Guild Wars 2

On the livestream yesterday the guy who is responsible for all our skill balance stated that a 66% increase in skill recharge and a 66% decrease in skill recharge would cancel each other out so that you have a normal skill recharge…

I think that pretty much sums up why they’ve had so much problem balancing the game…

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

On the livestream yesterday the guy who is responsible for all our skill balance stated that a 66% increase in skill recharge and a 66% decrease in skill recharge would cancel each other out so that you have a normal skill recharge…

I think that pretty much sums up why they’ve had so much problem balancing the game…

You would still move 66% slower though with the chill effect so… why is this scary?

Thanathos.2063:

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of alacrity will take 10*0.34 = 3.4s to recharge.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of Chill will take 10*1.66 = 16.6s to recharge

a 10s skill under the effects of both Chill and alacrity will take 10*0.34*1.66 = 5.6s to recharge

They do NOT cancel each other out. A increase % and a decrease % are not the same thing

Edit: fixed numbers

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Thanathos.2063:

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of alactriy will take 10*0.66 = 6.6s to recharge.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of Chill will take 10*1.66 = 16.6s to recharge

a 10s skill under the effects of both Chill and alacrity will take 10*0.66*1.66 = 11s to recharge

They do NOT cancel each other out. A increase % and a decrease % are not the same thing

In your example, the skill recharge increase of alacrity is 34% not 66%.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Thanathos.2063:

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of alactriy will take 10*0.66 = 6.6s to recharge.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of Chill will take 10*1.66 = 16.6s to recharge

a 10s skill under the effects of both Chill and alacrity will take 10*0.66*1.66 = 11s to recharge

They do NOT cancel each other out. A increase % and a decrease % are not the same thing

Your also moving slower with chill on the ideal is not the cancel out effects boons are to just buff the player. Look at the other boons vs the debuff Swiftness is 33% movement where Crippled is -50% these do not cancel each other out yet this “fear” your having has not showed up in the game by you or others.

You might be right if the effects work mathematically accurately, but how can you be sure that the game doesn’t do an overall calculation before it applies the results?

For example. The game recognises you have both alacrity and chill on you and automatically cancels their effects out, like balancing an equation.

I’m sure for a mathematical purist you will deny that this could never possibly be the case, and I don’t care one way or the other, but it feels like you’ve not considered the several ways in which this system could work.

Wanze.8410:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Thanathos.2063:

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of alactriy will take 10*0.66 = 6.6s to recharge.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of Chill will take 10*1.66 = 16.6s to recharge

a 10s skill under the effects of both Chill and alacrity will take 10*0.66*1.66 = 11s to recharge

They do NOT cancel each other out. A increase % and a decrease % are not the same thing

In your example, the skill recharge increase of alacrity is 34% not 66%.

Opps you are quite correct. Yeah it should be 10*.34 = 3.4s recharge time.

Of course I don’t know how it works out in their programing. It might cancel out, but the way he stated it they don’t cancel out.

Also the slow for chill doesn’t cancel out, but he didn’t say it should so I assume they have a reason for that.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Thanathos.2063:

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of alactriy will take 10*0.66 = 6.6s to recharge.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of Chill will take 10*1.66 = 16.6s to recharge

a 10s skill under the effects of both Chill and alacrity will take 10*0.66*1.66 = 11s to recharge

They do NOT cancel each other out. A increase % and a decrease % are not the same thing

You’re assuming that’s how it’s calculated. It could be calced off the BASE value too, which would cancel it.

it is calculated off the base value i guess

its the same for condition duration

Obtena.7952:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Thanathos.2063:

Why? He’s right, when you assume that those percentages refer to the raw skill stats and not to the current displaying times.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of alactriy will take 10*0.66 = 6.6s to recharge.

a 10s skill recharge under the effects of Chill will take 10*1.66 = 16.6s to recharge

a 10s skill under the effects of both Chill and alacrity will take 10*0.66*1.66 = 11s to recharge

They do NOT cancel each other out. A increase % and a decrease % are not the same thing

You’re assuming that’s how it’s calculated. It could be calced off the BASE value too, which would cancel it.

I suppose that is possible. Does anyone know if condition duration is calculated that way? If someone has lemongrass and pizza do they directly cancel or is the condition duration still shortened? If someone has any data I would appreciate seeing it.

No, 10s skill recharge under alacrity with 66% decrease would mean 10*0.33 = 3.3s
or, a reduction of 6.6s
An increase of 66% would mean, 10*1,66 -> 16,6s.

So yeah, if you assume that the conditions get applied one by one you have to calculate (10*0,33)*1,66 and that would not be 10.
But if it’s something like 10 + (10*0.66) - (10*0.66) it would be 10. This may seem unlikely, but I think it’s still possible that they simply add basic time plus additional time for chill (or negative aditional time for alacrity).

I think it’s probable that they calculate it as 10 * (1 + .66 – .66), which is actually the same as what Thanathos said.

1. I’m pretty sure chill and alacrity both change the recharge rate of skills, not the recharge time directly. So, chill reduces the recharge rate to 0.34 of normal, making a 10 second cooldown take ~30 seconds if you’re chilled the entire time. Alacrity would increase the recharge rate to 1.66 (I think that’s the increase it gives, I don’t remember if I’ve seen it,) so a 10 second cooldown would happen in only ~6 seconds.

2. Not all effects are applied multiplicatively on top of each other, the very similar example of condition duration increases and decreases are done additively/only applied to the base duration. This is why someone with a +40% duration food and someone with a -40% duration food cancel each other out. Damage modifiers do work multiplicatively however, so three 10% boosts provide 33.1% extra damage, and protection reduces that by 33%, down to 89% of your initial damage.

I’m pretty sure all that’s correct.

It’s obviously calculated off the base rate, not sequentially. If it were done sequentially, you would get a different result based on whether chill or alacrity were applied first, which makes no sense from a design perspective, especially since you can’t tell by looking at your active buffs and conditions which one was applied first.

Just like different sources of boon duration and condition duration stack additively rather than multiplicatively, in this case -66% + 66% = 0% would be calculated BEFORE being applied to the skill recharge time.

I assume they do the base time, multiplied by a “speed up / slow down” number. Without effects, like so:

10s * (1) = 10s

With slowdown:

10s * (1 – .66..) = 3.33..s

With speed up:

10s * (1 + .66..) = 16.6..s

With both:

10s * (1 – .66 ..+.66..) = 10s

If the dev says they cancel each other out, it doesn’t take mathematical wizardry to figure out how that’s possible.

10s
10-10*0.66=3,333s
10+10*0.66=16.666s
10-10*0.666+10*0.666=10s

Assuming both are taken on the base skill recharge. If that’s not the case, which it might be, you’re right. Fair to say it is though.

afaik the only thing that scales multiplicatively are damage modifiers. e.g 2 50% mods would be total 225%

Yep. 10s skill math

10+10*.66=16.6
10-10*.66=3.4

10+10*.66-10*.66=10s

It depends entirely on how the buffs/debuffs are applied.

• If applied cumulatively, then -66% followed by +66% results in <0 % (and vice versa if applied in the opposite order).
• If applied to the base time, then it becomes mathematically additive and the buff entirely reverses the debuff (and vice versa).

The game is inconsistent about how it applies things like this. MF bonuses are additive, movement speed buffs are ‘best only’ (does not add nor does it accumulate).

Because often % buffs/debuffs are first summed and then applied and not applied one at a time. So +66% and -66% will cancel themselves out.

I wish this was more consistent across the game.. it seems damage is multiplicative, conditions are additive, movement speed is “best only”, MF is additive… I guess it’s anyones guess what alacrity and chill are…

What are boons? How do vuln and prot stack?

I really think most of you guys here don’t know how chill works, so you misunderstand how alacrity works either.

What chill does is make your skill recharge rate “per second” increases, meaning for every 1 second, you’d only expire 0.33 second of its CD. For example, a 10 CD skill will take 30 sec to recharge if you’re chilled for that full 30 secs.

source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled

For alacrity, it simply makes your recharge rate from 1 second to 1.66 second. For example, a 10 sec CD skill now recharges in 6.02 seconds. (10/1.66) IF you’re getting alacrity for that full 6 seconds. (If you move out, your recharge rate back to 1 second)

It does not cut/ triple your cd directly, it just makes real time CD recharge rate modified from regular every second to every 0.33 second or 1.66 second, that’s all.
Plus from what we saw, most alacrity skills have very short duration, like 3 seconds only.

Last note: I think the community’s math is more horrored than the developers..

The interesting thing, is things like condition duration are +40% or -40%, so they stack additively. Damage modifiers don’t have that + or -, so they’re multiplicative. We could likely assume mathematically chill and alacrity have that + and – in the code, with prot and vuln maybe being similar.