.

I’m kind of getting tired of this argument, which has been stated in what must be over a hundred different threads by now. Also anyone saying that the only people who want rewards are those that treat the game like a job are morons.

Wake up and smell the coffee. People like to get rewards.
Why would I farm the same dungeons over and over if not for rewards? World of Warcraft didn’t exactly create this concept, and GW2 isn’t awesome and revolutionary because its reward system, frankly, sucks. I hate people that use this argument. “lolz you complain bout wow clones then when something is different you still complain, herpkitten” No, people are complaining for legitimate reasons. Yes, some people are making idiot arguments and need to be ignored, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending their aren’t problems isn’t doing anyone any favours.

People do dungeons to get awesome loot.

They wouldn’t repeat the same story over and over otherwise. It’d take a rare sort to actually enjoy hearing the same dialogue over and over in, say, Twilight Arbor, without caring about the rewards for completing the dungeons. After story mode why do people go and do explorables? It’s certainly not because they think Ascalon Catacombs is pretty, folks. It’s because they want rewards. This isn’t a difficult concept and wanting rewards for putting in the effort required to complete a dungeon – which in GW2 can mean a lot of effort – doesn’t make you an entitled brat.

@Ferohr You may be sick of it but it will forever be present. There are too many millions of people to convince to see things your way, champ.

If people came expecting WoW then they did not research the game. I did very little before I bought the game. Aside from Forum Strictness, I am amazed. The game is grindy as heck. Disguised as other things like renown hearts and achievements but even say Borderlands 2. That game is grindy. Doesn’t matter how much so but it does matter if you feel it.

The game has problems. We all accept that. Every game has problems and 2012 being an excuse to see the perfect game launch shows ignorance. Game code is game code and lord knows it breaks whenever it so feels like it.

But the grind in this game is downplayed by downleveling and feeling like every zone is a challenge. This is, to me, what an mmo should be. It is fun, it rewards me for playing as I want to. Though not obsessively running one thing or another (IE: events and chain grinding mobs).

Like I said. Aside from being too seriously strict on the forums they have done well for themselves. And I say that pleadingly to the mod that reads this. Please please please don’t ban me. I DO love your game.

Free people usually do thing because they want to, not because they will recieve a cookie if they do it.

robot.9134:

Porky.5021:

So I don’t understand why you bought GW2.

Were you under the impression that there was a long gear grind available that would differentiate you from the people who have less time than you by means of bigger stats?

A simple check of the GW2 site, the articles, the dev blogs, and the videos would have told you this wasn’t the game for you.

I’m not trying to be mean, but I don’t understand some of you.

The game’s design concept was clear: No lengthy grind for items with stats. If you wanted to look different from everyone there would be a grind available for you, but the top level items stat-wise would be available to all without a lengthy grind.

This was not a secret, nor was it ambiguous.

I bought the game with the mindset I have had with every other failed MMO that i have played in the past 4-5 years. “meh….$60 is well spent compared to console if it lasts me 2-3 months”

Expect the worst and hope for the best.

I was a bit curious about how it would turn out also. I am not disappointed about the core game although rewards could be MUCH better. I am disappointed with how the customer service and dev reaction times turned out.

Communication has dropped significantly. Patches are spaced out further and they are more quick to nerf than buff where needed even in desperate areas. Priorities don’t seem to be straight. Slow reaction to key issues leads to boredom in the player base and that kills mmo’s. If you are going to be slow at fixing the issues then you better be sure that the player base has something to keep them busy and at the moment…Orr is a disgrace.

You haven’t really answered his question (just pointing it out :p)

So to reiterate that poster’s question, why did you buy Guild Wars 2?

Any cursory check of blogs, notes, reviews or developer feedback would tell you this isn’t a game someone in your mindset would want to be involved in.

Also if you go into a game with that mindset you’ve described, well yes, nothing will ever be good enough because you expect to leave it in 2-3 months, which by the way is exactly what GW2 is about, it isn’t logging on every day because you “have to”, it’s doing what you want, play what you want and come back on the same level as everyone else.

There is no such thing as a “community issue”. As a developer, it is your job to satisfy your customers. If your customers aren’t satisfied, you can cry all you want and tell them, “But you’re doing it wrong!” It won’t change the reality that you’ve failed to satisfy your customers.

I can’t stand when people say, “The game is perfect! The players are all wrong!” That’s just an ignorant and naive statement.

While you want to satisfy your customers, what you should not do is cave to them. “We want hardcore raids! We want mounts! We want a gear treadmill!” You instead design a solution that will satisfy what it is they enjoy about these things they think they want, without necessarily giving them explicitly what they say they want.

What someone says they want and what they actually want are often two very different things. A person might say, “I enjoy a gear grind.” What they actually enjoy is the sense of progression found in gear grinds that a simple leveling system doesn’t quite offer. It is quite possible to create this exact sense of progression without actually adding a gear grind.

EDIT: I intentionally chose to omit my opinion on whether or not ANet has succeeded or failed in this area.

Shroom Mage.9410:

There is no such thing as a “community issue”. As a developer, it is your job to satisfy your customers. If your customers aren’t satisfied, you can cry all you want and tell them, “But you’re doing it wrong!” It won’t change the reality that you’ve failed to satisfy your customers.

Regina stated the majority are not content burners or carrot chasers and are happy with how the game is.
Their target customers -are- happy.

It’s just the non-target customers who still bought GW2 despite Anet writing in cubital letters that this game is not for them that are unhappy.
Microsoft isn’t going to make their PC become a Mac clone simply because some people like Mac features more; those people are not Microsoft’s target audience.

And no one is saying the game is perfect, but to this target audience the game is a masterpiece and only needs bugfixing/balancing currently, not radical changes.

Why would I eat ice cream a hundred times if it doesn’t give me a reward?
Why would I go play hockey a hundred times with my friends if it doesn’t give me a reward?
Because I enjoy it.

Why would I buy an iPhone and then complain to Apple that their tablet sucks because it’s not like android? If I wanted android I should have bought android.

Why would I go to the movie theater and complain that I wanted to see theater (live acting), not a movie?

How I see it;

I payed 60€ for a game. And there is much more content available then 60€ would get me in other games. So its a good deal.

I can play on-and-off and never really fall behind others statwise, either in pve OR pvp. This im really happy about since its refreshing to take breaks and come back and still feel you’ve lost nothing. I did this multiple times playing Guild Wars 1. Id play for a few months/weeks then go devote time to other things and then come back and continue where I left off. While playing game-that-must-not-be-mentioned I also took breaks for other things in life and when I came back I was always behind the majority and this lead me to grind gear just to be on level with others. The lack importance of stats is awsome in Guild Wars 2, this way I dont HAVE to grind for gear just to be on level with others.

And having played Guild Wars 1, I find even the cosmetic grind is not overwhelming or tedious….

I lost my train of thought… well anyway just my 2 cents :P

EDIT: so if you dont enjoy this game by all means go to a game you do enjoy. Anet has an amazing philosophy in game development that I really enjoy. I mean they even froze the sales of gw2 until they could get the servers stable for the players already in the game. That action really speaks for itself.

If a game needs progression in order to be fun the game isn’t fun in the first place.

I think we got two sets of gamers, the secure gamer (Casual) and the insecure gamer (Gear hunting/Achivement nut/World first/Etc).

The casual gamer is a strong gamer, he plays the game the way it is ment. No grind for him/her since they do 1 dungeon each day or maybe even 2, mostly for the fun of it. To enjoy guildies/Family/friends and the “reward” in game is just a +.

The insecure gamer needs some form of reckognition for doing what they do, but in the end nobody cares what you do or what you wear in games, nobody. I know it must feel bad when you have grinded and played for 200-400-600 hours just to show people something, and to know that people really don’t care about it.

I think some people need some form of accomplishment from gaming, but what to do when they find out that nobody cares about what they do? I would love to get a psychologist on this.

It’s grindy inly if you make it so. It’s not suppose to take a day.
It’s suppose to be fun, progression comes in last before fun.

If you play a game for progression you need to find a new genre, or quit gaming completely, because the progression in games is nothing, and nobody cares about it. So why bother?

Cik.6479:

Kouken.8604:

. . .
Personally allowing easy(ish) access to full exotics to most players is a perfect system. . .

Hmmm…I grew-up with the learning that a socialist system is far less than a perfect system.

But that’s me.

I live in sweden, it works wonder over here. We got rich people, we got middle class people, and i have no idea but the poor people here still has money to own a really nice apartment, a car, and food, etc etc.

Unless those poor people use drugs etc.

The complete opposite of our economy is USA, and look what’s happening there. And then look at Canada (It’s close to our economy).

Just because someone is rich, doesn’t mean they should have 100 houses, 1000 cars, etc etc. That’s insain.

Shroom Mage.9410:

There is no such thing as a “community issue”. As a developer, it is your job to satisfy your customers. If your customers aren’t satisfied, you can cry all you want and tell them, “But you’re doing it wrong!” It won’t change the reality that you’ve failed to satisfy your customers.

I can’t stand when people say, “The game is perfect! The players are all wrong!” That’s just an ignorant and naive statement.

While you want to satisfy your customers, what you should not do is cave to them. “We want hardcore raids! We want mounts! We want a gear treadmill!” You instead design a solution that will satisfy what it is they enjoy about these things they think they want, without necessarily giving them explicitly what they say they want.

What someone says they want and what they actually want are often two very different things. A person might say, “I enjoy a gear grind.” What they actually enjoy is the sense of progression found in gear grinds that a simple leveling system doesn’t quite offer. It is quite possible to create this exact sense of progression without actually adding a gear grind.

EDIT: I intentionally chose to omit my opinion on whether or not ANet has succeeded or failed in this area.

Why linger on? I mean if people really don’t like it, why linger on?
If i didn’t like it, i would move on.

If people that need to grind for pixels, and need to sit 24/7 in a game in order for it to be fun, they should leave. Because nobody cares what you do in games, it’s not about progression it’s about fun first and foremost.

People can make anything a grind. It just matters how you play.
And if people would just understand that nobody cares what you do, or what you wear in game, they maybe would stop playing games like they do. In the end when they have played for hundreds of hours and got what they wanted, they find out that nobody cares, it must be painful xD

I personally would like to see them implement more titles. Yes, they are a grind to get but that’s what a lot of GW1 players worked for. Especially the titles that had skills attached to them (for example the Lightbringer titles). The higher your title, the stronger the skill.

Tirien.1326:

it’s not about progression it’s about fun

erm, progression IS what i find fun in an MMO, however…

so, if anet wants money from players like me, they will include progression in the forms we enjoy it…

if anet doesnt want any money from players like me, they will not include progression in the forms we enjoy it…

its really that simple…

its up to anet – do they want our money or do they not?

Well if you want to make it that simple the other side is that including a gear-progession will make them loose people like me.

So it finally comes down to the simple question do they want my money or yours.^^

Edit: And to add something productive to this discussion – I think it’s a mentality thing. Some people just like to compare things (e.g. stats on items) while others enjoy the thing itself. A skin I find is something which is important for ME. A stat I find is only worth something compared to others or to the content.

I don’t think there is something wrong with each of these fews but most games just favour the comparing side. GW2 is different and thats why I like it.

Pirlipat.2479:

Well if you want to make it that simple the other side is that including a gear-progession will make them loose people like me.

So it finally comes down to the simple question do they want my money or yours.^^

oh i can answer that already – they want the majority’s money

the REAL question is – who’s side has the majority? =P

I would guess that Anet will continue to make the game that they want. They seem to want a game that includes no grind for gear with stats. They don’t need a majority of the market or a majority of the population to make that work…they need enough people to like it so they can remain profitable.

Would they like it to be a blockbuster smash that changes the way games are made? I’m sure they would, but it is not required for a game to be successful.

There are plenty of games out there that satisfy the needs of people who absolutely must spend weeks grinding that Ultra Sharp Sword +100 so they can show it off to the poor saps who only have Sharp Swords +50.

The market doesn’t need another one, and can very much use a game like GW2.

Porky.5021:

I would guess that Anet will continue to make the game that they want.

only if it makes them the most money – sorry, but in real life, companies exist to make money, not to turn away money….

robot.9134:

Porky.5021:

robot.9134:

People are getting bored quicker now. It doesnt work.

Collecting new loot is fun as hell. The majority of any MMO customer base will agree with that.

Maybe for some of you.

I was just in WvW. Tons of people having fun. No one crying about their lack of loot or how bad the game is because they can’t outstat the other side.

Just people running around slaughtering each other and having fun doing it.

Give it another few months… it will only last so long before people get bored with the same maps and limited results. “Reward” need to equal or be better than “effort” and as time goes on… like someone already said…fun has diminishing returns.

Dont get me wrong though… im not saying wvw isnt fun. I’m just saying that they are fighting an uphill battle removing that entire loot aspect from an mmo. Horizontal progression was a horrible idea for a player base that has proven historically that vertical is what keeps long term attention. People LOVE to brag and compete for new gear, progression, skill, and even for smaller things like max dmg/healing etc. GW2 Doesnt leave a whole lot left compared to other MMO’s.

Not only that but the track records for new mmos the past 4-5 years isnt exactly stellar. They tried way too hard to reinvent the wheel.

Thousands of players RvR’d on DAoC for years without ANY reward at all, other than the sheer satisfaction of seeing their realm beating their enemies. It was when they introduced rewards that affected the pvp gameplay that everything started to fall.

See, that was the mentality before World of Warcraft. It worked perfectly fine. Now it doesn’t anymore for a lot of people, because WoW (and to a lesser extent, EQ1) introduced this heavily reward-centered mentality we have today.

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

It will take some time, people who want GW2 to change to better suit to their playstyles will eventually leave to other games and we will have this game being a heaven for those who actually like it the way it is supposed to be. And I strongly believe that, with time, even those who dislike this gameplay style will give it another chance and maybe even discover it to be an enjoyable experience.

Some people above have been making a ludicrously inappropriate analogy between everyone having the same gear level and socialism.

I despise socialism too, and the “everyone wins” mentality.

But is Chess a socialist game because both sides are perfectly balanced?

Think about it.

Rpgtabbycat.5869:

I personally would like to see them implement more titles. Yes, they are a grind to get but that’s what a lot of GW1 players worked for. Especially the titles that had skills attached to them (for example the Lightbringer titles). The higher your title, the stronger the skill.

No. no no no, oh dear gods no.

Titles, fine – for those that want them. But do NOT link them to skills anymore. It was ridiculous that you could only join a party if you had skill A on level B. It does not promote teamplay and it should never have been implemented.

The thing is, this isn’t a competition between the progression-heads and the the rest. ArenaNet can satisfy both without short-changing one or the other.

The problem is not about the gear stat plateau. As a progression-head myself, I don’t need better gear as an incentive, just a reward that sets me apart for achieving difficult things. In that respect, the gear skins are fine.

The problem is that the PvE end game is not difficult enough and has no progressive element. WoW added a progressive element by using gear inflation to gate entry to raids of increasing “difficulty”. An important point people are missing here is that raiders don’t raid for gear, they raid because the raids are incredibly challenging and interesting, and incredibly satisfying to defeat. The rewards of gear are merely a cherry on top, and more importantly, a badge to wear so people can see that you have beaten the raids. The fact that Blizzard tied in the stats on the gear as a gate mechanism for further raids is actually quite a trivial point.

ArenaNet need to gate progression in a more well defined way. Rather than having 4 or 5 dungeons with random sets, they should have 5 dungeons of increasing difficulty that gate each other. That way, skilled players can distinguish themselves by the particular skins they have earned.

Besides everything, the most important thing that ArenaNet have got wrong with PvE end game is that explorables are nowhere near hard enough or interesting enough in comparison to raids, so rather than rewarding people for the skill of defeating rock-hard encounters, they’re rewarding people for repeatedly clearing easy ones. So instead of people feeling proud of their accomplishments and earning rewards for them, they’re mindlessly grinding and feeling no pride after boring themselves to death to get gear skins which symbolise nothing.

What a lot of developers are also missing is that it’s not all about everyone being the guy with all the stuff. The fact that only a few may earn the most prestigious rewards is exactly what makes an MMO interesting in that respect. When I first leveled to 60 in vanilla WoW, I was a casual nub, and seeing the only guy on the server with Quel-Serrar was fascinating to me, and something I thoroughly enjoyed, even though I didn’t have it myself. It symbolised something to strive for.

deriver.5381:

Thousands of players RvR’d on DAoC for years without ANY reward at all, other than the sheer satisfaction of seeing their realm beating their enemies. It was when they introduced rewards that affected the pvp gameplay that everything started to fall.

Wrong. DAoC offered Realm Points, Realm Ranks, Realm abilities as motivation for RvR. Nothing more fun than striving for the next RR. Players enjoyed this type of gameplay for many years. So don’t act like there wasn’t a reward because there was, and it was huge.

Porky.5021:

I would guess that Anet will continue to make the game that they want. They seem to want a game that includes no grind for gear with stats. They don’t need a majority of the market or a majority of the population to make that work…they need enough people to like it so they can remain profitable.

As far as I can tell, GW1/2 were both made to accomplish a specific goal, to give an alternative to the “level to max/raid for gear/raid for more gear” style of MMOs. Because they make their money primarily from box sales and not from monthly fees, it is not in their best interest to keep “progression” fans happy at the expense of others because the game was not designed for a constant churn of players reaching for the next tier of raids/gear.

The game is designed to be enjoyed at a more casual pace, with the option of PvP at a more or less even level of competition, at least in the sense that you can create a new toon and enter PvP with roughly the same stats and skills as any other player. Equipment and consumables can buff the stats of course, but not as much as PvP in, for example, Rift where a Rank 1 player gets ripped apart effortlessly by a Rank 50 player no matter how good he is because a Rank 1 simply can’t do enough damage to stop a Rank 50.

If you bought the box, they already made their money from you. Of course they hope to keep enough people interested to keep the game going, but the target market is not progression-oriented players but casual drop in/drop out players who will come back to the game whenever they feel like playing it and do not feel any pressure to keep up with the next guy.

For those of you who think Anet isn’t interested in gobbling up as much of the MMO market as possible, you are very wrong. GW2 is a different animal than GW1. GW2 was marketed as an MMO. GW1 was not an MMO. Part of the business model and revenue forecasts for the game involve ONGOING purchases from the cash shop. These purchases are what fund your content updates, and eventually your expansion. If you want a dead in the water game, fine. Continue to push away players who are trying to let Anet know what will keep them playing. But in the long run, its going to hurt most of all the people who love this game and think “its fine” just as it is now. Because eventually, you are going to get bored. And the more money Anet makes from ongoing revenue streams, the more resources they have to pour into keeping you around long-term.

There is no reason the game can’t cater to two different types of players. They just need to add in some additional incentives for end game content. It doesn’t have to be gear progression. It can be other things that players care about. Titles, mounts, pets, whatever. They just need to be creative and think up incentives that don’t contradict their basic premises about requiring players to grind content to compete. I’m sure they can do it. They clearly have a talented crew working for them.

FarFarAway.6579:

deriver.5381:

Thousands of players RvR’d on DAoC for years without ANY reward at all, other than the sheer satisfaction of seeing their realm beating their enemies. It was when they introduced rewards that affected the pvp gameplay that everything started to fall.

Wrong. DAoC offered Realm Points, Realm Ranks, Realm abilities as motivation for RvR. Nothing more fun than striving for the next RR. Players enjoyed this type of gameplay for many years. So don’t act like there wasn’t a reward because there was, and it was huge.

When the game launched, RRs were only for titles shown to enemies. There were no realm skills… They were introduced almost a year after launch.

deriver.5381:

When the game launched, RRs were only for titles shown to enemies. There were no realm skills… They were introduced almost a year after launch.

Yeah, so one year out of the many years that players populated the lands of Camelot, there were no RRs. My point still stands.

FarFarAway.6579:

deriver.5381:

When the game launched, RRs were only for titles shown to enemies. There were no realm skills… They were introduced almost a year after launch.

Yeah, so one year out of the many years that players populated the lands of Camelot, there were no RRs. My point still stands.

As so mine. Because today people can’t stand a month without a constant flow of rewards.

Tirien.1326:

If a game needs progression in order to be fun the game isn’t fun in the first place.

I think we got two sets of gamers, the secure gamer (Casual) and the insecure gamer (Gear hunting/Achivement nut/World first/Etc).

The casual gamer is a strong gamer, he plays the game the way it is ment. No grind for him/her since they do 1 dungeon each day or maybe even 2, mostly for the fun of it. To enjoy guildies/Family/friends and the “reward” in game is just a +.

The insecure gamer needs some form of reckognition for doing what they do, but in the end nobody cares what you do or what you wear in games, nobody. I know it must feel bad when you have grinded and played for 200-400-600 hours just to show people something, and to know that people really don’t care about it.

I think some people need some form of accomplishment from gaming, but what to do when they find out that nobody cares about what they do? I would love to get a psychologist on this.

It’s grindy inly if you make it so. It’s not suppose to take a day.
It’s suppose to be fun, progression comes in last before fun.

If you play a game for progression you need to find a new genre, or quit gaming completely, because the progression in games is nothing, and nobody cares about it. So why bother?

Is this some form of sarcasm or just an outright joke? I really hoping, by now, we were past telling people how to play a game.

deriver.5381:

As so mine. Because today people can’t stand a month without a constant flow of rewards.

The size of the MMO market has grown drastically since the DAoC days, and players have many options as to which flavor of MMO they choose, so yes. They are more demanding because the market allows them to be.

I remember well when some individuals with a lot of time started to climb the ranks way ahead of others and completely dominated the small skirmishes over the frontier maps. Also, when they introduced the realm ranks, there were many ways to exploit the system and parties start to trade kills for huge RR exp over a small amount of time. Those high ranked parties completely decimated every other group trying to fight them. That is what happens when rewards play a bigger role than they are supposed to.

I really hope they don’t introduce any artificial gap like that here. The only gap we should have here is player skill.

Now, I’m all up for RvR/PvP titles.

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

Actually the market do not allow them to be. They just feel that way.

MMO gamers have grown so demanding that the only thing left for them is to jump between new releases, drying out their content in 2 weeks, demanding new things to do for another 2, and then leaving for the next game. No game can provide everything this kind of players want, on the timeframe they want.

It’s easy to see that. Just follow the forums of any new release and you will see the same people you saw a couple months ago, on another game. They play for 1, maybe 2 months, get tired, complain, complain, leave and do exactly the same on some other game.

Even better, start watching some youtube channels and you will see what I’m talking about.

So, in the end, what would be better for a company running a game? Try to catter the ever demanding comunity with a very big chance of failing miserably because their demands are bigger and bigger every passing year, or try to catter your faithful customers, those you know already like your product and will do their best to support it?

GW1 was a very successful niche game. Still up and running. Why can’t GW2 be successful with the same mindset?

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

FarFarAway.6579:

There is no reason the game can’t cater to two different types of players. They just need to add in some additional incentives for end game content. It doesn’t have to be gear progression. It can be other things that players care about. Titles, mounts, pets, whatever. They just need to be creative and think up incentives that don’t contradict their basic premises about requiring players to grind content to compete. I’m sure they can do it. They clearly have a talented crew working for them.

This is fine. I don’t have a problem with titles, cosmetics, pets, mounts, etc. I guess most people don’t, although you never know.

The problem is some people are saying they want better gear. They need to grind for gear or it’s no fun. If they can’t put more time in the game and get better equipment as a reward, they aren’t having fun.

That’s all I’m against in this game. I don’t want time to become the one big factor in who gets the best gear and therefore has the best chance to win.

robot.9134:

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

How exactly UO was reward-centric? I didn’t follow you on this one. Maybe you are talking about the UO as it is now, after so many patches? I know they changed a lot, but I’m talking about what UO was back in 97, 98, when loot meant nothing. The best weapon in the game could only give you +6 to dmg and you could lose it anytime, anywhere.

People walked the streets in rags, with minimal gear and reagents… Not sure what you mean by UO being reward-centric.

Also, about offline RPG games, I do play them for the fun of playing, else I would never be any fan of any AD&D game series other than NWN (which is very reward-centric).

WHY IS QUOTING ALWAYS BROKEN?

@Jiverooster:

Bad comparison, PVP tends to remain fun longer because it’s not really repetition, it’s not scripted, people adopt different strategies.

Comparing PVE content to competitive play in First Person Shooters or RTS is just not a good comparison.

Do you know people who play single player starcraft campaigns over and over? Probably not. That’s a better comparison.

Eventually repetition kills the enjoyment and they stop.

Every MMO from 2005-2015:

New MMO Announcment: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! This is going to be the best MMO EVER!”

First Beta: “(MMO) is so awesome! It’s so much better than anything I’ve played in years!”

Last Beta: Mix of “(MMO) is so awesome! I can’t wait for the public release!” and “I thought (MMO) would be good but the graphics/abilities/quests don’t live up to the hype.” Fanboy/troll arguments begin.

One week after release: “(MMO) could have been great, but they didn’t fix the problems it had in beta and now X, Y, and Z are broken. The game is full of bots and noobs, I got to end level and now I’m bored…” Declarations of utter failure begin.

One month after release: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! That is going to be the best MMO EVER!” Quitter threads outnumber praise threads.

Porky.5021:

FarFarAway.6579:

There is no reason the game can’t cater to two different types of players. They just need to add in some additional incentives for end game content. It doesn’t have to be gear progression. It can be other things that players care about. Titles, mounts, pets, whatever. They just need to be creative and think up incentives that don’t contradict their basic premises about requiring players to grind content to compete. I’m sure they can do it. They clearly have a talented crew working for them.

This is fine. I don’t have a problem with titles, cosmetics, pets, mounts, etc. I guess most people don’t, although you never know.

The problem is some people are saying they want better gear. They need to grind for gear or it’s no fun. If they can’t put more time in the game and get better equipment as a reward, they aren’t having fun.

That’s all I’m against in this game. I don’t want time to become the one big factor in who gets the best gear and therefore has the best chance to win.

people aren’t saying that it “wont be fun with out gear”. The flaw that people are pointing is the same one that a lot of people called them out on before release.

What happens at level cap when everyone is 80 with max gear? People WILL get bored…and already are. Repetitive pvp maps and WvW is not going to keep customers logging in daily.

Some people don’t play daily… No1 is saying you have to…. but if you want to have the real fun…one of the bigger selling points of the game is competition in wvw…. and your server isnt going to do well with a server of casual weekend warriors. Thats a fact.

Also….the grind is here already…and its bad

robot.9134:

Also….the grind is here already…and its bad

Yeah… it’s my favorite game right now, but this is definitely true. I’ve just racked up soooooo many useless achievement points (almost 3k) that I feel too invested to stop now lol.

tolunart.2095:

Every MMO from 2005-2015:

New MMO Announcment: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! This is going to be the best MMO EVER!”

First Beta: “(MMO) is so awesome! It’s so much better than anything I’ve played in years!”

Last Beta: Mix of “(MMO) is so awesome! I can’t wait for the public release!” and “I thought (MMO) would be good but the graphics/abilities/quests don’t live up to the hype.” Fanboy/troll arguments begin.

One week after release: “(MMO) could have been great, but they didn’t fix the problems it had in beta and now X, Y, and Z are broken. The game is full of bots and noobs, I got to end level and now I’m bored…” Declarations of utter failure begin.

One month after release: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! That is going to be the best MMO EVER!” Quitter threads outnumber praise threads.

That made me laugh… Exactly my point on my last post.

Cik.6479:

Kouken.8604:

. . .
Personally allowing easy(ish) access to full exotics to most players is a perfect system. . .

Hmmm…I grew-up with the learning that a socialist system is far less than a perfect system.

But that’s me.

Two posts into this thread and somebody’s already dragging out the Libertarian’s Boggyman.

The modern /Godwin…

Seriously… is EVERYTHING so black and white in your universe?

Try a discussion without a godwin-like-phrase phrase…

robot.9134:

people aren’t saying that it “wont be fun with out gear”.

Actually…you said that:

most people play mmo’s for loot… not for character skins. Skills make PvP fun…but so does the gear you collect which also improves your character. They took out a large chunk of the equation. People are getting bored quicker now. It doesnt work.

Collecting new loot is fun as hell. The majority of any MMO customer base will agree with that.

deriver.5381:

robot.9134:

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

How exactly UO was reward-centric? I didn’t follow you on this one. Maybe you are talking about the UO as it is now, after so many patches? I know they changed a lot, but I’m talking about what UO was back in 97, 98, when loot meant nothing. The best weapon in the game could only give you +6 to dmg and you could lose it anytime, anywhere.

People walked the streets in rags, with minimal gear and reagents… Not sure what you mean by UO being reward-centric.

Also, about offline RPG games, I do play them for the fun of playing, else I would never be any fan of any AD&D game series other than NWN (which is very reward-centric).

I dont play private server but i played on the original servers. It didn’t have tier sets but it DEFINITELY had sought after gear and dungeons to farm. Not only that but it had very sought after pets that people would tame and sell. It wasnt as drastic but it was far from this “horizontal progression” thing when “everyone is equal”. Much more chr progression on the gear side. the gear did definitely have a diff in combat.

About rpgs…my point is that stories make a game good but what makes them great is the character development. If new loot wasnt coming and new skills werent available they would have not been nearly as successful.

robot.9134:

About rpgs…my point is that stories make a game good but what makes them great is the character development. If new loot wasnt coming and new skills werent available they would have not been nearly as successful.

The game’s been out for a month and people are already screaming for another installment.

Porky.5021:

robot.9134:

people aren’t saying that it “wont be fun with out gear”.

Actually…you said that:

most people play mmo’s for loot… not for character skins. Skills make PvP fun…but so does the gear you collect which also improves your character. They took out a large chunk of the equation. People are getting bored quicker now. It doesnt work.

Collecting new loot is fun as hell. The majority of any MMO customer base will agree with that.

No… I said that it is a factor and a part of the equation that makes it fun. YOU made the claim that people are arguing “no gear progression = no fun” and its a lie and out of context.

Obviously gear progression is necessary in MMO’s because GW2 did take it on…problem people are having is ….what now at 80? Its completely gone and replaced with a grind just to be normal. Thats no good.

For Faux Sake.8457:

robot.9134:

About rpgs…my point is that stories make a game good but what makes them great is the character development. If new loot wasnt coming and new skills werent available they would have not been nearly as successful.

The game’s been out for a month and people are already screaming for another installment.

LMAO….“people” huh? no “people” are screaming for Orr to be functional… for bugs to be fixed and classes to be balanced. If people are asking for more content it is because level cap content is bugged and boring.

robot.9134:

LMAO….“people” huh? no “people” are screaming for Orr to be functional… for bugs to be fixed and classes to be balanced. If people are asking for more content it is because level cap content is bugged and boring.

I don’t understand why you keep quoting “people.” Yeah they are really, truly, honest-to-god, flesh-and-bone, living-and-breathing, consuming-and-wasting, two-legged-ape-things that may or may not believe in one (or more) dieties: people.

robot.9134:

No… I said that it is a factor and a part of the equation that makes it fun. YOU made the claim that people are arguing “no gear progression = no fun” and its a lie and out of context..

Actually, I quite clearly said “some people”. If you’re going to argue context, please learn what context actually is and don’t pull things out of context to try to make a point.

Anyways, you’ve repeatedly stated that gear progression is a big part of your fun. Now you want to argue that it isn’t, while simultaneously telling us all how bored you are because you can’t get better gear anymore.

Have fun, I guess.

What I would really like to change is the waypoint fees. I wish they tie the costs to the level of the zone, so low level zones would have a lower base price. This way I could bring my higher level char to party with my low level friends, help them with their quests, hearts, just for the fun of it, without getting broke on the process.

If they ever do this, I’ll be able to have my fun doing the whole world content without having to worry about things that only high level zones can give me: level appropriate money to pay for my level appropriate expenses.