Guild Wars 2

I don’t understand this, all games desired players to keep playing repeatedly, whats so different between GW2 and whatever games?

No matter what mastery is, it is a system to keep players to stay in the game as long as possible. Most games release harder contents and require us to gain new gears, while mastery are there to make us play the game.

Don’t you buy the game to play? At least we are not required to make new gear, i will say it is a fair trade. Why? Try think about it, if new tier of gear release and we have to make new gears. Gear are not the only elements that worry most players, many of us need transmute charge, black lion salvage kit or even upgrade extractor in order to upgrade their gears (and looks), thats does cost a lot.

With mastery, yes, we may be locked away from some content, but eventually it will be unlocked by playing normally. What do we mean playing normally? Anything that gain experience in new map or existing map. Is that really a grind? Maybe or may not, its all depends.

But it is dump, if playing the game normally is grind, why do you even buy a game if you are not going to play the game normally?

Vayne.8563:

Hot isn’t going to change that drastically before it’s released. That kind of change would set the game back months if not years. It’s never going to happen. Anet is talking about it and showing it. If this is how it pans out, then your words at this point won’t change it.

But my Eye of the North example STILL applies. You couldn’t do the Deldrimor story until you did the other 3. It was gated at max level.

Even the Living Story within each chapter right now is gated.

This might very well be a type of progression that’s linear, rather than what you’re implying it is. That is to say it’s easy to get the stuff you need to do it, but you have to make choices about where you want to go first.

Getting people up in arms when it’s not out yet, and when it’s not going to change anyway at this late date, I repeat, pointless.

What you’re really saying here, if it’s this then it’s bad. Maybe. But we won’t know until we see it, and when we see it it’s too late.

Yes, we will see. If PS is gating PS, that’s fine and makes sense: it’s linear. Don’t want it? Ignore till a year after, grab that vista instead and unlock a mastery point. But if it’s PS that gates masteries that gate open-world content which my friends play, that’s not the GW2 I got attracted to. So the question is in the balance they put in it.

Bubi.7942:

You said you are a PvE player, and don’t like WvW, right? I wonder, what do you do in PvE? I mean, the game has been out for 2 and a half years, is there any cnew content left for you to do that’s not repetative? Is there any content you do that’s not granting you XP (I can think of 2 activities as such, one being chatting in LA, the other flipping the TP)?

Lately I participate in the guild Teq spawn and run a lvl 50/49 fractal with guildies since I find it the most fun. If I have time, I run another tier of fractals. What I want to also run if I do have more time is CoE and SE for skins and collections. Unfortunately, I just learned that I need 2000 more crests than I expected for the luminescent title, so it’s ~4000 left now, and I’m stuck doing SW daily instead of the stuff I like. When the char slots go on sale, I’ll grab a couple more and make a couple more alts for cosplay/dress-up which I enjoy, and will level them and grind for skins.

Bubi.7942:

Just wondering what can you do that does not progress your masteries, which btw are still not out, and you know nothing about progression. Yes, it is possible that the new area is gonna be a 2 square meter place with 1 mob that you have to kill over and over. But let’s face it, that’s unlikely, like winning the lottery.

Feel free to ride your phobia train though, if that’s what floats your boat.

Btw, can you recommend a better solution to – anything you do gets you points?

However… you’re missing the point and confusing “leveling masteries” and “unlocking masteries” which require the “mastery points”.

• Firstly, I have to do specific content in HoT to unlock the masteries.
• Then, I have to grind the levels in the masteries in HoT, since they’re locking me from other content in HoT. That means that I can’t play the content I want until I grind enough, regardless of whether I find it fun or not.
• While what we had now in GW2 didn’t gate any content, except for PS which gated PS and fractals which gate higher tiers of fractals.

Bubi.7942:

Btw, can you recommend a better solution to – anything you do gets you points?

• Let us choose masteries without “unlocking” them at all, just like PvP reward tracks.
• Do not gate content itself behind mastery levels. Instead, gate optional content hardness, like in Fractals.
• Make initial progression easily attainable, make further progression barely noticeable and worth it only for completionists.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• The already existing zones (“core GW2”) will have their own masteries. To get HoT masteries, you’ll have to grind HoT.
• You will only get masteries retroactively for the already existing zones, not HoT. Everyone will grind HoT, no exceptions.

Do you have a source on this one ? The way you talk about it, you make it sound like a glorified trait aquisition system like the one we already have.

I don’t think masteries will be implemented this way. I’d rather think it will look like the WvW ranks points but in PvE. You earn points by doing PvE tasks (like jumping puzles or map completion) that reward MP and you spend these points in whatever category you prefer, just like in WvW.

Ofc this is pure speculation from me so I’ll say wait and see.

VodCom.6924:

Lishtenbird.2814:

• The already existing zones (“core GW2”) will have their own masteries. To get HoT masteries, you’ll have to grind HoT.
• You will only get masteries retroactively for the already existing zones, not HoT. Everyone will grind HoT, no exceptions.

Do you have a source on this one ? The way you talk about it, you make it sound like a glorified trait aquisition system like the one we already have.

I don’t think masteries will be implemented this way. I’d rather think it will look like the WvW ranks points but in PvE. You earn points by doing PvE tasks (like jumping puzles or map completion) that reward MP and you spend these points in whatever category you prefer, just like in WvW.

Ofc this is pure speculation from me so I’ll say wait and see.

From the blog:

Each Mastery track is tied to a region of Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region. With the launch of Heart of Thorns, there will be two Mastery regions: the Heart of Maguuma, encompassing all PvE zones that are part of the Heart of Thorns expansion, and the core Guild Wars 2 world, encompassing all PvE zones currently available in the game today. Since Mastery tracks can only be trained in their respective regions, the Mastery training bar will automatically change the Mastery track slotted when you change regions, reverting to the last Mastery track you had selected for that region. Some Mastery points will come from content that existing players may have already completed, and these Mastery points will be automatically awarded to you with the release of Heart of Thorns, allowing you to get started on your Mastery journey right away.

Lishtenbird.2814:

VodCom.6924:

Lishtenbird.2814:

• The already existing zones (“core GW2”) will have their own masteries. To get HoT masteries, you’ll have to grind HoT.
• You will only get masteries retroactively for the already existing zones, not HoT. Everyone will grind HoT, no exceptions.

Do you have a source on this one ? The way you talk about it, you make it sound like a glorified trait aquisition system like the one we already have.

I don’t think masteries will be implemented this way. I’d rather think it will look like the WvW ranks points but in PvE. You earn points by doing PvE tasks (like jumping puzles or map completion) that reward MP and you spend these points in whatever category you prefer, just like in WvW.

Ofc this is pure speculation from me so I’ll say wait and see.

From the blog:

Touché.

However if I understand the part you quoted it means you can do a few tasks in HoT beginning zones to unlock exploration masteries tracks allowing you to quickly move on.

I don’t think you’ll need 100% exploration of the 1st zone to unlock the 2nd one and do the same to unlock the 3rd one etc.

And if you are in a party you can have a hangliding mesmer ferrying ppl with combat masteries to escort him.

Lishtenbird.2814:

However… you’re missing the point and confusing “leveling masteries” and “unlocking masteries” which require the “mastery points”.

• Firstly, I have to do specific content in HoT to unlock the masteries.

The non-HoT masteries are unlocked outside HoT, where you “level them”

• Then, I have to grind the levels in the masteries in HoT, since they’re locking me from other content in HoT. That means that I can’t play the content I want until I grind enough, regardless of whether I find it fun or not.

And this is exactly what people were asking for, more meaningful character progression, and Anet delivered. The difference between Gear and Skill grind is that Gear would be used in older content too, Masteries cannot be used in older content at all so it’s a superior system.

• While what we had now in GW2 didn’t gate any content, except for PS which gated PS and fractals which gate higher tiers of fractals.

And now HoT will gate further progression in HoT until you get some masteries. Why is that so terrible?

Bubi.7942:

Btw, can you recommend a better solution to – anything you do gets you points?

• Let us choose masteries without “unlocking” them at all, just like PvP reward tracks.
  [/quote]

So you want to farm something to death, in order to get your Mastery, instead of doing specific content? Like how people were farming CoF P1 for hours each day in order to get the gold to get what they wanted instead of doing anything else in the game? Masteries can be a very good way in “forcing” players to not choose the most optimal (gold-wise) path. Either farm your mindless farms or do something different to get them. win-win for me.

• Do not gate content itself behind mastery levels. Instead, gate optional content hardness, like in Fractals.

With the way masteries work, giving you brand new abilities, wouldn’t make any sense to work this way.

• Make initial progression easily attainable, make further progression barely noticeable and worth it only for completionists.

So, after a sort while we will be like: “LF Gliding mastery 10+” posts where people without the “max” mastery will be ignored anyway? Assuming of course their “hard content” isn’t some open world non-sense of course.

We don’t even know how much “farm” you will actually have to do (time – wise) and since they are account bound I see no reason for this.

Let’s see, if you’ve played a game like Assassin’s Creed or Tomb Raider, there are places you can’t reach at first because you lack a specific item or skill. Later on, you get those and you can progress in ways you couldn’t before. From what I read, Masteries work that way too and I find no problem with it. The only question is how “grindy” they are going to be.

It reads to me like there are several things you can do, but you have to choose which you want to do, in the order you want to do them. I don’t have a problem with this.

For example, if you put points into lore and get some new area you explore, then you haven’t put points into hang gliding and you can’t get to those areas.

There is a down side of course. It’s the same down side you have when someone wants to run a story mode mission with you and you’re not up to their story.

But I’m not really sure how a game can progress with no choices and a game without those choices is poorer for it in my opinion.

Vayne.8563:

It reads to me like there are several things you can do, but you have to choose which you want to do, in the order you want to do them. I don’t have a problem with this.

For example, if you put points into lore and get some new area you explore, then you haven’t put points into hang gliding and you can’t get to those areas.

That’s my understanding of it. In the end, you’ll complete all the masteries. All you do in the meantime is picking what type of content you want to experience first.

Lishtenbird.2814:

However… you’re missing the point and confusing “leveling masteries” and “unlocking masteries” which require the “mastery points”.

Not really, I just assumed that doing a specific thing once does not fit into the definition of grind, but it seems for some people it does. Well… we’re not really talking about the same thing here then, if that’s grind for you, I wonder what isn’t?

You next point is that you have to grind levels? Really? From what you described it seems to me you are already doing that. Or is there some secret way of not accepting XP from Fractals/Teq?

Lishtenbird.2814:

• Let us choose masteries without “unlocking” them at all, just like PvP reward tracks.
• Do not gate content itself behind mastery levels. Instead, gate optional content hardness, like in Fractals.
• Make initial progression easily attainable, make further progression barely noticeable and worth it only for completionists.

- Your first suggestion actually results in people not exploring the area and grinding the same well-known content over and over. No thanks.
- It’s gated the same way as levels were in the original Guild Wars 2. If you are not level80, you should not go to Orr. Where’s the problem?
- You have no idea (nor do I) as how this is going to work

Every game needs progression. GW2 has progression but they felt they could do more, i.e masteries. It seems very open to me, it all depends on the MP’s needed to unlock and the XP to unlock. But even then, I want it to be ‘meaningful’ (=grind for about everyone on these forums :/), I don’t want it to be done in 2 days.

Would you prefer 10 more levels, which means nothing in gw2.
Would you prefer more stats, which seems pretty boring to me.
Or would you rather have something tangible, i.e. masteries (atm they look tangible, could be that there are more shallow masteries though).

Lishtenbird.2814:

Each Mastery track is tied to a region of Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region. With the launch of Heart of Thorns, there will be two Mastery regions: the Heart of Maguuma, encompassing all PvE zones that are part of the Heart of Thorns expansion, and the core Guild Wars 2 world, encompassing all PvE zones currently available in the game today. Since Mastery tracks can only be trained in their respective regions, the Mastery training bar will automatically change the Mastery track slotted when you change regions, reverting to the last Mastery track you had selected for that region. Some Mastery points will come from content that existing players may have already completed, and these Mastery points will be automatically awarded to you with the release of Heart of Thorns, allowing you to get started on your Mastery journey right away.

Interesting. Wonder if that will all but kill the old zones, other than daily requirements and new players, for good.

What’s a little grind when one is hang gliding in a jungle?

As previously noted, upon reading the most recent revelations, I didst commence to feel a growing sense of unease, derived in no small part to comparisons made to those regions known as Dry Top and the Silverwastes, which were not what I’d hoped for in terms of new content, but which were easily avoided due to their relatively small scope.

Alas! If the expansion, however, is truly designed in the image of these regions, as the information presented by the creators suggests, then I am facing a future in which the content which has kept me coming back, that is, the old, original content, or rather, what remains of it still unsullied by revamps and new player experiences and redesigns, shall become so old and worn out that the fun becomes unsustainable, and my characters, one by one, shall slip into darkness, like the last few fish gasping for breath in the oxygen-depleted atmosphere of an aquarium three to four days after the filtration system has failed.

Grind? Grind! Shall we scramble to maintain reputation with the vendors and givers of quests in these new Outposts, or shall it be thus, that once earned, the fun-giving reputation remains intact, available to be drawn upon at will?

Grind? Grind! As we strive to master the nuances and subtleties of a new language, thereby to avail ourselves of more new things, shall we make progress like unto the proverbial tortoise, or his vaunted counterpart?

Grind? Grind! Jumping puzzles, rendered adventurous by the addition of limitations of time! My heart leaps. It bounds. It glides. It then smacks into the bole of a tree and sinks to the roots of the jungle and withers.

Grind? Zerg! A core principle: the belief that playing with others makes a better experience. This evening just past, I didst partake in that form of content known unto us by the title of ‘Dailies’, and ventured forth into Snowden Drifts in search of what proved to be rather elusive region-specific ‘events’. Eventually, indeed, did I find sufficient to satisfy the requirements — after over an hour of fruitless ‘waypointing’ hither and yon about the landscape, most often to find that the event in which I sought to participate had been trampled under foot by the horde of others playing alongside me, making my experience better in a manner most mega. Yea, verily, this core principle inspires such confidence and zeal that I am almost undone just thinking of it.

Friends, all snark aside, in light of our past, I doth indeed fear for our future. Glide, glide, glide through the jungle — watch out for that tree!

gear grind in expansions makes current hard earnt gear invalid as u just keep upgrading gear over and over, like World Of Warcraft and its raiding systems and every 6 months new gear is added forcing u to upgrade to be able to play the new content.
this is called vertical progression

skill grind in expansions allows current gear to remain current and lets u improve your character in other aspects of the game that are commonly used by all PVE players , allowing every one to play all content with out the need for new gear while getting more powerfull from just playing the game in a normal way.
this is called horizontal progression

having played WoW for 10 years I am fed up of having to regrind gear over and over and over just to keep up. it also meens u cant take a break if u are in a progressive guild. Then an expansion comes along and we gain more lvls and no one plays some of the best raids ever created in the game .
( uldaur Icecrown Citidel Black temple Sunwell all now just a single player grind zone for max lvl players when before it required 25 players to beat it just a few years ago)

so when a system is in place where we get expansions stay the same level and keep the Best In Slot gear ( BiS) and then gain new skills / abilitys that can be upgraded over time and keeps all content in the game current e.g exp dungeons and fractals / open world bosses I welcome it

so please stop asking for gear progression its not going to happen. ascended gear is the highest tier of gear and it will most likely be that way till the game shuts down.

guild wars 1 never increased its lvl cap in either the expansion or its storys they added (eye of the north was the “expansion” the rest was just another story to be told with content added) and that worked extremely well.

who cares if “other” mmos add new lvls and new higher shiny gear, that’s the only thing they are able to offer, if u took away the raids from WoW the pve content would be so lack luster so empty so bad no one would play it. the open world content is so dull so dry so bad it wouldn’t keep players for more then a few days

krixis.9538:

gear grind in expansions makes current hard earnt gear invalid as u just keep upgrading gear over and over, like World Of Warcraft and its raiding systems and every 6 months new gear is added forcing u to upgrade to be able to play the new content.
this is called vertical progression

skill grind in expansions allows current gear to remain current and lets u improve your character in other aspects of the game that are commonly used by all PVE players , allowing every one to play all content with out the need for new gear while getting more powerfull from just playing the game in a normal way.
this is called horizontal progression

Also, one more thing. Players who don’t buy HoT but get the next expansion won’t be at a disadvantage at the new zones. Maguuma Masteries will function in the new zones only, so it stands to reason that any new masteries they add for ANY expansion will offer advantages in that particular part of the game and not everywhere.

maddoctor.2738:

krixis.9538:

gear grind in expansions makes current hard earnt gear invalid as u just keep upgrading gear over and over, like World Of Warcraft and its raiding systems and every 6 months new gear is added forcing u to upgrade to be able to play the new content.
this is called vertical progression

skill grind in expansions allows current gear to remain current and lets u improve your character in other aspects of the game that are commonly used by all PVE players , allowing every one to play all content with out the need for new gear while getting more powerfull from just playing the game in a normal way.
this is called horizontal progression

Also, one more thing. Players who don’t buy HoT but get the next expansion won’t be at a disadvantage at the new zones. Maguuma Masteries will function in the new zones only, so it stands to reason that any new masteries they add for ANY expansion will offer advantages in that particular part of the game and not everywhere.

they did say they will have core mastery as well though, so there will be core bonuses as well

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Jerus.4350:

I can very much get behind that last sentence. I just really don’t want to have GW2 turn into the same feeling I get in other MMOs where it’s like “kitten… I can’t even do this because I took a couple months off and now I’m behind a months work in older content people aren’t doing as often” That’s my fear and why the entire idea of vertical progression annoys me, because again that’s one of the big things I love about this game is the escape from that.

This is horizontal progression, as horizontal as creating a vertical progression graphic then asking people to lie down on their side and watch it again.
Well anyway we still don’t know how much time it will be required to collect points, but when they said they see this system as a long term goal I can’t help worrying about it.

See I don’t get this. What is worrying about something taking a long time.

People play MMOs to be there a long time. If there are no long term goals, then people stop playing. Not all people but enough people. If enough people stop playing, there is no MMO and you have to find another one.

All any MMO ever is is a list of things to do. Guild Wars 1 was even like that. Once there’s nothing left to do, people leave.

You stay with or leave an MMO based on how much you like the list of things to do.

That’s the beauty of GW2 currently though. If I had quit 6 months ago and came back today the only thing I could be missing are some styles, no functional power. So I could hop in and play with my friends on whatever they are working on without having to jump through hoops first.

I tried dabbling in one of my other games a little bit back, I simply couldn’t care enough to spend a month farming to catch up.

Of course the devil’s in the details, we’ll see what these mastery’s have in store. But artificially locking content through months of farming… what happened to the “this game isn’t grindy”, at least we now know why they emphasized that so much in their presentation, they knew they were going to get called out on it.

Mike O’Brien
Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

“ …if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars"

GW1 did it successfully and if it is a wasteland now it’s because of GW2 and the fact that no new CONTENT (not grind) is added.

You could grind ranks to enhance a little bit some of your skills, but in no way that was required by the game, you could form your party and complete whatever content you wanted with your own not copypasta builds.

Excluding ascended gears + fractals (almost a failure system considering how many lfg for fractals you can find compared to dungeons), Guild Wars 2 didn’t force you to grind to be able to experience the real challenges.

Well to be honest, SAB2 did and thus (combined with the horrible lag at that time plus the almost p2w token) had a huge loss of participants and Queen’s Jubilee too required you to grind for tokens before you could access to the real challenges, but at least those two game modes are not permanent contents.

Anyway we still don’t know if this new system will split the population just like AR splits the fractals audience. I deeply hope this will be not the case.

Most of the skills shown are crap anyways. Gliders are just a worse version of a flying mount, heck you can’t even use it anywhere outside of the new map. Learning language of the natives? HAHAHA so useful, not.

Blaeys.3102:

I think there is a common misconception here – Having a goal to work toward is not the same as grinding.

Grinding involves doing the same thing over and over past the point we find that thing fun. We dont know what masteries will involve specifically, so we cannot say that we will be repeating mundane tasks we dont enjoy over and over for them.

If they take all goals out of the game, we arent really left with a game. Again, working toward a goal does not mean the same thing as grinding.

Too true, Blaeys. Unfortunately it still falls short with a lot of people because they desire instant gratification. Whether its an in game goal or something else — there are usually a few predictable reactions along the way.

- Those that enjoy the journey.
- Those that dislike what they’re doing but want to meet that goal so badly that they trudge along.
- Those that rage and/or quit.

I’m afraid that will always be a constant.

Bubi, I’m tired of you not following what we write. I will stop here since I assume that you either won’t even after thorough explanations, or simply don’t want to.

Azhure.1857:

Too true, Blaeys. Unfortunately it still falls short with a lot of people because they desire instant gratification. Whether its an in game goal or something else — there are usually a few predictable reactions along the way.

- Those that enjoy the journey.
- Those that dislike what they’re doing but want to meet that goal so badly that they trudge along.
- Those that rage and/or quit.

I’m afraid that will always be a constant.

There are also

• Those that enjoy a fast comfortable travel and then a thorough, unrestricted, your-own-pace exploration, both solo and with friends.

That was what GW2 was initially about. Yes, climbing a hill or looking for the best bistro did take time, but that was fun and took place after the long tedious journey which wasn’t fun.

maddoctor.2738:

And this is exactly what people were asking for, more meaningful character progression, and Anet delivered. The difference between Gear and Skill grind is that Gear would be used in older content too, Masteries cannot be used in older content at all so it’s a superior system.

Please define “people”. “People” have also asked for dueling, open world PvP, mounts, player housing, marriage, flying, DPS meter, gearcheck and whatever they’d seen in other different MMOs which I’m somewhy not playing. I for one ignored the progression discussions since I simply want more content, and next to no progression.

maddoctor.2738:

So you want to farm something to death, in order to get your Mastery, instead of doing specific content? Like how people were farming CoF P1 for hours each day in order to get the gold to get what they wanted instead of doing anything else in the game? Masteries can be a very good way in “forcing” players to not choose the most optimal (gold-wise) path. Either farm your mindless farms or do something different to get them. win-win for me.

Between farming what I like to death and doing specific things I don’t like, yes, I choose farming. Just like all those people who have begged for the Mists Stone to be sold for something else than relics, WvW not being in the map completion list, RNG rewards not being account bound, and so on.

maddoctor.2738:

• Make initial progression easily attainable, make further progression barely noticeable and worth it only for completionists.

So, after a sort while we will be like: “LF Gliding mastery 10+” posts where people without the “max” mastery will be ignored anyway?

It’s the complete opposite. If, say, Gliding 5 is enough for most players and is acquired naturally in an evening of play, you won’t get those LFG. If Gliding 10 is required or 95% players will fail and they have to grind for it for a month and most likely a little portion of players will get, than… surprise!

maddoctor.2738:

Let’s see, if you’ve played a game like Assassin’s Creed or Tomb Raider, there are places you can’t reach at first because you lack a specific item or skill. Later on, you get those and you can progress in ways you couldn’t before. From what I read, Masteries work that way too and I find no problem with it. The only question is how “grindy” they are going to be.

I’ve dropped most linear solo games recently. “Progression” is not exciting for me, I’m not a kid. That’s why I went for GW2, which is incidentally also an MMO.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Excluding ascended gears + fractals (almost a failure system considering how many lfg for fractals you can find compared to dungeons),

That’s a misconception. High-level fractals are more often played with premades because they require a higher skill level, and you can’t be sure with pugs. That’s why we usually go like this:

1. check friends,
2. check guild chat,
3. check people from contact list and fractal guilds,
4. consider whether you should post an LFG or cancel the run for now.

Sorry what is there to follow? You are just repeating yourself over and over.

Mastery aquire is grindy -> No, you do it once
Mastery leveling is grindy -> No, you can do it however you like

We’re done, it’s that simple. It seems to me you are talking about gating, not grinding, about which you (or I) have no idea about how gated it will be.

So again, this whole thread is moot.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I’ve dropped most linear solo games recently. “Progression” is not exciting for me, I’m not a kid. That’s why I went for GW2, which is incidentally also an MMORPG.

Gotta love that you picked up an RPG thinking there’s gonna be no progression.