Rewards as incentive is a community issue, not developer
The problem with stat progression through gear treadmill is that they will have to make content scale with the gear and thus, blocking those without top gear from it. This is not what they want to happen here, and judging how it never ever happened on Guild Wars 1, I strongly doubt it will ever happen here.
I’m sure there are ways to give the sense of acomplishment to people without resorting to treadmills. If there aren’t, well, then I don’t think this game will ever catter to this kind of playstyle.
I would guess that Anet will continue to make the game that they want.
only if it makes them the most money – sorry, but in real life, companies exist to make money, not to turn away money….
Actually companies exist to make a profit, and some times to do that one does turn customers away if they are unable to provide the service the customer is looking for.
This is what is know as niche marketing. You don’t come out with something super revolutionary that will replace all competitors, but instead find a niche of the market that is not fully satisfied with the existing model and try to provide them what they want as an alternative, and this is the path ANet has decided to take. Would they be please if they revolutionize the market, absolutely, but that does not appear to be what they are trying to do.
I wish I could remember where it is but there was an interesting article about small businesses and how most don’t exist to innovate, but to simply find the niche and be profitable. Combine that with the article from I believe Gamespot about how MMO’s should stop chasing the dream of dethroning WoW and simple seek to be profitable and viola, you have ANet’s design and market strategy.
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Reward as an incentive is entirely developer created…. but don’t think of reward as purely something tangible, like gear. Reward is also enjoyment, whether that’s just hanging around lion’s arch chatting it up with the guildies and other folks, going further down the rabbit hole that is a dungeon, or clawing tooth n’ nail for every inch on that battlefield…. For some, the “reward of experiencing it” is enough, for others they want their efforts to be validated; and that’s a perfectly human response where toils and tribulations are undergone for some greater outcome. That validation traditionally comes in the form of gear. Maybe you could use guild influence and make that play a bigger role in the game…. but whatever that validation is, it’s up for the developer to figure it out.
The community simply either likes what’s being offered or doesn’t. The community, through good discourse, can help guide developers to understand the rewards we’d like to see, but ultimately it’s their job to create the experience.
Eh I find it funny actually that people that never played GW1 are shocked to see such a massive departure from what they’re used to when Anet’s been doin this for 7 years already.
Bragging rights which is what most people that wanna grind and can do so with the special armor skin farming that’s been goin on for 7+ years with the GW games. Not enough? Ok go stomp faces in pvp and show how much of a Sam Jackson Jedi you are, still not enough? Fine you got me there, go back to WoW, SWToR, EQ where gear not skill counts for your jawsomeness.
Eh I find it funny actually that people that never played GW1 are shocked to see such a massive departure from what they’re used to when Anet’s been doin this for 7 years already.
Bragging rights which is what most people that wanna grind and can do so with the special armor skin farming that’s been goin on for 7+ years with the GW games. Not enough? Ok go stomp faces in pvp and show how much of a Sam Jackson Jedi you are, still not enough? Fine you got me there, go back to WoW, SWToR, EQ where gear not skill counts for your jawsomeness.
Which is why gw1 was a niche game, and remained so. With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
Overlord Of [NAKY]
SOS Spy Team Commander [SPY]
SOS Spy Team Commander [SPY]
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
No hard data back up, take it with a grain of salt, but just looking around the forums, guild, general chat, friends list, etc will give you a pretty good idea.
The whole gear over skill or vice-versa can easily be kept within their respective realms given the balancing mechanics currently employed… You can have uber PvE gear and have it trivialized down to an exotic equivalency when that player steps foot in WvW; keeping the PvE skill in PvE realm and the PvP/WvW skill in those realms.
Not saying this means the gear treadmill needs to be implemented, but there’s infrastructure in place to have it both ways if will… The only limiting factor is the strict adherence to design philosophy; for better or worse is subjective.
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
No hard data back up, take it with a grain of salt, but just looking around the forums, guild, general chat, friends list, etc will give you a pretty good idea.
I see many more people ingame, playing and having fun as I see unhappy ones, posting on the forums.
These days, forums are used mostly as a venting tool for those who aren’t happy. You can’t really gather your numbers only based on posts here.
I’m completely happy with the game and the only reason I’m here, posting, is because I’m at work, with nothing to do. If I was home, I’d be playing, not posting.
Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
If this is a question for you, then you will never understand Guild Wars concept, ever. And, sadly, this game won’t ever be enough for you.
Rewards don’t necessarily have to be tangible in nature or purely gear-based…. but they need to be meaningful enough in order to entice players to pursue them. Some people need more enticing than others.
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
No hard data back up, take it with a grain of salt, but just looking around the forums, guild, general chat, friends list, etc will give you a pretty good idea.
I see many more people ingame, playing and having fun than I see unhappy people posting on the forums.
These days, forums are used mostly as a venting tool for those who aren’t happy. You can’t really gather your numbers only based on posts here.
I’m completely happy with the game and the only reason I’m here, posting, is because I’m at work, with nothing to do. If I was home, I’d be playing, not posting.
But remember, just as many people left the game/stopped playing without saying anything. Many of my friends that has already stopped playing never posted or even read the forums. We won’t ever have hard data on how many people is actually still playing because of the nature of no subs, and also the fact that companies rarely advertise the sub numbers unless they’re ridiculously good.
Don’t lie though, everyone knows at least a couple of people that came to play with them in this game, or met in the game, that has already stopped playing.
Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
People who are quit willing to state they refuse to do things that don’t reward them, then spend their time playing games are strange.
Shouldn’t you be working or getting an education? Something that rewards you?
Overlord Of [NAKY]
SOS Spy Team Commander [SPY]
SOS Spy Team Commander [SPY]
With gw2 they obviously tried to reach out to a broader audience and failed so far at keeping those.
How do you know they failed at keeping them? What data do you have access to that the rest of us do not?
No hard data back up, take it with a grain of salt, but just looking around the forums, guild, general chat, friends list, etc will give you a pretty good idea.
I see many more people ingame, playing and having fun than I see unhappy people posting on the forums.
These days, forums are used mostly as a venting tool for those who aren’t happy. You can’t really gather your numbers only based on posts here.
I’m completely happy with the game and the only reason I’m here, posting, is because I’m at work, with nothing to do. If I was home, I’d be playing, not posting.
But remember, just as many people left the game/stopped playing without saying anything. Many of my friends that has already stopped playing never posted or even read the forums. We won’t ever have hard data on how many people is actually still playing because of the nature of no subs, and also the fact that companies rarely advertise the sub numbers unless they’re ridiculously good.
Don’t lie though, everyone knows at least a couple of people that came to play with them in this game, or met in the game, that has already stopped playing.
Don’t take me as a liar, because I’m not, but I can say to you that none of my 130 members guild stopped playing so far. Not a single person.
There are those who are not 100% happy, but until now, noone saw enough reasons to stop playing and go back to whatever game they were playing before GW2.
Every single one of my RL friends who came here with me is completely addicted to the game, most of them with already one 80 with full exotics and a couple alts being played.
(edited by deriver.5381)
Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
People who are quit willing to state they refuse to do things that don’t reward them, then spend their time playing games are strange.
Shouldn’t you be working or getting an education? Something that rewards you?
Because a lot of people actually like the game but recognize that there are much needed changes? Lets stop being ridiculous… i think the motive is quite obvious and people complain because they would like some change.
I can already see the reply to this…
“This is GW2 not wow…If you want to play wow go play it…”
This isnt wow, this isnt swtor, this isnt aoc, aion, L1, l2, UO etc etc… SO WHAT. Arenanet went after the big market. To make money! They made changes and GW2 is much diff compared to GW1 in order to draw in new players. So they need to take into account changes and listen to the other playerbase. Doesn’t matter if its how you want the game to be… Its the demand of the customer and there are lot more than just ex g1 players here.
They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.
In addition, the release has been horrible. If beta was done to fix issues/bugs etc….i would have hated to play in beta. I’m not even talking about Orr and this has got to be the most bugged out release i have played in years! I almost miss subscription based MMO’s because keeping customer subscriptions at least gives the devs quite a bit more incentive to expedite important issues.
Even the non loot focused players are tired of class imbalances and end game content. The speed in which they are responding to important issues is very slow. They obviously rushed an unfinished product to beat out the wow expansion.
They knew they were releasing a broken product and since they don’t have subscriptions its all about initial cost. Smart but shady imo.
They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.
The fallacy of your argument is that they don’t need to keep customers, they need to have returning customers. No sub fee means they rely on box sales, and the 20/80 rule (20% of the player base will fund the other 80% play time via cash shop sales). The beauty of the 20/80 rule is that it does not rely on a set size in player base.
Returning customer psychology is much different from retention. Therefore if they focus on fixing bugs, with enough free content release, then they will most likely be able to get enough sales to justify an expansion. This business mode (notice I didn’t say game design philosophy) worked well for GW1 and also works well for most online shooters.
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.
People who are quit willing to state they refuse to do things that don’t reward them, then spend their time playing games are strange.
Shouldn’t you be working or getting an education? Something that rewards you?
Because a lot of people actually like the game but recognize that there are much needed changes? Lets stop being ridiculous… i think the motive is quite obvious and people complain because they would like some change.
I can already see the reply to this…
“This is GW2 not wow…If you want to play wow go play it…”
This isnt wow, this isnt swtor, this isnt aoc, aion, L1, l2, UO etc etc… SO WHAT. Arenanet went after the big market. To make money! They made changes and GW2 is much diff compared to GW1 in order to draw in new players. So they need to take into account changes and listen to the other playerbase. Doesn’t matter if its how you want the game to be… Its the demand of the customer and there are lot more than just ex g1 players here.
They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.
In addition, the release has been horrible. If beta was done to fix issues/bugs etc….i would have hated to play in beta. I’m not even talking about Orr and this has got to be the most bugged out release i have played in years! I almost miss subscription based MMO’s because keeping customer subscriptions at least gives the devs quite a bit more incentive to expedite important issues.
Even the non loot focused players are tired of class imbalances and end game content. The speed in which they are responding to important issues is very slow. They obviously rushed an unfinished product to beat out the wow expansion.
They knew they were releasing a broken product and since they don’t have subscriptions its all about initial cost. Smart but shady imo.
Show me one flawless mmo launch, just one… Actually, better yet, give me one 5+ years old mmo without class imbalance and bugs…
The reason GW2 is so different from GW1 is that they never wanted both to compete against each other. GW2 is also a game bound to break well estabilished concepts, but obviously it won’t ever happen for everyone. There will always be people unhappy about this game and they won’t ever be able to completely fix this.
Also, if you read more closely the posts of many many supporters of the gw2 playstyle, you will see that a lot of them never played GW1.
Better get your facts straight…
@Ordika, Robot:
Speculating what business model works / doesn’t work is way out of our realm of responsibility as consumers, so arguing either point holds no bearing on the direction of the product. We don’t work for the company, we don’t have nearly enough data to prove what business direction they need to take (regardless of what experiences we’ve had in our professions).
The only thing we can do is state what does / doesn’t work for us (individually) about the product and even go so far as to suggest solutions to the problems the product presents.
If you’ve got an issue with the game, present it (along w/ what you would do to fix it) and discuss; but seriously, stop flooding forums w/ discussions over what the company needs / needs not to do to survive.
“GW2 takes everything you love about GW1” – M. O’Brien
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“The most important thing in any game should be the player” – R. Soesbee
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“The most important thing in any game should be the player” – R. Soesbee
People don’t play ONLY for rewards. It has to be fun with the rewards. Look at Borderlands. The game itself is fun for a while, but imagine playing it with only 1 set of guns? Not so fun anymore. The fact that at any time you can find a bigger and better gun makes everything you do in that game MORE fun. They NAILED it completely and have the sales to prove it. Obviously Borderlands isn’t GW2, but the reward system is top notch. They “get it”.
I personally would never run any dungeon more than a handful of times, but I especially won’t do it if the reward is just a different skin. No way. And lots of people think like me. Probably most. If Anet just wants people to play for a month or two then leave until the next expansion, the got their wish, because that’s what basically is happening.
People don’t play ONLY for rewards. It has to be fun with the rewards. Look at Borderlands. The game itself is fun for a while, but imagine playing it with only 1 set of guns? Not so fun anymore. The fact that at any time you can find a bigger and better gun makes everything you do in that game MORE fun. They NAILED it completely and have the sales to prove it. Obviously Borderlands isn’t GW2, but the reward system is top notch. They “get it”.
I personally would never run any dungeon more than a handful of times, but I especially won’t do it if the reward is just a different skin. No way. And lots of people think like me. Probably most. If Anet just wants people to play for a month or two then leave until the next expansion, the got their wish, because that’s what basically is happening.
I agree with you on the “lots of people think like me”, but not on the “Probably most”.
The rewards here are skins and will ever be skins. If it isn’t enough for you, I’m sorry to say that it won’t change. This is their concept for a gameplay model. They know they will never be able to please everyone.
@Ordika, Robot:
Speculating what business model works / doesn’t work is way out of our realm of responsibility as consumers, so arguing either point holds no bearing on the direction of the product. We don’t work for the company, we don’t have nearly enough data to prove what business direction they need to take (regardless of what experiences we’ve had in our professions).
The only thing we can do is state what does / doesn’t work for us (individually) about the product and even go so far as to suggest solutions to the problems the product presents.
If you’ve got an issue with the game, present it (along w/ what you would do to fix it) and discuss; but seriously, stop flooding forums w/ discussions over what the company needs / needs not to do to survive.
What if said consumer was a business analyst and is paid to do just that. I was trying to say the same thing via counter argument (you don’t know whether the game will fail but if you are going to speculate do so from the proper business model). However one can definitely say is that the existing business model works as it did so for GW1 and continues to work with most online shooters. This is not opinion as the continued existence of these companies proves the model successful. Whether it will for GW2 is another matter, but I would bet on it working given track record and sales.
As to the other part, I love GW2 design philosophy and I hope it succeeds so more companies try it. But I also hope it doesn’t replace skinner box games as they to have their place and can coexist (I still have my Rift sub and play it). I won’t absolve the company from fixing bugs, but I have yet to see an unwillingness to do so. But I also understand prioritizing and the need to balance what you want to fix verse what you can fix, and would only complain if they start pumping out new content before the fix the existing content.
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
But do the rewards have to be skins? Why is design philosophy being confused as fiat that must be strictly followed? I know what the developers said, but that doesn’t mean what they said is necessarily right.
You have infrastructure in place for this game that balances characters… I see no reason why you can’t have sweet items that are hard to get and have awesome stats. Why do I see no reason? Because if it’s PvE, why does it matter what someone else has? If it’s WvW, you have balancing mechanics… so you can just balance the stats to only give exotic-equivalent stats. The PvE skilled keep their epicness in the PvE realm while the PvP/WvW skilled keep their awesomeness through skill alone in the PvP realms.
Win?
But do the rewards have to be skins? Why is design philosophy being confused as fiat that must be strictly followed? I know what the developers said, but that doesn’t mean what they said is necessarily right.
You have infrastructure in place for this game that balances characters… I see no reason why you can’t have sweet items that are hard to get and have awesome stats. Why do I see no reason? Because if it’s PvE, why does it matter what someone else has? If it’s WvW, you have balancing mechanics… so you can just balance the stats to only give exotic-equivalent stats. The PvE skilled keep their epicness in the PvE realm while the PvP/WvW skilled keep their awesomeness through skill alone in the PvP realms.
Win?
Just because gear treadmill is not something they want in their game. Is it really that hard to understand?
They don’t want it and there are MANY who like the game that way.
But do the rewards have to be skins? Why is design philosophy being confused as fiat that must be strictly followed? I know what the developers said, but that doesn’t mean what they said is necessarily right.
You have infrastructure in place for this game that balances characters… I see no reason why you can’t have sweet items that are hard to get and have awesome stats. Why do I see no reason? Because if it’s PvE, why does it matter what someone else has? If it’s WvW, you have balancing mechanics… so you can just balance the stats to only give exotic-equivalent stats. The PvE skilled keep their epicness in the PvE realm while the PvP/WvW skilled keep their awesomeness through skill alone in the PvP realms.
Win?
While on the face of it, it does not seem to effect anything because its PvE and they can scale in PvP, the design philosophy of this game from everything I have gathered leads me to believe they don’t want gear treadmills based on stats (aesthetics yes, stats no). It maybe nothing more then a branding issue, the part the makes GW2 stand out from the competition.
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
@Ordika, Robot:
Speculating what business model works / doesn’t work is way out of our realm of responsibility as consumers, so arguing either point holds no bearing on the direction of the product. We don’t work for the company, we don’t have nearly enough data to prove what business direction they need to take (regardless of what experiences we’ve had in our professions).
The only thing we can do is state what does / doesn’t work for us (individually) about the product and even go so far as to suggest solutions to the problems the product presents.
If you’ve got an issue with the game, present it (along w/ what you would do to fix it) and discuss; but seriously, stop flooding forums w/ discussions over what the company needs / needs not to do to survive.
What if said consumer was a business analyst and is paid to do just that.
Then my response would be
1. Are you paid by ArenaNet?
And if not
2. How can you as a business analyst assume you have enough information of a company you have no relations with (regardless if the business philosophies mimic those of other companies) to decide what is a successful business direction or not.
3. How do you think that any of your discussion on the topic would even trigger an “AHA!” moment from ArenaNet on how they choose to drive their company?
I’m in product development; I take ZERO advice from outside opinions on HOW to run my company (because they haven’t a clue as to any of the business details, unless I hired them as a consultant, brought them in and provided them with enough information to make logical decisions). I do take TONS of advice from consumers who have suggestions on what we can do to improve the products they use.
If you want to argue something, make it about the product, not the business. That’s the only way you’ll be able to provide any VALID constructive feedback.
“GW2 takes everything you love about GW1” – M. O’Brien
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“The most important thing in any game should be the player” – R. Soesbee
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“The most important thing in any game should be the player” – R. Soesbee
People don’t play ONLY for rewards. It has to be fun with the rewards. Look at Borderlands. The game itself is fun for a while, but imagine playing it with only 1 set of guns? Not so fun anymore. The fact that at any time you can find a bigger and better gun makes everything you do in that game MORE fun. They NAILED it completely and have the sales to prove it. Obviously Borderlands isn’t GW2, but the reward system is top notch. They “get it”.
I personally would never run any dungeon more than a handful of times, but I especially won’t do it if the reward is just a different skin. No way. And lots of people think like me. Probably most. If Anet just wants people to play for a month or two then leave until the next expansion, the got their wish, because that’s what basically is happening.
I agree with you on the “lots of people think like me”, but not on the “Probably most”.
The rewards here are skins and will ever be skins. If it isn’t enough for you, I’m sorry to say that it won’t change. This is their concept for a gameplay model. They know they will never be able to please everyone.
Maybe “most” is pushing as far as PvPers go. For people who love PvE, skins are NOT going to cut it over the long haul. Count on it. Having crazy gear gaps in PvP is not smart. That makes sense. PvP should just be about skins.
But with PvE, you’re not competing with other players. You’re playing with them, so you having better gear doesn’t really effect anyone besides wanting to know where you got it so they can get it too. Unless you’re hardcore, you’re not running a dungeon 50+ times for a skin, especially as imbalanced as it is right now. If the gear was a tier better, THEN people might be more motivated. I’m not saying make it easy either. Frustrating isn’t all that much fun and there’s a fine line between difficult and frustrating.
I don’t understand the whole we don’t want it argument.
If it’s players, how is it affecting you negatively, esp. if the gear is confined to the PvE realm?
If it’s the devs, how does this ruin your game precisely other than not fitting into your philosophy (which is a guiding principal, not a mandate)?
In terms of the actual treadmill part, does it have to follow the “oh I gotta do Dungeon A and gear in it to be able to do Dungeon B and so on….” or is there another way?
Say you have an “elite path” in each dungeon with the reward being a specialized token at the end; this path is real tough and requires players to really understand the game mechanics, their class, and the synergies with other classes. You need X of these tokens to get the top tier gear… but unlike the other dungeon sets, it’s all scattered about so you have to go to all sorts of different dungeons to make up the full set. Does it have to be token-based? No, whatever might work best, I just used it as an example because it’s familiar. The entry requirement for “elite path”? Nothing more than what it takes to get into the explorable mode for that dungeon… if you and your group have the skill and determination, you can get it.
It’s just a reflection of the larger culture we live in, not just a gamer thing. IRL many people are motivated to become a doctor, lawyer, businessman etc. not to help people or make the world a better place, but because “I wanna be rich, drive an expensive car, dress in tailored suits, have a beautiful wife and make everyone jealous of me.” Getting the “top tier” gear and such is just an in-game version of this.
This is a terrifying parallel.
Well, a Ferrari isn’t a Jeep, and you can argue that for as much as you spent on a Ferrari you should be able to take it off road, but the fact is it wasn’t designed for that. And no matter how many complaints you make to the company that builds Ferraris, they aren’t going to make them with 4-wheel drive, because they focus on a different part of the automotive market.
If you want to drive fast, you buy a Ferrari. If you want to drive over dirt and rocks, you buy a Jeep. You don’t buy a Ferrari and take it out into the wilderness, then complain to the company when it gets stuck.
(edited by tolunart.2095)
I don’t understand the whole we don’t want it argument.
If it’s players, how is it affecting you negatively, esp. if the gear is confined to the PvE realm?
If it’s the devs, how does this ruin your game precisely other than not fitting into your philosophy (which is a guiding principal, not a mandate)?
In terms of the actual treadmill part, does it have to follow the “oh I gotta do Dungeon A and gear in it to be able to do Dungeon B and so on….” or is there another way?
Say you have an “elite path” in each dungeon with the reward being a specialized token at the end; this path is real tough and requires players to really understand the game mechanics, their class, and the synergies with other classes. You need X of these tokens to get the top tier gear… but unlike the other dungeon sets, it’s all scattered about so you have to go to all sorts of different dungeons to make up the full set. Does it have to be token-based? No, whatever might work best, I just used it as an example because it’s familiar. The entry requirement for “elite path”? Nothing more than what it takes to get into the explorable mode for that dungeon… if you and your group have the skill and determination, you can get it.
Exactly. If its a tough challenge that’s not “cheap” and you don’t have to do it 40 times, how is that NOT a good thing? I’ll spend the time learning a tough encounter as long as I don’t have to do it again and again. Most of my friends are the same.
I don’t understand the whole we don’t want it argument.
If it’s players, how is it affecting you negatively, esp. if the gear is confined to the PvE realm?
If it’s the devs, how does this ruin your game precisely other than not fitting into your philosophy (which is a guiding principal, not a mandate)?
In terms of the actual treadmill part, does it have to follow the “oh I gotta do Dungeon A and gear in it to be able to do Dungeon B and so on….” or is there another way?
Say you have an “elite path” in each dungeon with the reward being a specialized token at the end; this path is real tough and requires players to really understand the game mechanics, their class, and the synergies with other classes. You need X of these tokens to get the top tier gear… but unlike the other dungeon sets, it’s all scattered about so you have to go to all sorts of different dungeons to make up the full set. Does it have to be token-based? No, whatever might work best, I just used it as an example because it’s familiar. The entry requirement for “elite path”? Nothing more than what it takes to get into the explorable mode for that dungeon… if you and your group have the skill and determination, you can get it.
Well I think that the biggest problem with gear treadmill systems is that they create a gap between players, and there is nothing besides time to close this gap.
So after some time with a gear treadmill system up, we will start seeing LFG calls asking for people with a minimum of a full set of tier 2 armor, because people will always want to finish whatever they are trying to do as fast as they could, and now, with a gear treadmill installed, they can, effectively measure some of the players capacity for participation on their group.
2. How can you as a business analyst assume you have enough information of a company you have no relations with (regardless if the business philosophies mimic those of other companies) to decide what is a successful business direction or not.
1) Publicly traded company.
2) Business Analyst get paid huge money to do just that, both from companies as well as investment firms and news outlets.
3) Past success plays a major roll in both model and design (if I know it works why deviate)
3. How do you think that any of your discussion on the topic would even trigger an “AHA!” moment from ArenaNet on how they choose to drive their company
I’m not trying to convince ANet of anything, I am trying to educate a gamer in how business model dictates design philosophy not the other way around. So his call to the company to change or they will fail is not valid. The will fail if they deviate from the design philosophy without adjusting the business model or vice versa.
I’m in product development; I take ZERO advice from outside opinions on HOW to run my company (because they haven’t a clue as to any of the business details, unless I hired them as a consultant, brought them in and provided them with enough information to make logical decisions). I do take TONS of advice from consumers who have suggestions on what we can do to improve the products they use.
If you want to argue something, make it about the product, not the business. That’s the only way you’ll be able to provide any VALID constructive feedback.
Consumers are outside opinions (they have no stake in your company unless you make the only life saving apparatus they can use), are fickle (history has proven this many times), and are many times not capable of rational thought (the only reason you need to add so much to cake mix is because when first introduced people thought it was crap because it was so easy to make).
Again, every company designs their products based on their business model. Not understanding that will not allow people to properly set their expectations in regards to said constructive feedback, because not every constructive feedback is valid (the two are not mutually exclusive).
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
I don’t understand the whole we don’t want it argument.
If it’s players, how is it affecting you negatively, esp. if the gear is confined to the PvE realm?
If it’s the devs, how does this ruin your game precisely other than not fitting into your philosophy (which is a guiding principal, not a mandate)?
In terms of the actual treadmill part, does it have to follow the “oh I gotta do Dungeon A and gear in it to be able to do Dungeon B and so on….” or is there another way?
Say you have an “elite path” in each dungeon with the reward being a specialized token at the end; this path is real tough and requires players to really understand the game mechanics, their class, and the synergies with other classes. You need X of these tokens to get the top tier gear… but unlike the other dungeon sets, it’s all scattered about so you have to go to all sorts of different dungeons to make up the full set. Does it have to be token-based? No, whatever might work best, I just used it as an example because it’s familiar. The entry requirement for “elite path”? Nothing more than what it takes to get into the explorable mode for that dungeon… if you and your group have the skill and determination, you can get it.
Exactly. If its a tough challenge that’s not “cheap” and you don’t have to do it 40 times, how is that NOT a good thing? I’ll spend the time learning a tough encounter as long as I don’t have to do it again and again. Most of my friends are the same.
But thats rather about asking for a challenge to gain a reward and not about the reward itself.
(edited by Pirlipat.2479)
True, I don’t want to just be handed the carrot. I want Anet to wave it my face, throw it down the dangerous corridor and be like “go get it”.
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED
Sorry if that seemed confusing before… I wasn’t asking for another tier of gear that required more of the same dungeon run or tokens. I do want a higher tier of gear, but only if that gear is harder to get than the exotics. I like the idea of exotics being the high quality that you can get through farming mats or doing dungeons… because they’re alternative playstyles. However, there should be that upper echelon of gear that really tests your abilities and knowledge of the game (at least in PvE).
(edited by Bruno Sardine.2907)
“Just seems like a massive flaw in peoples mindset”
Perhaps, but it is also in the nature of the RPG genre in its current state, simply due to there being an extensive leveling system that dishes out these rewards.
haha, oh man. Did someone actually say they dislike the game because it promotes Socialism? What is wrong with people these days.
They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.
The fallacy of your argument is that they don’t need to keep customers, they need to have returning customers. No sub fee means they rely on box sales, and the 20/80 rule (20% of the player base will fund the other 80% play time via cash shop sales). The beauty of the 20/80 rule is that it does not rely on a set size in player base.
Returning customer psychology is much different from retention. Therefore if they focus on fixing bugs, with enough free content release, then they will most likely be able to get enough sales to justify an expansion. This business mode (notice I didn’t say game design philosophy) worked well for GW1 and also works well for most online shooters.
If a business thinks it doesnt HAVE TO keep customers because they are basically doing good enough…. thats just a horrible way to settle with your products quality and will drive customers away. They obviously want this game to be more successful than gw1.
Show me one flawless mmo launch, just one… Actually, better yet, give me one 5+ years old mmo without class imbalance and bugs…
The reason GW2 is so different from GW1 is that they never wanted both to compete against each other. GW2 is also a game bound to break well estabilished concepts, but obviously it won’t ever happen for everyone. There will always be people unhappy about this game and they won’t ever be able to completely fix this.
Also, if you read more closely the posts of many many supporters of the gw2 playstyle, you will see that a lot of them never played GW1.
Better get your facts straight…
My complaint wasn’t that MMO’s have bugs. Its that this game was rushed and highly unfinished or thought out. It had far more problems than most any other MMO that ive played when it comes to end game content. 1-2 weeks is quite a bit of time to make players wait when Orr was/is almost unplayable or just a boring broken zerg. It was definitely a huge red flag when they waited to test optimization til the last minute and the game was unplayable for a good chunk of the community.
A lot of people didnt come from gw1. They wanted new blood. It was needed to make changes in order to raise success with the sequel. It’s not a non profit….people want more money.
Its impossible to come up with a ratio of unhappy reward focused players vs happy players who are happy with the gear progression but i see a lot more people who are aren’t happy enough or going back to other mmo’s and are bored. It also seems that more of the happy customers havent really seen how bland everything is at 80 yet. Pre 80 everything looks great minus a few bugs.
Bottom line is…I can be happy with the game we are supposed to have…but they are taking their time getting there. Right now the classes are cookie cutter (which they said wouldnt happen) and there is very few things to do at 80. Its all farming and grinding. Spvp Tpvp? joke… the class i play forces me to focus on only a few specific builds. the 2-3 variants id like to try are broken or to underpowered to compete or both.
Too many mmo’s put waaay too much emphasis on the pre release and release but dont put nearly enough thought into how they are going to handle post release. There is no reason that we can’t have more class balance in these last few patches.
Most MMO’s fail because they fall behind from the very beginning! Customers have such a short attention span that this kills the player base quick. example… swtor? dw3? war?
If a business thinks it doesnt HAVE TO keep customers because they are basically doing good enough…. thats just a horrible way to settle with your products quality and will drive customers away. They obviously want this game to be more successful than gw1.
Not having to and not wanting to are two completely different things and have completely different designs/goals.
Skinner Box MMO’s have to keep people playing because they rely on subs.
F2P MMO’s have to keep people playing because they rely on large amounts of cash shop purchases.
B2P with cash shop don’t have to (they want to) because their profits are mostly made via initial sales, and expansion sales (these do not require retention as all current players will probably buy and a large set of previous players are likely to take the plunge).
So a B2P isn’t beholden to their customers, they are free to make the game they want. Now that doesn’t mean they will completely ignore you (and I never insinuated they would) because happy playing customer are more likely to spend on the cash shop, but temper your expectations accordingly. Phrase your request accordingly (saying they will fail is a sure way to be ignored), and most of all work with them withing the framework which they have laid. ANet has not laid a skinner box framework and are unlikely to change that.
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
I don’t think it’s just about rewards, per se, but having cool stuff to look forward to. We get all our skills up front, so that leaves it all up to gear. And level after level, too much of the gear is the same. Then at 80, it’s even more of the same.
What I mean is that I think it’s just good gameplay, when there’s more of an evolution of content involved. When things change, when there are milestones to look forward to. Often in the form of reward, but not necessarily. That’s not the important thing. The important thing is keeping the content from stagnating, by changing it up here and there.
haha, oh man. Did someone actually say they dislike the game because it promotes Socialism? What is wrong with people these days.
I f’in hate socialism, and even I think that type of analogy is ridiculous. Does Chess promote socialism because the two sides are perfectly balanced?
Giving people balanced stats from the start has nothing to do with socialism or an “everybody wins” mentality; it’s a way of levelling the playing field so that winners and losers are decided by player skill, AND NOT BY THE AMOUNT OF TIME THEY’VE PAID SUBS TO kitten DEVELOPERS!!!
I don’t think it’s just about rewards, per se, but having cool stuff to look forward to. We get all our skills up front, so that leaves it all up to gear. And level after level, too much of the gear is the same. Then at 80, it’s even more of the same.
What I mean is that I think it’s just good gameplay, when there’s more of an evolution of content involved. When things change, when there are milestones to look forward to. Often in the form of reward, but not necessarily. That’s not the important thing. The important thing is keeping the content from stagnating, by changing it up here and there.
This reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. Why even bother with levels. Your weapons skill are obtained as you use the weapon but done so at a clip that I had every skill for every weapon as a Warrior unlocked before I left the first zone. They could have instead added more skill points and left skill acquisition strictly through skill point hunting.
I think that they wanted some progressions (you can’t completely leave it out) but were more interested in story/event progression then stat progression. But put in stat progression as a mean of slowly adjusting people from the skinner box model.
Ordika Skirata || Keirstaad Rhith || Rhun Turold || Quinten Vigar || Ahrung Park
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
Swansonites of North Shiverpeak – Northern Shiverpeaks
For those who don’t “get” the socialism analogy – Socialism is basically the opposite of Competition. Socialism in an MMO environment philosophically-speaking, is a situation in which you assume players are going to continue to enjoy content for which they can’t compete to make their hero better than the average joe’s, simply because they “enjoy” it.
In a Competitive environment, the one in which the rewards-based player gains the most enjoyment, the player is continually striving to become stronger, better than the average joe. Its what drives you to keep playing. You may agree or disagree with this type of philosophy depending on what type of player you are, but for many MMOers, this is how it works.
In the end, people are just voicing their opinions, suggestions, whatever you want to call it. These opinions and suggestions are mainly directed at arenanet, because to be frank, it’s not likely we’ll be able to change the other side’s views. There’s really no point for some people to convince “the other side” that they’re wrong, differing opinions isn’t wrong, and in the end whether arenanet changes their game is up to them. Some people can say, don’t like it go play something else, say that enough times and you can play on an half empty server. Not like we haven’t seen that before with other games. You don’t have to worry, if arenanet doesn’t change the game, then the people will leave on their own, no need to argue about it.
If a business thinks it doesnt HAVE TO keep customers because they are basically doing good enough…. thats just a horrible way to settle with your products quality and will drive customers away. They obviously want this game to be more successful than gw1.
Not having to and not wanting to are two completely different things and have completely different designs/goals.
Skinner Box MMO’s have to keep people playing because they rely on subs.
F2P MMO’s have to keep people playing because they rely on large amounts of cash shop purchases.
B2P with cash shop don’t have to (they want to) because their profits are mostly made via initial sales, and expansion sales (these do not require retention as all current players will probably buy and a large set of previous players are likely to take the plunge).
So a B2P isn’t beholden to their customers, they are free to make the game they want. Now that doesn’t mean they will completely ignore you (and I never insinuated they would) because happy playing customer are more likely to spend on the cash shop, but temper your expectations accordingly. Phrase your request accordingly (saying they will fail is a sure way to be ignored), and most of all work with them withing the framework which they have laid. ANet has not laid a skinner box framework and are unlikely to change that.
If a customer is not satisfied with the company they are dealing with they will leave and use another product. Regardless of the product. Customer service is huge. Even with b2p it is simply not enough to put in half the effort with the understanding that they can easily get players to buy an expansion.
I don’t think that is their focus but the pressure to react quicker is just not there. Also i hope they are smart enough to understand that if the initial Gw2 game is a bad experience then their customers probably wont waste 60$ again trying to gamble on the expansion. There is just far too much competition in several different genres.
These posts are for discussion and not so much to light a fire under anet. I know better. I’m over trying to push for the right changes where needed because thats in their hands.
Either they are choosing to place these big issues on the back burner they are fully aware but dont have the resources to resolve them. Either way its poor planning and even when comparing to previous MMO’s …I grade them a D+. I’ll be nice.
The skinner box debate…
Too many people tie “skinner box” to how wows vertical progression worked in some areas. You say gw2 doesnt have that quality… but thats false. Everything is reward based! Not only that but the grind is worse for a much lower reward! lol Thats one of the huge complaints at the moment with karama /mat/token/badge farming.
The only difference is gear doesnt give a much higher advantage compared to other MMO’s…. GW2 is far from the first mmo to try this and the bigger problem is gear becomes a none issue at 80. There needs to be something else as a reward besides armor skins. Maybe not for you…but for enough other players that it would be a problem.
If guild wars 2 had truly epic end game content people wouldn’t care whether there was gear, skill slots or abilities to grind for when they reach 80. The enjoyment of simply participating in PvE or PvP would be enough to keep people coming back.
The fact that people are struggling to find a reason to continue playing after reaching max level is surely a sign the end game experience is simply not epic, enjoyable or good enough for continued gameplay.
Dungeons offer nothing new or exciting. PVP is nothing we haven’t seen in other games. Add to this all the bugs, combat system issues, lack of diversity with skills, long cooldowns on abilities and seemingly endless amounts of running, either away from enemy npc’s in PvE, or chasing after people in PvP.
This whole conflation of end game gear grind with capitalism and lack of such with socialism is so misguided I don’t even know where to begin. So I’ll just say: this has nothing to do with politics so please leave it out of this conversation.
This is really about players habituated to addictive/exploitative models of game design having withdrawal pangs when exposed to a game that relies on the intrinsic fun of gameplay as its core reward mechanic. IE it’s a “game” in the schoolyard sense- it’s fun to do it for the sake of doing it. Not a “game” in the casino sense where you play because your neurotransmitters light up when you get your jackpot on your random reward schedule.
Personally I still play games just for the fun of playing and for the enjoyment of becoming more skilled over time. Not for the make-believe trinkets being dangled in front of me as ostensible rewards. For example I enjoy fighting games and arcade games because progression relies on me as a player becoming more skilled over time. If there were items you could grind that would give you a handicap over other players it would not be fun. This is what I enjoy about WvW because, although gear plays some part, on a grand scale it’s good teamwork and strategy that carries the day. As servers become more organized in the months to come and we get past ‘zerg’ tactics I think we’ll see this mechanic come out more and more.
If you can’t just enjoy the gameplay without your contrived reward mechanic and cry out “socialism!” when you don’t feel like a special snowflake compared to other players who haven’t been grinding as long as you… i don’t know what to tell you other than go to rehab.
As I said above, Robot, introducing gear trademills to the game wouldn’t affect only those who want them. It would affect everyone.
Right now, people having the best looks means nothing regards to character power in stats. With better gear being introduced for harder dungeons, a seasoned level 80 will be miles ahead of a fresh one and that gap will just bring to this game all the problems we saw on many others.
Aesthetics is what people will have to work for, in GW2. I’m not against a better solution for skins grinding than what we have now, but as soon as they bring stronger level 80 equipments that are harder to acquire, people will start being elitist about what they got and with whom they play with, and suddently, we will have the exact mentality that was never intended to be part of any Guild Wars game.
Guild Wars is all about equality. You can grind your eye off for vanity items but that is as far as you will always go as things to grind for, because grinding for power will never be part of this game besides leveling up. It is the playstyle model chosen for this game as well as Guild Wars 1 and it worked pretty well.
What I don’t get is, with so many games out there with the reward-centric “end game”, why can’t people like me, who don’t like this playstyle, can’t have a game to enjoy?
I’ve raided in WoW for many years after the best top tiered gear. Never found it fun at all and only did it so I could keep playing with my guild and friends… Here I can do whatever I want, and still be able to do any content available in the game with them if I want. Gear won’t stop me, at least not for anything more than a very small amount of time. Skill will always be the only limiting factor, and I’m ok with it.
Every MMO from 2005-2015:
New MMO Announcment: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! This is going to be the best MMO EVER!”
First Beta: “(MMO) is so awesome! It’s so much better than anything I’ve played in years!”
Last Beta: Mix of “(MMO) is so awesome! I can’t wait for the public release!” and “I thought (MMO) would be good but the graphics/abilities/quests don’t live up to the hype.” Fanboy/troll arguments begin.
One week after release: “(MMO) could have been great, but they didn’t fix the problems it had in beta and now X, Y, and Z are broken. The game is full of bots and noobs, I got to end level and now I’m bored…” Declarations of utter failure begin.
One month after release: “OMG! They’re making an MMO about (theme)! That is going to be the best MMO EVER!” Quitter threads outnumber praise threads.
In this case the problem is VERY “fixable” unlike several other MMO’s that have came and went, the problems were so fundamental that it’d take years to improve the situation.
This is simply rewarding people for challenging content, Throw some more silver out of explorable dungeons, jumping puzzles (at least the first time you solve them), and group events. Make there be things that are NOT skin based available for purchase with dungeon tokens that are NOT Soulbound, like ectos, or lodestones.
Boom, dungeons are now rewarding whether you want the skins or not, and challenging content is rewarding in general.
Zapp – 80 Asura Afromancer
(edited by Devildoc.6721)