Guild Wars 2

They really have to work on the risk (or time)/ reward ratio.

this is very much true dungeons suffer from this too they all payt he same no matter what lvl the dungeon is or how long it takes

i get more yellows from random mobs than champions as they eeither drop nothing or drop a white item or a blue i dont think i ve ever gotten a g reen so far.

I agree. The reward system needs a new overhaul. Miss having to spend endless hours tweaking my build so that i can become strong enough to run a dungeon that will award me a guaranteed awesome item.

It feels like an insult to the people who have played this game for so long when a person who has playing for a few weeks gets a precursor drop.

Risk vs. Reward is an issue in the game and ArenaNet seems to be aware of it. Supposedly we are getting a reward rebalance patch at the end of next month if I’m not mistaken.. but after having hopes for this patch and then actually seeing the changes.. I really don’t expect anything from it.

That’s why I don’t give a kitten about legendaries/fancy items.

ALL GAMES have the weird idea of all player paying exactly the same amount of money to play and yet, reward only one with a “exclusive” item regardless of skills or time spent.

Looking at the risk versus reward literally take anyone of the hearts for an example. NPC tells you that “there is a band of outlaws rustling my cattle. Could you do something about them? I can reward you!” ’ So off you go to do battle with the bandit boss and his henchmen and come back for that promised reward of ….. a handful of copper coins.

Now consider that a slab of red meat goes for three copper and by the size of those cows one should be able to get at least 100 slabs of red meat from one of them it makes one want to go help the outlaws!

The risks vs rewards in this game is kittens compared to others actually. I actually got better loots from playing TERA. (yeah, I played TERA because my friend asked me too. Stop playing because I keep on pressing the dodge button, in which there is NONE in TERA. Even if there was one, it sucks and my ranger type char dodge is a skill and the skill is slow.)

Oh, quest loot in TERA is way better too. Over here, if you don’t have enough Karma, you can’t buy them and even if you buy them, it is POINTLESS after a short while as you would have gotten better ones from another vendor!

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed myself today doing arah p4 for the first time with 4 others who have never done it, but spending 3 hours in there and getting 2 rares and 60 tokens same as the other paths that are three times shorter doesn’t make it very rewarding. The biggest selling point of an mmo is progression or at least the reward, gw2 has nothing other than a lucky precursor drop which most of us will never see.

My team was great, it required the utmost coordination and patience. Jesus that one was tough but so fun.

Kryptonite.9376:

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed myself today doing arah p4 for the first time with 4 others who have never done it, but spending 3 hours in there and getting 2 rares and 60 tokens same as the other paths that are three times shorter doesn’t make it very rewarding. The biggest selling point of an mmo is progression or at least the reward, gw2 has nothing other than a lucky precursor drop which most of us will never see.

2 rares is actually pretty lucky for a run……lol

First, there is no risk in the game. The value being used up is our time. In that time, it’s how we feel about our experience that’s important. Obviously, we want to feel good about it. Earning a shiny at the end doesn’t replace an annoying or agitating experience. That is the biggest problem I see, the agitation. Because the only way the developers appear to be making things take longer, is to make them more annoying.

They need to stop all the thoughts of difficulty and make it fun. As soon as a Dev begins to think of “Risk v Reward” they need to slap themselves. Then start thinking about the experience. Because a good experience becomes the reward.

DeWolfe.2174:

First, there is no risk in the game.

This deserves to be quoted again. There is absolutely 0 risk of doing anything in this game. Whereas other games are much less forgiving. You die? You sorry, you’ll drop that +7 armor you have. Died again? -10% exp for you. I see you’re a new player. Here, go die repeatedly from people camping the spawn point. Oh not to mention, despite being a f2p, you still need to buy item X for real money to be competitive with other players. You also have to be toxic to that other player, he’s stealing your loot!

The highest penalty is only repair bills, and that can hardly be called ‘expensive’.

Maybe that’s why there’s very little reward, there’s also hardly any risk in the game.

DeWolfe.2174:

First, there is no risk in the game. The value being used up is our time. In that time, it’s how we feel about our experience that’s important. Obviously, we want to feel good about it. Earning a shiny at the end doesn’t replace an annoying or agitating experience. That is the biggest problem I see, the agitation. Because the only way the developers appear to be making things take longer, is to make them more annoying.

They need to stop all the thoughts of difficulty and make it fun. As soon as a Dev begins to think of “Risk v Reward” they need to slap themselves. Then start thinking about the experience. Because a good experience becomes the reward.

here, have a +1

Zero.6082:

Final thought: I get more from chopping a tree in Runescape then killing a champion in GW2!

Yeah, they should make all champs drop a daily chest with a chance at a rare and at least one t6 mat as a reward. Or maybe a token system with vendor rewards for killing them. One token per day per champ. Get people back out into the beautiful open world of Tyria.

Chests for meta events that drop 1 random t6 would be nice. Good idea.

Kryptonite.9376:

Chests for meta events that drop 1 random t6 would be nice. Good idea.

I’d also add a title system for them as well. Yet another reason to get people out and working towards something.

there is no risk and reward in gw2
there is only lottery

Low risk everywhere.
Low reward everywhere.
Varying level of time comittments.

This is why there are 70 people standing at the feet of Tequatl and no one doing the Megadestroyer.

Zero.6082:

Final thought: I get more from chopping a tree in Runescape then killing a champion in GW2!

Hahaha… I get more for chopping a tree in this game…. in a level 10 zone, then I get for soloing a level 80 Champion in this game….

I don’t even know why Champions exist other than to screw over newbies who just want certain Skill-Points or map completion. None of them are fun to fight… that’s for sure

penatbater.4710:

DeWolfe.2174:

First, there is no risk in the game.

This deserves to be quoted again. There is absolutely 0 risk of doing anything in this game. Whereas other games are much less forgiving. You die? You sorry, you’ll drop that +7 armor you have. Died again? -10% exp for you. I see you’re a new player. Here, go die repeatedly from people camping the spawn point. Oh not to mention, despite being a f2p, you still need to buy item X for real money to be competitive with other players. You also have to be toxic to that other player, he’s stealing your loot!

The highest penalty is only repair bills, and that can hardly be called ‘expensive’.

Maybe that’s why there’s very little reward, there’s also hardly any risk in the game.

I agree with this…but the OP is not entirely wrong either. Perhaps it just needs to be worded differently. Effort/Time vs. Reward

Dungeon 1 takes 10 minutes. Dungeon 2 takes 30 minutes. They have the same risk but one still requires a greater investment in time.

Why should they have the same rewards?

Still waiting on their rewards revamp I was told about. I thought it might have been loaded in this patch but apparently not.

At this point there’s nothing for me to do but wait months from now and check back to see what they’ve done with the game. Maybe then they’ll have improved it to the point it’s joined the modern games in regards to balance in PVE, rewards, ui elements, economy. Until then I guess the only thing to do is to just wait and play something else.

Basically what the OP said…Progression is certainly one of the core things that keeps people playing MMO’s, but since there is a lack of a gear treadmill that switches to reward, which is currently non-existent.

Why bother killing champions when i’m going to be rewarded with a blue or green equipment? I can trim the Shatterer’s toenails and I’ll get something better.

When the experienced fun runs out do to repetition, you start chasing goals. When those goals are limited to cosmetic items, which are really tied to drops (and/or earnings). Reward becomes a central focus. I think they’ve improved, but they really do have a ways to go.

THIS is why i dont do dungeons unless my guild needs 1 more.

THIS is why I havent set foot in fractals in months.

You’ll get a couple silver for completing an event but it costs more than that to WP across the world to do a dragon event…..and most of the times you’ll get blues, maybe greens and the occasional white in the chest.

See also my signature v

There’s a reason why I stopped doing Arah once I got the armor pieces I wanted. I don’t feel that it’s worth the time it takes to do it. I can run CoF in 10 minutes and get the same amount of gold, if not more, than I get in an hour spent in Arah. Yes, Arah can be done in 30 minutes, but still. In that time I can make 3g+ in CoF as opposed to the maybe 80s I’ll make in Arah.
I’ve had a guildie asking for Arah path 4 help, and I just keep telling him that the 3 hours I’m going to spend in there is not worth the 66 tokens I’ll gain and sanity I’ll lose when the Simin chest gives me a blue rampager shield.
I’m currently working towards Dawn, and it’s a really disheartening battle. Honestly, if Anet was like, we’ll give you a precursor, just run Arah Path 4 every day for 3 weeks, I’d throw a kittening party.

I’m happy to do most of what I do in game for fun. If I’m enjoying myself, that’s enough for me. But even I find that after 15 minutes of taking on a champion mob and receiving a blue that I wound up vendoring is… unusual in my gaming experience.

Anet largely misses the mark on its reward system across the various the aspects of their game. If I wasn’t having fun more often than not, I’d be steaming kitten ed.

Zero.6082:

Final thought: I get more from chopping a tree in Runescape then killing a champion in GW2!

Indeed, this is a serious problem with the game, and one that is costing them a lot of players, every day.

It’s not so much the reward that needs work; it’s the risk.

There is no risk in GW2. This game is like an amusement park. When you get on the the rides you’ll get your candy. Because the ride is so easy they have to make the good candy very rare. This is the same way a lottery system works. We spend our money (time) in exchange for the chance to get good candy.

In other games; when you keep failing at something you have a big repair bill and spent resources on consumables.

In GW2 you still get candy when you fail. It’s like being on the short bus.

Ever try leveling in WvW? Oh man, horrible reward system. Until you get to a certain level, there is a karma vendor who will sell you level appropriate gear…

But

The quality rotates. So at lvl 10 it’s lvl 10 blue gear, then at 15 you get access to lvl 15 green gear but there is no lvl 15 blue (it’s still lvl 10). At some point you get rare (gold) gear with one of the other color types 5 lvl below and the other color type 5 lvls further (10 lvls below the lvl you just unlocked).

To make it even worse, the xp/karma ratio is not balanced. You don’t get enough karma and so in those 5 lvls, you won’t have the karma needed to refit your char with the next, unlocked, karma set. So to actually be of any benefit to the cause as an uplvl, you will need to be on top of your gear. The only way to do this is to actually spend money in the TP to top up what you couldn’t afford with karma.

Here’s bit of a kicker. The levels don’t line up. At lvl 14 you can buy masterworks (green) on TP but you don’t get it in WvW at the karma vendor until lvl 15.

Also, there is only one kind of gear at the WvW karma vendor (invaders).

It was as if they were going somewhere with it, then abandoned it but put it in the game unfinished anyway.

For a bunch of people that wanted a game where people do not have to grind, they sure did a good job where the best way to level is to grind.

What I mean by this is…

Lvling through simply killing open world mobs over and over and doing only events that involve killing waves of mobs will have a better gold earned per level ration than any other way. Provided you roam a little and mix up the mob types, making sure to move on to the next (higher lvl) area.

I understand the dynamics of risk/reward. It is the underlying dynamic of magic find, i.e., putting yourself at greater risk to increase your chance of reward. All well and good. But, perhaps I am getting old. These days I think more in terms of reward for play. We play games to have fun and we all have dramatically different playstyles. Rather than double down on one motivator/dynamic why not expand it to reward for investment in the game through play, recognizing there are many ways to play the game.

Raine.1394:

I understand the dynamics of risk/reward. It is the underlying dynamic of magic find, i.e., putting yourself at greater risk to increase your chance of reward. All well and good. But, perhaps I am getting old. These days I think more in terms of reward for play. We play games to have fun and we all have dramatically different playstyles. Rather than double down on one motivator/dynamic why not expand it to reward for investment in the game through play, recognizing there are many ways to play the game.

That works short term only. There is very little long term returns for the investment. Arenanet has changed from updating once every 30 days to once every 15 days.

Why do you think that is?

Because people are bored of easy content. You do it once and that’s it. You’re done. You don’t log in anymore.

If they designed something difficult and something easy; I guarantee you the difficult content would get more play time and for much longer duration. That’s a much smarter investment to make as a developer. Rolling out easy content more frequently is not only a more expensive business model but, the customer base would drop the game for another much faster. Thus making your business model much more risky.

Blue how I hate you so. Heaps of stuff sold to vendors and salvaged. It feels like I am standing in a boiler room heaving shovel after shovel of trash into the furnace. That is what loot is to me here.

Ok. But risk? What risk? I dont see any risk either.

Zero.6082:

Due to the Random Generator for items one person can put in a million hours do every thing and hit nothing but air, where as another can get a precursor in a week? What is the point?

Sounds to me like it is working as it was intended. To me, it looks like the game was designed so that time is simply not a factor. Someone who only has 2 hours a day to play can be competitive, at least item wise, against someone who plays 12 hours a day. Yea, the latter is going to have much more player skill than the former, but gear wise they will be close to even.

I know it’s frustrating, but you just got unlucky finding one of the only games on the market to do this right now. It’s equally frustrating in other games for those people who have no time, basically being punished for not being able to devote their entire lives to an MMO.

/prepared for incoming flamestorm about how devoting your life to MMOs entitles you to more goodies

Kryptonite.9376:

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed myself today doing arah p4 for the first time with 4 others who have never done it, but spending 3 hours in there and getting 2 rares and 60 tokens same as the other paths that are three times shorter doesn’t make it very rewarding. The biggest selling point of an mmo is progression or at least the reward, gw2 has nothing other than a lucky precursor drop which most of us will never see.

My team was great, it required the utmost coordination and patience. Jesus that one was tough but so fun.

You stated you “enjoyed myself today doing arah p4” and “Jesus that one was tough but so fun”. It sounds to me like you got your reward; the enjoyment of playing a game with your friends. THAT’s the point of Guild Wars 2 and how it is different from other MMOs. It’s about the experience and fun you have playing the game rather than collecting a few more pixelated shinies.

For some players coming from a background of games where it’s all about chasing those pixelated shinies, then this is going to be a difficult or even impossible transition to make. However, don’t assume what motivates you to play a game is the same as what motivates others.

I run dungeons with my guildies for the fun of playing together as a group of friends, overcoming the challenges, and improving our skills. The rewards from the chests and completing the dungeon are completely secondary to that goal to the point that I don’t even bother reviewing in detail what drops I get. I could truly care less; I merchant them or salvage them and off to the next dungeon with my friends. The important part was that I had fun.

I understand that this approach to gaming is not for everyone nor do I expect them to adopt my approach. Likewise, players for whom it’s all about the rewards from a chest will need to understand that isn’t what GW2 is about. Grinding is kept to a minimum (and made optional rather than mandatory), the gating of content based on gear has been greatly reduced (Ascended gear and agony resistance for high level fractals being the exceptions and optional rather than required), the economy is kept under control to prevent pay-to-win, and gear quickly reaches max stats with the only difference being cosmetic. One consequence of those design elements is there are no guaranteed drops of high-end items with the exception of yellows from world bosses.

ArenaNet may tweak drops a bit in a future patch, but it’s never going to become a gear-gated game like so many other MMOs out there. You either find that a refreshing change and enjoy the other challenges and rewards the game has to offer (i.e. having fun with your friends rather than chasing shinies) or you don’t. If you don’t, that doesn’t mean the game is going to undergo a radical overhaul to appeal to those who seek the pixelated rewards. GW2 is it’s own game and not a carbon copy of every other MMO out there.

Since a lot of people are asking for, they are increasing the risk, trying to make the game more challenger. But without increasing the reward (and even lowering – read Orr) there is no reason to try this “challenge”. See what happened to Orr, that happened with grenth temple, what will happen to Jormag.

I have no reason to try kill a Champion to drop a blue or even white item (never droped even a green) if I can drop yellows more easly and often from normal monsters. Even veterans I’ll avoid. Champions should be a guaranteed yellow at last.

MMORPGs aren’t console games that your objective is finish the game through a challenge. MMORPG are endless and ur objective is to become better and have items (to become better). That are the role of the MMOs, in my opinion, that is a big risk with a big reward from items, not the challenge itself only. I know they are trying to break paradigms and make the game better, but they are doing it in the wrong way!

Sorry for my english.

ilr.9675:

Hahaha… I get more for chopping a tree in this game…. in a level 10 zone, then I get for soloing a level 80 Champion in this game….

This needs to be plasted on a wall where Anet holds their morning meetings. I cant +1 this enough.

I anxiously await this reward revamp I keep hearing about.

EverythingXen.1835:

ilr.9675:

Hahaha… I get more for chopping a tree in this game…. in a level 10 zone, then I get for soloing a level 80 Champion in this game….

This needs to be plasted on a wall where Anet holds their morning meetings. I cant +1 this enough.

I anxiously await this reward revamp I keep hearing about.

Yup.

I can exit Lion’s Arch through the south gate and go scuba diving in the waters of Bloodtide Coast for Gold Ore and Platinum Ore. More rewarding that facing a champion that’ll take me 10 minutes to kill solo.

DeWolfe.2174:

First, there is no risk in the game. The value being used up is our time. In that time, it’s how we feel about our experience that’s important. Obviously, we want to feel good about it. Earning a shiny at the end doesn’t replace an annoying or agitating experience. That is the biggest problem I see, the agitation. Because the only way the developers appear to be making things take longer, is to make them more annoying.

They need to stop all the thoughts of difficulty and make it fun. As soon as a Dev begins to think of “Risk v Reward” they need to slap themselves. Then start thinking about the experience. Because a good experience becomes the reward.

Can you explain what a good experience is? I’m sure the developers believe what they’re creating is a good experience. The problem with your argument is that it’s too subjective.

Can you entertain a grown adult with Saturday morning cartoons? If you can then why aren’t they targeted to adults? In trying to target all age groups you only end up pleasing the youngest most ignorant market. Which is what GW2 is going for with their abusive lottery system.

Risk vs Reward is something no MMO has ever been able to solve. Other MMO hide behind it by putting lockdown timers and RNG, Arenanet developer stupidly thought simply making a game “fun” and not focus on loot with make players happy and that certainly did not work.

Guild wars 2 current implementation in my IMO doesn’t allow for a lot of reward or good reward because give people what they want and they stop doing the content then they start complaining how there is little content to do. I remember this on the first week back in orr, people whining after speed running orr for hours got their full set and start complaining.

To me guild wars 2 will never have any good rewards until Arenanet mans up and do what other MMOs have done and put rewards behind instances and slap a long cool down timer like other games have done or they could simply leave the current system, either ways someone will complain it is the nature of the genre. Without complaints official forums would be dead.

Calae.1738:

DeWolfe.2174:

First, there is no risk in the game. The value being used up is our time. In that time, it’s how we feel about our experience that’s important. Obviously, we want to feel good about it. Earning a shiny at the end doesn’t replace an annoying or agitating experience. That is the biggest problem I see, the agitation. Because the only way the developers appear to be making things take longer, is to make them more annoying.

They need to stop all the thoughts of difficulty and make it fun. As soon as a Dev begins to think of “Risk v Reward” they need to slap themselves. Then start thinking about the experience. Because a good experience becomes the reward.

Can you explain what a good experience is? I’m sure the developers believe what they’re creating is a good experience. The problem with your argument is that it’s too subjective.

Can you entertain a grown adult with Saturday morning cartoons? If you can then why aren’t they targeted to adults? In trying to target all age groups you only end up pleasing the youngest most ignorant market. Which is what GW2 is going for with their abusive lottery system.

You really can’t call guild wars 2 system abusive, because you don’t have to deal with it. It is like sticking your hand in a hot pot of water and whining why you got burnt. The loot is fine simply because it is not mandatory for whatever passes as progression in the genre.

Champions should drop mandatory greens and the harder ones (I´m looking at you Monster thingy at Dragonblest Hold, Wayfarer Foothills) a daily chest.
It´s downright insulting our intelligence to battle some of these.

I understand well that a balance has to be found between “inundating” the player with items and cash and keeping things frugal to battle inflation. Especially in a game that basically finances itself through a virtual currency that can be bought instead with actual in game Gold.
But the current balance is much too askew, hampering player satisfaction.

Which is the real currency in any MMO.

I wonder if getting bad loot is a consequence of having a shared loot system? In other games you have many people attacking a monster and only one gets the loot. In this game, maybe you have to take the same amount of loot and divide it among many players in order to avoid runaway inflation.

Anet was like this in GW1. They ruined the loot so bad there was no reason to pick it up. Sorry to say, they are doing the same here. Most of the players I have talked to this week say they are just waiting for a new game and they’re gone. The high traffic here is not the result of a superior game, it’s the result of no monthly fee.

I’m spending my time watching from afar now but I just had to say something. Casinos have been in business for a very long time and one of the things casino owners had to deal with is the prospect of actually winning something. If customers never won anything the place gets a reputation for being rigged. In mmo’s it’s the same way. You have to have a carrot if it’s not gear it’s loot, if it’s not loot it’s currency to buy various things in the in game vendors.

I just logged into another game tonight hadn’t played it in two years, looked in the store and had enough currency for a new faster mount and a new weapon to help me level to max level without even doing anything else yet. This was currencies i had before but they kept in the game so that people could progress in ways without having to grind.

Guess what’ll happen when I’m max level? I’ll have earned enough of the end game currency to gear my character out max (for open world) and possibly buy another mount. That’s how you do non-sub games properly there has to be things that people can achieve relatively well without months or years or real money at every turn.

Right now in another game I’m playing I’m doing their in game gathering using my workers to get enough currency to redo my entire ship full of weapons. That way when they do their major update I’ll be ready with a whole new damage type, and it’s only going to take a month to get everything I need.

It should always be that simple for most goals in these games because they are actually games, not jobs.

IMO the lack of reward is a major result of the lack of vertical progression.

Blue’s, green’s and even yellows (to some extent) are rendered virtually worthless, because of how easy it is to gain max gear.

If they made exotics only drop at the end of a difficult dungeon (and not drop for everyone, every time), and rares only drop throughout difficult content (such as group event chains, dungeons etc), then more people would be wearing blues and greens once they hit 80. They’d have to work to get the higher tiers and every time you run and got a rare (or even a mildly better green) you’d be excited!

The rewards for high level events is laughable . 2 silvers for a 5 minutes events . Crappy greens and blues in chests etc . Try to avoid the one hit kill champion chicken , champion spiders that spawn veteran hatchlings that give no exp, no drops , champion wraiths that kill npcs that you must defend in less than 2 seconds .

Even with selling your drops and moldy bags, you end up making less money per hour in Orr than in CoF .

Too many hours spent tossing rares and exotics into the Mystic Toilet. The lack of actual rewards in this game is more than laughable. It’s downright ridiculous. If I spend half an hour running a dungeon, I want to get more rewards than a few measly dungeon tokens and useless greens/blues. There is literally no point in doing events once you hit level 80 because the events give 2 silver and some experience, which isn’t really needed anymore. I recently got my first exotic. This shouldn’t be surprising except that I’ve played more than 2000 hours, mostly running dungeons and doing meta bosses, but I’ve only gotten one exotic in 2000 hours. That’s unbelievably wrong. And it wasn’t even a good exotic. It sold for 1 gold 40 silver on the TP. In my opinion, exotics should drop AT LEAST every other day. Even every other week would be nice. Anet needs to fix the reward system fast, because I guarantee people will be leaving within the week. Don’t believe me? Look at how many precursor posts there are on the forums. Look at all of the complainers in-game complaining about the Mystic Forge. Usually I don’t condone complaining, but they actually have all the right in the world to complain about the Mystic Forge and the reward system.

Call me shallow but the lack of reward for my efforts is why I finally bit the bullet and left the game. I may return if I hear there’s some drastic improvements but I’ve returned to other games that actually give me something to work towards which for me is more fun than superficial activities designed to herd sheep into time sinks.

Jemmi.6058:

IMO the lack of reward is a major result of the lack of vertical progression.

Blue’s, green’s and even yellows (to some extent) are rendered virtually worthless, because of how easy it is to gain max gear.

If they made exotics only drop at the end of a difficult dungeon (and not drop for everyone, every time), and rares only drop throughout difficult content (such as group event chains, dungeons etc), then more people would be wearing blues and greens once they hit 80. They’d have to work to get the higher tiers and every time you run and got a rare (or even a mildly better green) you’d be excited!

This would apply if it wasn’t for the fact that the lack of exotics is the reason why i would get my butt kicked. Exotics are sooooooo much better than greens and golds that you would lose a fight in WVW due to the simple fact of them having better gear then you. Simple as that.

Would people prefer the traditional loot-based system, where after enduring a really difficult boss fight, only 1 person gets the good item? The reason why in other games, bosses often drop rare items is that no matter how many people pounded on them, there is a limited amount of drops (and subsequently, people tend to be toxic to KS-ers). In gw2, since everybody has their own personal loot, anet obviously cannot hand out a rare each time they kill a champ, coz if so, imagine 50 people killing a champ, that’s instant +50 rares in the game. Items would devalue so fast currency wouldn’t be worth anything, WP costs and armor repairs are laughable, and it’ll mess up with the economy.

If you look at the issue on a personal/enclosed level, then yes, it really isn’t fair or tantamount. But if you look at this issue from different perspectives (i.e. game economy, gamer habits/trends, friendliness of the community, etc), then you understand why killing a champ MUST NOT always give you good loot.