Guild Wars 2

Theory: Scarlet’s goal is to kill Mordremoth, and its spawn, the Pale Tree in order to free the Sylvari from predetermined destinies.

This is a large claim that requires a lot of support. My goal with this post is to go step-by-step through material related to Scarlet and show convincingly that every element of the living story arc supports this conclusion.

Plausibility pre-living story:
First, let’s take Scarlet out of the equation. Before the living story arc, what do we know about the Pale Tree?

• The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree
To quote: “_The seed which sprouted the Pale Tree was found in a cave containing many others like it, guarded by powerful plant creatures. Over 250 years ago, Ronan, a Shining Blade warrior, took one of these seeds and placed it on the graves of his family, located in what was once Arbor Bay, who were killed by the mursaat._”
We know nothing about these seeds or the creature who guarded them, but it stands to reason that an unknown, powerful plant-creature could have been one of Mordremoth’s early champions. The time-lines align very well for this theory, and we know about as little about Mordremoth as we do about the other trees. It stands to follow that these seeds could very easily be created by Mordremoth;.

• Sylvari do not reproduce.
o Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Another-lesbian-relationship/first#post3488514 (Thanks to Erukk.1408 for finding this.)
One of the things that we know about all of the dragon minions thus-far is that its minions to not breed in the normal sense. Most dragons corrupt already existing creatures (destroyers, undead, branded, etc.), but those minions do not reproduce after this. The only kind of reproduction that we know of comes from destroyers, as evidenced in the Skritt-arc in the living story: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Hatchery. Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.

• There are corrupt versions of Sylvari.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare_Court
Nightmare Court are Sylvari that turn away from the Pale Tree’s dream. By turning away from the Dream, Sylvari “are forced to commit dreadful acts that destroy every last ounce of virtue they may have left.” What’s important here is that it is NOT necessarily a conscious choice of the Sylvari to become evil, but rather a natural progression from the Dream to the Nightmare. If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.

• The dragon from the Sylvari’s opening instance does not resemble Zhaitan or his champions.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Dragon
As you can see, this dragon is much closer to a ‘jungle dragon’ than an undead dragon. The Pale Tree attributes this to your Wyld Hunt to defeat Zhaitan, but it is certainly not clear that it saw your dream- you still need to explain what you saw when you awaken, and the player character isn’t particularly descriptive (and understandably so, since they are extremely confused). This is an easy mistake for the Pale Tree to make, especially if the Pale Tree does not know of its own connection to Mordremoth.

The Living Story: What Scarlet Saw
If nothing else, we have proved that this theory is plausible based upon the pre-existing lore before the living story and Scarlet’s emergence.

• The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.
o Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/
The worst thing that we could do while trying to figure out Scarlet’s intentions is to forget her back story. No matter how botched the delivery was, even the most basic story-telling paradigms require consistency: Major themes and ideas introduced in a narrative do not vanish until resolved. The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life. She fled the Pale Tree’s goals for her, and tried to block this from her mind, searching instead for the cold truths of Asuran science- a stark contrast from the Pale Tree’s dream. Read closely the Pale Tree’s plea to Scarlet: “_Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.” The Pale Tree is trying to intervene to prevent Scarlet from learning something, something that Society isn’t ready for. Scarlet goes deeper and sees that she can be “dangerous” to the tree, and she relishes this, going deeper into the vision. When she emerges, she says “So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design. But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to._” Interpret this in the context of the theory, and we can deduce that Scarlet has seen the Sylvari’s connection to Mordremoth, and that the Pale Tree, and the Nightmare Court all in the end connect the Sylvari to Mordremoth. She seeks to sever those connections and free herself and her kin from that yoke. She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.

• The themes of Scarlet’s alliances thus far are Fire, Earth, Poison, and Machinery.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thaumanova_Reactor_Fractal (Also see: Molten Alliance, Aetherblades, and Toxic Alliance.)
If we assume that this narrative makes sense, then each of these alliances serves some purpose in Scarlet’s ultimate goal. To accomplish to goal of destroying the Pale Tree and eventually Mordremoth, Scarlet needs power and a plan. The alliances themselves were not Scarlet’s ultimate goal, but rather their technology and specific expertise. The Molten Alliance provide knowledge of the earth, which allows her to track and follow the ley-lines and the dragon energy that flows through them; it also provides quite a bit in the pyrotechnic end of things- something VERY useful in destroying anything plant related (dragon or otherwise). The Toxic Alliance was Scarlet’s foray into learning about poisons from the Krait and Nightmare Court- both of whom practice intensely venomous types of magic: magic that can be used to taint the ley-lines and weaken the dragons (and possibly the Pale Tree) who draw upon them. The Aetherblades are more important to Scarlet in that they provide her the means to do many of her operations- airships specifically are invaluable when you want to be in ten places at once. All of these themes tie back to Mordremoth (poison, earth), the Pale Tree (fire, earth), and her own story (machinery).

The Developers, the Hype, and What We Know So Far:
Clues toward where the living story is heading have been dropped all over the forums, and unfortunately I lack links for many of these. I will leave a place for sources if anyone would be kind enough to provide links (credit will be 100% given.)

• A Dragon is coming during the next season of the living story, and this story is leading into the next story arc.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_dragon (Link to the Dev. Posts/interviews to be added.)
Assuming that Zhaitan is dead, we have five dragons remaining: Krallkatorrik, Jormag, Primordus, the Sea Dragon (Bubbles), and the Jungle Dragon (Mordremoth). Krallkatorrik was last seen in the Crystal Desert after its fight with Destiny’s Edge, where it went to recover. It is believed to be preoccupied with Palawa Joko and Elona at this time, so it seems unlikely that he would be the next dragon. Jormag seems thematically to be least likely to fit with Scarlet. Bubbles is as of yet unknown in most regard, but it is widely believed that it is terrorizing the oceanic races of the world, and is thusly preoccupied; like Jormag, it does not seem to be thematically connected to Scarlet. Primordus has been widely speculated to be the next dragon due to the thumpers and references to fire in the poem on the metronome (more on the metronome later). This is a decent connection, but Primordus’s story is already widely known, and it thematically connects more with Dwarves and Asura than with Sylvari and Scarlet. Mordremoth is even less known than Bubbles, as the only in-game references come from Crucible of Eternity’s Experimental Lab Green, and it would make sense to introduce him sooner rather than later. Also, one cannot deny the obvious thematic connection between the jungle and the Sylvari.

• The Metronome has many key phrases hinting toward the Pale Tree and Mordremoth.
o Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/08/arenanet-hints-at-next-gw2-update-with-meatspace-metronome/
“Thump, Thump. Time to jump. (1)
Wipe all resistance from your mind (2)
There’s a secret deep below to find (3)
If you’d only seen the things I’ve seen (4)
You’d wake up screaming from The Dream (5)
This next part will sting, but it brings me joy (6)
Sometimes to change you must destroy (7)
A fire is rising you cannot contain (8)
Tyria will burn, while I remain.” (9)

Lines 4, 5, and 7 are the most obvious hints toward the Pale Tree. Lines 4 and 5 directly reference the dream and her vision: something within The Dream is down-right frightening to Scarlet, and (she thinks) to us too. The Tree’s origin being Mordremoth fits this to a tee. Line 7 references her desire to free (change) the Sylvari through destruction. What could she destroy? The Pale Tree (and eventually Mordremoth himself). Line 3 and 8 seem to rarely be paired, but the connection between fire rising and a secret underneath are hard to ignore. This is commonly taken to be a sign of Primordus, but it more likely refers to Scarlet’s plan since that seems to be more in line with the theme of the poem (lines 2, 6, 7, and 9 all point toward something that she is about to do.)

• Something BIG is coming. Something that will change Tyria permanently.
o Sources: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0perHo0Tkk
This is obviously meant to build hype- there is no denying that, but there are still clues to glean from this interview and the video. Most clearly, we know that whatever the change is, it is permanent, and it is on a large scale. We already know that Scarlet intends to destroy something, and the video shows a broken Asura gate in Lion’s Arch. I believe that this is misdirection. Look at the angle of the camera and the height of the gate/angle of the ramp at the end of the video: this appears to be the gate to the Grove. If anything, we should expect Scarlet to sabotage the gate so that reinforcements cannot make it to the Grove to defend the Pale Tree as quickly. Imagine what follows: the Pale Tree is destroyed, and the Sylvari are left soundless and homeless. The impact is certainly large enough to live up to the hype, and it is exactly what Scarlet desires according to her back story.

What should we expect?
There are four remaining living world updates, and here is my speculation of how they will play out. (This obviously isn’t an exact science, but it should give a rough outline.)
1. This update Scarlet tests her Watchwork giant, and the thumpers draw up a big ‘ol worm. We know this already. The title is “Origins of Madness” so expect to see some investigation into Omadd’s lab from her original story along with more information on Omadd’s research and the nature of their delving into the Eternal Alchemy.
2. Scarlet stops messing around and attacks Lion’s Arch with the Clockwork Giant. This attack will be underwhelming, but spectacular because it is a feint meant to draw attention away from the Grove and toward Lion’s Arch, where many of the portals will be damaged, specifically the Grove’s.
3. A revelation occurs where we learn that Scarlet’s real target is the Grove, but it is difficult to gain support in defending it for much the same reason that we could not get support to Claw Island in the personal story: People either don’t believe you or there is not enough time before the attack occurs. With the Asura Gates down, mobilizing an army is too timely and costly for a hunch.
4. Scarlet attacks the Grove, and the players take part in the defense. Because Scarlet has been poisoning the ley-lines that the Pale Tree feeds off of, the Tree is weakened, and cannot defend itself as it should be able to. Ultimately, the defenses are overwhelmed, Scarlet burns the Pale Tree to the ground. The Sylvari are left devastated, soundless, and homeless. Sylvari are either no longer able to be created or their personal story is now an instanced version of Scarlet’s attack on the Pale Tree where Caithe, Trahearne, and some others lead the newest awakened Sylvari to safety. Mordremoth may or may not awaken, but at the very least Scarlet reveals its existence and the Tree’s connection to it.

The Distant Future: A new Pale Tree seed is left after the destruction, and the next arc of the Living Story centers around the germination of a new Pale Tree in the newly-cleansed Orr. This will serve as the new Sylvari starting area.

Special thanks to TheNinjaCupcake for working out these ideas with me and helping me to connect the dots. I cannot thank her enough for her contributions!

Also, sorry for the major wall of text! Hopefully this sparks some great discussion!

So.. why not use all the forces to attack the tree instead of random areas wasting troops resources? Why attack the humans and norn? if so skilled at alliance building why not turn the other races agains the pale tree + sylvari, surely an easier task than allying various xenophobic factions together.

Hey, the theory says nothing about Scarlet being smart. :P Besides, I doubt it would be as easy to turn other races, like the Skritt, the Hylek, or even major races like the Charr or Humans, all of which have their own problems and concerns, against a force that almost everyone assumes is benevolent. The dredge want to claim the Shiverpeaks for themselves—why not give them a “show of faith” and get them on her side? The Nightmare Court is definitely against the Pale Tree, and the krait are always looking to claim some territory given that Bubbles stole theirs from them. I think the point was to pull together an alliance of people, as Crespus said, who have the technology she wants. Plus, she could exploit their own goals by attacking their enemies for them and making friends.

I’ve actually been thinking about something along these lines myself, so its great to see I’m not alone :P

Something that we haven’t really considered yet is some of the additional clues we’ve been given (not sure if these have been brought up yet).

As we saw with Primordus, the champions of the dragons are not always draconic in nature (like Teq, Jor, and Shat). Prim had a destroyer as his champion. Could Mordremoth not have a Wurm – perhaps the one that Scarlet has woken with her thumpers that’s coming in the next update?

Also, I would wager that since we’re getting an Asura in the next update, and the images of Asura Gates in the video (notice the lighting in the shot is identical to what we see in Rata Sum), there’s a plausible chance that we’ll perhaps get to explore some new areas of the Maguuma Jungle (The Falls? Ettin’s Back?), further supporting some of the stuff you pointed out about the Pale Tree and its origins.

Things like this make me really sad that I haven’t kept up on the LS stuff. Whichever way things go, this sounds fascinating to me; villains-who-think-they’re-trying-to-do-the-right-thing are my favorite archetype.

Not sure if this belongs here but a “clue” or a fact that everyone seems to ignore so far is that (if I remember right) a anet dev said that the stronger Teq had something to do with the living story as well!?

Unfortunately, the “Pale Tree = Dragon Minion” theory has been torn to shreds by the Lore forum. At any given time, you can probably find five or six threads there taking turns digging up its corpse to kick it again.

Which is probably why you chose to post it here, where people were less likely to know.

I have to say that I disagree with your hypothesis and resolution based on mechanical limitations. For the destruction of the Pale Tree to pass, ANet would have to:

• Rewrite the entire Sylvari personal story line:
Even if they temporarily disabled the creation of new Sylvari characters, they would need a contingency plan for existing Sylvari that have not advanced the personal story. I doubt they would simply disable the personal story and prevent progression for these characters, so a rewrite would be necessary.

• Rewrite all personal story steps involving the Pale Tree:
See above. If the Pale Tree is destroyed, they need to introduce new story mechanics for the parts of the post-Claw island story involving the Pale Tree, which also means finding a new way to bring Trehearne into the mix.

• Move the Sylvari starting zone:
For all of the flak GW2 has taken over temporary content and/or removal of content, would you really expect them to remove creation of one of the five playable races, even temporarily? I would not. Even if it is groundbreaking in terms of a truly Living World, I don’t think the general MMO populace is ready for that type of mechanic.

The Distant Future: A Cleansed Orr:
The prospect of a cleansed Orr comes with two outcomes:
1) invalidating the entire post-Claw island personal story or
2) instancing / phasing undead Orr so that players can complete the personal story.

The first exhibits the problem mentioned above regarding temporary content. While I think that type of grand-scale world metamorphosis could be awesome, I question whether the MMO populace would accept the loss of all of the current content associated with undead Orr and the personal story. It would also entail either a complete re-write of the post-Claw island personal story or a complete scrapping of the personal story initiative.

For the second option, the issue becomes that fact that it splits the player base. For example, can anyone go into cleansed Orr or do you need to complete the personal story first? Can those who have completed the personal story return to undead Orr? Would people even try to complete the personal story if they had to essentially solo Orr?

(Personally, I would like to see ANet develop a cleansed Orr, but the ramifications are difficult to manage, to say the least).

Also, as a side note: Would your hypothesis mean that approximately 16% of player characters are dragon minions? It would be a cool concept to develop, but it feels way out of place for the chummy chummy world that is GW2 PvE.

Now, regarding the lore portion of your theory: I think I can reconcile it with the mechanical limitations above. We already know that Scarlet did not see what she thought she saw (paraphrased dev. quote, too lazy to look for source). I would amend your hypothesis as follows:

In the “Eternal Alchemy” Scarlet was influenced by the jungle dragon (or some other essence) to believe the Pale Tree is evil. Scarlet believes everything you said above, but is incorrect. She attacks the Pale Tree, but our plucky heroes stop her just in time (thus not requiring the massive mechanical rework implied by successfully offing the Pale Tree).

I wish they actually had a story like that planned out.

Its painfully obvious that they are making up this crappy character’s plotline as it goes.

I hope this is the case. That would actually make Scarlet interesting.

Resk.6412:

I’ve actually been thinking about something along these lines myself, so its great to see I’m not alone :P

Something that we haven’t really considered yet is some of the additional clues we’ve been given (not sure if these have been brought up yet).

As we saw with Primordus, the champions of the dragons are not always draconic in nature (like Teq, Jor, and Shat). Prim had a destroyer as his champion. Could Mordremoth not have a Wurm – perhaps the one that Scarlet has woken with her thumpers that’s coming in the next update?

Also, I would wager that since we’re getting an Asura in the next update, and the images of Asura Gates in the video (notice the lighting in the shot is identical to what we see in Rata Sum), there’s a plausible chance that we’ll perhaps get to explore some new areas of the Maguuma Jungle (The Falls? Ettin’s Back?), further supporting some of the stuff you pointed out about the Pale Tree and its origins.

I absolutely agree that this would mean we’d be exploring farther into Maguuma and finding out more about the area and the other Trees/Sylvari. I worry that it will be a grim exploration, and most/all Sylvari that we find will be under the control of Mordremoth. It would not surprise me to see heavy Asuran involvement, given their proximity and their involvement with Scarlet.

BondageBill.4021:

I have to say that I disagree with your hypothesis and resolution based on mechanical limitations. For the destruction of the Pale Tree to pass, ANet would have to:
Clipped for post length

These limitations worried me at first, but I believe that there are ways around them. First, I think that in order to have a truly “living story” ANet is going to have to sequence or separate the stories, meaning that in order to access the second arc, you will need to complete the first arc (or you start in the second arc, and have to manually choose to “phase into” the first arc. This would mean that certain zones would have two instances- one from the Zhaitan arc, and one from the Mordremoth Arc. This would only affect a handful of zones (Orr, Caledon Forest, and maybe Metrica Province and Brisban as well), but it is important if people are to play old story content without ruining the immersion of the new story. You say that this would divide the player-base, but it shouldn’t do this any more than new zones would. With this we are essentially just adding a some new zones with completely different content, tuned for end-game play.

This would solve most of the problems that you listed, but I think you also misunderstood one element of the theory: I don’t mean to say that the Pale Tree is following orders or necessarily influenced by Mordremoth, rather, I’d be of the belief that somehow Mordremoth’s corruption has already been broken. I’m not sure of how this has happened as of yet, but possibilities that stand out include Centaur shamanism (Ventari was involved in the planting of the Pale Tree and heavily influenced its development) or perhaps intervention by the Forgotten. (This follows along the same line as their intervention with Glint.) The mistake in Scarlet’s vision is that she did not see the irony that the Pale Tree has broken away from Mordremoth in much the same way that Scarlet wishes to break the Sylvari away from the Pale Tree.

I worry that under your counter-theory, we would not have the kind of permanent impact that we have very clearly been promised, and that the living world would stagnate.

Melchior.2135:

Unfortunately, the “Pale Tree = Dragon Minion” theory has been torn to shreds by the Lore forum. At any given time, you can probably find five or six threads there taking turns digging up its corpse to kick it again.

Which is probably why you chose to post it here, where people were less likely to know.

Can you please link a relevant thread? I don’t frequent the lore forums too much, and the reason that I posted this here is because it ties heavily into lore, the living story, and the game mechanics that would be needed to support it. With that said, I have seen one or two topics of this nature float by, and I don’t think I’ve seen a convincing argument for why this couldn’t be the case.

After that, all sylvari players become corrupted, promoted to ‘champion’-level and targets for other players. Their stuff + bank can be looted. ANET loses 1/5th of their player base but makes a buzz for largest manhunt (well, sylarihunt) in MMO history.

Fun theory, but it would never happen. If it did, it would leave boundless players upset and angry that an entire race has been cut off from character creation.

This would be really cool if it happened, but it never will. When Anet says things like “change the world forever” they knock down a lighthouse, they don’t alter a whole region/race/starting zone/personal story.

>>>>>>> Best Thread Ever <<<<<<<

With regards to the above notes that major Sylvari re-writes would be necessary, I don’t really see that to be the case.

As we’ve hypothesized, there are multiple seeds – one of which created the Pale Tree to begin with. Whose to say that the existing Pale Tree in the Grove has broken most if not all of Mordremoth’s corruption? THIS Pale Tree might not be Scarlet’s target – perhaps another seed has sprouted, and Scarlet intends to destroy that one? Or, perhaps destroying the Pale Tree was never her intention at all?

As for the Sylvari storylines with the Pale Tree, all the story content is pre-Zhaitan’s destruction, so none of that needs to be rewritten.

If the Pale Tree is not destroyed, then all the potential fallback from that is eliminated, while keeping all our theories with Moredremoth intact. And we will see the fallout in the “change the world forever” fashion that ANet have suggested – we’ll have potential new areas of the Maguuma jungle to explore, and perhaps Brisban, Caledon, and Metrica will go the route of Kessex Hills.

Darnacus.5961:

After that, all sylvari players become corrupted, promoted to ‘champion’-level and targets for other players. Their stuff + bank can be looted. ANET loses 1/5th of their player base but makes a buzz for largest manhunt (well, sylarihunt) in MMO history.

Sounds like someone is upset that he missed out on the creative pills when they were being handed out. :P

To go off of other theories that actually derive from the context of the OP:
My idea about the end result of this theory is that if the Pale Tree doesn’t get saved from Scarlet’s attack that there will be a “closing ceremony” kind of thing where we escort Trahearne to wherever the other seeds are, and see him plant a new Pale Tree. This way, the Sylvari can continue as normal to a point. But maybe the Pale Tree, even though it might grow almost instantaneously, doesn’t possess the knowledge of its predecessor, leaving the Sylvari still soundless to an extent—being forced to “mother” their own mother. I’m not too well-versed on the lore, so this theory may not fit with it, but I still think it’s still nice to entertain the idea that all this Scarlet nonsense was worth something.

The more you discuss about Scarlet, the more ms. McCoy will get the idea that her storyline is actually interesting and you will see more of this hated Scarlet.

The pale tree is a baby dragon?

Crespus.7405:

Melchior.2135:

Unfortunately, the “Pale Tree = Dragon Minion” theory has been torn to shreds by the Lore forum. At any given time, you can probably find five or six threads there taking turns digging up its corpse to kick it again.

Which is probably why you chose to post it here, where people were less likely to know.

Can you please link a relevant thread? I don’t frequent the lore forums too much, and the reason that I posted this here is because it ties heavily into lore, the living story, and the game mechanics that would be needed to support it. With that said, I have seen one or two topics of this nature float by, and I don’t think I’ve seen a convincing argument for why this couldn’t be the case.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first

Try reading that.

Hm…that post seems like a similar thread to this one (obviously) but nothing that a) a dev commented on to dissuade the theory or b) that actually picked out a specific piece of lore that said the theory isn’t possible. Unless I’m misreading, it seems like a group of people hashing out a theory just like they are here but not really disproving the idea that the Pale Tree is tied to Mordremoth. If anything, reading that thread made me think that the idea is even more plausible.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Hm…that post seems like a similar thread to this one (obviously) but nothing that a) a dev commented on to dissuade the theory or b) that actually picked out a specific piece of lore that said the theory isn’t possible. Unless I’m misreading, it seems like a group of people hashing out a theory just like they are here but not really disproving the idea that the Pale Tree is tied to Mordremoth. If anything, reading that thread made me think that the idea is even more plausible.

Konig does an amazing job of showing exactly how ridiculous the Pale Tree + Mordremoth theories are. I’m sorry that you somehow managed to misread all of it and arrive at the opposite opinion. But it is quite simply the most implausible theory that has been going around, I’m going to be really happy when Anet finally releases content that shows people just how idiotic it is.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Hm…that post seems like a similar thread to this one (obviously) but nothing that a) a dev commented on to dissuade the theory or b) that actually picked out a specific piece of lore that said the theory isn’t possible. Unless I’m misreading, it seems like a group of people hashing out a theory just like they are here but not really disproving the idea that the Pale Tree is tied to Mordremoth. If anything, reading that thread made me think that the idea is even more plausible.

Did you read all four pages?

“The Distant Future: A new Pale Tree seed is left after the destruction, and the next arc of the Living Story centers around the germination of a new Pale Tree in the newly-cleansed Orr. This will serve as the new Sylvari starting area”

Had I skipped your four posts to read this, I would say no more than a “cool story bro”

However, having read all of them~you sir, you are a genius. This could totally suffice for ANet’s “I’ve nailed Game of Thrones” claim. I cannot wait

This would be kittening epic if it actually happens.

first of all: why would Mordremoth create seed that give birth to a tree which gives birth to unfaithful minions who are not just ignore orders of Mordremoth but they have become heroes of triya and assist other races to kill elder dragons,they are in fact very important to pact because they are immune to corruption((very helpful in orr in some paths of personal story))
now this is very important to notice:there are other pale trees as u will rescue a sylvari whos not from pale tree and he dose not know the pale tree ,he is from another tree and he is not corrupted too.
the nightmare court are in minority and most of sylvari are the most peaceful race in the entire game.
that makes Mordremoth a pretty stupid dragon who not just give birth to his own death but also gave birth to minion that eventually will kill other elder dragons as well.
its like :
OOPS SORRY MY DRAGONS FRIEND. I AM A BIT kittenED AND INVOLVED IN KILLING U ALL SORRY.
its actually makes the lore of the game funny and stupid.
secondly:about scarlet: she dose not give kitten about pale tree and she is attacking all races particularly humans ((remember the attack on queen)).
well i would say she made deal with elder dragon who is about to rise and burn tyria and whats the deal? i think:
dragon asked her to weaken the races of tryia before his awakening,instead he will give whatever remains of triya to scarlet to have her own empire there fore she can change things they way she want,change the world the way she wants.but first the old world must be destroyed.
she saw its destruction,she saw the raise of an elder dragon,now she has to make decision whether to stay with pale tree and die or make deal with dragon and remain.
well at the end we have to wait and see.

I would just like to state, on behalf of the lore forum, that the OP’s opening post is already full of gigantic errors, big enough to drive a Dolyak through. And since the rest of his theory is based on these false assumptions, do we really need to point out the flaws? I encourage the OP to visit the lore forum some more.

For example:

• Nightmare Court are not corrupted Sylvari.
• The seeds which guarded the pale tree were not guarded by minions of Mordremoth.
• In fact, Mordremoth’s existence isn’t even officially recognized.
• The dragon during the Sylvari opening is a dream, not an actual dragon.
• We know from the writers, that what Scarlet ‘thinks’ she saw, is probably not true.
• None of Scarlet’s attacks have focused anywhere near the Sylvari region. And the upcoming trailer shows her attacking Lornar’s Pass. If her plan was to attack the Pale Tree, someone should get her a map first. The logical conclusion is that she is not interested in the Pale Tree at all.

Would be kinda cool if Scarlet does something really bad; in the end she notices how wrong she was and how she did so many wrong, bad and evil things. She regrets (like: truly regrets from the bottom of her heart), and we eventually give her the opportunity to make up for what she did by joining us in our fight against the dragons. The pale tree could play some kind of a role in this as well; like embracing a once lost child.

Yes, I admit: I like happy ends. ^^

Nilkemia.8507:

Crespus.7405:

Melchior.2135:

Unfortunately, the “Pale Tree = Dragon Minion” theory has been torn to shreds by the Lore forum. At any given time, you can probably find five or six threads there taking turns digging up its corpse to kick it again.

Which is probably why you chose to post it here, where people were less likely to know.

Can you please link a relevant thread? I don’t frequent the lore forums too much, and the reason that I posted this here is because it ties heavily into lore, the living story, and the game mechanics that would be needed to support it. With that said, I have seen one or two topics of this nature float by, and I don’t think I’ve seen a convincing argument for why this couldn’t be the case.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first

Try reading that.

I’ve read through the thread, and Konig does bring up some valid points. Most of it seems to be either focused around details about the Dream of Dreams and Malyck- (whom we know very little about) or the relationship between Elder Dragon and Champion/minion, which is also still quite mysterious, especially given that not all dragons behave the same way, and Mordremoth is the least known of the dragons. With Mordremoth’s supposed domain being ‘life’ and plants, there is good reason to assume that his corruption and relation to his champions/minions would be very different- just as Primordus being of fire and rock means that the production of his minions/champions is very different.

I’m not going to bring specific quotes from that thread into this one because that is this thread and this is this one. I would be 100% glad to talk through these specific issues as they come up in this thread, but it would be an even larger wall-of-text than my original post if I went point-by-point with that thread and responded to it in this one.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would just like to state, on behalf of the lore forum, that the OP’s opening post is already full of gigantic errors, big enough to drive a Dolyak through. And since the rest of his theory is based on these false assumptions, do we really need to point out the flaws? I encourage the OP to visit the lore forum some more.

For example:

• Nightmare Court are not corrupted Sylvari.
• The seeds which guarded the pale tree were not guarded by minions of Mordremoth.
• In fact, Mordremoth’s existence isn’t even officially recognized.
• The dragon during the Sylvari opening is a dream, not an actual dragon.
• We know from the writers, that what Scarlet ‘thinks’ she saw, is probably not true.
• None of Scarlet’s attacks have focused anywhere near the Sylvari region. And the upcoming trailer shows her attacking Lornar’s Pass. If her plan was to attack the Pale Tree, someone should get her a map first. The logical conclusion is that she is not interested in the Pale Tree at all.

I don’t post very often, but I will probably lurk the lore forums a little more often after this. I still hold that this post doesn’t necessarily belong in the lore forums since it ties just as much into game mechanics and the living story as it does lore.

Most of your points are assumptions that are still up for debate:

“Nightmare Court are not corrupted Sylvari. " Where is this proven? It seems even if we take away the Mordremoth/Pale Tree connection, we have very little reason to doubt this, as they not only behave similarly to Svanir, but they also never return from the Nightmare/Corruption. (Just like dragon corruption.)

“The seeds which guarded the pale tree were not guarded by minions of Mordremoth.” As far as I know, the only thing that we know is that a plant creature guarded them when Ronin found them, and Mordremoth is a Jungle Dragon.

“In fact, Mordremoth’s existence isn’t even officially recognized.” Not by name, but we are 99% sure that there is a sixth jungle dragon. Even if this dragon isn’t named Mordremoth, it does not affect this theory.

“The dragon during the Sylvari opening is a dream, not an actual dragon.” It is still a representation of corruption that does not fit any existing dragons. It would be a great coincidence if a plant dragon representing corruption did not correspond in some way to the Jungle Dragon.

“We know from the writers, that what Scarlet ‘thinks’ she saw, is probably not true.” And this theory never disputes this. She can absolutely be wrong about the nature of the Pale Tree’s connection to Mordremoth and the Pale Tree’s intentions while still being right about fact that there IS a connection between the two. It is often the subtle mistakes that are the most damaging.

“None of Scarlet’s attacks have focused anywhere near the Sylvari region. And the upcoming trailer shows her attacking Lornar’s Pass. If her plan was to attack the Pale Tree, someone should get her a map first.”
Scarlet has always been very scattered and omnipresent- that is her nature as a character. The most recent trailer showing an attack on Lornar’s Pass was already confirmed to be a test of her Giant Death Robot™. Its actual purpose is probably nowhere near there, or, as I’ve already said in my original post, its purpose is to make a spectacle of an attack on Lion’s Arch, destroy the Asura Gates, and draw all possible allies there rather than to the Grove.

“The logical conclusion is that she is not interested in the Pale Tree at all.”
Please read my thread. I’ve already shown quite clearly that Scarlet has a vested interest in the Pale Tree. In fact, this is the focus of the entire “What Scarlet Saw” story.

Nilkemia.8507:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Hm…that post seems like a similar thread to this one (obviously) but nothing that a) a dev commented on to dissuade the theory or b) that actually picked out a specific piece of lore that said the theory isn’t possible. Unless I’m misreading, it seems like a group of people hashing out a theory just like they are here but not really disproving the idea that the Pale Tree is tied to Mordremoth. If anything, reading that thread made me think that the idea is even more plausible.

Did you read all four pages?

Yes, and nothing suggests any of this as fact, just someone else’s ideas on the subject. Don’t get me wrong, they’re very titillating ideas, but they’re nothing that I could look up on the wiki and get a hard answer on. I’m impressed with Konig’s long and obviously well-thought out theory, but it’s just that…a theory. Just because it’s posted in the “Lore Forum” doesn’t mean it’s actually confirmed and definitive lore from the game developers.

Crespus.7405:

“Nightmare Court are not corrupted Sylvari. " Where is this proven? It seems even if we take away the Mordremoth/Pale Tree connection, we have very little reason to doubt this, as they not only behave similarly to Svanir, but they also never return from the Nightmare/Corruption. (Just like dragon corruption.)

The nightmare court is a faction within Sylvari society, just as the Inquest is a faction among the Asura. They may both be evil, but that does not link them to any Elder Dragon in any way. The Nightmare Court behave quite differently to the Sons of Svanir in almost each and every way. I don’t know how you could claim the opposite. Besides, the Nightmare Court does not corrupt Sylvari, only tempt them to join their cause, and seeks to free them from the shackles of the Pale Tree. They are not like evil dragon cultists, like the Sons of Svanir. Nor do we have any reason to assume they were wispered promises of power from an Elder Dragon.

Crespus.7405:

“The seeds which guarded the pale tree were not guarded by minions of Mordremoth.” As far as I know, the only thing that we know is that a plant creature guarded them when Ronin found them, and Mordremoth is a Jungle Dragon.

We also know where the seeds were roughly found, which is an area that was guarded by Druids in GW1. The plant-like guardians likely describe oakhearts or druids more than anything dragon related.

Crespus.7405:

“In fact, Mordremoth’s existence isn’t even officially recognized.” Not by name, but we are 99% sure that there is a sixth jungle dragon. Even if this dragon isn’t named Mordremoth, it does not affect this theory.

It seems a bit presumptuous to speculate on the involvement of an Elder Dragon who isn’t even mentioned in-game, and only really exists in the form of one skill.

Crespus.7405:

“The dragon during the Sylvari opening is a dream, not an actual dragon.” It is still a representation of corruption that does not fit any existing dragons. It would be a great coincidence if a plant dragon representing corruption did not correspond in some way to the Jungle Dragon.

What the dragon in that Dream is, is a nightmare. Plain and simple. Something has poisoned the Dream (most likely Nightmare Court), causing this creature to appear. You do not need the involvement of an Elder Dragon to explain it.

Crespus.7405:

its purpose is to make a spectacle of an attack on Lion’s Arch, destroy the Asura Gates, and draw all possible allies there rather than to the Grove.

That seems extremely presumptuous. What do you base this theory on?

Crespus.7405:

Please read my thread. I’ve already shown quite clearly that Scarlet has a vested interest in the Pale Tree. In fact, this is the focus of the entire “What Scarlet Saw” story.

The focus of the entire “What Scarlet Saw” story, is what made her break away from the Pale Tree, and what made her go insane. At no point does she express outright hatred towards the Pale Tree. None of her attacks so far have been anywhere near Sylvari territory.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The nightmare court is a faction within Sylvari society, just as the Inquest is a faction among the Asura. They may both be evil, but that does not link them to any Elder Dragon in any way. The Nightmare Court behave quite differently to the Sons of Svanir in almost each and every way. I don’t know how you could claim the opposite. Besides, the Nightmare Court does not corrupt Sylvari, only tempt them to join their cause, and seeks to free them from the shackles of the Pale Tree. They are not like evil dragon cultists, like the Sons of Svanir. Nor do we have any reason to assume they were wispered promises of power from an Elder Dragon.

The Svanir are a faction within Norn society just like the Inquest- that doesn’t prevent them from being corrupted by Jormag- but that’s irrelevant to what I’m saying here, and I’m not linking them to the ED because they are ‘evil.’ If that was the case, I’d say bandits are ED minions too, and that is just ridiculous. And actually, if you play through Twilight Arbor’s story mode, you will notice the Court doing far more than just ‘tempting’ Sylvari. They lock them up in seed pods and torture them, pulling them away from the Dream with pain. (Remember all of the seed pods in this path that you should never open because it’s a 50/50 chance of them being normal Sylvari or NC?) I was saying that they are similar to Svanir in that they are very similar to one of the playable races and they are spreading dragon corruption.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We also know where the seeds were roughly found, which is an area that was guarded by Druids in GW1. The plant-like guardians likely describe oakhearts or druids more than anything dragon related.

This is another plausible theory, but the timing of the seeds is remarkably close to the time of the first dragons’ awakening. It would be a large coincidence if the Sylvari just happened to be created at the same time that the Dragons awoke. This hints that there may be some connection.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It seems a bit presumptuous to speculate on the involvement of an Elder Dragon who isn’t even mentioned in-game, and only really exists in the form of one skill.

He is not mentioned by name, but a sixth dragon is definitely mentioned. And we have many hints that it is a jungle dragon. The name is a name, and it does not affect the theory. We could just as easily call the Jungle Dragon “Skippy” and it wouldn’t change the theory in the least.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What the dragon in that Dream is, is a nightmare. Plain and simple. Something has poisoned the Dream (most likely Nightmare Court), causing this creature to appear. You do not need the involvement of an Elder Dragon to explain it.

It is a nightmare, but it is unclear what the source is. The fact that it takes the form of a plant dragon when there is near certainty of a jungle dragon in-game draws an undeniable connection. An Elder Dragon is not needed to explain this, but it certainly is a plausible theory, and a theory that fits well with all of the other evidence.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That seems extremely presumptuous. What do you base this theory on?

As I said in my original post- predicting exactly how the future patches will play out is an inexact science, and this is absolutely the least important part of the thread. With that said, it would make sense given Scarlet’s vision, her involvement with the Pale Tree, and her (mad) genius according the story thus far.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The focus of the entire “What Scarlet Saw” story, is what made her break away from the Pale Tree, and what made her go insane. At no point does she express outright hatred towards the Pale Tree. None of her attacks so far have been anywhere near Sylvari territory.

Yes she’s insane, but to what level? Are we talking an ‘assault the elderly with a rubber-ducky’ level of crazy, or are we talking a ‘fixated so much on something that I will do anything to accomplish it’ level of crazy. The story, her dialog, and her action suggest the latter. What would she be fixated upon? The only answer we have to that is the Pale Tree and the ‘enslavement’ of the Sylvari.

Phadde.7362:

>>>>>>> Best Thread Ever <<<<<<<

Agreed…Thanks to the OP for taking the time to lay out his theories, it’s a interesting read.

Crespus.7405:

The Svanir are a faction within Norn society just like the Inquest

No they are not. They are dragon cultists. They directly worship Jormag. The Nightmare Court and the Inquest are independent groups who do not serve any elder dragon (that we know of).

Crespus.7405:

I was saying that they are similar to Svanir in that they are very similar to one of the playable races and they are spreading dragon corruption.

Except that they are not spreading dragon corruption. They are drawing Sylvari into nightmare, but we have NO indication that they serve the goal of any Elder Dragon. They are an independent faction as far as we know. And nothing points otherwise. I’m simply pointing out that you can’t inject dragon corruption into a faction that is clearly not spreading any.

Crespus.7405:

This is another plausible theory, but the timing of the seeds is remarkably close to the time of the first dragons’ awakening.

You call hundreds of years close?

Crespus.7405:

The story, her dialog, and her action suggest the latter. What would she be fixated upon? The only answer we have to that is the Pale Tree and the ‘enslavement’ of the Sylvari.

No, that’s your only answer. At this point we have no indication what Scarlet’s goals are. We know she is eager to learn various sciences. But we see no indication of goals regarding the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. Scarlet brought the Nightmare Court and the Krait together, not to pursue the goal of the Nightmare Court clearly, whose goal has always been the corruption of the Pale Tree. Scarlet shows no signs of compassion, or empathy towards the goals of the factions she teams up with. And she shows no interest in the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. She seems way more interested in magic and technology. If we had to guess at any goal for Scarlet, I think we should look in the direction of the things she has been pursuing up to this point.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No they are not. They are dragon cultists. They directly worship Jormag. The Nightmare Court and the Inquest are independent groups who do not serve any elder dragon (that we know of).

The Sons of Svanir have their own section of Hoelbrak…I’d say they’re fairly well integrated into Norn society.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Except that they are not spreading dragon corruption. They are drawing Sylvari into nightmare, but we have NO indication that they serve the goal of any Elder Dragon. They are an independent faction as far as we know. And nothing points otherwise. I’m simply pointing out that you can’t inject dragon corruption into a faction that is clearly not spreading any.

You are presuming the exact thing we are arguing over. Your argument is ‘they are not dragon minions because they are not spreading dragon corruption’ and that ‘they are not spreading dragon corruption because they aren’t dragon minions.’ We know very little about Mordremoth’s flavor of corruption (because, as you have said, we don’t know much about him, let alone if that is his real name), and we don’t know much about the origins of the Nightmare, which is a form of corruption- dragon or otherwise. It seems to follow that there is perfectly good reason to suggest that they could be linked.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You call hundreds of years close?

Source; http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon
Primordus first stirred in 1078, and the Dwarves encountered the Great Destroyer, his Champion. This is the first recorded dragon activity since the end of the previous cycle 10,000+ years ago.
The most recent awakening was Kralkatorrik, who awoke in 1320, which puts a span of 250 years between the two farthest known dragon awakenings.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree
This claims that the Pale Tree’s seed was planted “over 250 years ago.” With present day Tyria in GW2 being 1327, this puts the time of the Pale Tree’s seed being found some time prior to 1077, just one year before Primordus stirred. Please keep in mind that a dragon does not need to fully awaken for its champions/minions to be active. While “hundreds of years,” as you put it is a stretch, it is not clear what the exact timing of events is, but even if this occurred more than 100 years before Primordus’s stirring, we have many dragons who have awakened/first showed activity in more than a 100 year interval. Yes, when we look at a 10,000+ year cycle, this is astonishingly close.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, that’s your only answer. At this point we have no indication what Scarlet’s goals are. We know she is eager to learn various sciences. But we see no indication of goals regarding the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. Scarlet brought the Nightmare Court and the Krait together, not to pursue the goal of the Nightmare Court clearly, whose goal has always been the corruption of the Pale Tree. Scarlet shows no signs of compassion, or empathy towards the goals of the factions she teams up with. And she shows no interest in the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. She seems way more interested in magic and technology. If we had to guess at any goal for Scarlet, I think we should look in the direction of the things she has been pursuing up to this point.

I’ve actually shown you that we do have proof of her motivations. “It was then Ceara saw the thorn vine. It emerged from the roots at the base of the tree and began to climb, wrapping itself around the trunk and scoring the bark with its dusty red barbs. Green-black ichor oozed from these wounds, and the great tree shuddered” This is part of her vision. She saw this thorn vine encircle the tree. We lack the rest of the vision, but this image made enough of an impact on her that she modeled herself after this scarlet briar and became “Scarlet Briar.” You cannot deny this symbolism; even taken out of the context of this theory, it shows that Scarlet means to harm the Pale Tree.

Blanger.3162:

Phadde.7362:

>>>>>>> Best Thread Ever <<<<<<<

Agreed…Thanks to the OP for taking the time to lay out his theories, it’s a interesting read.

I’m glad you all enjoyed the read! If nothing else, it’s always fun to speculate on these things!

Just gotta chip in here…

Crespus.7405:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No they are not. They are dragon cultists. They directly worship Jormag. The Nightmare Court and the Inquest are independent groups who do not serve any elder dragon (that we know of).

The Sons of Svanir have their own section of Hoelbrak…I’d say they’re fairly well integrated into Norn society.

They’re allowed to have that section because the norn don’t want to just throw them out. I think I recall an NPC having something to say about them being welcome “so long as they don’t start any trouble in Hoelbrak”.

The norn do not like their presence in general.

Also the Sons of Svanir are not directly corrupted, they are merely serving those who are. The Icebrood, on the other hand, are dragon minions.

Crespus.7405:

I don’t post very often, but I will probably lurk the lore forums a little more often after this. I still hold that this post doesn’t necessarily belong in the lore forums since it ties just as much into game mechanics and the living story as it does lore.

Most of your points are assumptions that are still up for debate:

“Nightmare Court are not corrupted Sylvari. " Where is this proven? It seems even if we take away the Mordremoth/Pale Tree connection, we have very little reason to doubt this, as they not only behave similarly to Svanir, but they also never return from the Nightmare/Corruption. (Just like dragon corruption.)

This is true. According to GW1 wiki, the Nightmare court are trying to commit acts of evil so that they can influence the Pale Tree’s morals and make it uniquely Sylvari. They have not been corrupted, just radicalized.

Crespus.7405:

“The seeds which guarded the pale tree were not guarded by minions of Mordremoth.” As far as I know, the only thing that we know is that a plant creature guarded them when Ronin found them, and Mordremoth is a Jungle Dragon.

This is also true, however the GW1 wiki does state that there was more than one. I picture something like Husks.

Crespus.7405:

“In fact, Mordremoth’s existence isn’t even officially recognized.” Not by name, but we are 99% sure that there is a sixth jungle dragon. Even if this dragon isn’t named Mordremoth, it does not affect this theory.

This may be true, but I am personally unsure of the references. The only thing I do know for sure about more dragons is that there is an “unnamed water dragon” in the Deeps that has displaced the Krait.

Crespus.7405:

“The dragon during the Sylvari opening is a dream, not an actual dragon.” It is still a representation of corruption that does not fit any existing dragons. It would be a great coincidence if a plant dragon representing corruption did not correspond in some way to the Jungle Dragon.

I think that the dragon in the Sylvari opening dream sequence is more of a minion, like Teq or the Shatterer. If there is a jungle dragon, I believe this is a more likely scenario.

Crespus.7405:

“None of Scarlet’s attacks have focused anywhere near the Sylvari region. And the upcoming trailer shows her attacking Lornar’s Pass. If her plan was to attack the Pale Tree, someone should get her a map first.”
Scarlet has always been very scattered and omnipresent- that is her nature as a character. The most recent trailer showing an attack on Lornar’s Pass was already confirmed to be a test of her Giant Death Robot™. Its actual purpose is probably nowhere near there, or, as I’ve already said in my original post, its purpose is to make a spectacle of an attack on Lion’s Arch, destroy the Asura Gates, and draw all possible allies there rather than to the Grove.

I think the reason she has not attacked the Grove and the Pale Tree directly is simply a case of not wanting to kitten in her own bed. Whether she likes it or not, this is her home and heritage. Even though she will attack anyone from any race, she is still Sylvari. She may have “feelings” about her home and simply doesn’t want to see it destroyed, or at least may be trying to fix it so that she has a place to go to when it’s all over.

Crespus.7405:

“The logical conclusion is that she is not interested in the Pale Tree at all.”
Please read my thread. I’ve already shown quite clearly that Scarlet has a vested interest in the Pale Tree. In fact, this is the focus of the entire “What Scarlet Saw” story.

Of course she has a vested interest. Like the Nightmare Court, she wants the pale tree to bend to her bidding. I just think she doesn’t have a cohesive plan for it yet. Then again, we don’t know what they have planned for the rest of the story arc.

Personally, I think that if there is a Jungle Dragon, and not simply a minion of an already existing dragon, then Scarlet would have a vested interest in seeing that it doesn’t destroy what she is working for, whatever that may be. This next few chapters of the LS should be interesting to play.

Crespus.7405:

The Sons of Svanir have their own section of Hoelbrak…I’d say they’re fairly well integrated into Norn society.

But that’s not what we were discussing. You made a comparison between the Nightmare Court and the Sons of Svanir. They are not the same. The Sons of Svanir are dragon cultists, and the Nightmare Court are just a Sylvari sect (as far as we know).

Also, the Sons of Svanir are not integrated into Norn society at all.

Crespus.7405:

While “hundreds of years,” as you put it is a stretch, it is not clear what the exact timing of events is, but even if this occurred more than 100 years before Primordus’s stirring, we have many dragons who have awakened/first showed activity in more than a 100 year interval. Yes, when we look at a 10,000+ year cycle, this is astonishingly close.

No it’s not. There’s nothing astonishing about it. You take a huge time span, and then point out that the Sylvari awoke somewhere within this gigantic undefined time span. There’s nothing astonishing about that.

Crespus.7405:

We lack the rest of the vision, but this image made enough of an impact on her that she modeled herself after this scarlet briar and became “Scarlet Briar.” You cannot deny this symbolism; even taken out of the context of this theory, it shows that Scarlet means to harm the Pale Tree.

No it doesn’t. How do you make that conclusion? All you have is a perfectly logical reason why Scarlet stepped away from the Pale Tree and went rogue. There is nothing in that story that indicates hatred towards the Pale Tree, or a grudge. And nothing indicates she wants to destroy the Pale Tree either. We don’t know Scarlet’s goal or motivations for her actions. We just don’t.

I’m telling you, there’s a reason why the lore community has already shredded this hypothesis to pieces. I urge you to read up a bit. Because you are making an awful lot of incorrect assumptions about the lore.

Look, the fact of the matter is this: Whether you’re doing it in the Lore forum or you’re doing it here, all anyone is doing is putting out theories. As we’ve seen in this thread and in the lore forum, these theories have evidence to both support and work against those theories. The key word being THEORIES. That’s what makes this whole process fun.

Is it possible that everything in this thread is wrong? Yes. Is it possible that the “overlords” of the Lore forum have it wrong too? Also yes. So lets stop with the nonsense of whose theories are more logical or true and stick to the “what if” that makes this whole process so interesting.

Resk.6412:

Look, the fact of the matter is this: Whether you’re doing it in the Lore forum or you’re doing it here, all anyone is doing is putting out theories. As we’ve seen in this thread and in the lore forum, these theories have evidence to both support and work against those theories. The key word being THEORIES. That’s what makes this whole process fun.

Is it possible that everything in this thread is wrong? Yes. Is it possible that the “overlords” of the Lore forum have it wrong too? Also yes. So lets stop with the nonsense of whose theories are more logical or true and stick to the “what if” that makes this whole process so interesting.

I absolutely couldn’t agree more. I think it’s come to the point where we’re no longer arguing over the theory itself, and are mincing words over details. I believe my theory is sound, but by no means absolute. I also understand where others who disagree are coming from, even if I do not agree with them. I have done a fair bit of research, and tried to lay out my thoughts as clearly as possible for all to enjoy. I think that further argumentation over the lore at this point has stopped being constructive, and is closing in on inflammatory.

Feel free to continue to comment about the theory and its ramifications, but I don’t intend to get back into heated point-by-point debate over it.

Fine, I merely pointed out that you’re wrong on several things, and the lore community knows for sure these things are wrong. This hypothesis has been proposed several times in the lore forum, and shot down for these and many other reasons.

You can discuss it all you want, nothing wrong with that, but I’m afraid it has already been disproved by many other people besides me.

I’m sure that this has been said before, but wouldn’t it make more sense when Scarlet would actually try to wake Mordremoth rather than kill the tree?

She’s maybe convinced that the 6th dragon is necessary to purge the world or whatever it is delusional geniuses think.

In any case, thats what the probes are for, maybe.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fine, I merely pointed out that you’re wrong on several things, and the lore community knows for sure these things are wrong. This hypothesis has been proposed several times in the lore forum, and shot down for these and many other reasons.

You can discuss it all you want, nothing wrong with that, but I’m afraid it has already been disproved by many other people besides me.

And you are welcome to think that.. Just like I’m welcome to think that you are wrong, and that the claims that I’ve seen from you (and others) do not disprove this theory in the least. I respect your opinion- can you at least have the decency to recognize that your opinion is not the only viable one?

PinkFrog.4567:

I’m sure that this has been said before, but wouldn’t it make more sense when Scarlet would actually try to wake Mordremoth rather than kill the tree?

She’s maybe convinced that the 6th dragon is necessary to purge the world or whatever it is delusional geniuses think.

In any case, thats what the probes are for, maybe.

I’m not sure what Scarlet would get by waking Mordremoth; we really don’t have a reason to think she’s on the dragons’ side (if they even have a collective side) yet.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fine, I merely pointed out that you’re wrong on several things, and the lore community knows for sure these things are wrong. This hypothesis has been proposed several times in the lore forum, and shot down for these and many other reasons.

You can discuss it all you want, nothing wrong with that, but I’m afraid it has already been disproved by many other people besides me.

The problem with this being that if the lore forum has supposedly disproved these theories before, then you and others could give specific links showing this. The only attempt at this so far has been a link to a thread with nothing more than theories like this one. So I’m afraid that if these things have already been disproved, the burden of proof is on you.
Frankly, all you have done is claim that pieces of this theory are false with no proof other than “The Lore Forum has spoken” and acted like this was enough to suggest that your ideas are the only sound ones. Until there is some actual proof, either from the wiki or the dev’s own mouths (or fingers), I think we’ll all do a little better to treat everything as opinion and theory, and certainly not as fact.

The only thing I disagree about is the last part

The Distant Future: A new Pale Tree seed is left after the destruction, and the next arc of the Living Story centers around the germination of a new Pale Tree in the newly-cleansed Orr. This will serve as the new Sylvari starting area.

I really doubt that would happen, they wont change the current Orr because it plays a huge role in the personal story, and anything that involves the personal story will not be touched by the living story, the personal story is set in stone unless they rewrite it, Orr being poisoned is part of it.

I did read your response above but (no offense) it’s a complete nonsense, the amount of resources wasted and all the possible cons makes it very unlikely that they would implement two versions of the same map just for the living story.

If they didn’t cleanse Orr when the personal story ended, they wont for a living story.