Guild Wars 2

Because, before Anet released Winters Presence, people were begging for a sink for all the worthless wintersday items we had from the previous year (runes/sigils, ugly clothes)

Also, it’s rare for Anet to reevaluate their past decisions even when it’s clear they were made based on assumptions that are no longer true.

In this case, the change was made not recently, but a year ago, when mystic coin cost was much, much lower.

If players are putting items on the TP for sale, they aren’t hoarding. Lol.

The Minor Runes of Snowfall aren’t very expensive; you could promote them.

Or…

Good luck in your new MMO adventures.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

The Minor Runes of Snowfall aren’t very expensive; you could promote them.

you need 6 MC to promote a minor rune to superior.
And 20 MC for each sigil.

Well, Mystic Coins are something one could have saved up over the past six months. Or over the next six months. One can use only the Daily Achievement Gold to purchase them, so that they would be free.

There is no time limit on creating Winter’s Presence. One only incurs a premium cost when one is impatient, no?

Fifth.8169:

Dear Anet,

Why are the runes I need for Winters Presence currently undroppable in the game ? its been over a week and you have not acted. Instead, you allow the hoarders get free gold becuase you anet yes you have messed up.

I do not want to purchase these runes from the TP and feed hoarders my earned gold, while they kick back/relax and watch the thousands of gold roll into their account wallet.

Please make these sigils drop from the events, reward tracks, or jormag or anything. — if not well I have no reason to play this game anymore because its just BS continually feeding my gold to hoarders. Same goes for mystic coins.

I highly doubt, I am the only one that feels this way. the replies to this thread are likely from hoarders of such sigils and other such hoarders.

@ hoarders please leave your api key in the post so I can view your hoarded items and join in ruining the game for everyone.
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1) As Inculpatus cedo pointed out, if someone is selling something then they’re not hoarding it.
2) Just because something like this is in someone’s bank it doesn’t make that person a bad person. That’s just really, really silly.
3) These runes and sigils can be crafted so they are just as obtainable this year as they were last year. You may not like the cost of crafting them but that’s just one of the many costs of Winters Presence.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Mischief
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Snowfall

4) The costs of these items on the trading post is a lot cheaper than the cost of crafting them. You should be thanking the “hoarders” for selling them rather than complaining about them.

Fifth.8169:

I do not want to purchase these runes from the TP and feed hoarders my earned gold, while they kick back/relax and watch the thousands of gold roll into their account wallet.

You can make them yourself using your huge piles of mystic coins.

Fifth.8169:

Im guessing your one such hoarder. 30,000 units of said item are bought within the first 24 hours of wintersday release leaving barely 200 units for sale. Items ARE HOARDED until buy orders reach an all time high. At this point HOARDER begins to slowly release unit of said item back into the marker for huge profit.

HOARDER effectively flips market securing thousands of gold for themselves. Item is no longer farmable as a result of it not dropping from mobs and its components mystic coins is not farmable. HOARDER effectively capitalizes on market.

Stop trying to make me sound like the bad person when gold thirsty people (possible you) are making this game toxic.

That is not a hoarder. Hoarders would never sell any of their stuff.

While I completely disagree with the hoarding opinion of the OP, I do completely agree this is ridiculous that anet has not done something, not even made a comment on why nothing has either changed on how to craft them or put them back in as drops.

If they had a clear reason why they haven’t done anything, why would you hide that from the people? The first 24hr’s should have been an indication that this was an oversight from the TP graph as evidence and even if anet needed time to sort out the best way to fix it (while I personally think it’s an easy fix in theory you never know) why not come out and say they know about it and see this as a problem and it’ll just be a bit before they do something to correct this. Leaving us in the dark is the worst thing aside from not actually doing anything to correct what seems to a lot of people a big oversight on one of the very few big wintersday achievements to go after.

Fifth.8169:

@ hoarders please leave your api key in the post so I can view your hoarded items and join in ruining the game for everyone.

[Prior information now redacted]

:y why would anyone tell you what they’re hoarding and for what purpose?

Edit: Someone appears to have offloaded on the 19th.

Fifth.8169:

Im guessing your one such hoarder. 30,000 units of said item are bought within the first 24 hours of wintersday release leaving barely 200 units for sale. Items ARE HOARDED until buy orders reach an all time high. At this point HOARDER begins to slowly release unit of said item back into the marker for huge profit.

HOARDER effectively flips market securing thousands of gold for themselves. Item is no longer farmable as a result of it not dropping from mobs and its components mystic coins is not farmable. HOARDER effectively capitalizes on market.

Stop trying to make me sound like the bad person when gold thirsty people (possible you) are making this game toxic.

Nope, I don’t have a single one of these Runes or Sigils, I don’t think I ever did.

I’m not trying to make you sound like a bad person just pointing out that you’re not making a lot of sense.

If these supposed Hoarders were truly hoarding these Runes/Sigils/whatever, then they wouldn’t be selling them at all…
The Drama is /strong/ with this one…

There’s a difference between hoarders (who effectively hold on to items for personal use/gratification) and merchants (who make decisions using the market to profit.)

And neither of these types of people make the community toxic.
The people that make the community toxic are the people that feel they are entitled to dictate the prices in a free market, when all they are entitled to is the freedom to not use it if they so choose.

OP is attempting to criminalize/shame people clever enough/lucky enough to stockpile an item that he now has personal want of, because they are selling them at a price he is not willing to pay.

OMG, people are buying items people want, only to turn a profit? How dare they. This kind of thing would never happen in any other MMO with a player to player market, and certainly never in real life. It’s almost like people don’t care what others have to pay because said buyer didn’t have the foresight to see this kind of thing happens, like clockwork, every time an event like this comes up.

On a non sarcastic note, how is you wanting the items any different than anyone else wanting the same item? You want to use them for your own ends, we’ll guess what, so do the people “hoarding” them to sell for more. No difference at all. Maybe next year, you try being the one to buy up all needed mats and stop crying because things don’t happen just as you like.

Fifth.8169:

Khisanth.2948:

That is not a hoarder. Hoarders would never sell any of their stuff.

Stop derailing. HOARDER or TP FLIPPER is synonymous.

so why didnt you buy the runes and sigils when the hoarders/flippers did, for the same price they paid?

Khisanth.2948:

That is not a hoarder. Hoarders would never sell any of their stuff.

Fifth.8169:

Stop derailing. HOARDER or TP FLIPPER is synonymous.

It’s hard to take your complaint seriously when you say something like this. You distract attention from the main point, which is that regardless of the market, ANet seemingly did not introduce seasonal sources for the the runes & sigils independent of forging, which requires mystic coins, an already high-demand item. It’s reasonable to ask ANet to address that, without inventing theories.

• Hoarding means to hang on to things, whether of little or great value; hoarders do not sell.
• Flipping is the act of buying something at the lowest possible price and immediately relisting it at a high enough price to generate a profit. Flipping can only happen when sellers undervalue their items and buyers overvalue them. It is among the least risky profit-making strategies around.

You seem to be confusing both ideas with speculating, which is the purchase of items (at whatever price) with the hope that you can resell them later at a higher one. It is the most risky profit-making strategy.

Worse, you also seem to be confusing the requirements for Winter’s Presence: the elements that require the rune/sigil do not need to be completed during Wintersday; they can be done at any time during the year. And based on every other seasonal item, they are likely to drop dramatically in price (although surely not as much as they did during the past year, when prices went from a gold or more to 10 silver or less).

Clearly, though, people would like to complete the collection in time to show off the aura. And less clearly, it’s unusual that there are no new sources for the sigils & runes. It’s perfectly fine to ask ANet to address the question of sources without making wild claims about the motivations of people buying or selling the upgrade items.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Well, Mystic Coins are something one could have saved up over the past six months. Or over the next six months. One can use only the Daily Achievement Gold to purchase them, so that they would be free.

There is no time limit on creating Winter’s Presence. One only incurs a premium cost when one is impatient, no?

• You need 50 MC to create the Obsidian Crystal for the collection
• 50 MC and 50 Sup sigils of Mischief for the essence of Mischief
• 50 MC and 50 sup runes of snowfall for essence of Snowfall

At 6 MC needed to promote minor runes of snowfall to sup runes of Snowfall each, that would be 300 MC just for the runes of Snowfall. So if you already had all of the sigils, you would still need 450 MC for the rest of it.

Yes, you can totally obtain those by saving up the trickle you are handed in 6 months…..

What about if you didn’t have the sigils either? Since it requires 20 MC to upgrade minor sigils into sup sigils of Mischief, this would require an additional 1,000 MC just to acquire these 50 sigils.

That’s 1,450 MC needed to create Winter’s Pressence. That’s enough to create almost 6 core legendaries, almost 3 HoT legendaries assuming you have 0 clovers ahead of time. You think this is an ok amount for a non legendary item? Its absolutely ridiculous, and even if you hadn’t spend a single MC generated over the course of playing this game you still wouldn’t have enough from login rewards/old daily/monthly system to acquire this.

<—-is totally a hoarder.

I hang on to as many items as I can. I could have a lot of gold if I decided to completely sell off everything I could, but I’d rather hang on to those items to the point where it bothers me to use expensive items to create things. I even have my material storage maxed to 2k units.

Winter’s Presence? Yeah, I’ll pass and keep my hoard as full as possible this Wintersday.

Endless Soul.5178:

Winter’s Presence? Yeah, I’ll pass and keep my hoard as full as possible this Wintersday.

Wowwww.

How about you stop being such a hoarder and let me flip you some sigils
You’re ruining the economy

I did everything for Winter’s Presence last year, with the exception of the drinks. The runes and sigils dropped from gifts and could be bought for a dime a dozen.

This year, making Winter’s Presence is more expensive by an obscene amount. Not my problem, but quite ridiculous.

Manasa Devi.7958:

I did everything for Winter’s Presence last year, with the exception of the drinks. The runes and sigils dropped from gifts and could be bought for a dime a dozen.

This year, making Winter’s Presence is more expensive by an obscene amount. Not my problem, but quite ridiculous.

Makes the skin more prestigious. Not that I like it or anything.

Lahmia.2193:

Makes the skin more prestigious.

Nah. Merely more costly.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Makes the skin more prestigious. Not that I like it or anything.

You bring an interesting topic. I will disagree that it’s not more prestigious but only because for the fact they had the currency (the sigils) implemented one way for one year then changed it drastically the next. I think if they had started out with it like this year as is, I personally wouldn’t have much of a complaint. I would look it and just see it as something of high gold value to go for and dismiss it. Not saying it as a bad thing at all, it would have been good for the people who wanted to go after it and the rest could just not worry about it. But you drastically change how to get an item and it’s AP achievement from one year to the next and not even say anything about reasoning. Something just seems really off putting about that.

I don’t see why this is a re-occuring issue with this game. Since day 1 there have been items that people want that are obscenely expensive to craft because of an expensive material. This situation isn’t exceptional and I see no reason for Anet to do anything about it because it’s clearly not a mistake.

If you want something exceptional like this, you need to do something exceptional to get it. Not a new concept in this game.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t see why this is a re-occuring issue with this game. Since day 1 there have been items that people want that are obscenely expensive to craft because of an expensive material. This situation isn’t exceptional and I see no reason for Anet to do anything about it because it’s clearly not a mistake.

If you want something exceptional like this, you need to do something exceptional to get it. Not a new concept in this game.

They droped like candy last year why should we not think they would do so this year aswell?

As someone who hasn’t been involved in wintersday since 2012, I’m sorta at the mercy of the market since they don’t drop at all. :X
Why is something that you can only get via the market (or through upgrade shenanigans) a part of this, and in such great amounts?

pholtos.9751:

Why is something that you can only get via the market (or through upgrade shenanigans) a part of this, and in such great amounts?

The game was designed around using the trading post. Personal loot means everyone gets a little bit of everything, so you’re not intended to farm everything yourself. The sigil for example, everyone can get one every 5 days by doing the dailies, but how many people actually need them? The same goes for mystic coins – most people don’t use them, and that’s why ArenaNet didn’t want to intervene, because the only problem is that people aren’t selling.

Upgrading is done to give value to lesser materials.

This type of item, cosmetic effects, are intended to be expensive, like 1000g+, which is nothing to veteran players. Unless I missed something, going by the wiki, the skin currently costs ~780g, which is cheaper than last year’s 800~1000g. 10k drinks is less than half the cost of last year.

Healix.5819:

pholtos.9751:

Why is something that you can only get via the market (or through upgrade shenanigans) a part of this, and in such great amounts?

The game was designed around using the trading post. Personal loot means everyone gets a little bit of everything, so you’re not intended to farm everything yourself. The sigil for example, everyone can get one every 5 days by doing the dailies, but how many people actually need them? The same goes for mystic coins – most people don’t use them, and that’s why ArenaNet didn’t want to intervene, because the only problem is that people aren’t selling.

Upgrading is done to give value to lesser materials.

This type of item, cosmetic effects, are intended to be expensive, like 1000g+, which is nothing to veteran players. Unless I missed something, going by the wiki, the skin currently costs ~780g, which is cheaper than last year’s 800~1000g. 10k drinks is less than half the cost of last year.

how does everybody get one sigil every 5 days through dailies?

Your argument that upgrading is done to give lesser materials more value is generally right but not in this case, as the lesser material, minor sigils and runes (even though tradable) can be purchased from a vendor.

I agree that cosmetic effects like winters presence should have a high price tag in general and should utilize MCs in higher amounts but WPs design is a bit over the top.
As mentioned, you already need 150 MC anyways, even if you disregard the runes and sigils. Thats a good amount imho, old legendaries need around 231 MC, new ones 481, unique MF weapons need between 10-100, Nightfury 250.
The crafting cost of WP are just so low atm (compared ot last year) because people are trading the runes ad sigils way under forging value. If you recalculate WP costs using superior runes and sigils upgraded from minor ones, you end up with 1650g (plus and extra 650k karma), which is in my opinion a little bit over the top, even for a fluff skin.

But even if we would agree that the crafting costs for WP would be fine, once players have to upgrade the runes and sigils themselves because the price on tp adjusted to their forging costs, its not the only purpose of these runes.

You also need one sigil to finish the small orphan questline to obtain the star of gratitude. So new players, who havent done this in the years before, will find out on the 3rd day of the questline that they will need 20 MC to upgrade a sigil to give to sous chef seymur. Having to grind a month of login rewards to obtain these coins cant be intended design.

However, if you are right and people obtain a sigil for finishing 5 wintersday dailies, you can disregard my last argument. But I have the suspicion that you might mix it up with the sigil of generosity.

Wanze.8410:

You also need one sigil to finish the small orphan questline to obtain the star of gratitude. So new players, who havent done this in the years before, will find out on the 3rd day of the questline that they will need 20 MC to upgrade a sigil to give to sous chef seymur. Having to grind a month of login rewards to obtain these coins cant be intended design.

When it comes to making it yourself, that hasn’t changed. You’re not actually meant to do that however, as the recipe was only an alternative, designed as a sink at the time which I’m sure will never be adjusted. When the supply of sigils starts to dry, you can bet they will be brought back in. Even if it was 25g for that 1 sigil though, or a month of simply logging in, eaters are a luxury item and you have all year to prepare. Every casual I know has a stack of coins in their bank for example, left forgotten.

As for the 5 days, yes, I mixed up the two as I heard it somewhere else. If ArenaNet wanted another method though, this would have been a clear choice.

Healix.5819:

Wanze.8410:

You also need one sigil to finish the small orphan questline to obtain the star of gratitude. So new players, who havent done this in the years before, will find out on the 3rd day of the questline that they will need 20 MC to upgrade a sigil to give to sous chef seymur. Having to grind a month of login rewards to obtain these coins cant be intended design.

When it comes to making it yourself, that hasn’t changed. You’re not actually meant to do that however, as the recipe was only an alternative, designed as a sink at the time which I’m sure will never be adjusted. When the supply of sigils starts to dry, you can bet they will be brought back in. Even if it was 25g for that 1 sigil though, or a month of simply logging in, eaters are a luxury item and you have all year to prepare. Every casual I know has a stack of coins in their bank for example, left forgotten.

As for the 5 days, yes, I mixed up the two as I heard it somewhere else. If ArenaNet wanted another method though, this would have been a clear choice.

Players that just purchaed the game dont have the luxury of sitting on stacks of coins.
Personally, I profited a great deal from the rising prices for the runes and sigils, as I bought like 50-60k each a year ago for under 1s. But that doesnt change my opinion that the aquisition of those runes and sigils should have been reviewed and changed this year for the benefit of the mayority of the player base.

The fact that they arent obtainable anymore except the upgrade recipe for the forge makes it easier for traders like me to keep the price up on the tp, which is good for me but not so good for many other players.
If Anet would have introduced the runes and sigils as a drop from gifts, I would reckon that the price would have crashed soon after the patch. So I agree, adding them as a reward for finishing the 5 wintersday dailies would have been a great way to keep that market in check. As a trader, I only checked, if they drop from wintersday gifts. I completely disregarded the possibility of them dropping from something like meta rewards, which only add supply a couple of das after the patch, so I would have been caught off guard.

Another option might have been adding them back to the wintersday reward tracks.

In game terms hoarding would be holding onto items with the intent on waiting for the market value of them to rise.

That person with the 5 characters full of mystic coins must be laughing as the prices all go up. When I saw the screenshot of that jaw just dropped.

Healix.5819:

pholtos.9751:

Why is something that you can only get via the market (or through upgrade shenanigans) a part of this, and in such great amounts?

The game was designed around using the trading post.

On he contrary, in this case, both the wintersday Orphan’s questline and the Winter Presence were designed around those sigils/runes being easily available. Or at least i assume they were – it’d have been stupid to design them according to conditions that did not exist at that time.
Since then, those conditions changed, but the event and the item recipe did not.

You may think that it’s a part of some greater plan, but as i see it, this was for all the usual Anet reasons – they simply forgot about it.
Wasn’t the first time, won’t be the last.

I remember selling those runes to the merch last year in masses since they were useless. I am not sure what’s sadder: the change anet made to keep players longer online (although the outrage was huge cuz 10k drinks) or the players who are willing to sacrifice tons of money and time to have some stupid snowflakes falling around you. I mean wtf!?

ProtoGunner.4953:

I remember selling those runes to the merch last year in masses since they were useless. I am not sure what’s sadder: the change anet made to keep players longer online (although the outrage was huge cuz 10k drinks) or the players who are willing to sacrifice tons of money and time to have some stupid snowflakes falling around you. I mean wtf!?

Shh. Auras are new shinies and they are prime sources of speculation profit.
Don’t ruin it

Superior rune of snowfall is 1.39g on TP.
Superior sigil of mischief is 3g on TP.

I don’t get why is this problem to buy?

Fifth.8169:

Dear Anet,

Why are the runes I need for Winters Presence currently undroppable in the game ? its been over a week and you have not acted. Instead, you allow the hoarders get free gold becuase you anet yes you have messed up.

I do not want to purchase these runes from the TP and feed hoarders my earned gold, while they kick back/relax and watch the thousands of gold roll into their account wallet.

Please make these sigils drop from the events, reward tracks, or jormag or anything. — if not well I have no reason to play this game anymore because its just BS continually feeding my gold to hoarders. Same goes for mystic coins.

I highly doubt, I am the only one that feels this way. the replies to this thread are likely from hoarders of such sigils and other such hoarders.

@ hoarders please leave your api key in the post so I can view your hoarded items and join in ruining the game for everyone.
=======

So what?

Rod.6581:

Superior rune of snowfall is 1.39g on TP.
Superior sigil of mischief is 3g on TP.

I don’t get why is this problem to buy?

You need 50 of both