Guild Wars 2

I’ll start off by saying that I’m not trying to convince people the simple nature of Guild Wars 2s combat mechanics is bad. I prefer complex myself, so my opinion is obviously very biased towards complex. But I just want to discuss the matter with you, although it might have been posted before. I tried searching, but the search function is not reliable enough. Also, this is not a post concerning the differences in mechanics between the original Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. It’s not a post about the addition of the holy trinity either. The only other MMO I have ever played is WoW. But that was a long time ago, so I barely remember anything of it.

So, let’s get started!

As most of you should know, GW2’s combat is based on your 10 skills. 5 of them depend on your weapon of choice, the healing skill, utility skills and elite skills can all be chosen depending on your profession(/race in WvWvW and PvE). Having only 10 skills at your disposal is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it is a good thing, it means you have to choose your 10 skills wisely.

Now, each profession has a bunch of different weapon skills, a few healing skills, a bunch of utilities and a handful of elites. Some of the skills available for us to choose from are vastly inferior to others, but that’s another topic I won’t delve into now. But what I don’t like about these skills you can choose from, is that they don’t have alot of depth added to them. Because of the simple nature of the game, the skills offer very simple outcomes, like only damage, or damage with one or more of the few conditions we have. Additionally, there is little to no disadvantage of blowing some cooldowns, as we don’t have any resource management, hence the spamming mentality of most players. There are a few skills that add unique debuffs or buffs, that differ from the other skills, like guardian greatsword #5 and warrior sword #4, elementalist dagger/fire #5 and necromancer death shroud #5.

On the other hand, I still think there should be some skills that are very simple. But what I’m trying to say is that GW2 needs more complex ones that add more depth to the game. The addition of Torment added a little more depth to the game, as it was a new unique debuff people had to pay attention to. Torment also helped a few condition specs in PvE where contributing to a fight is hard when the cap on burning, poison and bleeding has been reached. I think we need more conditions, but new skills to attach them to.

One could argue that adding more depth to the game makes it alot harder for new players to enjoy the game, as there is so much to learn about it. My counter-argument to that would be that complexity in a game adds more options to the players, more room to make mistakes, bigger difference between noob and pro, and it might improve the competetive scene(which in my opinion, is lacking at the moment). If you have played both Dota 2 and League of legends(these are MOBA games), you should have an idea of what depth means. And it sometimes involves more buttons to press, as well as knowing if the enemy has more buttons to press.

That was my thoughts on complex versus simple, but enough of my rambling. What are your thoughts on this matter? Are you for depth, or against it?

PS: Sorry if my english is rubbish, my native language is not English

I think 12 conditions is enough.

K.I.S.S

It can be applied to so many things…

As an elementalist I have 20 weapon skills at any given time plus my choice of 3 heals, 3 of 20 utilities (4 of which unlock 5 additional weapon skills each) and an elite skill.

It’s plenty complex, I almost dropped the profession when I was learning it because it was so complicated and I use to play the most complex class of them all in my last MMO. Seriously it doesn’t need anything more.

Why do people use “simplistic” and not “simple”.

The game already has enough complexity to make it interesting. Warriors could maybe use another mechanic, like 2 adrenaline skills (mainhand/offhand, or 2 for 2hers) but other than that, the game’s fine. What the game really needs is more breadth (more utility skills/weapons) and more depth (more interplay between abilities/boons/conditions, more build versatility).

Many weapon skills are actually defensive rather than offensive. The timing of these skills is important and it is not best to just spam them. If you do spam them you tend to do less damage than auto-attacks. This concept is entirely missing from the opening post. Mobility is also missing.

If we take the the ranger greatsword you get auto-attacks that can roll onwards for dps or you can be clever and time the evade. Skill #2 is high dps and that does want to be repeated. Skill #3 is a leap finisher that should be timed. Skill #4 is a block that should be timed. Skill #5 is an interrupt that should be timed.

The combat is indeed simple. As a result, it becomes redundant to the point where a subtle shift takes place. This shift where people are no longer playing for the fun of combat. Instead, everyone focuses on rewards, as if it’s the only reason to play.

It’s a huge problem that needs to be given attention.

Firstly, your English is outstanding, so you don’t need to worry there

Secondly, there’s a difference between ‘complexity’ and ‘depth’. Complexity is how many parts there are to that system, while Depth is how much you can get out of an individual part and how you arrange them. Complexity doesn’t necessarily add depth either; it kind of tags along as you add depth.

As well as this, the human brain can only process so many calculations per second. In a slower game such as GW and WoW, you have the time to think out your next move. Since GW2 is more based on twitch and reaction, is generally faster paced, and effects (such as Stuns) are generally shorter, you can’t have the same amount required thought processes per second.

However, that’s just semantics.

All in all, I agree.

In GW1, there were many skills that had additional effects based on what affects were on the target. For example, Elementalist’s had an Elite called Shatterstone, which applied a Water Hex for 3 seconds. From that, you could follow up with:

• Glowing Ice – As well as dealing damage, it restored X amount of Energy.
• Teinai’s Crystals – Would deal extra damage and apply Cracked Armour. Following the Cracked Armour application, you could follow up with any number of skills that utilized the Cracked Armour Effect. For example, Teinai’s Prison would apply a Health Degen effect, while Shock Arrow would return Energy.

Of course, there were longer lasting Water Hexes, such as Rust.

However, that seems to have been taken out in favour of Traits.

For example, the Warrior trait Distracting Strikes, which applies Confusion on interrupt. In GW1, that effect would have been tied into the skill usage.

Sorry for the typing mistake. What I meant was simple.

And I’m not talking against the fluid combat gw2 has with movement skills. Personally I like the dodging and all, even though it makes the game a bit more forgiving when it comes to positioning properly. I just feel like there is no drawback when using certain cooldowns. Just some, not all.

Sarrs.4831:

Why do people use “simplistic” and not “simple”.

The game already has enough complexity to make it interesting. Warriors could maybe use another mechanic, like 2 adrenaline skills (mainhand/offhand, or 2 for 2hers) but other than that, the game’s fine. What the game really needs is more breadth (more utility skills/weapons) and more depth (more interplay between abilities/boons/conditions, more build versatility).

The word simplistic has a derogatory connotation, whereas the word simple does not.

I agree that adding complexity is not necessary, but that adding breadth and depth — as you’ve defined them — would be desirable.

My biggest issues are with the weapon skills. In order for ANet to keep a tighter reign on player ingenuity, the weapon skills tend to tightly define how you play. That’s assuming you’re not just popping everything when it’s off CD. Other games have situational skills as well, but they offer more in the way of skill rotations across the board. D/D ele has a lot it can do in the way of rotations — D/F Necro is just 4, then 1 until dead, unless you need the situational snare, freeze or health siphon.

TheDaiBish.9735:

As well as this, the human brain can only process so many calculations per second. In a slower game such as GW and WoW, you have the time to think out your next move. Since GW2 is more based on twitch and reaction, is generally faster paced, and effects (such as Stuns) are generally shorter, you can’t have the same amount required thought processes per second.

This is probably the single most subtle change between GW1 & 2. Before, it was a tactics game based off of build effectiveness and party synergy. Now it’s an action game based on reaction time and some party synergy.

They are almost two different genres.

Simple games have more depth than complex ones and are generally more enjoyable(if we’re talking about PvP, OP just seems to want more variety in PvE). If this weren’t true then poker couldn’t be played for millions of dollars- it would be a shallow game. The global markets wouldn’t be worth trillions since they’re based on a “simple” concept: buy then sell to another buyer at a higher price. In reality, complexity tends to be the enemy of genius.

GW2’s system is designed to be completely different from GW1’s.

In GW1 combat complexity came from the skills themselves as the OP has pointed out but the combat itself was rather dull – you would even autofollow a target and keep hitting it.

GW2’s system takes away all the complexity from the skills and adds another layer of complexity in the general dynamic of the fight.
Positioning is now important – the Z axis is now important.
Dodging is now important – both inherent dodges and skills that offer dodges.
Skill interactions are now important.

I wouldn’t say the game is less complex – sure the skills are simpler but that’s because your attention in GW2 is designed to be elsewhere.
You’re not supposed to be looking at your skill bar but at the fight itself. In GW1 I would just look at my skill bar – in GW2 I must constantly be aware of my position, what’s coming at me, where my hits are going and so forth.

The system is different – it took me a while to adjust but I like it.
They shouldn’t necessarily add more complex skills but just add MORE skills that we can choose from.

GW1 had it right, go back to those mechanics..

I don’t think GW 1 combat was actually complex. What it had was way too many skills to choose from before you entered combat but once you did you only have the 8 skills on your keyboard (at least there were only 8 when I played GW 1) which made it very simple, in fact it was too simple because the energy system was such a terrible idea that it sometimes forced you to have to spend way too much time with boring autoattacks.

Just to clarify, I never played the original Guild Wars, nor do I want Guild Wars 2 to have similar mechanics. I love the Z-axis combat, dodging and the fact that movement is important. Guild Wars 1 was static, most people can agree on that.

To be fair, I don’t think anyone wanted the exact same combat mechanics as GW1 for this game. The mobility and fluidity of GW2 are awesome. But I would say that most expected that mobility to be part of the evolution of GW1 combat, and not a replacement of it.

Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with 2ndary classes? No.
Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with skill choice freedom? No.
Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with dedicated healers? No.
Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with energy management? No.

Why does everyone assume that the fluid combat of GW2 is incompatible with GW1 combat mechanics?