There are six gods and six dragons with remarkable amount of overlap on their spheres of influence.
Zhaitan, Elder Dragon of Death -> Grenth, God of Death
Mordremoth, Elder Dragon of Plants -> Melandru, God of Nature
Primordus, Elder Dragon of Fire -> Balthazar, God of Fire
Deep Sea Dragon of Water -> Lyssa, Goddess of Water
The last two are a bit more forced but similarities can be seen:
Krakatorrik, Elder Dragon of Crystal -> Kormir, God of Order
Jormag, Elder Dragon of Ice -> Dwayna, Goddess of Air
The gods disappearance coincided with the Elder Dragon’s return.
So what if the Gods ARE the Elder Dragons, or at the very least agents of them. Humans have been worshipping the Elder Dragons this whole time without realizing it!
This has been debunked thoroughly many times over the years on the lore forums especially, to the point it was even spoof debunked in game during the Hidden Arcana instance.
The theory has been argued. They share similarities. They share color schemes (to an extent, which would actually pair Lyssa with Kralk). Beyond that…who knows.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Further Edit:
Abaddon is the original god of Water, however, after his fall, she took over that ‘role’
“She is also considered to be related to chaos and non-specific elemental energy; she was only openly tied to water after the death of Abaddon in 1075 AE.”
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Lyssa was actually one of my lynchpins for the theory. She is dipicted as a twin goddess. The Deep Sea Dragon’s concept art shows it’s a two headed dragon.
There are so many similarities its really hard to not say that there must be some kind of connection even if they aren’t the same beings. Perhaps reverses of one another?
The book Dragon’s and Gods simply says that “There is not enough proof”, rather than debunking it entirely.
People said that Sylvari being dragon minions was “thoroughly debunked” and completely implausible because of such and such plot hole occurring if true…
…and look where we are today! :P
The book says there isn’t enough proof to prove it; conversely there is also not enough to disprove it either.
It’s hard to match the dragons and the god up directly. Especially when we start taking Abaddon and Dhuum into account, as well as the fact that what the gods currently represent has changed a bit over time.
If you take the original 6 gods and pair them with the dragons, they match up pretty well. It could be argued that maybe they aren’t intended to match up as say death → death though, instead as opposites death → life (ie: Zhaitan → Dwayna). Either way, its not a perfect match. Not without a heck of a lot more information.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
People said that Sylvari being dragon minions was “thoroughly debunked” and completely implausible because of such and such plot hole occurring if true…
…and look where we are today! :P
But those “debunked” arguments were not from in game source or just interpretation of in game events.
The “Dragons and Gods” book in the Hidden Arcana is pretty straightforward
Also, the Sylvari be dragon minion would be impossible without the Deus ex maquina of strong will blocks you from corruption.
Charter Vanguard [CV] – HoD Bardy Belzebuson – Ranger Sir Belzebu – Herald
(and the other 8 elite specs maxed too)
The book says there isn’t enough proof to prove it; conversely there is also not enough to disprove it either.
It’s hard to match the dragons and the god up directly. Especially when we start taking Abaddon and Dhuum into account, as well as the fact that what the gods currently represent has changed a bit over time.
If you take the original 6 gods and pair them with the dragons, they match up pretty well. It could be argued that maybe they aren’t intended to match up as say death -> death though, instead as opposites death -> life (ie: Zhaitan -> Dwayna). Either way, its not a perfect match. Not without a heck of a lot more information.
True, but without the devs coming out and telling us one way or the other (The book does not do that contrary to what people say, all it does is confirm that there is not enough evidence to form a fact) all we can do is theorize. To me there is enough evidence to support the theory so until I’m given more information to tip my opinion the other direction I’ll go on believing it just as others will go on believing the opposite. This post is just here for people to discuss it, or to bring awareness to others who haven’t made the connection.
The book says there isn’t enough proof to prove it; conversely there is also not enough to disprove it either.
It’s hard to match the dragons and the god up directly. Especially when we start taking Abaddon and Dhuum into account, as well as the fact that what the gods currently represent has changed a bit over time.
If you take the original 6 gods and pair them with the dragons, they match up pretty well. It could be argued that maybe they aren’t intended to match up as say death -> death though, instead as opposites death -> life (ie: Zhaitan -> Dwayna). Either way, its not a perfect match. Not without a heck of a lot more information.
True, but without the devs coming out and telling us one way or the other (The book does not do that contrary to what people say) all we can do is theorize. To me there is enough evidence to support the theory so until I’m given more information to tip my opinion the other direction I’ll go on believing it just as others will go on believing the opposite. This post is just here for people to discuss it, or to bring awareness to others who haven’t made the connection.
I agree with you. I do find it extremely coincidental that we suddenly have 6 dragons, and we happen to have 6 human gods. However, until we have more info, there isn’t anything more we can do than speculate.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
I think it’s more that there are patterns that things in Tyria naturally fall into, even with magic. The gods, the dragons, and even the player races are all subject to these patterns.
Six is simply a number that tends to turn up as a part of that pattern.
However, the devs may decide to change that, and toss out the idea behind it and give some other reason for it at some point in the future. After all, the sixth player race (Tengu) never made it in, so there’s a _ hole in that plan already. Going into the whole “pattern of six” idea would pretty much require them to become playable, and they may not want to do that now.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
Lyssa was actually one of my lynchpins for the theory. She is dipicted as a twin goddess. The Deep Sea Dragon’s concept art shows it’s a two headed dragon.
There are so many similarities its really hard to not say that there must be some kind of connection even if they aren’t the same beings. Perhaps reverses of one another?
The book Dragon’s and Gods simply says that “There is not enough proof”, rather than debunking it entirely.
As has been pointed out over the years, there are at least as many dissmilarities as similarities. At least half of the Gods do not match up. Kormir doesn’t match Kralk. Dwayna does not match Jormag for example.
The Dragons have existed on Tyria tens of thousands of years before the Gods arrived on Tyria and have been active at least twice before now and one of those was long before the Gods.
There are plenty of scriptures on the Gods. Who did know about the Dragons, so why isn’t there more scripture on the links as laid down by their disciples if a link existed?
The devs added that line as a joke. The fact they outright don’t dimiss it is part of the joke. It’s a fun speculation I admit, but one which doesn’t hold any water beyond there being 6 of them each.
I think it’s more that there are patterns that things in Tyria naturally fall into, even with magic. The gods, the dragons, and even the player races are all subject to these patterns.
Six is simply a number that tends to turn up as a part of that pattern.
However, the devs may decide to change that, and toss out the idea behind it and give some other reason for it at some point in the future. After all, the sixth player race (Tengu) never made it in, so there’s a[i] [/i]hole in that plan already. Going into the whole “pattern of six” idea would pretty much require them to become playable, and they may not want to do that now.
Im assuming with the player races you’re going back to the 5 dragons, 5 races thing from when the game was introd?
Like you said though, we could still get another dragon centric race. The Largos would fit quite well with Bubbles.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
ng back to the 5 dragons, 5 races thing from when the game was introd?
Like you said though, we could still get another dragon centric race. The Largos would fit quite well with Bubbles.
Kinda, yeah. From the beginning there were hints that there was one more dragon out there. If there had been six player races, then it would have created a pattern that also hinted at a sixth dragon.
The pattern is that power gets divided into six parts, by its nature. So now, instead of the pattern hinting at another dragon, it hints that we should have one more major race on our side.
I really really hope they don’t add the Largos, though. I don’t like them, but more importantly they’ll lose a lot of their ‘cool’ factor as mysterious assassins if they become a player race and we learn a lot more about them.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
ng back to the 5 dragons, 5 races thing from when the game was introd?
Like you said though, we could still get another dragon centric race. The Largos would fit quite well with Bubbles.
Kinda, yeah. From the beginning there were hints that there was one more dragon out there. If there had been six player races, then it would have created a pattern that also hinted at a sixth dragon.
The pattern is that power gets divided into six parts, by its nature. So now, instead of the pattern hinting at another dragon, it hints that we should have one more major race on our side.
I really really hope they don’t add the Largos, though. I don’t like them, but more importantly they’ll lose a lot of their ‘cool’ factor as mysterious assassins if they become a player race and we learn a lot more about them.
Learning more about them wouldnt be a bad thing though. But Tengu wouldnt really fit for a water based dragon. At least I don’t think they would. Right now, we have races that can match decently with the dragons:
Remember, the dragons existed prior to some of those races (eg humans). So you’d need to match them to the races around during previous rises to make that connection work as well. I cannot remember if 6 races existed previously that were involved directly in the battle – Im sure someone else can recall that info though.
I personally don’t hold much stock in the Dragons -> Races thing. The races all just live in different regions of Tyria so naturally there would be a Race living near where a Dragon is.
But I am totally fixated on the Dragons -> Gods thing. Two headed Bubbles and twin Dwayna are just too coincidental to ignore to me, among other things.
Remember, the dragons existed prior to some of those races (eg humans). So you’d need to match them to the races around during previous rises to make that connection work as well. I cannot remember if 6 races existed previously that were involved directly in the battle – Im sure someone else can recall that info though.
I want to say we’ve had 5 named, but I can only come up with 4 off the top of my head. The Jotun, the Seers, the Mursaat, and the Forgotten. Its been a while since Ive gone digging through the lore. I don’t think anything matches up perfectly, but we have a lot of holes in the lore still too. (What I wouldn’t give to go pick a few brains at Anet)
Edit: Oh, the dwarves. Wow I’m out of it today…
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
In my opinion the Cipher quests and final part “Path of revelations” from GW1’s Eye of the North expansion pack, were hinting at what has/is/will be going on with the gods and these dragons.
In my opinion the Cipher quests and final part “Path of revelations” were hinting at something about what’s going on with the gods and these dragons.
The same facets from Glint’s Lair. Yeah, each one of them was tied to a god, but they were referred to diffently. Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength (each tied to not only a god, but also a base class).
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
In my opinion the Cipher quests and final part “Path of revelations” were hinting at something about what’s going on with the gods and these dragons.
The same facets from Glint’s Lair. Yeah, each one of them was tied to a god, but they were referred to diffently. Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength (each tied to not only a god, but also a base class).
The most interesting part to me was Kerrsh’s analysis, and his working theory throughout the quests. It seemed to hint that a part of teh eternal alchemy involved power transference. So maybe gods were not always gods, and someday a new pantheon will emerge.
I’m sure the inquest would know more about all this than I would.
In my opinion the Cipher quests and final part “Path of revelations” were hinting at something about what’s going on with the gods and these dragons.
The same facets from Glint’s Lair. Yeah, each one of them was tied to a god, but they were referred to diffently. Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength (each tied to not only a god, but also a base class).
The most interesting part to me was Kerrsh’s analysis, and his working theory throughout the quests. It seemed to hint that a part of teh eternal alchemy involved power transference. So maybe gods were not always gods, and someday a new pantheon will emerge.
I’m sure the inquest would know more about all this than I would.
I think the biggest plot hole (if you will) with the dragon / gods theory is that from the lore we have, the dragons have always been a part of Tyria while the human gods came from ‘elsewhere.’ The issue here is that we don’t know what or where that ‘elsewhere’ is. They could be truly alien, which could debunk the theory.Or they could all be part of some greater whole of which we have no knowledge, offshoots (facets) of a greater power. Or they could be some sort of kin, like calling to like so to speak. Who knows.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
In my opinion the Cipher quests and final part “Path of revelations” were hinting at something about what’s going on with the gods and these dragons.
The same facets from Glint’s Lair. Yeah, each one of them was tied to a god, but they were referred to diffently. Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength (each tied to not only a god, but also a base class).
The most interesting part to me was Kerrsh’s analysis, and his working theory throughout the quests. It seemed to hint that a part of teh eternal alchemy involved power transference. So maybe gods were not always gods, and someday a new pantheon will emerge.
I’m sure the inquest would know more about all this than I would.
I think the biggest plot hole (if you will) with the dragon / gods theory is that from the lore we have, the dragons have always been a part of Tyria while the human gods came from ‘elsewhere.’ The issue here is that we don’t know what or where that ‘elsewhere’ is. They could be truly alien, which could debunk the theory.Or they could all be part of some greater whole of which we have no knowledge, offshoots (facets) of a greater power. Or they could be some sort of kin, like calling to like so to speak. Who knows.
There’s room to speculate which makes it fun. I have theories and such. One being that Tyia is a bubble of reality within the mists. And the mists could be thought of as a quantum state.
Gods emerging into tyria and dragons already existing in tyria, would not exclude power transference and the creation of gods. I’m really not sure I’m making my thoughts clear as the responses I’m getting seem odd.
Further Edit:
Abaddon is the original god of Water, however, after his fall, she took over that ‘role’
“She is also considered to be related to chaos and non-specific elemental energy; she was only openly tied to water after the death of Abaddon in 1075 AE.”
I think the biggest plot hole (if you will) with the dragon / gods theory is that from the lore we have, the dragons have always been a part of Tyria while the human gods came from ‘elsewhere.’ The issue here is that we don’t know what or where that ‘elsewhere’ is. They could be truly alien, which could debunk the theory.Or they could all be part of some greater whole of which we have no knowledge, offshoots (facets) of a greater power. Or they could be some sort of kin, like calling to like so to speak. Who knows.
Honestly I dont consider this a plot hole at all, in fact I see it as evidence that they ARE coming form the Dragons if not the Dragons themselves.
Remember that Humans have not been around long, and the Gods and Humans arrived at the exact same time. So I believe that the Gods are Personas created by the Dragons as a means to keep the Humans in check and to manipulate them, since humans were discovered to be very impressionable and prone to worship.
Maybe the dragons are the gods’ pets, but the gods go on vacation and don’t feed them sometimes and they get hungry. And then boom, elder dragon shows up.
And the gods are all like, “Urgh, what is this about Tyria being ravaged? I’m on vacation, just send an emissary or something, for god’s sake.”
I personally don’t hold much stock in the Dragons -> Races thing. The races all just live in different regions of Tyria so naturally there would be a Race living near where a Dragon is.
But I am totally fixated on the Dragons -> Gods thing. Two headed Bubbles and twin Dwayna are just too coincidental to ignore to me, among other things.
Also which concept art are you referring to? Most of the older concept art refer to models which are inaccurate. Eg mordremoth and zhaitan look very different to the concept drawings. The latest (presumed) concept of what could be bubbles has 3 heads. I believe there is also one headed concept art.
Learning more about them wouldnt be a bad thing though. But Tengu wouldnt really fit for a water based dragon. At least I don’t think they would. Right now, we have races that can match decently with the dragons:
