Guild Wars 2

Oy vey, this again.

Wanderer.3248:

Oy vey, this again.

Yup >.>

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The problem with this being that if the lore forum has supposedly disproved these theories before, then you and others could give specific links showing this.

Someone already did. There’s an entire thread that addresses this issue.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The only attempt at this so far has been a link to a thread with nothing more than theories like this one. So I’m afraid that if these things have already been disproved, the burden of proof is on you.
Frankly, all you have done is claim that pieces of this theory are false with no proof other than “The Lore Forum has spoken” and acted like this was enough to suggest that your ideas are the only sound ones.

I beg your pardon? Didn’t I point out several issues where the OP is wrong in his assumptions?

• “The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.”

Not true, the Elder Dragons awoke over a long time span. Not all of them woke simultaniously, and the awakening of Primordus was delayed. So you can pretty much cherry pick any date and say, “what a coincidence, one of the elder dragons awoke around that time”.

• “Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.”

This is silly. Sylvari are plants, so naturally they grow on a tree. A seed growing on a tree is not similar to a Destroyer growing from an egg. If the Pale Tree’s purpose was to spawn corrupt Sylvari, then it’s doing a really bad job at it.

• “If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.”

This is faulty logic. Sylvari have a choice. They can follow the Dream, or follow the Nightmare. This does not make the Nightmare their natural state.

• “The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.”

No it doesn’t. So far it is only mentioned in her story casually, because she is a Sylvari. But after that the Pale Tree is never mentioned again. Certainly not in any of the Living Story.

• “The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life.”

A much stronger theme to look at, is all the alliances Scarlet has formed, the many sciences she has studied, and the way she’s tried to alter these races. A good example is the Krait Hybrid.

• “She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.”

She’s already free of the Pale Tree. Why would she want to kill it? History shows that she does not care much for anyone, Sylvari included.

Konig already proposed a much more convincing theory, that Mordremoth is simply trying to reach Sylvari by corrupting them mentally, but without the Pale Tree being a willing participant. The idea of Mordremoth using mental manipulation seems to fit a sort of Cthulhu theme, and makes sense. But the Pale Tree being a dragon minion, is absurd.

Melchior.2135:

Unfortunately, the “Pale Tree = Dragon Minion” theory has been torn to shreds by the Lore forum. At any given time, you can probably find five or six threads there taking turns digging up its corpse to kick it again.

Which is probably why you chose to post it here, where people were less likely to know.

No, the dragon minion theory has never been debunked in the lore forum.

All people do is say “this cannot be so because Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption” or something equally irrelevant and then fail to come back.

The counters to the theory are paper thin and rely on assumptions that are downright silly.

Instead of just repeating things in the hopes that it becomes true why not actually present your counters so you can be proven wrong.

Risingashes.8694:

Melchior.2135:

Unfortunately, the “Pale Tree = Dragon Minion” theory has been torn to shreds by the Lore forum. At any given time, you can probably find five or six threads there taking turns digging up its corpse to kick it again.

Which is probably why you chose to post it here, where people were less likely to know.

No, the dragon minion theory has never been debunked in the lore forum.

All people do is say “this cannot be so because Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption” or something equally irrelevant and then fail to come back.

The counters to the theory are paper thin and rely on assumptions that are downright silly.

Instead of just repeating things in the hopes that it becomes true why not actually present your counters so you can be proven wrong.

All right.

It is highly unlikely the Pale Tree is, itself, a dragon minion and the sylvari fruits of dragon corruption. I say this because the Pale Tree does not behave like dragon minions, and there is no corruptive element to how sylvari behave.

They do not reshape things to serve them or their needs, save for the plants which are their houses. Given it’s not the first time we’ve seen things like that (the Maguuma Jungle has had plants of really strange forms for a long time) . . . I find it hard to follow that thread along.

The sylvari are immune to dragon corruptions, and simply die instead. It’s been noted the few dragon corruptions known cannot coexist . . . but this was the crux of some research in the Crucible of Eternity, wasn’kitten And it became realized you could in fact merge them, but it was an unstable result.

(Also, the destroyers are not corruptions, they are creations. Primordius for whatever reason does not seem to corrupt with its influence. When it needs minions with different abilities, it creates them. At least from what we have seen and experienced so far.)

There are suggestions of other trees out there, but we haven’t actually seen them. We were told they exist, but not where they are. (Though close enough for one to arrive from elsewhere.) the Nightmare Court and Soundless are both strange forms of sylvari but seem more permutations of what is possible with the unique life cycle of the sylvari than dragon corruption.

And all of this is pure conjecture and supposition because we simply don’t have information to disprove or prove either side.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• Nightmare Court are not corrupted Sylvari.

I would like to state, on behalf of the lore forum, that your post does not represent the lore forum.

Nothing in their post relies on this strict definition, so you’re nitpicking instead of addressing the theory. Under a lot of viewpoints NC are indeed corrupted Sylvari. At most you can say that NC are not proven to be corrupted Sylvari, in which case your statement is filler.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• The seeds which guarded the pale tree were not guarded by minions of Mordremoth.

They were guarded by non-specific plant monsters, not mentioned in any other part of the game or book. So at best you can say they were not definately Mordremoth related. Which again is simply trying to present a non-confirmation as proof of disproof.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• In fact, Mordremoth’s existence isn’t even officially recognized.

And how does that counter anything expressed in the theory? Theories cannot be officially recognized as then they become fact. Your critisism is again filler in an attempt to pad out a paper thin rebuttal which has half a point at most, which I assume we’ll arrive at shortly.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• The dragon during the Sylvari opening is a dream, not an actual dragon.

How is this evidence against the theory? This is simply you purposefully misinterpreting things to pad out your list. When talking about the dream you assume you’re talking about non-physical representations, the OP would need to of said this to make this point relevant.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• We know from the writers, that what Scarlet ‘thinks’ she saw, is probably not true.

Firstly, this requires a misreading of the quote. Secondly this requires the assumption that devs wouldn’t lightly mislead people in order to maintain a twist.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• None of Scarlet’s attacks have focused anywhere near the Sylvari region. And the upcoming trailer shows her attacking Lornar’s Pass. If her plan was to attack the Pale Tree, someone should get her a map first. The logical conclusion is that she is not interested in the Pale Tree at all.

Now you’re not even reading the OP. This point is clearly outlined in the post. So again, another padding.

So we’ve reached the end and all you have is misquoting devs, purposefully misunderstanding the OP, pointing things out already addressed by the OP, and general filler.

Par for the course for lore forum police.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

All right.

It is highly unlikely the Pale Tree is, itself, a dragon minion and the sylvari fruits of dragon corruption. I say this because the Pale Tree does not behave like dragon minions, and there is no corruptive element to how sylvari behave.

They do not reshape things to serve them or their needs, save for the plants which are their houses. Given it’s not the first time we’ve seen things like that (the Maguuma Jungle has had plants of really strange forms for a long time) . . . I find it hard to follow that thread along.

The sylvari are immune to dragon corruptions, and simply die instead. It’s been noted the few dragon corruptions known cannot coexist . . . but this was the crux of some research in the Crucible of Eternity, wasn’kitten And it became realized you could in fact merge them, but it was an unstable result.

(Also, the destroyers are not corruptions, they are creations. Primordius for whatever reason does not seem to corrupt with its influence. When it needs minions with different abilities, it creates them. At least from what we have seen and experienced so far.)

There are suggestions of other trees out there, but we haven’t actually seen them. We were told they exist, but not where they are. (Though close enough for one to arrive from elsewhere.) the Nightmare Court and Soundless are both strange forms of sylvari but seem more permutations of what is possible with the unique life cycle of the sylvari than dragon corruption.

And all of this is pure conjecture and supposition because we simply don’t have information to disprove or prove either side.

The Pale Tree = Jungle Champion theory doesn’t assume the Pale Tree is a servant, but that it’s a free’d champion ala Glint. The Slyvari would be minions, the minions of the dragon aren’t the reshapers, rather specific units and champions are the ones doing the enviromental terraforming. In this case Husks and the Pale Tree would be reshaping capable, something we clearly see ingame. But since the Husks and Pale Tree are free’d the extent of terraforming is understandably restrained.

“The sylvari are immune to dragon corruptions” I am so sick of this sentance. They’re immune to all current forms of corruption. It’s a plant dragon, if any dragon was to corrupt them it’d be a plant dragon. Our knowledge of the world is based upon current understanding, big reveals change that understanding. Why are you, and certain people, so caught up on this logic? Yes a character preview mentioned immunity years ago. But this is something a storyteller would do if they wanted to reveal a big threat to the race that changes the playing field, it’s also something a storyteller would do but then change if a thematically important event occurs- such as a plant dragon resurfacing when talking about a plant race.

The immunity is very likely a hint so that people can later look back and see that something was up. Immunity to dragon corruption is a special thing and needs a reason for it, the immunity being a result of being dragon minions makes perfect contextual, thematic and narrative sense- is it the only explanation? No, not even close. But the immunity has absolutely no impact on the legitimacy of the minion theory.

“Also, the destroyers are not corruptions, they are creations.”

This old tidbit. Stop playing around with definitions. Trying to define what is and what isn’t a corruption to fit what you already believe is not interesting or helpful to anyone. The important thing to ask is: Does the definition matter to the overall point? So- does it? Does calling destroyers creations instead of corruptions change the fundamentals of anything anyone here is saying? Because it just bogs down paragraphs otherwise. If something matters say when it matters, don’t just play the dictionary game and throw your hands up in the air as if it’s an actual point.

The rest of what you said is, I think you’ll agree, rambling that concludes we can’t know anything- a fairly redundant statement for a theory thread.

Risingashes.8694:

The rest of what you said is, I think you’ll agree, rambling that concludes we can’t know anything- a fairly redundant statement for a theory thread.

. . . no, what it concludes is any of the suppositions on what the Pale Tree is, other than the plant which generates sylvari as a race, is made in the absence of hard, verified data.

And because you decided to not read my post completely and just choose what to rail at, let’s start over.

Risingashes.8694:

The Pale Tree = Jungle Champion theory doesn’t assume the Pale Tree is a servant, but that it’s a free’d champion ala Glint. The Slyvari would be minions, the minions of the dragon aren’t the reshapers, rather specific units and champions are the ones doing the enviromental terraforming. In this case Husks and the Pale Tree would be reshaping capable, something we clearly see ingame. But since the Husks and Pale Tree are free’d the extent of terraforming is understandably restrained.

Glint is a strange case, because up until the lore team decided “she’s an ex-dragon champion” there wasn’t any indication she was anything other than the last of her kind. This fact still annoys me when I think too kitten it. There’s not much suggesting Glint could do what the Pale Tree does – generating new intelligent and reasoning life.

“The sylvari are immune to dragon corruptions” I am so sick of this sentance.

You’re right, I should have said “immune to known dragon corruptions”.

The immunity is very likely a hint so that people can later look back and see that something was up

Pure conjecture with no basis in fact, and exists solely to prove a hypothesis with vapor.

“Also, the destroyers are not corruptions, they are creations.” This old tidbit. Stop playing around with definitions.

Not playing around with definitions. The Destroyers are not corruptions of existing creatures like the Icebrood, Risen, or the Branded. They are unique among the four known Dragon minions for this detail. Primordius has not been seen to grab a creature and bend it to its will. It has been seen to adapt destroyers, however.

If something matters say when it matters, don’t just play the dictionary game and throw your hands up in the air as if it’s an actual point.

Throw your hands in the air, wave em like you just don’t care . . .

Cause I don’t. These theories on “Mordremoth” are drawn from one skill’s title. If they make something of it later? That’s not going to change we still don’t even know if it has any importance. We had no clue Abaddon even existed even with a mission zone with his name on it. (Which still is strange, if he’s supposed to have been erased, who figured the name of that caldera to be “Abaddon’s Mouth”?)

Extrapolating from one data point, to suck in all kinds of other odd details which don’t connect except if the conclusion you start with is true doesn’t make it a sound or complete theory. There isn’t any proof of anything concerning this “Sixth Dragon” being a plant dragon, then being the creator of the Pale Tree’s seed, THEN the Tree being a rebellious dragon champion.

It’s not a sound reasoning. Primarily because it only holds up if the central premise is assumed true and then the details make sense after that assumption. Of course, there are alternate theories which could just as easily fit the hole which people want to shove “Mordremoth” into.

- The sylvari are the natural predators of the Elder Dragons and are required to recover things after their cycle is ended.

- The sylvari are creations of someone who tinkered with plant life and we don’t have a clue who they are yet, other than their creations existing in at least two locations.

- The sylvari are another race from a previous cycle and the seeds survived somehow into this one where they might unbalance things from how they are supposed to be into a potential end to the cycle.

- The sylvari are Time Lords.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The problem with this being that if the lore forum has supposedly disproved these theories before, then you and others could give specific links showing this.

Someone already did. There’s an entire thread that addresses this issue.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The only attempt at this so far has been a link to a thread with nothing more than theories like this one. So I’m afraid that if these things have already been disproved, the burden of proof is on you.
Frankly, all you have done is claim that pieces of this theory are false with no proof other than “The Lore Forum has spoken” and acted like this was enough to suggest that your ideas are the only sound ones.

I beg your pardon? Didn’t I point out several issues where the OP is wrong in his assumptions?

• “The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.”

Not true, the Elder Dragons awoke over a long time span. Not all of them woke simultaniously, and the awakening of Primordus was delayed. So you can pretty much cherry pick any date and say, “what a coincidence, one of the elder dragons awoke around that time”.

• “Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.”

This is silly. Sylvari are plants, so naturally they grow on a tree. A seed growing on a tree is not similar to a Destroyer growing from an egg. If the Pale Tree’s purpose was to spawn corrupt Sylvari, then it’s doing a really bad job at it.

• “If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.”

This is faulty logic. Sylvari have a choice. They can follow the Dream, or follow the Nightmare. This does not make the Nightmare their natural state.

• “The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.”

No it doesn’t. So far it is only mentioned in her story casually, because she is a Sylvari. But after that the Pale Tree is never mentioned again. Certainly not in any of the Living Story.

• “The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life.”

A much stronger theme to look at, is all the alliances Scarlet has formed, the many sciences she has studied, and the way she’s tried to alter these races. A good example is the Krait Hybrid.

• “She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.”

She’s already free of the Pale Tree. Why would she want to kill it? History shows that she does not care much for anyone, Sylvari included.

Konig already proposed a much more convincing theory, that Mordremoth is simply trying to reach Sylvari by corrupting them mentally, but without the Pale Tree being a willing participant. The idea of Mordremoth using mental manipulation seems to fit a sort of Cthulhu theme, and makes sense. But the Pale Tree being a dragon minion, is absurd.

Okay, without stooping to insulting you, which just wouldn’t be right, I’m going to go ahead and say you just aren’t listening anymore.

I’m not refuting that the forums haven’t said all of this. I’m not refuting that you believe the forum theories are better. That’s fine.

But what you don’t seem to get is that the theories on the forums aren’t proof that this one is false. I’m sorry if you don’t like this theory, but if you want to say the lore forums’ ideas are better, well you go right ahead and have a lovely time of it.

The thing that’s irritating is that you’re coming here to this thread and consistently acting like the lore forums somehow prove anything, and, more importantly, you’re acting like you and your lore forum friends’ theories are the only ones worth listening to. I’m really sorry to tell you this, but they don’t, and they aren’t. Nothing on these forums proves anything unless it’s also on the wiki or has been put forth by the devs. Even the wiki is shaky at best if it’s open to public editing. Saying the forums, lore or otherwise, provide proof of anything in-game is like saying that Peta’s publications are proof that this is how animal activism works.

This is the last time I’m going to post something like this. If you don’t get the idea of actual proof coming from sources other than individuals who have some (albeit impressive) knowledge of the lore, then I don’t think you ever will, and I wish you happiness in your opinions.

Let’s make this clear as it’ll just be expanded upon in finer detail: Of course this is conjecture, of course this is unprovable, of course this is not hard fact. You’re just listing synonyms for ‘theory’. This is a theory, it cannot be any of the things you’re listing because then it wouldn’t be a theory- it would be an overview.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There’s not much suggesting Glint could do what the Pale Tree does – generating new intelligent and reasoning life.

You’ve managed to merge two completely separate points.
———
You said:
1) that there was no reshaping by Sylvari,

2) therefore they cannot be minions.
———
I said:

1) the theory catagorises Sylvari as minions,

2) the basic minions of other dragons do not reshape things,

3) the champions of dragons and special units of dragons are the ones who reshape things,

4) the Pale Tree and Husks would be champions and special minions of Mord under the theory,

5) the Pale Tree and Husks reshape things,

6) therefore there is no contradiction.
——-

No where did I imply that ALL dragon champions teraform, the entire spiel about Glint is irrelevant.

“The sylvari are immune to dragon corruptions” I am so sick of this sentance.

You’re right, I should have said “immune to known dragon corruptions”.

Well if you had said that your original sentence wouldn’t have made sense, since you were using it as a counter to Sylvari being corruptable by any dragon.

The immunity is very likely a hint

_Pure conjecture

Yes, that is what a theory is. But ‘pure’ conjecture? I’ve provided a gigantic paragraph justifying why the immunity should be important from a narrative and storytelling standpoint, but that was all cut out and ignored.

Not playing around with definitions.

If the definition is important, say why. Don’t just reply with an explanation of what a corruption is and what a construction is, or what a creation is. Unless the definition used counters the fundamental argument you’re simply adding words to the page with no relevance to anything.

You’ve now spent a paragraph claiming that Destroyers are constructions, you’ve spent another paragraph explaining the difference, something I already knew, but didn’t want to discuss because of it’s seeming irrelevance. Where does it go from here? You’ve failed to actually link either paragraph to any lucid point, the definitional split and the exposition simply can’t be used now.

If I was to disagree with you, what purpose would it serve? You’re offering facts as if they support your case- but they don’t in the format you’ve presented them in. I’ll ask for the third time: describe clearly why Primordius having creations, as opposed to corruptions, is related to any previous point mentioned- with the proviso that it has to invalidate something said- not just be a nitpicking defintional irrelevence designed to make your other points appear more supported.

These theories on “Mordremoth” are drawn from one skill’s title.

Okay, so you’re ignorant. That’s fine.

His name is from one skill. But his existance has been confirmed by the main developer since a few months after the game’s launch. The original release schedule actually had two additional dungeons in the Maguuma region. The games next step was planned to be Maguuma and the jungle dragon was always planned to be from there. But it was cut for time constraints.

This isn’t theorising, this is fact. What is theory is the pale tree connection, or the state of awakeness of the dragon, or what his name is (although you’re really pushing it by claiming the skillname isn’t his name considering all the other skill names are Elder Dragon related).

- The sylvari are the natural predators

- The sylvari are creations of someone who tinkered

- The sylvari are another race from a previous cycle

- Time Lords.

Yes, those are all opposing theories. I believe they are all incredibly unsupported in comparison to the theory supported in the OP. If you wish to theorize about the other theories then please make a new thread about them or make a post in here dedicated to offering an alternative.

But the fact you can list a theory with no evidence doesn’t make the case for the OP theory any weaker.

And again: just because something cannot be proven doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just makes it a theory- which is what this entire thread is- a theory thread, not a “confirmed fact” thread.

I didn’t use “terraform” at all in my post. Anywhere. You added that on your own to argue against something I didn’t say, and reinterpreting what I said to be something else.

The spiel about Glint is entirely relevant since your reply assumed the Pale Tree could be a freed champion like Glint. But I went on to point out the Tree has generated intelligent life on its own, where Glint has not shown the capacity to do so. The Shatterer does not create intelligent life, nor does Tequatl or the Claw of Jormag. In one case (the Claw), it deposits crystals which corrupt and animate the ice as elementals.

The Pale Tree shows abilities, therefore, which suggest (heavily) it is not affiliated with a dragon in so far as a champion. Unless we assume the sylvari are “nature elementals” in the same vein as “Icebrood elementals” are, in which case we open up a great many more questions.

Risingashes.8694:

His name is from one skill. But his existance has been confirmed by the main developer since a few months after the game’s launch. The original release schedule actually had two additional dungeons in the Maguuma region. The games next step was planned to be Maguuma and the jungle dragon was always planned to be from there. But it was cut for time constraints.

And yes, I’m ignorant of this whole matter. But an important part:

If it’s not in the game, it’s not yet canon. If it had been there, I wouldn’t have this problem with accepting “Mordremoth” as something which exists outside of one monster skill. If it was intended to be associated with the jungle, as a dragon which influences plant life, and it didn’t make the cut, that’s fine. But until this information actually is in the game it has no point being discussed as though it were hard fact. And unless the lore writers step in and acknowledge it as fact, it is about as much real as the “Gwen Armageddon” which happened way back when GW1 was in beta.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Okay, without stooping to insulting you, which just wouldn’t be right, I’m going to go ahead and say you just aren’t listening anymore.

I’m not refuting that the forums haven’t said all of this. I’m not refuting that you believe the forum theories are better. That’s fine.

You know, if you’re going to quote me mentioning that entire list of errors, and then not argue a single one of them, then you’re doing little more than attacking the person, instead of the argument.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

But what you don’t seem to get is that the theories on the forums aren’t proof that this one is false. I’m sorry if you don’t like this theory, but if you want to say the lore forums’ ideas are better, well you go right ahead and have a lovely time of it.

The discussions on the lore forum come from people more knowledgeable about the lore both from GW1 and GW2. That doesn’t mean their hypotheses are always right, but they are pretty good at pointing out flaws in anyone’s pet hypothesis. I’m not sure if the OP intentionally avoided the lore forum by posting his hypothesis here. But he’d surely get better arguments against his hypothesis at the lore forum.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

The thing that’s irritating is that you’re coming here to this thread and consistently acting like the lore forums somehow prove anything, and, more importantly, you’re acting like you and your lore forum friends’ theories are the only ones worth listening to.

No, I’m acting like this hypothesis has been put forward many times on the lore forum, and many people have shot holes in it.

The idea that the Pale Tree might be a dragon minion, or an elder dragon, is instantly defeated by the fact that the Pale Tree helps the players fight the Elder Dragons. That’s not a fact you can simply wave away.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Even the wiki is shaky at best if it’s open to public editing. Saying the forums, lore or otherwise, provide proof of anything in-game is like saying that Peta’s publications are proof that this is how animal activism works.

That’s not a fair comparison. The Lore forum is very good at pointing out parts of the lore that few people know about, or quotes by the writers directly. It’s simply wise to discuss lore with people who’ve spend the last 5 years (probably even longer) investigating GW lore. 5 years!

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

This is the last time I’m going to post something like this. If you don’t get the idea of actual proof coming from sources.

You just quoted me on several cases where I outright pointed out flaws in the OP’s argument. If you’re not going to argue a single one of them, then you’re not really here to debate the hypothesis at all. Don’t come to me about proof or sources, when I point out things we already know about the lore, and then not argue any of them yourself. Like the Elder Dragons awakening over a long time span (you can find this not just on the wiki, but pretty much everywhere), or the Pale Tree helping the players fight the Elder Dragons (it’s in the personal story, just play the game).

Risingashes.8694:

And again: just because something cannot be proven doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just makes it a theory- which is what this entire thread is- a theory thread, not a “confirmed fact” thread.

No actually that makes it a hypothesis. A theory is supported by evidence. But I know what you meant to say.

Also, as a side note, I don’t understand why people are getting so upset about this. You post this on a discussion forum, and you can expect both people to like your hypothesis, or to disagree with it. I disagree with it, and I have even listed many reasons for why I disagree with it. That is the point of a discussion forum, is it not?

I would reconsider the entire scarlet arc if you’re right, Your story is really cool!!!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Also, as a side note, I don’t understand why people are getting so upset about this. You post this on a discussion forum, and you can expect both people to like your hypothesis, or to disagree with it. I disagree with it, and I have even listed many reasons for why I disagree with it. That is the point of a discussion forum, is it not?

I’m not upset about this idea, I just think it doesn’t work until more information is made verified. It could be an interesting path for things to take, though from a standpoint outside the lore and looking at it as a game it wouldn’t make any sense to set a playable race up like that.

Anyway, now to just wait for being able to go north.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The idea that the Pale Tree might be a dragon minion, or an elder dragon, is instantly defeated by the fact that the Pale Tree helps the players fight the Elder Dragons. That’s not a fact you can simply wave away.

To be fair, they said the Pale Tree would be a freed champion, like Glint. In that case her helping to fight the Elder Dragons would make sense. Glint was only freed by a spell cast by the Forgotten, though.

Crespus.7405:

• The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree
To quote: “_The seed which sprouted the Pale Tree was found in a cave containing many others like it, guarded by powerful plant creatures. Over 250 years ago, Ronan, a Shining Blade warrior, took one of these seeds and placed it on the graves of his family, located in what was once Arbor Bay, who were killed by the mursaat._”
We know nothing about these seeds or the creature who guarded them, but it stands to reason that an unknown, powerful plant-creature could have been one of Mordremoth’s early champions. The time-lines align very well for this theory, and we know about as little about Mordremoth as we do about the other trees. It stands to follow that these seeds could very easily be created by Mordremoth.

We can’t be sure about this, since we know next to nothing about that part of history. The seeds can just as easily have been prepared by some other race looking to protect the future. If they were created by Mordremoth, they would be 10.000 years old, though.

• Sylvari do not reproduce.
o Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Another-lesbian-relationship/first#post3488514 (Thanks to Erukk.1408 for finding this.)
One of the things that we know about all of the dragon minions thus-far is that its minions to not breed in the normal sense. Most dragons corrupt already existing creatures (destroyers, undead, branded, etc.), but those minions do not reproduce after this. The only kind of reproduction that we know of comes from destroyers, as evidenced in the Skritt-arc in the living story: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Hatchery. Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.

Malyck is the greatest counter-point to this theory. He may be more feral than the other Sylvari, but he isn’t corrupt. That means that we can actually conclude that Sylvari aren’t naturally corrupt. That he has no connection to the Dream or his Tree leads us to believe that the Pale Tree is special and likely not in the sense of being a freed champion.

• There are corrupt versions of Sylvari.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare_Court
Nightmare Court are Sylvari that turn away from the Pale Tree’s dream. By turning away from the Dream, Sylvari “are forced to commit dreadful acts that destroy every last ounce of virtue they may have left.” What’s important here is that it is NOT necessarily a conscious choice of the Sylvari to become evil, but rather a natural progression from the Dream to the Nightmare. If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.

If this were the case, then wouldn’t the Soundless automatically turn to corruption? Of course, you could argue that they wouldn’t because they cut off their connection to the Dream, but they did that because they couldn’t deal with the overwhelming amount of sensations coming from the Dream.
Also, it is specifically stated that the Dream is not made by the Pale Tree. She is only its custodian and she doesn’t understand all of it.
Furthermore, the Nightmare Court seduce or torture Sylvari to turn them to the Nightmare. Some of the Court believe only the willing should be converted. Therefore it would not necessarily be a natural state, but more a state brought on by external influences.
We know the Court is attempting to turn the Tree to the Nightmare, but we do not currently know what they hope to achieve by doing that. Cadeyrn created the Court in the first place to tell Her that they should use every means possible to defeat the Elder Dragons. We don’t know what Faolain’s plan is.

Crespus.7405:

• The dragon from the Sylvari’s opening instance does not resemble Zhaitan or his champions.
o Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Dragon
As you can see, this dragon is much closer to a ‘jungle dragon’ than an undead dragon. The Pale Tree attributes this to your Wyld Hunt to defeat Zhaitan, but it is certainly not clear that it saw your dream- you still need to explain what you saw when you awaken, and the player character isn’t particularly descriptive (and understandably so, since they are extremely confused). This is an easy mistake for the Pale Tree to make, especially if the Pale Tree does not know of its own connection to Mordremoth.

All we can really tell for certain is that the Shadow of the Dragon is ‘the form taken by the shadow of evil that has infiltrated the Dream’. It may be formed by the Nightmare, or influence of a Dragon (either Elder or Champion), or the manifestation of your Wyld Hunt, as the Pale Tree believes.
I can’t say if its appearance has any special meaning, though, since it looks like Tequatl made of trees and vines to me.
We also know that it was blocking newborn Sylvari from awakening. Question is, why would it block Sylvari from awakening if the Pale Tree’s purpose is to create corrupt Sylvari, or if Sylvari are naturally corrupt and will enter that state when tempted? Why would it not instead attempt to corrupt them before they awaken?

On to Scarlet:

• The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.
o Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/
The worst thing that we could do while trying to figure out Scarlet’s intentions is to forget her back story. No matter how botched the delivery was, even the most basic story-telling paradigms require consistency: Major themes and ideas introduced in a narrative do not vanish until resolved. The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life. She fled the Pale Tree’s goals for her, and tried to block this from her mind, searching instead for the cold truths of Asuran science- a stark contrast from the Pale Tree’s dream.

She did not flee her purpose, she disregarded it. “I’ll find my own place, thank you very much. And it’s hardly ‘my’ purpose if someone else gives it to me.” She was much more interested in the complex system of smaller, interlocking systems of the world. She wanted to construct systems as complex as the ones she saw in nature, to build machines as sublime as the living things she saw each and every day, so she eventually ended up at with the Asura, as their science faculties have done more research into this than any other race’s.

Read closely the Pale Tree’s plea to Scarlet: “_Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that._” The Pale Tree is trying to intervene to prevent Scarlet from learning something, something that Society isn’t ready for. Scarlet goes deeper and sees that she can be “dangerous” to the tree, and she relishes this, going deeper into the vision.

This essentially tells us that the Pale Tree knows at least something about what Scarlet is going to find. Thus, supposing for a moment that the Pale Tree is a champion of Mordremoth, the earlier idea that the Pale Tree does not know about this connection makes no sense anymore.

When she emerges, she says “_So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design. But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to._” Interpret this in the context of the theory, and we can deduce that Scarlet has seen the Sylvari’s connection to Mordremoth, and that the Pale Tree, and the Nightmare Court all in the end connect the Sylvari to Mordremoth. She seeks to sever those connections and free herself and her kin from that yoke. She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.

I would rather conclude that Scarlet is seeking to destroy the current system that is driving the world and substitute it with her own. After all, the short story tells us that her greatest joy as a student came from testing those established systems to expose their flaws in aid of strengthening her own designs. And that is something we can find back in every piece of machinery she has touched, most clearly in the Twisted Watchworks.

Edit: Small changes to things that didn’t make sense. I should really stay away from writing these kinds of things when tired.

I like your theory!

There are some points that I disagree with. I am pretty sure that the devs at one point or another said that they won’t allow a living world update to alter the personal story (and that is why personal story characters are mostly left out of the living world).

For that reason, I feel it is more likely that Scarlet will fail with her attack on the Pale Tree. We, the heroes, along with Destiny’s Edge 2.0 will arrive in time to save the day. That will keep the pale tree going strong for Sylvari starting and story-line.

For the arguments against this theory, a lot of them are using evidence based on how the other dragons operate. However, their is nothing to suggest that all dragons operate the same way. In fact, Tobias has pointed out that Primordius does not corrupt, but rather creates his minions. This is evidence to suggest that each dragon does not operate similarly. Therefore, the argument that ‘it cannot be this way for the jungle dragon, because the other dragons do not work this way’ should not be assumed as true.

Well, I suppose some of my earlier points would be moot if the trees producing Sylvari turn out to be seeds taken from Mordremoth during the last cycle and then purified and kept in a safe place by one of the races from that cycle. It’s a possibility, but unless we get more information we just won’t know.

Scarlet:

So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design. But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.

An interesting thought. What if she were to try disconnecting the Sylvari from the Dream of Dreams and the Nightmare instead, to destroy fate and free her people from the paths determined for them (Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunt)?

Errannar.8263:

Scarlet:

So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design. But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.

An interesting thought. What if she were to try disconnecting the Sylvari from the Dream of Dreams and the Nightmare instead, to destroy fate and free her people from the paths determined for them (Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunt)?

Then you get the Soundless, if I’m not mistaken.

saye.9304:

first of all: why would Mordremoth create seed that give birth to a tree which gives birth to unfaithful minions who are not just ignore orders of Mordremoth but they have become heroes of triya and assist other races to kill elder dragons,they are in fact very important to pact because they are immune to corruption((very helpful in orr in some paths of personal story))
now this is very important to notice:there are other pale trees as u will rescue a sylvari whos not from pale tree and he dose not know the pale tree ,he is from another tree and he is not corrupted too.
the nightmare court are in minority and most of sylvari are the most peaceful race in the entire game.
that makes Mordremoth a pretty stupid dragon who not just give birth to his own death but also gave birth to minion that eventually will kill other elder dragons as well.
its like :
OOPS SORRY MY DRAGONS FRIEND. I AM A BIT kittenED AND INVOLVED IN KILLING U ALL SORRY.

In short the Moon moon of dragons?

Errannar.8263:

An interesting thought. What if she were to try disconnecting the Sylvari from the Dream of Dreams and the Nightmare instead, to destroy fate and free her people from the paths determined for them (Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunt)?

Possible, but it doesn’t seem in line with Scarlet’s behavior so far. So far she comes across as insane, anti social, and homicidal. I don’t really see how some lofty goal to free Sylvari fits into that line of thought. That’s not to say that it isn’t possible (in fact, I hope she has a noble reason for her violent behavior), but it doesn’t seem to match the Scarlet we’ve seen so far. That’s also one of my biggest arguments against the “Scarlet wants to destroy the Pale Tree” hypothesis. It’s not impossible, but does it fit the character of Scarlet?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Errannar.8263:

An interesting thought. What if she were to try disconnecting the Sylvari from the Dream of Dreams and the Nightmare instead, to destroy fate and free her people from the paths determined for them (Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunt)?

Possible, but it doesn’t seem in line with Scarlet’s behavior so far. So far she comes across as insane, anti social, and homicidal. I don’t really see how some lofty goal to free Sylvari fits into that line of thought. That’s not to say that it isn’t possible (in fact, I hope she has a noble reason for her violent behavior), but it doesn’t seem to match the Scarlet we’ve seen so far. That’s also one of my biggest arguments against the “Scarlet wants to destroy the Pale Tree” hypothesis. It’s not impossible, but does it fit the character of Scarlet?

So you are saying that Scarlet has a predictable line of thought?

Shadowbane.7109:

So you are saying that Scarlet has a predictable line of thought?

What I’m saying is, up to this point she’s not given any inclination to care for anyone at all. All of her actions seem to have served her own egocentric interests. And she seems to enjoy mocking people attempting to stop her as well. Reading her backstory, it seems she doesn’t care about the Pale Tree or the Sylvari at all. Instead she seems to seek out new knowledge, and pursue her own path.

If it turns out she is trying to free the Sylvari, or destroy the Pale Tree, it would come totally out of thin air.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Shadowbane.7109:

So you are saying that Scarlet has a predictable line of thought?

What I’m saying is, up to this point she’s not given any inclination to care for anyone at all. All of her actions seem to have served her own egocentric interests. And she seems to enjoy mocking people attempting to stop her as well. Reading her backstory, it seems she doesn’t care about the Pale Tree or the Sylvari at all. Instead she seems to seek out new knowledge, and pursue her own path.

But her backstory suggests that she is interested in the queen, the dredge, the charr, the krait and NC? She is a character with random thinking. We rally can’t presume what her next move is going to be.

On the other hand. I personally like this idea. @Malafide you made your point and you showed a few arguments. The nice thing would be to end this senseless debate over who is right or wrong. The lore community said their arguments and the supporters of this idea showed theirs. Going on for 2 more page will not convince anyone of anything.

Shadowbane.7109:

But her backstory suggests that she is interested in the queen, the dredge, the charr, the krait and NC? She is a character with random thinking. We rally can’t presume what her next move is going to be.

Actually it doesn’t. She mocked the Queen, but did not seem to make an honest effort to actually kill her or kidnap her. Disrupting the festivities seemed to be all that she was after, and creating chaos. She wanted to shame the Queen and create a spectacle. But did she have any serious plans with the Queen? It didn’t seem like she did.

Regarding the Dredge, Flamelegion, Krait, Nightmare Court. She didn’t seem interested in them either. All she seemed interested in, was their technology, and lifting them to a higher level. She created the Molten Duo out of the Flamelegion and Dredge. She created the Hybrid out of the Krait and Nightmare Court. But as soon as she was done, she abandoned them easily. What she seems interested in (at least to me) is the final product, and then she moves on.

She also seems interested in the Watchwork Knights, as is evident by her army of Watchwork horrors, and the upcoming giant Watchwork marionette. But to what end? And why attack Lornar’s Pass? Is she marching on Lion’s Arch? And if so, why?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Errannar.8263:

An interesting thought. What if she were to try disconnecting the Sylvari from the Dream of Dreams and the Nightmare instead, to destroy fate and free her people from the paths determined for them (Wyld Hunt/Dark Hunt)?

Possible, but it doesn’t seem in line with Scarlet’s behavior so far. So far she comes across as insane, anti social, and homicidal. I don’t really see how some lofty goal to free Sylvari fits into that line of thought. That’s not to say that it isn’t possible (in fact, I hope she has a noble reason for her violent behavior), but it doesn’t seem to match the Scarlet we’ve seen so far. That’s also one of my biggest arguments against the “Scarlet wants to destroy the Pale Tree” hypothesis. It’s not impossible, but does it fit the character of Scarlet?

I don’t know but

“My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”

sounds like she does care about the Sylvari having a predetermined fate, or that’s what I get from “my people” and “we can change the rules” instead of “I don’t have to take what I’m given”.

The one part that always seems to remain the same, is her interest in interlocking systems and experimenting with them to improve her own designs. The Toxic Hybrid seems to suggest that this might not be limited to just mechanical technology. Which can explain why she added the Steam Creatures to her army as well, as they are partially biological in nature.

The Humans probably drew her attention with the Watchknights, as their clockwork system seems right up her alley. I wonder if gaining the Watchknights sped up her plans somehow. I would assume something changed, at least. We’ll likely never know, but I hope we can find some intel.

I would assume that the giant marionette has something to do with the ley lines, the thumpers and that strange platform it was stepping on, but I don’t think we’ll find out how and what until the story continues.

Stx.4857:

I wish they actually had a story like that planned out.

Its painfully obvious that they are making up this crappy character’s plotline as it goes.

This.

Mochann.5298:

Stx.4857:

I wish they actually had a story like that planned out.

Its painfully obvious that they are making up this crappy character’s plotline as it goes.

This.

They probably did plot it out, from “What Scarlet Saw” I can pretty much guess there was an endgame in mind when she was introduced and given the way the teams have to work to keep the content ready?

It had to have been done before that short story was posted. Ergo, there was a plotline made up before it began. More than likely all which is happening is tweaks and nudges.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mochann.5298:

This.

They probably did plot it out, from “What Scarlet Saw” I can pretty much guess there was an endgame in mind when she was introduced and given the way the teams have to work to keep the content ready?

It had to have been done before that short story was posted. Ergo, there was a plotline made up before it began. More than likely all which is happening is tweaks and nudges.

They have. I can’t remember where, but it was said that they locked into the major plot points and the personalities of the characters in the story a long time ago. The problem has mainly been with the (lack of) exposition in-game, hidden character development and using a method of writing that didn’t work too well for these kind of releases. They are improving, though.

Also, I want to say that I think constructive feedback would help the writers more than when people are just complaining. State what you dislike and why. Come up with ideas to improve the story and the Living World.

Angel.4918:

If you look closely at Scarlet’s story (without assuming that we screwed her up, as some have expressed), you will see a trend in her personality. She doesn’t stay the same throughout, but she definitely moves in a specific direction personality wise. Scarlet will never again be as clear-thinking and clever as she was when this all started. And that’s all the hint I’m going to give you on that.

I just remembered that there was this hint that Angel gave us. So Scarlet may have started out wanting to free the Sylvari, but she is slipping into madness and it probably isn’t her goal anymore.

The “quoting” was unintentional, more of a reply that I failed to unquote, but if you want me to argue points, then I can oblige that:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Someone already did. There’s an entire thread that addresses this issue.

There is. And as I’ve already said, I’m impressed with it. One of the ideas why Sylvari couldn’t be minions is that they die instead of being corrupted. Why is this proof? You don’t see risen Destroyers, or Branded risen anywhere around. Maybe it’s not that the Sylvari are immune to corruption, but that they’re immune to corruption by other dragons. Just an example, not a comprehensive argument, obviously.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “The Pale Tree came about around the same time that the dragons awoke.”

Not true, the Elder Dragons awoke over a long time span. Not all of them woke simultaniously, and the awakening of Primordus was delayed. So you can pretty much cherry pick any date and say, “what a coincidence, one of the elder dragons awoke around that time”.

Actually, as I believe Crespus pointed out, the Pale Tree was planted over 250 years ago, which would place its “birth”, so to speak, at around the time the Elder Dragons began to awake. It’s not coincidence, so much as it’s the flow of Guild Wars history. Maybe this correlates, maybe not, but as we still don’t know how Mordremoth spreads corruption, it’s entirely possible that this tree (or one of the many from the seeds) was meant to be a champion of his.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “Destroyers reproduce with eggs from a central location/breeder. Similarly, the Sylvari are collectively “awaken” from the Pale Tree. This leads me to believe that the Pale Tree and other trees like it are meant to produce Mordremoth’s minions: corrupt Sylvari.”

This is silly. Sylvari are plants, so naturally they grow on a tree. A seed growing on a tree is not similar to a Destroyer growing from an egg. If the Pale Tree’s purpose was to spawn corrupt Sylvari, then it’s doing a really bad job at it.

How is hatching from eggs not similar to growing out of a tree? Eggs nurture life inside them until the hatchlings are large enough to burst forth from the shell. Likewise, the sylvari grow inside golden fruit on the Pale Tree’s boughs and emerge when they are fully “ripe”, and a seedling nurtures plant growth inside it until the plant bursts forth from it’s “shell” and continues to grow independently of it. This is a completely valid analogy. And of course the Pale Tree is doing a bad job at creating corrupted Sylvari: if the theory posits that it’s a freed champion of Mordremoth, it’s goal is to do the exact opposite!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “If the Sylvari naturally progress to a Nightmare state when they turn away from the Dream, then it follows that the natural state of the Sylvari is in Nightmare. Their natural state is corruption.”

This is faulty logic. Sylvari have a choice. They can follow the Dream, or follow the Nightmare. This does not make the Nightmare their natural state.

This isn’t faulty logic. The Sylvari who turn to nightmare never return, yet as normal Sylvari, they seem perfectly capable of choosing one or the other. Think of it like this: If the Pale Tree is a freed champion, like Glint, and if we know little about the Sylvari, then it stands to reason that the Pale Tree might instill her children with the free will Mordremoth would never give them. However, if they are seduced to the Nightmare Court, perhaps this is a sign Mordremoth has seized control of them once more. Their free will is gone, and as such, there is no returning from the Nightmare.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “The Pale Tree plays a central role in Scarlet’s story thus far.”

No it doesn’t. So far it is only mentioned in her story casually, because she is a Sylvari. But after that the Pale Tree is never mentioned again. Certainly not in any of the Living Story.

Are you talking about in-game? Because the game is, admittedly, doing a crappy job of presenting Scarlet’s story. Her ACTUAL story presents her struggle against the Pale Tree and the Nightmare Court. Scarlet’s whole thing is that she wants to be free from people telling her what to do and how to live, which is why she closed her mind to the Pale Tree’s influence. In fact, according to the story, Scarlet heard the Pale Tree’s voice only once more, right before she looked into the Eternal Alchemy, and the Pale Tree told her that if she continued, she would see things the world wasn’t yet ready for.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “The biggest theme in our clearest look at Scarlet’s motives (this short story) is Scarlet’s need to rebel and escape the Pale Tree’s dream, and any outside determination on her life.”

A much stronger theme to look at, is all the alliances Scarlet has formed, the many sciences she has studied, and the way she’s tried to alter these races. A good example is the Krait Hybrid.

Why is this a stronger theme? All of the alliances are only means to an end for Scarlet—the theme of her story is rebellion and escape, not altering races into hybrid creatures. That’s the theme of the Living Story, not the actual short story about Scarlet.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• “She wants to kill the Pale Tree, abolish the Nightmare court, and destroy Mordremoth. And history shows that she doesn’t care how she does this.”

She’s already free of the Pale Tree. Why would she want to kill it? History shows that she does not care much for anyone, Sylvari included.

Not quite. Above, I mentioned that she only blocked the Pale Tree out. Since the Tree is so big on free will, she doesn’t attempt to draw Scarlet back (or can’t), but it remains that she is at least present in Scarlet, as she attempts to stop her from viewing the Eternal Alchemy.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig already proposed a much more convincing theory, that Mordremoth is simply trying to reach Sylvari by corrupting them mentally, but without the Pale Tree being a willing participant. The idea of Mordremoth using mental manipulation seems to fit a sort of Cthulhu theme, and makes sense. But the Pale Tree being a dragon minion, is absurd.

In your opinion, yes. We have no idea how Mordremoth operates, although it seems that he uses at least some level of deception to create minions. But why is it so absurd that the Pale Tree is a dragon minion? The dialogue we get in the game already suggests that she wants to fight the dragons with us. But when we ask the Pale Tree about the events in the Sylvari opening quest, she claims that Zhaitan is the one corrupting the Dream. If you actually look at the design of the Shadow of the Dragon, it looks nothing like a champion or minion of Zhaitan, it looks more like a jungle dragon minion. One can make the argument that the Pale Tree isn’t all knowing and therefore wouldn’t suppose that the corruption is being caused by a yet unknown dragon, but you could also make the case that she doesn’t want anyone to know. If indeed Scarlet saw a connection between the Tree and Mordremoth, then it stands to reason that this might be what the Tree tried to stop Scarlet from seeing.

Another item I thought of: This is Konig’s response to some ideas about Sylvari corruption:

Side note:
The main reason why I don’t affiliate the Pale Tree with this all is threefold:
1. Malyck shows no signs of being like the Nightmare Court which, by definition of the Pale Tree being a dragon champion turned good like the all-too-common hypothesis claims, would be the “natural sylvari.”
2. While I believe the Dream of Dreams is being used by Mordremoth to spread his corruption, the White Stag proves that the Dream of Dreams is not unique to sylvari, and Malyck proves that not all sylvari are tied to the Dream of Dreams.
3. There are too many things not tied to the Pale Tree being corrupted (spiders, wurms, treants, grubs).

1. We know almost nothing about Malyck. He seems to be a glitch in the system, unknown to both the Nightmare Court and the Pale Tree. In fact, the Nightmare Court seems to herald him as the Harbinger, given that he has no access to the Dream. If anything, Malyck seems to be a natural-born “Soundless”, but who knows why this happened? It doesn’t disprove the fact that the Pale Tree might be a minion of Mordremoth, given that it’s just one Sylvari born out of the system. Knowing why Malyck turned out the way he did would require knowing more about how the Pale Tree creates Sylvari.
2. I think this is a matter of interpretation. The Stag, Bercillak, and the Shield of the Moon are all symbols present in the Dream that fuel your personal quest, but that doesn’t mean they come from the dream. Since the Pale Tree has absorbed knowledge for 250 years, then she is still doing this, presumably, and imparts some of this knowledge on her young. It seems to be implied that this is how the Sylvari gain knowledge, but if she is only the dream’s caretaker, as she says, how is this knowledge regulated? If it isn’t, then wouldn’t the Sylvari awaken with far more knowledge than they have?
3. Well, yes, there are. The Pale Tree isn’t a dragon itself, it’s a minion at most and just a tree at the least. Corruption doesn’t derive from champions, it derives from the dragons.

Whew, there’s a nice comprehensive argumentation. I think I understand how the quote system works better too, after all that!

To answer your question, I think upsetment derives from the fact that a lot of your arguments seem to take little pieces and pick at them without giving thought to the theory as a whole. For example, your argument concerning the Pale Tree doing a “terrible job” at creating corrupted Sylvari doesn’t keep in mind the fact that the theory is supposing that the Tree is a free will dragon champion. Usually, argumentation concerning a theory disagrees or agrees based on the parameters set by the theory, not by external factors. Those are used as evidence to the contrary, but ignoring or not thinking about the parameters just makes it seem like you aren’t paying attention to what the theory is trying to say. That’s all, not trying to be rude, just putting in my own two cents.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Shadowbane.7109:

But her backstory suggests that she is interested in the queen, the dredge, the charr, the krait and NC? She is a character with random thinking. We rally can’t presume what her next move is going to be.

Actually it doesn’t. She mocked the Queen, but did not seem to make an honest effort to actually kill her or kidnap her. Disrupting the festivities seemed to be all that she was after, and creating chaos. She wanted to shame the Queen and create a spectacle. But did she have any serious plans with the Queen? It didn’t seem like she did.

Regarding the Dredge, Flamelegion, Krait, Nightmare Court. She didn’t seem interested in them either. All she seemed interested in, was their technology, and lifting them to a higher level. She created the Molten Duo out of the Flamelegion and Dredge. She created the Hybrid out of the Krait and Nightmare Court. But as soon as she was done, she abandoned them easily. What she seems interested in (at least to me) is the final product, and then she moves on.

She also seems interested in the Watchwork Knights, as is evident by her army of Watchwork horrors, and the upcoming giant Watchwork marionette. But to what end? And why attack Lornar’s Pass? Is she marching on Lion’s Arch? And if so, why?

You really stopped reading properly. I never stated that scarlet was interested in these factions. Quite the opposite. Notice the question mark at the end of the sentence.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Another item I thought of: This is Konig’s response to some ideas about Sylvari corruption:

Side note:
The main reason why I don’t affiliate the Pale Tree with this all is threefold:
1. Malyck shows no signs of being like the Nightmare Court which, by definition of the Pale Tree being a dragon champion turned good like the all-too-common hypothesis claims, would be the “natural sylvari.”
2. While I believe the Dream of Dreams is being used by Mordremoth to spread his corruption, the White Stag proves that the Dream of Dreams is not unique to sylvari, and Malyck proves that not all sylvari are tied to the Dream of Dreams.
3. There are too many things not tied to the Pale Tree being corrupted (spiders, wurms, treants, grubs).

1. We know almost nothing about Malyck. He seems to be a glitch in the system, unknown to both the Nightmare Court and the Pale Tree. In fact, the Nightmare Court seems to herald him as the Harbinger, given that he has no access to the Dream. If anything, Malyck seems to be a natural-born “Soundless”, but who knows why this happened? It doesn’t disprove the fact that the Pale Tree might be a minion of Mordremoth, given that it’s just one Sylvari born out of the system. Knowing why Malyck turned out the way he did would require knowing more about how the Pale Tree creates Sylvari.
2. I think this is a matter of interpretation. The Stag, Bercillak, and the Shield of the Moon are all symbols present in the Dream that fuel your personal quest, but that doesn’t mean they come from the dream. Since the Pale Tree has absorbed knowledge for 250 years, then she is still doing this, presumably, and imparts some of this knowledge on her young. It seems to be implied that this is how the Sylvari gain knowledge, but if she is only the dream’s caretaker, as she says, how is this knowledge regulated? If it isn’t, then wouldn’t the Sylvari awaken with far more knowledge than they have?
3. Well, yes, there are. The Pale Tree isn’t a dragon itself, it’s a minion at most and just a tree at the least. Corruption doesn’t derive from champions, it derives from the dragons.

Whew, there’s a nice comprehensive argumentation. I think I understand how the quote system works better too, after all that!

To answer your question, I think upsetment derives from the fact that a lot of your arguments seem to take little pieces and pick at them without giving thought to the theory as a whole. For example, your argument concerning the Pale Tree doing a “terrible job” at creating corrupted Sylvari doesn’t keep in mind the fact that the theory is supposing that the Tree is a free will dragon champion. Usually, argumentation concerning a theory disagrees or agrees based on the parameters set by the theory, not by external factors. Those are used as evidence to the contrary, but ignoring or not thinking about the parameters just makes it seem like you aren’t paying attention to what the theory is trying to say. That’s all, not trying to be rude, just putting in my own two cents.

1. Malyck
Malyck did not sprout from the Pale Tree, or she would’ve known him. A Sylvari seer surmised that he’s from another Tree, and that the seed the Pale Tree came from was one of many. He possesses the same virtues the Pale Tree has, loyalty, courage, etc., but not the Dream. So he wonders whether his Tree had a Dream at all.
Malyck also isn’t interested in or drawn to the Nightmare. So this might be a sign that the evil nature of the Nightmare Court is not something natural to Sylvari.
The Nightmare Court is after him because a Tree that does not possess Ventari’s tablet would likely be easier to corrupt.

2. The Dream of Dreams
The Stag is not created by the Pale Tree, but a creature of pure magic and a conduit between Tyria and the Dream. It exists in both worlds, like the Pale Tree.
Bercilak is a Sylvari who turned to the Nightmare, it’s his magical armour that makes him special. That his image is in the Dream is no big surprise. The Sylvari he’s slain are still connected to the Dream, he’s still connected to the Nightmare and it’s said that the Dream can show the future.
The Shield was a sign pointing toward the person who needed the player’s help the most at the time.
As for why the Sylvari aren’t all-knowing, Ree Soesbee has actually told us why.

<Continued>

3. Minions and corruption
Risen spread Zhaitan’s corruption, because those killed while fighting them will almost always immediately be transformed into Risen themselves.
Jormag usually works through his minions, seducing the races with whispers of power. The Dragonspawn however, one of his champions, was able to turn others into Icebrood with its breath.
The Shatterer is said to keep Kralkatorrik’s corruption active in the Brand, so it likely spreads corruption (it’s crystals?).
Primordus can corrupt beings, but does not usually do so.
So depending on the dragon, minions can corrupt or spread corruption. The Pale Tree does not appear to spread any corruption, however. Still, we cannot decisively conclude whether the Pale Tree is a former dragon champion or not from this.

The main problem is that you can argue both ways, depending on the weight you give certain statements made both in and outside the game. And that seems to happen quite a lot when lore is involved.

It’s still pretty interesting, though.

Shadowbane.7109:

You really stopped reading properly. I never stated that scarlet was interested in these factions. Quite the opposite. Notice the question mark at the end of the sentence.

The way you phrased it was really confusing, though. It appeared to be a statement rather than a question, so I for one assumed the question mark was an unintentional error. You might want to keep the other person’s perception of something in mind, before saying something that will probably be construed as a personal attack.

Errannar.8263:

<Continued>

Shadowbane.7109:

You really stopped reading properly. I never stated that scarlet was interested in these factions. Quite the opposite. Notice the question mark at the end of the sentence.

The way you phrased it was really confusing, though. It appeared to be a statement rather than a question, so I for one assumed the question mark was an unintentional error. You might want to keep the other person’s perception of something in mind, before saying something that will probably be construed as a personal attack.

Apologies if i have offended someone with my words since this was not my intent. the question I wrote was more obvious in my head but since I am not common on forums I did not know that it might be confusing.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

In your opinion, yes. We have no idea how Mordremoth operates, although it seems that he uses at least some level of deception to create minions. But why is it so absurd that the Pale Tree is a dragon minion? The dialogue we get in the game already suggests that she wants to fight the dragons with us. But when we ask the Pale Tree about the events in the Sylvari opening quest, she claims that Zhaitan is the one corrupting the Dream. If you actually look at the design of the Shadow of the Dragon, it looks nothing like a champion or minion of Zhaitan, it looks more like a jungle dragon minion.

Keep in mind that we’re talking about a force disrupting the Dream. There is no rule that states that any nightmares created in the Dream have to look exactly like the minions of the origin of the nightmare. The fact that the creature in the Dream looks like “a dragon” is enough to link it to any one of the Elder Dragons. Although, as far as we know, only the minions of Primordus do not resemble dragons (so far). So as I see it, it could be the product of any of the other Elder Dragons. I wouldn’t attach too much significance to the fact that it is a plant-like dragon, since it’s dream imagery, and a corruption of what was already there. And to be fair, the plant-dragon in the Dream does look a lot like Tequatl if it were covered in plants.

However, I should also note that the dragon has a glow that seems similar to Summoned Husks, and a connection between those creatures and a future Jungle Dragon have been made as well. So there is definitely something there that supports the idea that Mordremoth might be responsible for nightmares.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

One can make the argument that the Pale Tree isn’t all knowing and therefore wouldn’t suppose that the corruption is being caused by a yet unknown dragon, but you could also make the case that she doesn’t want anyone to know. If indeed Scarlet saw a connection between the Tree and Mordremoth, then it stands to reason that this might be what the Tree tried to stop Scarlet from seeing.

If the Pale Tree is a ‘freed’ champion of the jungle dragon, why do nightmares still affect the Dream? If she’s freed, shouldn’t her connection with the Elder Dragon be severed? This seems like a contradiction. This is why I find it more likely that the jungle dragon is simply an outside influence trying to sneak into the Dream, rather than the Pale Tree having this direct connection to the elder dragon.

Sylvari are dragon minions.