Should builds be gated behind heavy grinding?

Should builds be gated behind heavy grinding?

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Posted by: GoZero.9708

GoZero.9708

Just before I get into anything: I’m not referring to ascended equipment, I’m referring to unique exotics and upgrade components.

One of the issues that comes up often is the handful of unusually difficult to obtain basic necessities for certain builds. You know the ones. Celestial stats held behind 5 charged quartz crystals (which recent changes have made exorbitantly expensive), Zealot stats held behind getting 500 watchwork sprockets, and Sentinel stats held behind getting 10 guild commendations. Likewise a good number of useful sigils and runes are held behind large amounts of watchwork sprockets and pristine toxic spores (neither of which have been readily available outside of niche locations for years). This is something that always frustrated people and I was believing it to be getting better with the release of easier to obtain stat combinations, sigils, and runes that came with the release of permanent content that included stats such as Sinister and Nomad.

It was a mistake to believe that, however, as the release of Heart of Thorns has doubled down on the inaccessibility of stats and confoundingly made certain exotic stats more complicated to make beyond obtaining a new inscription as previous new stats had done. The release of the four-stat combinations is a welcome change by many across all game types but it comes with a frustrating change: pointless new crafting materials. Oiled components, barbed thorns, charged thorns, leaf fossils, charged relics, and a number more. Another name for it all is clutter and unbalanced clutter at that. Charged Thorns and Charged Fossils (used in creating Commander and Wanderer stat combinations, respectively) are expensive upgraded form of Barbed Thorns and Leaf Fossils (used in creating Marauder and Crusader stat combinations, respectively). It seems like nonsense, like that certain stats should intrinsically be more expensive and valuable than others by virtue of being itself and not because gameplay and market demand decides it. Not to mention the charged items all require Charged Quartz Crystals, one of the most controversial time gated items in the game BEFORE the expansion came out but now the expansion has more than doubled the uses for Charged Quartz. To say they are in short supply is an understatement. Oiled components is another useless change, a full set of new crafting components for every single tier 6 crafting component that cost more due requiring linseed vials and do absolutely nothing that the old components could have done.

Heart of Thorns also contains a number of new runes and sigils that come as part of the map reward system: Rune of Thorns, Rune of Durability, Rune of Surging, Rune of Leadership, Sigil of Absorption, Sigil of Ruthlessness, Sigil of Draining, Sigil of Rending. All of these runes and sigils are varying degrees of useful to individuals but share one thing in common: exorbitant grinding. The currencies for these items are the map reward currencies for the four new world maps in Magus Falls but the matter is the amount of grinding required to get a pair of sigils or even worse a set of six runes it astounding compared to the acquisition rate of these currencies. I’m talking weeks of grinding for a set of runes, something that is seen by everybody as a very basic and essential part of a build. Acquiring a set of runes from a map reward vendor is by far the most time consuming thing related to map rewards across every single map. This isn’t for unique skins or special privileges, these are the things related to how you can build a character. It’s restrictive and it’s frustrating.

I was under the impression, with progressively easier to acquire exotic and runes and sigils being in the game since day one, that the game was designed around having fully built character a relatively easy thing to do so that players could focus on cosmetics (and later small boosts gained by ascended equipment). But this is being subverted time and time again, with one of the smartest things available to players: easy access to the ability to try new builds, being choked under pressure of harder to acquire stat combinations and upgrade components. When Guild Wars 2 came out, the available stat combinations were mostly equal and the players decided what would have value but the release of Heart of Thorns has skewed that common sense design choice in favor of needless grinding for new possible builds. I don’t feel like I can experiment between the capabilities of Minstrel’s and Wanderer’s like I was able to experiment between the capabilities of Cleric’s versus Soldier’s. I don’t feel like I can change my runes from Nightmare to Thorns like I can for Flame Legion to Balthazar. This seems like the wrong direction to be taking and the enjoyment of the game, especially with the introduction of actually needing a variety of builds in PvE for raids, will take its toll as more and more people decide that things like taking Rune of Leadership would be too much work and instead opt for less useful runes simply due to work needed to obtain those runes or the concentration bonus from Wanderer’s isn’t worth the extra work of simply making a set of Soldier’s equipment. The playing field needs to be far more balanced.

tl;dr: grind gating builds is bad

(edited by GoZero.9708)

Should builds be gated behind heavy grinding?

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Posted by: Kraggy.4169

Kraggy.4169

tl;dr: grind gating builds is bad

In that case what is the point of, say, raiding?

In GW2 ‘build = gear’ once skills are capped, so take away the need to grind gear I fail to see what raids or any other phat-lewt-chasing content is for.

Should builds be gated behind heavy grinding?

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Posted by: GoZero.9708

GoZero.9708

In GW2 ‘build = gear’ once skills are capped, so take away the need to grind gear I fail to see what raids or any other phat-lewt-chasing content is for.

Legendary skins. Ascended equipment. The exact same rewards at the end of the stick that has enticed players for 3 years.

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Posted by: Redfeather.6401

Redfeather.6401

It’s the result of lead game designers not understanding the true concept, nor the appeal, of horizontal progression.

And if by small chance an anet employee is reading this, you know it’s true. lol

(edited by Redfeather.6401)

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Posted by: GoZero.9708

GoZero.9708

It’s the result of lead game designers not understanding the true concept, nor the appeal, of horizontal progression.

And if by small chance an anet employee is reading this, you know it’s true. lol

Horizontal progression. Thank you, I knew there was a good work for having a level playing field for stats but couldn’t think of it.

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Posted by: Falanu.4289

Falanu.4289

Just food for thought…

How did the first players beat the existing content, before the current “requirements” were established?

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Posted by: kult.3465

kult.3465

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

This.

On top of that, the actual gold requirements are very easy to come by (even easier when stretched over a set period of time). This way casual players have just as good a way of obtaining the gear without having to grind heavily for gold.

As is, arenanet wants players to dabble in every game content. Guild commendations are no different.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

I couldn’t agree more. I’m fine with having to work hard for exclusive looks, but there shouldn’t be such a massive difference in price between stat types. This trend is obnoxious, as well as destructive to the build experimentation that keeps game play fresh. ANet should want to encourage theory crafting, not punish it with high price tags and grinding requirements.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

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Posted by: Reverielle.3972

Reverielle.3972

Once upon a time one would play the game and the content therein because it was fun. Then it seemed one only did primarily for the reward. Now it seems one only does it for partial incremental progress towards a reward, hence needing to do it over and over and over again, making the content that was initially fun now stale and boring.

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Posted by: Coldtart.4785

Coldtart.4785

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

Farming is now ‘earning’ something, apparently…

Never mind that some sets cost several times more than others despite being statistically equivalent.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

Farming is now ‘earning’ something, apparently…

Never mind that some sets cost several times more than others despite being statistically equivalent.

5 Minutes of running through Dry Top gathering Quartz and then going to your home instance and crafting a charged quartz 1nce per day is already farming.

I see. No wonder people are complaining about grinding in this game. That’s a very low bar.

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

Farming is now ‘earning’ something, apparently…

Never mind that some sets cost several times more than others despite being statistically equivalent.

5 Minutes of running through Dry Top gathering Quartz and then going to your home instance and crafting a charged quartz 1nce per day is already farming.

I see. No wonder people are complaining about grinding in this game. That’s a very low bar.

It can be that quick or take a lot longer than 5 minutes. As the only rich node in the game can only be accessed during the sand storm. so yeah, it’s not inconvenient in the slightest…….

i5 4690K @ 3.5Mhz|8GB HyperX Savage 1600mHz|MSI H81M-E34|MSI GTX 960 Gaming 2GB|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|

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Posted by: Redfeather.6401

Redfeather.6401

Kind of makes you wonder if its assumed that people only want one look, one build, one set of stats.
Because those kinds of people have no reason to stick around unless a game can constantly provide power scaling progression for them. And the mmorpg graveyard is full of games that tried such an approach.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

Farming is now ‘earning’ something, apparently…

Never mind that some sets cost several times more than others despite being statistically equivalent.

5 Minutes of running through Dry Top gathering Quartz and then going to your home instance and crafting a charged quartz 1nce per day is already farming.

I see. No wonder people are complaining about grinding in this game. That’s a very low bar.

It’s not a matter of how long it takes (though 10-15 minutes per day, counting loading screens) for 30 days is still 7.5 hours of farming), but rather that it takes so much more farming than any standard set. And the new sets are even worse. It’s to the point where you might as well go straight for Ascended versions in some cases.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

Farming is now ‘earning’ something, apparently…

Never mind that some sets cost several times more than others despite being statistically equivalent.

5 Minutes of running through Dry Top gathering Quartz and then going to your home instance and crafting a charged quartz 1nce per day is already farming.

I see. No wonder people are complaining about grinding in this game. That’s a very low bar.

It can be that quick or take a lot longer than 5 minutes. As the only rich node in the game can only be accessed during the sand storm. so yeah, it’s not inconvenient in the slightest…….

I never said it wasn’t inconvenient, I was simply wondering about what people consider farming. Even so, 4 hours of silverwastes gets you more than enough gold to buy all the quartz you need. That is per month. Or play any other content and use the gold gained to aquire the quartz.

It’s not a matter of how long it takes (though 10-15 minutes per day, counting loading screens) for 30 days is still 7.5 hours of farming), but rather that it takes so much more farming than any standard set. And the new sets are even worse. It’s to the point where you might as well go straight for Ascended versions in some cases.

Again, 7 hours sounds like a lot, but that’s per month. Also see top, buy the quartz off the TP if you can’t be bothered to mine it yourself. Even at spike prices of currently 10s per Quartz, that’s not that much per day (2.5 gold).

Yes, high value sets are more expensive. That’s why they are high value. If other stat combinations were as sought after, prices would spike on different materials.

The fact remains, if you don’t need your set right this moment (and didn’t prepare before hand), but are fine with gathering it over a set period of time, the game is perfect. Neither the required gold, nor the required time per day is exorbitant and any game mode played will provide you with the funds to gain your set.

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Posted by: Redfeather.6401

Redfeather.6401

Protip: Don’t bother with ascended. It’s a trap.

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Posted by: GoZero.9708

GoZero.9708

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

I’m not saying hand it on a silver platter, I’m saying that efforts should be made so that some platters aren’t on a 20 foot shelf while some are on a six foot shelf when the platters have the similar things arranged differently.

Absolutely.

You should earn your gear. Not have it handed to you on a silver platter.
You earn your levels and skills, gear is no different.

Especially when it comes to more exotic stat sets.

Farming is now ‘earning’ something, apparently…

Never mind that some sets cost several times more than others despite being statistically equivalent.

5 Minutes of running through Dry Top gathering Quartz and then going to your home instance and crafting a charged quartz 1nce per day is already farming.

I see. No wonder people are complaining about grinding in this game. That’s a very low bar.

Considering you have to do that five times for a single piece of Celestial anything? I think that’s grinding. Using a single charged quartz per insignia/inscription is fine, using five is sheer grinding. Like I said, I thought the Sinister stat was a good approach.

Protip: Don’t bother with ascended. It’s a trap.

While I have opinions on ascended, this conversation has nothing to do with it.

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Posted by: Misguided.5139

Misguided.5139

I don’t mind it at all. Having goals to work toward is a good thing. And it isn’t as if profession X is worthless unless you have hard to acquire stat set Y. It’s a question of balance, and it may well be that certain things are more cumbersome than they need to be (leadership runes, perhaps), but working toward a goal and achieving it can be quite satisfying.

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Posted by: Palador.2170

Palador.2170

Behind a light grind might be acceptable, behind a heavy grind is not.

The HoT zones are the toughest zones in the game. Many players need to improve their builds and gear to face them. How on Earth would it be a good idea to make the very gear they may need, and then lock it behind being able to survive the zones? Really good players don’t need this stuff for an edge to face HoT, they can deal with it already.

I just don’t understand the logic here. Really.

Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

The gear is being earned. Period. There is going to be some type of time and money invest in acquiring. There is with every piece.

That’s not really what’s in contention here, but rather the huge margins in difficulty between certain stat prefixes.

Berserker gear is made from a crafting material that routinely drops from all level 80 content. As a result, it’s really easy to obtain and you can purchase exotic items for 5-6 gold on average.

Comparing this to Zealots or Celestials, those items require collection of materials no longer available in content and require investing laurels to buy the home instance nodes. And even with that, they are time gamed to like 4-5 pieces a day. As a result, the base materials for a single piece of Zealots can easily run up to 20 gold.

What is the point of this? Why is there such a huge gap between two stat prefixes that are basically equal but different.

All it accomplishes is…

One, discouraging people from playing other builds besides besererkers, because the price of admission to play those builds is extremely high and ultimately not worth it, because beserkers will get you by in like 80% of the content.

Two, creating a huge barrier to entry for new players who reach 80. In the beginning of GW2, a full set of exotic could easily be gotten within a week, allowing players to easily transition into end game content. This is not the case at all now, unless you want to limit yourself to a certain set of builds that utilize prefixs that have been in game since launch and can easily be obtained via karma, dungeons, WvW and crafting.

You want to play a support and dps based Tempest that utilizes zealot armor for the healing power and offensive stats? Go kitten yourself; go get some beserker gear and grind out content with a build you didn’t really want to play so you can acquire the 120 gold required to purchase crafting material that aren’t even in the game anymore.

The fundamental principle behind level 80 that was present at launch is now gone. The idea was you can choose a variety of different methods to gear up whether it be karma, dungeons, WvW, sPvP or crafting. That principle has been abandoned with almost all the additional staff prefixes which are hidden behind absurd barriers. It does nothing, but discourage the meta from shifting into something more diverse than just pure DPS.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

(edited by MadRabbit.3179)

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

Again, 7 hours sounds like a lot, but that’s per month. Also see top, buy the quartz off the TP if you can’t be bothered to mine it yourself. Even at spike prices of currently 10s per Quartz, that’s not that much per day (2.5 gold).

And again, my issue isn’t with the 7 hours of farming per se but that it’s 7 hours (and 30 days of time gating) beyond most other stat sets. Celestial isn’t an inherently better gear set or anything, it’s just a different stat spread which ANet has made arbitrarily much harder to get.

Yes, high value sets are more expensive. That’s why they are high value. If other stat combinations were as sought after, prices would spike on different materials.

Except that’s not how the game works. Berserker is still the highest-value stat for the majority of professions, builds, and content. These new stat types do things differently, but they aren’t necessarily more powerful. They facilitate different ways of playing the game, but they don’t actually make playing the game any easier. Playing your profession in a new way should be something ANet is tripping over itself to encourage, not something to punish with huge farm, time, and money gates.

And even if it were how the game worked (like it kinda is for condi builds thanks to Sinister and especially Viper stats), that would be terrible. The Guild Wars franchise has laid its foundation in the idea that you shouldn’t have to grind for an eternity just to be competitive with those who do grind. ANet has already eroded that tenant significantly with the introduction of Ascended gear, but allowing that disparity to leak into even Exotic gear is sheer foolishness. Any other MMO on the market will allow you to grind eternally for better stats. Relative stat equality was supposed to be a big part of GW2’s niche.

The fact remains, if you don’t need your set right this moment (and didn’t prepare before hand), but are fine with gathering it over a set period of time, the game is perfect. Neither the required gold, nor the required time per day is exorbitant and any game mode played will provide you with the funds to gain your set.

I already have my set of Celestial armor, as well as enough charged crystals to create a second set if I so desire. I’m not annoyed that I have to wait, because I don’t. I even got most of the quartz back during the Bazaar of the Four Winds, so it was dirt cheap for me.

My objection is to this trend of making different stat types wildly more difficult and expensive to acquire is that it murders our ability to experiment and play around with different builds, which is terrible for the long-term viability of the game and makes it so much less fun to play overall.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)